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PlayStation 4 hacked: pirate software available, more PS2 titles running

DonF

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Jul 10, 2017
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It has been reported that FW 4.05 had a vulnerability and was exploited to run homebrew. The curious thing is that once again its been proven that the ps4 has a working ps2 emulator. More at the link.
 
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Leonidas

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Mar 6, 2007
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Really strange how they have a working emulator yet Sony doesn't allow you to run the PS2 games on PSN on the PS4...
 

DiscoJer

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Sep 26, 2009
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Not that strange, the PS3 has a working PSP emulator (it was used to run MInis) yet was only allowed to run said Minis. The Vita has a PSP emulator but you can only download a small fraction of PSP titles from PSN, even though it will literally run them all (there was one weekend when Sony accidentally allowed everything to be downloaded (not to mention if you have a hacked Vita, it will play everything via the emulator)

Apparently sometime Sony just decided to turn into a dick about BC.
 
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DonF

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Not that strange, the PS3 has a working PSP emulator (it was used to run MInis) yet was only allowed to run said Minis. The Vita has a PSP emulator but you can only download a small fraction of PSP titles from PSN, even though it will literally run them all (there was one weekend when Sony accidentally allowed everything to be downloaded (not to mention if you have a hacked Vita, it will play everything via the emulator)

Apparently sometime Sony just decided to turn into a dick about BC.
If i had to guess, I believe that copyright is also involved. I don't really know, but maybe a code is made to run mainly in the console that it was developed for.
 

Fnord

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On the PS2 emulation front, it could be as innocent/simple as the cost of support would outweigh any goodwill that enabling it would create.
 

Lort

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On the PS2 emulation front, it could be as innocent/simple as the cost of support would outweigh any goodwill that enabling it would create.
Im sure it is that simple.. we may not make as much money as reselling the games .. even if its what our audience would want we wont do it because $$.

Ahhh $ony how awesome you are even when you do exactly what we dont want.
 

JimboJones

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Apr 16, 2009
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On the PS2 emulation front, it could be as innocent/simple as the cost of support would outweigh any goodwill that enabling it would create.
I assume so, probably similar to Nintendos situation, technically it's easy to implement but I'm guessing apart from the really popular titles relicensing and testing is probably a headache and not worth the cost.
Supporting newer games is more lucrative and what the majority of the player base wants anyway.
 

Mattyp

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May 29, 2017
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This is complete bullshit on Sonys behalf, they should be getting blasted on social media for this.
 

WaterAstro

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lol people automatically jumping the gun.

Even if there is a PS2 emulator, how many games are guaranteed to work 100%? That's what the hackers won't tell you as they stir up shit.

Sony's priority isn't spending millions to test every PS2 game to full compatibility. They make new games, and they're beating Xbox because of it.
 

Nintendo Switch

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Oct 27, 2017
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It's alarming how anytime any gaming company starts to get successful, they become super anti consumer. And only when they start doing poorly do they get some humility and start making more pro consumer decisions.

We saw this switch with every console manufacturer ever. Now, thanks the PS4's success, it's Sony turn at being anti consumer while MS has done a 180 and adopted all sorts of pro consumer policies.

lol people automatically jumping the gun.

Even if there is a PS2 emulator, how many games are guaranteed to work 100%? That's what the hackers won't tell you as they stir up shit.

Sony's priority isn't spending millions to test every PS2 game to full compatibility. They make new games, and they're beating Xbox because of it.
I don't care if every game runs at 100%. If 90% of games work at 90% compatibility, give us the damn emulator so that I can try my PS2 discs on the PS4 and play some old school games, even if some of them don't work perfectly.

I can't believe people are actually defending Sony regarding anti consumer stances like not allowing most PSP games to work on the Vita even when it is now an established fact that close to 100% of PSP games work perfectly.
 
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Lort

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Sony's priority isn't spending millions to test every PS2 game to full compatibility. They make new games, and they're beating Xbox because of it.
Because beating xbox is way like more dank than letting me play the games i already own.

Gooo fanbois! For the win!
 

Mr. Grumpy

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Dec 5, 2017
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Im sure it is that simple.. we may not make as much money as reselling the games .. even if its what our audience would want we wont do it because $$.

Ahhh $ony how awesome you are even when you do exactly what we dont want.
You saying $ony is no better than people saying M$. The reason we don't allow infantile talk like that is simply because it adds absolutely nothing to the topic in question. If you really don't have anything to add to the topic then it's best not to get in the way of it.
Because beating xbox is way like more dank than letting me play the games i already own.

Gooo fanbois! For the win!
The same for using this sort of language, this is no longer the community for posts of this kind.
 

Agent_Carnage

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Jan 28, 2015
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I dont get why sony doesnt do what MS does and allow you to put in the disk of said game and download it.
 

hikarutilmitt

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Yes they do. Otherwise it would be possible to do that on a real ps2 without a mod chip.
It's just for checking if it's a valid pressed disc and had a map file to tell the system the lba values for game files. Xbox discs have pressing for og Xbox as well as some sort of laser check for angles between files for authentication for 360.
 

autoduelist

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Really strange how they have a working emulator yet Sony doesn't allow you to run the PS2 games on PSN on the PS4...

Could be licensing issues.

I don't care if every game runs at 100%. If 90% of games work at 90% compatibility, give us the damn emulator so that I can try my PS2 discs on the PS4 and play some old school games, even if some of them don't work perfectly.

I can't believe people are actually defending Sony regarding anti consumer stances like not allowing most PSP games to work on the Vita even when it is now an established fact that close to 100% of PSP games work perfectly.
First off, it doesn't matter if you're okay with 90% compatability. So am I. Big deal. The reality is, if they put something up that crashed for 10% of the games, they'd get hell for it. Support calls. Complaints. People screaming from the windows. You being okay with it has nothing to do with it.

And as for the PSP game situation, the far more likely case is not that they are 'anti-consumer', but that they are dealing with complex licensing issues. License holders do their best to limit how their content can be used, and some contracts can easily have lines like 'licensed for use on PSP systems', whereas other games might have something like 'licensed for download on PSN'. With the first wording, they couldn't let it run on Vita. With the second, they could.

Assuming they're just 'anti-consumer' is, well, a load of crap.
 
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Spukc

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Jan 24, 2015
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All i really want is my 30+ psone games to work on my ps4.

But hey i can use my ps3 psp or vita.
So no biggie.
 

KiteGr

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Apr 27, 2011
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To late... I'm already at the latest firmware.
I don't care about pirating ps4 games as I love collecting those retail boxed complete editions (as long as they still exist), but I DO care about PS2 support. The BC is just abysmal, I have a literal library of PS2 games on my house playing them on an aging Ps2 mini, and there are tons of PS2/PS1 gems that didn't reach European shores, where locked behind some region coding and never became available on the store (Xenogears, Xenosaga, Paraside Eve, Chrono Cross to name a few).
 

Rellik

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Nov 22, 2015
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I dont get why sony doesnt do what MS does and allow you to put in the disk of said game and download it.
They probably saw the number of people who use BC on Xbox and decided its not worth the effort for little gain.

That's my guess anyway.
 

Blam

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Licensing is not the problem. Have you seen how easy devs are willing to allow Microsoft to BC enable their game.
 
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Not that strange, the PS3 has a working PSP emulator (it was used to run MInis) yet was only allowed to run said Minis. The Vita has a PSP emulator but you can only download a small fraction of PSP titles from PSN, even though it will literally run them all (there was one weekend when Sony accidentally allowed everything to be downloaded (not to mention if you have a hacked Vita, it will play everything via the emulator)

Apparently sometime Sony just decided to turn into a dick about BC.
I took full advantage of this, and it's one of the many reasons why I do not wanna sell my vita because I have all 3 Sypro and Crash games, all playable on my Vita. (Officially bought, btw)

Just that Sony wont allow you to play them on there. But they allow you to do so on your PSP or PS3...
 
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wvnative

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Why are people shocked there's an emulator? Are you people not aware of the digital PS2 games on the store?
 

autoduelist

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Licensing is not the problem. Have you seen how easy devs are willing to allow Microsoft to BC enable their game.
That's not how licensing works, though. Licensing is a giant mess. Like, far worse than you can imagine.

PS2 games, which are the ones being discussed, had licenses written before the digital revolution. That means they almost certainly limit usage to either a specific medium [ps2 disc] or a specific platform [ps2] or both.

Now, that means, for each and every single game you want to be able to run on a different format [digital] and a different device, you need to track down the license owner and renegotiate a new license.

Except:
1) The license holder might not be able to license the content anymore because -their- license for aspects of it [like the soundtrack] may have expired.
2) The license holder may no longer exist.
3) The company owning the license may have been sold 5 times piecemeal and impossible to track down.
4) The new company that owns the license may have bought the previous company for other assets and not care about licensing at all.
5) The property may not be worth the money and time to renegotiate.
6) The property holder may be impossible to deal with for a variety of other reasons.

The same goes for PSP games.

You'd think it would be different once digital hit, and companies would just demand 'forever' contracts. And some do. But content holders don't want to do this, because they want to ensure they see money forever too, so many won't sign away rights like 'you get to use this forever on anything', and instead limit it to platforms/etc so they can force renegotiation at a later date.

So to answer your question, " Have you seen how easy devs are willing to allow Microsoft to BC enable their game." No. It's far more likely the existing contracts were either written in such a way, or had loopholes that allowed, them to use them in BC.

Anyone who thinks licensing isn't a potential issue with something like this has never worked near the licensing industry. It's like a labyrinth designed by cruel lawyers.

The idea that Sony can just throw all their ps2 games up on psn without care for compatibility or licensing or else they are anti-consumer [like another poster said] is ridiculous.
 
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Blam

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That's not how licensing works, though. Licensing is a giant mess. Like, far worse than you can imagine.

PS2 games, which are the ones being discussed, had licenses written before the digital revolution. That means they almost certainly limit usage to either a specific medium [ps2 disc] or a specific platform [ps2] or both.

Now, that means, for each and every single game you want to be able to run on a different format [digital] and a different device, you need to track down the license owner and renegotiate a new license.

Except:

1) The license holder might not be able to license the content anymore because -their- license for aspects of it [like the soundtrack] may have expired.

2) The license holder may no longer exist.

3) The company owning the license may have been sold 5 times piecemeal and impossible to track down.

4) The new company that owns the license may have bought the previous company for other assets and not care about licensing at all.

5) The property may not be worth the money and time to renegotiate.

6) The property holder may be impossible to deal with for a variety of other reasons.

The same goes for PSP games.

You'd think it would be different once digital hit, and companies would just demand 'forever' contracts. And some do. But content holders don't want to do this, because they want to ensure they see money forever too, so many won't sign away rights like 'you get to use this forever on anything', and instead limit it to platforms/etc so they can force renegotiation at a later date.

So to answer your question, " Have you seen how easy devs are willing to allow Microsoft to BC enable their game." No. It's far more likely the existing contracts were either written in such a way, or had loopholes that allowed, them to use them in BC.

Anyone who thinks licensing isn't a potential issue with something like this has never worked near the licensing industry. It's like a labyrinth designed by cruel lawyers.

The idea that Sony can just throw all their ps2 games up on psn without care for compatibility or licensing or else their anti-consumer [like another poster said] is ridiculous.
I'm sure Sony's entire library isn't like this, and without a doubt there should be plenty of games that are still able to be licensed or are still in their original license. I'm also very sure that Sony could easily find a loophole in their contracts to allow them to use these in BC titles.

And no it's most likely that developers are able to null their own contract by approving the BC. As that's all Microsoft asks for from devs to allow them to put the games on the BC program. I very much already knew it would be some sort of shit from 1-6 since well half the companies that made Xbox games don't exist or are defunct, and same with PS2.
 

JP

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Licensing does appear to be a large part of it as there was an article on the PlayStation Blog sometime ago that discussed this.

They were saying that to be able to release some of the PS1 games gain on PS3 that it had at times taken a couple of years or so before they were able to do the work on the game to allow it to be released. Although that obviously doesn't mean two years of solid work it still means that the longer it takes the more it costs to release these games.

In terms of the technology used for back compatibility there was a DF article before the X launched that stated that it's been a part of Microsoft's overarching methods since the 360 and I think with this goal of a single Xbox platform for all games it would also have accounted for the differences in licensing details between the two companies in that if you know this is where you're final goal is then you're going to prepare for that as early as you can in relation to licensing terms.

I think Microsoft have just been well ahead of the game in terms of backwards compatibility as an Xbox service for some time now and it's possible that it will never be possible for Sony to catch up with them in this area due to a lack of foresight all those years ago. It would be nice if they could but I really think that people need to start accepting that it's just very unlikely to happen now.
 

GigiFusc

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I wonder if it's just a 'we don't need BC' attitude. My understanding is that BC on XB1 is a very small percentage and if the PS2 games that Sony have put on the PS4 have sold badly, that would be a good enough excuse for someone at HQ to veto the concept. You have to remember these people think mostly in numbers - show them the numbers, they'll do anything. Crash selling so well is good in that it has given someone the argument to push for remakes. But straight up BC or even ports? If the sales aren't there, they won't get the green light.

Platform holders and big publishers are strange beasts. Never forget that. They generally don't work with the same logic as the rest of the world. I'll never forget one of my old bosses vetoing a spiritual remake of an old classic game because he'd been in a meeting years earlier where someone proposed the same concept and he had a personal grudge against that guy. The conversation was literally 'No way. So 'n so proposed that about 2 years ago and I couldn't ever do anything that he proposed cos he was a dickhead'.

Pot. Kettle. and something else I cant remember......
 

autoduelist

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I'm sure Sony's entire library isn't like this, and without a doubt there should be plenty of games that are still able to be licensed or are still in their original license. I'm also very sure that Sony could easily find a loophole in their contracts to allow them to use these in BC titles.

And no it's most likely that developers are able to null their own contract by approving the BC. As that's all Microsoft asks for from devs to allow them to put the games on the BC program. I very much already knew it would be some sort of shit from 1-6 since well half the companies that made Xbox games don't exist or are defunct, and same with PS2.
Reread what I said. It doesn't matter that they "are still in their original license". And of course two parties can 'null their own contract'... that has nothing to do with this.

That you suggest Sony "could easily find a loophole in their contracts", in addition to the rest of your post, tells me you're talking about something you know nothing about. You just want what you want, and if you don't get it, you're going to blame the other guy for being a jerk. Boo hoo.
 
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Blam

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Reread what I said. It doesn't matter that they "are still in their original license". And of course two parties can 'null their own contract'... that has nothing to do with this.

That you suggest Sony "could easily find a loophole in their contracts", in addition to the rest of your post, tells me you're talking about something you know nothing about. You just want what you want, and if you don't get it, you're going to blame the other guy for being a jerk. Boo hoo.
I didn't call you a jerk but ok...

I was just saying that if they wanted to they could both easily null the contract, and that has everything to do with this. I'm pretty sure that's what Microsoft is doing when they ask for permission to put a game on BC.
 

DonF

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This situation makes me think about licenses and licensing rights. I mean, every ps2 had compat with ps1 games, same for ps3...at least for a while. What changed?
 

Blam

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This situation makes me think about licenses and licensing rights. I mean, every ps2 had compat with ps1 games, same for ps3...at least for a while. What changed?
I guess PS3 had it easy at least at the beginning since it literally had a PS2 inside it, and PS2 same thing it had the components for a PS1 inside it so if the license said it could only be played on that one platform it was still technically doing so.
 

Harlock

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I wish my PS4 played music CDs. I can rip the files, but I miss putting the disc and I don't have another CD player beside my computer.
 

Madison Paige

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The only way we're going to get this fixed is if we start pushing for backwards compatibility in strong numbers using social media to help build it into a thing. I agree with the posters who think copyright is involved, but we could at the very least push for them to start reissuing a new line of titles (if we have to buy them one more time, so be it) with compatibility with all future consoles being part of the deal.
 

DonF

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I guess PS3 had it easy at least at the beginning since it literally had a PS2 inside it, and PS2 same thing it had the components for a PS1 inside it so if the license said it could only be played on that one platform it was still technically doing so.
Ohh! You are right, its like a technicality in the case of the ps2 and ps3, since both system had the appropriate hardware, so it's not technically emulation.
 

Blam

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Ohh! You are right, its like a technicality in the case of the ps2 and ps3, since both system had the appropriate hardware, so it's not technically emulation.
I can only assume so since the PS3 stopped supporting as soon as the phat was dropped, and stopped being produced.
 

JP

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That seems to make sense to me.

Like I said earlier, I just think that Microsoft were well ahead of the game in terms of this stuff and although I think older games will continue to be available on future PlayStations I just don't think it's going to be anything but really difficult and expensive for them to even attempt to follow the service model that Microsoft have set.

Let's be honest, Sony aren't going to invest in it if it doesn't benefit them to do so in the same way that Microsoft wouldn't be doing it the way that they are if it wasn't benefiting them. Neither of them are going to invest in stuff like this because it benefits us but they will if it ends up benefiting them by benefiting us.
 
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phil_t98

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so if they have a working PS2 emulator then if you already own the PS2 games where is the licence issue?
you own the disc you put it in the console? yeah reselling the game I can see the issue but providing software for
the games you already own where is the issue?