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[Miles708]

TL;DR: I can't understand numbers, or RPGs, or life. It's also 1:00 AM. And Bloodborne is a good game.

Long version:

I was playing Bloodborne (I'm around the final levels i think) when out of nowhere it suddenly occured to me that... even if I played games for most of my life, I've never really understood the philsophy behind level-up mechanics in games.

I mean, I get it from a gameplay standpoint: become stronger as you go on.
That's cool. Makes sense. We'll keep that.

From a broader game design point of view, anyway, I can't really wrap my head around this concept.
Take Bloodborne, for example (or any Soulsborne game... we could maybe extend this idea to most RPGs even): most of the game is spent leveling up. As you become stronger, you can face thougher and thougher enemies.
That apparently simple mechanic opens a couple of points that don't really convince me:

1. There is exploration, but an "optimal path" exists to tackle every area of the game in a specific order. Actually, you're deeply encouraged to find and follow that path.
   If you mess up that order, you will end up with a series of difficulty spikes first, and boring/braindead areas later; that means it's your own interest to explore every area in a particular order, despite the apparent freedom of exploration (I use Bloodborne as example, but could also be The Witcher 3, or many others semi-open world rpgs).
   
   
2. Even when following the ideal "optimal path", the primary concern is leveling up your stats/gear.
   Except in reality you're never getting stronger. Your progress is constantly negated by the thougher enemies (both new ones, and more powerful old ones) so you actually end up chasing the "right" difficulty balance, where the game is meant to be played on. The game had this balance at the start, but it's promptly taken away to make space for the leveling up.

Now, Bloodborne is a great game, but I can't shake the feeling this is mostly a waste of time, and an avoidable gate to the game's content.

It's also not a matter of difficulty.
I'll take Ninja Gaiden (Xbox, Xbox 360) as a counter-example: you got the exploration, the backtracking and the challenge. Just like Bloodborne.
What's different are the 2 points from before:

1. The game doesn't have experience levels, that means all enemies are deadly, but also beatable, at all times.
2. The exploration is more limited, but again what's the point of exploring when you're punished for straying from the intended level order?

I had the same perplexities with The Witcher 3: I would often encounter unprompted over-leveled enemies in the open world, or trigger unbeatable side-quests. That was the game telling me to go back to another area of the map, spend some time there, and come back only after grinding some more. So much for the exploration.

If the point of leveling-up in games is to chase the correct balance between your DEF stat and your enemies' ATK stat, to make the game playable/enjoable, why can't I just have this balance all the time?
What is there to gain, for me as a player, with a leveling system?

I guess I never really understood RPGs.

 

[Hendrick's]

We all need a carrot.

 

[CitizenX3639]

I have found a lot of RPGs today are so loaded with stats the games are basically broken. The numerous weapons, add ons, passives, etc almost mean nothing. As an example in DS I played through the game naked, only wearing a hat and used the first wepon i came across. It was tough, but i never found it unbearable. The surge is another favorite, that it doesnt matter gear, weapon, etc. if you get hit you will likely die. The Division is another where you can level to do one thing, become a so OP the game is a joke.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

It's also the same with weapon ups in SHMUPS.
I am designing a SHMUP right now, and the levels are kind of impossible with the start weapon but kind of easy with full weaponry.
It's hard to strike the right balance.

But you are suspposed to have a weapon up system.

 

[Neff]

It's organic, and it's what you make it.

The fact that you can make life easy for yourself with a little observation, investment and luck, is what makes it satisfying. Likewise, gambling on the wrong direction, weapon, element, accessory or stat and making life hard for yourself makes those good choices all the sweeter.

 

[Mexen]

I was pretty far in the game when I realized it was just Fashionborne.

How about Zelda games, take BotW, or to some extent Sekiro... where you the player actually get better more than your character 'levels' up

 

[Griffon]

Totally agree with you OP.

Leveling mechanic are often superfluous and often lead to screwed up difficulty curves (in Bloodborne is easy to screw yourself if you don't put enough points in the right stats).

And then you have some games that end up using enemy scaling for every area. Nullifying it completely... At that stage what's the point?!

 

[w92kp]

If the point of leveling-up in games is to chase the correct balance between your DEF stat and your enemies' ATK stat, to make the game playable/enjoable, why can't I just have this balance all the time?
What is there to gain, for me as a player, with a leveling system?

This is the same conclusion I came to regarding leveling systems. There's just no benefit if you don't care about making your numbers get big. It just feels like a problem that can be side stepped entirely to save developers a whole bunch of time.

 

[kiphalfton]

Every character in Dragon Ball Z supports this message.

 

[hunthunt]

I have played every Dark Souls, Sekiro, and Bloodborne (which I platinumed) is my favourite game from the last 5 years.

I hate stats and never wasted more than a couple of minutes in my gameplay sessions in that shit.

I may play it wrong, but I enjoy them like a mf

 

[Gargus]

Leveling up in a crucial point in a lot of games. It gives you a sense of accomplishment, something more to fight for and look forward to, it unlocks new things instead of just handing it all to you right away, it allows you to progress to new areas or even non critical areas instead of just letting you run through everything right away. If it weren't for leveling up a lot of games would just a corridor and all you have to do is go from one end to the other and that's it.

Shadow of colossus is one of the few where you can where you want and aside from a bit of grip stamina you beat the boss as how you first started the game.

Dark souls is about everything being hard and the challenge of fighting to gain souls for even a slight edge and the desperation of not losing those souls so you can improve yourself a little more. Soulsborne games it isn't a gimmick, it's a vital part of the game. Inching forward with that fear or getting set way back in an instant. It's a struggle to beat both the enemies and maintain your souls.

Most games would be boring as shit if you didn't have a level up mechanic to keep encouraging you to move ahead. Besides it's fun to unlock things and get stronger. I dont want most games to just be static.

Leveling up even includes new weapons or new gear. Its gaining things to improve yourself even if it isn't increasing stats. It also adds variety. I mean who the fuck wants every game to be like "ok here you are at the start, you won't gain anything ever, now just go beat the game exactly as you are right now. The only sense of accomplishment you will have is seeing the ending credits"

 

[Walledhouse]

Dark souls is about everything being hard and the challenge of fighting to gain souls for even a slight edge and the desperation of not losing those souls so you can improve yourself a little more.

Nail on the head, here.

For a bit of juxtaposing: Legend of Grimrock 2 is an amazing grid-based first person dungeon game and I recommend it even if you’ve been turned off by the genre before. Despite appearances it is mostly designed like series of puzzles; and leveling is on contributing aspect of solving them.

You didn’t have to get your mage to learn fireball; or even bring a mage at all. But because you did; undoubtedly some room will have a series of unlit torches across a chasm that you could light; triggering a secret area; which contains some powerful sword your fighter can use to solve the minotaur. It’s like the perfect fantasy RPG in a bottle; where every pieces is carefully placed under microscope.

 

[RedVIper]

How about roleplaying?

In fallout for example what you invest in your points can make the game wildly different.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I have found a lot of RPGs today are so loaded with stats the games are basically broken. The numerous weapons, add ons, passives, etc almost mean nothing. As an example in DS I played through the game naked, only wearing a hat and used the first wepon i came across. It was tough, but i never found it unbearable. The surge is another favorite, that it doesnt matter gear, weapon, etc. if you get hit you will likely die. The Division is another where you can level to do one thing, become a so OP the game is a joke.

Personally, I think half the weapon adds in games barely do anything or nothing at all.

If you want to see broken % calculations, read up on any Diablo patch notes. There's always notes on bug fixes for miscalculating stats. This shit has been going on since the first Diablo patch ever.

 

[Northeastmonk]

I understand toughness, meaning you have enough toughness and you won't get treated like a rag doll being thrown against the wall.

Bloodborne is one of my favs too. I’ve played NG and NG+ with the axe. Which sounds like easy mode in some ways, but honestly it was challenging. Getting the axe to +10 and making sure I had enough stamina to swing the thing. After my 3rd playthrough I started focusing on parrying bosses and using other weapons. I really wanted to find an OP weapon besides the Axe, but most builds I found were based off Arcane or something that didn’t feel that exciting to grind out. I’m like that with Souls. I went down to the crypts with a lightning based long sword and I could just use my black knight sword and do double damage. Even though I heard that a lighting based weapon was OP down there.

In Souls it’s a lot about knowing your limits. Poke away and defeat a tough enemy. You could also raise your stat and deal more damage on top of your current damage output.

What I don’t ever really get to do is break the game. I can defeat bosses. It’s all straight forward. I’ll add elemental damage, but I’ll always add to my level in order to increase a bar. Focus on armor and then spend points in stamina and health. I know I’m going to get hit and all.

In NiOh 2 I’m finding that equipment is way better than leveling. Focusing on Ki and maybe some health here and there. I find a weapon that’s 400+ base with amazing stats and I’m set. I don’t care that I’m 10-15 levels behind the recommended level.

I kinda wish I could get some feedback on my builds. They can typically finish the game just fine, but I feel like I’m a vanilla based powerhouse build.

I play Ninja Gaiden where I’m mainly focused on Izuna attacks, charge attacks, and then fast attacks. In Devil May Cry it’s a bunch of random stuff, but Ninja Gaiden gives you the tools and it’s basically fast attacks that allow you to block. In NG3, all I did was charge attacks and Izuna drops. Lol

If you can’t block and attack without balancing stamina/health then you’re fighting a losing battle. Toughness helps you take a hit. In NG you can roll out of attacks without worrying about stamina. You can go head on if you’re lucky. I wouldn’t necessarily want to fight an elemental boss with getting two hits in with a starting long sword. Pump some strength into that weapon or give me more swings. If I can roll after 3 hits then leveling up helped out a lot.

 

[LazyParrot]

Bloodborne is kind of a bad example for this, since it is one of very few games with a leveling system where player skill can remove the need to level almost entirely. I always kind of saw leveling in these games as a kind of roundabout way to implement a difficulty slider. It's basically there as an option for when you don't want to spend more time "gitting gud".

 

[Amaranty]

The leveling system in Bloodborne is to give the player a freedom of choice. The devs built the game around that. Maybe you want an harder experience, so you increase your stats on occasion, maybe you want an easier experience, so you start farming enemies to increase your stats to make the game easier, or maybe you want to play through the game as a level one character just to test yourself. This is also why you don't level up automatically in Soulsborne games because it gives you a choice.

It also opens up replay value. Maybe you want to create a new character with a different focus. Take Sekiro for example. There is only one weapon in the game and different skills that you can use, but that's it. Once I platinumed the game, I had no incentive to continue playing it because there was nothing to experiment with. I can always go back to Soulsborne and try out a new weapon and level up accordingly how I see fit.

If you want even a better example then take Nioh. It's similar to Soulsborne but the focus on different and crazy builds is staggering. Just look up on Youtube what kind of crazy builds people come up with in Nioh.

My point is, the games offer a freedom of choice. Taking that away is OK for people who don't care about it but I think a large community likes Soulsborne games just for this reason.

 

[cireza]

They could achieve the same result without the overly complicated stats and leveling system. In truth, RPGs throw at you a ton of stats, but there are only so many different builds possible. In Souls games, there are maybe 5 to 10 builds, and that's it. They could ask you to pick your build at the beginning of the game and never bother you again with stats and levels.

They kind of do ask, but you still have to manage your levels anyway. So the class at the beginning of the game is a bit pointless.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

ぎてぎゆで！

 

[tassletine]

I think you're getting it a bit wrong. Japanese games (far more than western ones) are about choice and fashioning your own experience using discipline (something that admittedly isn't well understood or even desired in the west).

So - he first 3 weapons you select in Bloodbourne are the difficulty levels. Axe (easy) Saw (mid) Cane (hard).
You can then fragment these builds to adapt to your own playstyle. Arcane, Strength etc.

What makes bloodbourne so good is that it is so well balanced, with each playstyle having an effect on gameplay. For instance, Shadows of Yharman are fairly easy with a strength build but much harder with dex. This makes multiple playthrough challenging and different. No one gets the same experience and all the bosses will wipe you out if you're the wrong build -- utterly demoralising you in the process. So you're punished at different times during different playthroughs.

On top of that you are expected to manage your own difficulty level, not just level up until you are overpowered. -- Which is why grinding exists -- Grinding is supposed to be boring, but it teaches you, like in life, that you can work hard to overcome challenges if you don't have the skill. Want a harder game, just don't touch the stats. Want an easier life -- work for that!!

Japanese games tend to be built around rigid rules that are representative of that culture, and when viewed through a western lens don't make that much sense. You can't just go wild and do what's instinctive, otherwise you'll get frustrated as your stats are all over the place. You are supposed to specialise and put thought into how you are doing that.

 

[and 3 others]

"If I'm doing good in the game, I'm doing good in life."

 

[Ar¢tos]

Low level runs make souls games much more satisfying. It forces you to learn the game and enemies moves and how to counter/dodge them and adds a ton more value to each stat point spent. You become a much better and effective player this way.
This is another reason I don't get "easy mode beggars", the amount of options to make souls games easier are far from short (magic, leveling up, upgrading gear, summons, etc).

 

[Cato]

Only scrubs level up in SoulsBourne games.
You don't want to be a scrub. You want to be a chad.
So, Git Gud and stop using the cheats and do a SL1 run like real men do.
(leveling up is just a different way to cheat)

 

[Duallusion]

I wouldn't enjoy many a game if they didn't have any sort of leveling up mechanic - it's often one of the most important feature for me, provided I enjoy the game(play) itself. It gives me some sort of psychological satisfaction to level up in games, even if the gameplay itself doesn't change all that much.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

It does give you a choice even on intended path. You see, even on intended path you can be underlevelled if you play a bit faster.

So you have a choice to be slightly underlevelled and push on, resulting in tense encounters. Or you grind a little and gain an upper hand. Take out a bit of probability and margin for error from equation.

I personally enjoy most the games where I get a smooth difficulty curve without me needing to grind. All enemies must be capable of killing me if I dont give proper input.

 

[The Cartographer]

1. The game doesn't have experience levels, that means all enemies are deadly, but also beatable, at all times.
2. The exploration is more limited, but again what's the point of exploring when you're punished for straying from the intended level order?

1) Ain't that exactly like Bloodborne? And please don't forget that NG has a weapon upgrade system just like BB.
2) I can't think of a single optional area in Bloodborne that punishes the player from exploring it.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

From my perspective, it's a built-in difficulty slider.

Even in the context of Bloodborne, a player can pump up Vitality, Stamina, and [matching weapon stat] and suddenly enemies become easier. Well... not "easier". Rather, failure is punished less severely, randomness is mitigated a bit better, and success is rewarded more handsomely.

RPGs are the same. Sure, you could run through a game minimally leveled, always exploiting an enemy's elemental weakness, always getting perfect rolls / criticals, but that's unlikely. So if an enemy or boss is too hard, grind for an hour or two and then you can click the exact same menu options and win the next encounter instead of losing.

 

[V2Tommy]

Everything should be like Punch Out. You level up. You can start right at Mike Tyson, but you'll never beat him until you have gained enough experience.

 

[anthraticus]

With action based games, devs should stay away from traditional RPG conventions such as crits, hit points, leveling up, etc. These work better for traditional RPG combat, not in real time action combat where such abstractions are no longer needed and more often than not just lead to bad gameplay. RPG mechanics should instead be handled via new moves and techniques that the player can learn as they advance.

 

[CitizenX3639]

Only scrubs level up in SoulsBourne games.
You don't want to be a scrub. You want to be a chad.
So, Git Gud and stop using the cheats and do a SL1 run like real men do.
(leveling up is just a different way to cheat)

i think what people dont realize is if you level, enemies will also level. Depending on if they are capped to a max or not is the only diff.

 

[joe_zazen]

Dopamine

games are made to be addictive. Rpg mechanics increase this in portion of game audience. You might not be one of those people, so there isn't anything to get really.

it is one way to coopt the brain’s reward systems that motivate people to bathe, clean up, pay bills on time, save money, go to school, do the dishes, study,etc. in order to maximise engagement, which in turn, can be used to increase ROI.

 

[Miles708]

Lots of interesting answers.

It's also the same with weapon ups in SHMUPS.
I am designing a SHMUP right now, and the levels are kind of impossible with the start weapon but kind of easy with full weaponry.
It's hard to strike the right balance.

But you are suspposed to have a weapon up system.

This is an neat connection with shooters. I think that, even in SHMUPS, leveling up weapons is kind of a cheap gameplay mechanic, and an easy way out.
Take the best in class here: Technosoft, the devs behind Thunderforce 3 and Thunderforce 4 (a.k.a. the best SHMUPS ever made).

These games have different weapons with different uses: wide shot, auto-search, back-fire, wall-running bullets and so on. Crucially, all weapons have only 1 power level (except the regular fire that has 2 levels), so the difference is all on gameplay, never in numbers.

I always thought Thunderforce 3 was the golden standard for Shoot'em Ups, and I think it still is.

Leveling up in a crucial point in a lot of games. It gives you a sense of accomplishment, something more to fight for and look forward to, it unlocks new things instead of just handing it all to you right away, it allows you to progress to new areas or even non critical areas instead of just letting you run through everything right away. If it weren't for leveling up a lot of games would just a corridor and all you have to do is go from one end to the other and that's it.

I'll cut your post here, because it fits nicely with the next one and I think it's the crucial point I'm clumsily trying to make:

RPG mechanics should instead be handled via new moves and techniques that the player can learn as they advance.

EXACTLY!

In videogames' storytelling, it's usually considered a best-pratice to, when possible, have a "show, don't tell" approach to cutscenes and explanations.
The reason is that playing through an event is, theoretically, more fun than just sit and watch it unfold.

If we take that as a good example, the "show, don't tell" approach to player-leveling would become: "actions, not numbers".
Instead of gating and area with of over-leveled enemies that one-shot you, give me a new weapon or ability to counter their peculiar attacks.
Instead of telling me a side-quest requires a "level 58 exp", tell me I need a specific ability, that will also open new gameplay possibilities down the line.

The point I'm trying to make is that having to unlock (even with experience points!) new abilites, gameplay systems, combos or moves, like the Ninja Gaiden example above, is an infintely better approach to game design than giving the player an impossible boss, and telling him to either test his patience by wasting time grinding his numbers, or test his luck by not getting hit even once with a dumb character.

 

[Walledhouse]

I love ducking into a high level area in a video game to steal some good equipment. Just playing The Surge 2 and I went off the intended route to fight some harder opponents; netted some tools that made the intended path a cake walk.

It’s like dipping into the graveyard; Catacombs or Old Londo Ruins in Dark Souls. Or bee-lining to The Gultch in the sequel. Or in Bloodborne jumping into the DLC early and making a run for the sick weapons before you’d be expected to.

By the way, Surge 2 has only a handful of stats you actually raise. It’s mostly about leveling up your equipment; which I’ll remind you comes from chopping pieces off enemies. Like robot Monster Hunter.