• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Opinion Business Game Dev PlayStation Jim Ryan says removing Cyberpunk 2077 ‘was a tough decision, but we had to act’

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Aug 28, 2019
8,958
16,488
660
Same interview:

He said the PS5's compatibility with PS4 games was due to fans' "real desire" for that support. But he had no comment on whether Sony had plans to officially enable compatibility with PS1 games in any way.
What's next: Ryan pointed to the PS4 remake of a classic PS2 "Ratchet & Clank" game, plus an original sequel on PS5, as a model Sony likes.

"We believe this approach keeps our IP fresh and contemporary," he said.

Ryan confirms the obvious strategy of selling remakes over BC for older games.

lol
 

Cravis

Member
Aug 18, 2006
3,367
8,610
1,770
Yet you can still buy Life of Black Tiger, such a beacon of gaming quality.



Sure Jim, we believe you

Jennifer Lawrence Reaction GIF
 

Krappadizzle

Member
Oct 4, 2011
16,269
9,039
1,375
They can add a better refund system but that won't change that I agree if a game get universal refunds like CDPR it should be removed from the Store.

If most of people are refunding a game then I wish Sony doesn't sell this game anymore... at least not before it got 100% fixed.

BTW a universal refund system like Steam should just hide the issue and publishers/developers won't receive the community message at all.
I guess it's where we fundamentally disagree that I would rather choose for myself whether I want to buy a game or not and not be punished if the game isn't up to the quality standards I want or wasn't exactly the type of game I thought I was getting whereas it seems you'd rather let the giant corporation TELL you what is best for you.

And if you think a universal refund system hides anything. Well, what year do you think it is? Even IF it did, you wouldn't be punished by it fiscally one way or the other with a refund system in place and the lack of sales of any given game would be the message that the publishers/developers receive clearly indicating something is wrong.

The way you go about justifying your opinion is fascinating.
 

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
41,718
44,172
1,310
39
Brazil
I guess it's where we fundamentally disagree that I would rather choose for myself whether I want to buy a game or not and not be punished if the game isn't up to the quality standards I want or wasn't exactly the type of game I thought I was getting whereas it seems you'd rather let the giant corporation TELL you what is best for you.

And if you think a universal refund system hides anything. Well, what year do you think it is? Even IF it did, you wouldn't be punished by it fiscally one way or the other with a refund system in place and the lack of sales of any given game would be the message that the publishers/developers receive clearly indicating something is wrong.

The way you go about justifying your opinion is fascinating.
I'm not being punished.
A game massively refunded should not be sold at PS Store.
The simple action to stay on the Store is a punishment to the PS owners.

While I agree the refund system on PS Store should be rethinked... but in this case it should only hide the issue that was the publisher/dev abusing in shipping an unplayable game.

I hope that example make the publishers/devs things twice before try to trick us again.

PS community basically send a message to all publishers and developers and I loved it because we deserves better quality and commit from all of them.
 
Last edited:

Corndog

Member
Apr 17, 2020
979
992
295
I'm glad they did, I bought it used for $12 like 2 months after launch and it was a complete mess. It was morbid curiosity.

Developers should face repercussions for stuff like that. Wish it would happen more often.

trash GIF
Sony has to approve any game on its platform. So they had to know the state it was in. Same for Xbox.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
41,718
44,172
1,310
39
Brazil
Sony has to approve any game on its platform. So they had to know the state it was in. Same for Xbox.
I strong agree Sony should not let it pass.
They really needs to review their review process.
It is a Sony issue that should be fixed for future titles.... I hope their learn with that.

No matter how big the publisher/dev is.... Sony should not allow their unplayable game get into our PS.
 
Last edited:

01011001

Member
Dec 4, 2018
7,654
11,884
620
“This was a tough decision for us to make, but ultimately, we had to act in the interests of the PlayStation Community, and not knowingly sell a game that might result in a bad experience for them,” Ryan said.

what a pile of pure PR bullshit xD

Life of Black Tiger is still online. let's throw this quote into the NO-PR-BULLSHIT-REAL-TALK-O-NATOR™

“This was a tough decision for us to make, becasue we will lose money, but ultimately, we had to act because we have no functioning refund system in place, and knowingly sell a game that might result in us having to invest in one was just not in the cards. We don't really give a shit about our community, only about their money, but if you make our life harder then fuck off!” -Jim Ryan, 2021
[brought to you by the NO-PR-BULLSHIT-REAL-TALK-O-NATOR™]
 
Last edited:

Krappadizzle

Member
Oct 4, 2011
16,269
9,039
1,375
I'm not being punished.
A game massively refunded should not be sold at PS Store.
The simple action to stay on the Store is a punishment to the PS owners.

While I agree the refund system on PS Store should be rethinked... but in this case it should only hide the issue that was the publisher/dev abusing in shipping an unplayable game.

I hope that example make the publishers/devs things twice before try to trick us again.
You're not being punished in this instance because you don't get a choice, but there's more than enough examples of game trailers kind of indicating one thing and the game being different. So in those instances, with Sony's system in place you wouldn't get a refund. How is that for community care? Or in the instance when a game has performance issues that bug the shit out of you, but not enough fuss was raised so it doesn't get accepted that it "deserves" a refund, how is that good for the community? Skyrim PS3 anyone? The system they have in place sucks. It's not pro-consumer. It should change.

And again, YOU should be able to choose what YOU want to buy regardless. Don't roll over and let a company decide what's best for you. They don't have your best interest in mind.

I've bought many games on Steam that I thought would be different than what I was getting and I could get a refund with literally no questions asked, immediately if I didn't like them. It encourages me to take chances on games or genres that I may not have a lot of confidence in but would have a small interest in trying. I've discovered a bunch of new games that way. If those mechanism weren't in place, I'd take a lot less risk buying new shit.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
41,718
44,172
1,310
39
Brazil
You're not being punished in this instance because you don't get a choice, but there's more than enough examples of game trailers kind of indicating one thing and the game being different. So in those instances, with Sony's system in place you wouldn't get a refund. How is that for community care? Or in the instance when a game has performance issues that bug the shit out of you, but not enough fuss was raised so it doesn't get accepted that it "deserves" a refund, how is that good for the community? Skyrim PS3 anyone? The system they have in place sucks. It's not pro-consumer. It should change.

And again, YOU should be able to choose what YOU want to buy. Don't roll over and let a company decide what's best for you. They don't have your best interest in mind.

I've bought many games on Steam that I thought would be different than what I was getting and I could get a refund with literally no questions asked, immediately. It encourages me to take chances on games or genres that I may not have a lot of confidence in but would have a small interest in trying. I've discovered a bunch of new games that way. If those mechanism weren't in place, I'd take a lot less risk buying new shit.
So it should keep happening?
We PS fans talked with our wallet asking refunds and making Sony take finally a initiative is already a win for us gamers.

No matter if the same happened in the past... after Cyberpunk 2077 it should not happen again.
It changes the game for publishers and developers.

What happened in the past is past... now new games should not do the same... it is a good example and set the line for what is allowed or not in PS Store.

Plus no matter the Store it should not allow something unplayable to be even offered to me buy.
It should the base of a Store that I want to use.
Stores should be curated.

When I go to a Retail Store... I go in a Retail Store that sells a level of quality of I want to buy things... others I don't even enter.... if I go in a new Store and it has things that I don't think it is quality enough for me I will just never enter again.

Same for Web Stores... that is why I prefer PlayStation ecosystem than others... the same can be said about my choose for iPhone over Android... if they change that I will not use their product anymore.... because I look exactly for that... a closed system.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
41,718
44,172
1,310
39
Brazil
It's not like you can't do both.
It is a matter of money and time.
I prefer the money being used in new things even if remakes.
I really don't appreciate BC and find it just a waste of money and time... let BC be a think in PC with emulators... I don't know.
 
Last edited:

GhostOfTsu

Member
May 11, 2018
947
1,814
495
Yet you can still buy Life of Black Tiger, such a beacon of gaming quality.

Why do you guys keep mentioning that fucking game? Nobody bought it and no one is playing this garbage. You're all repeating each other for no reason.

Cyberpunk was a high-profile release, the biggest game of 2020. Millions of people bought it DAY 1 and the developers told their customers to ask for refunds. It's not the same situation at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gurney and Mr Moose

LRKD

Member
Nov 11, 2020
149
216
280
Nobody played those two games.
Then all the more reason they should've removed it, and unlike Cyberpunk it wouldn't have been a 'tough decision'.
Seems like he's just talking out his ass to act like the 'good guy', just like how they protect the children by censoring anything from Japan, meanwhile allowing nasty shit like tlou2.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: ANIMAL1975

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
41,718
44,172
1,310
39
Brazil
Then all the more reason they should've removed it, and unlike Cyberpunk it wouldn't have been a 'tough decision'.
Seems like he's just talking out his ass to act like the 'good guy', just like how they protect the children by censoring anything from Japan, meanwhile allowing nasty shit like tlou2.
Well all the people that brought these games asked Refunds?
So how you want Sony to remove something if the people that brought it was fine with it.

Now Sony received the message that PS gamers won't accept games like Cyberpunk 2077 and so they removed it.

It seems unfair but a small game won't reach that level of message to Sony... but Cyberpunk 2077 yeap it was the right example to show to publishers/developers that PS fans won't accept any shit they ship.

It is really weird some trying to find excuses to criticize the action of removal of the game from the Store because it only beneficiaste gamers... Sony lose a lot of money, CDPR lose a lot of money... only PS gamers got beneficied by the decision.

Sony did the action because they were losing money but the reason for do something right is not important... if you did right no matter the reason you choose to do it won't change it was the right thing to do.

The message is sent.
 
Last edited:

reinking

Member
Jun 1, 2020
1,311
1,939
445
Why do you guys keep mentioning that fucking game? Nobody bought it and no one is playing this garbage. You're all repeating each other for no reason.

Cyberpunk was a high-profile release, the biggest game of 2020. Millions of people bought it DAY 1 and the developers told their customers to ask for refunds. It's not the same situation at all.
Funny. These guys would have been all over it if Sony had removed the that game and claimed that Sony would never do that to a big title.
 

Cravis

Member
Aug 18, 2006
3,367
8,610
1,770
Why do you guys keep mentioning that fucking game? Nobody bought it and no one is playing this garbage. You're all repeating each other for no reason.

Cyberpunk was a high-profile release, the biggest game of 2020. Millions of people bought it DAY 1 and the developers told their customers to ask for refunds. It's not the same situation at all.
A company, especially one as big as Sony, should have a set refund policy in place that is consistent.

Doesn’t matter if it’s an indie title no one bought or big a release like Cyberpunk. That one guy that bought Life of Tiger and asks for a refund should be allowed just like the thousands that asked for refunds on Cyberpunk.

Shitty practices by big companies deserve to be called out, not defended.
 

laynelane

Member
Aug 21, 2019
508
879
360
Sony has to approve any game on its platform. So they had to know the state it was in. Same for Xbox.

I was interested in this topic and did a little research a while back. This article does a decent job of explaining the certification process for games on console and ties into the fallout from Cyberpunk's release. It is unlikely MS or Sony knew the state the game was in prior to launch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
41,718
44,172
1,310
39
Brazil
A company, especially one as big as Sony, should have a set refund policy in place that is consistent.

Doesn’t matter if it’s an indie title no one bought or big a release like Cyberpunk. That one guy that bought Life of Tiger and asks for a refund should be allowed just like the thousands that asked for refunds on Cyberpunk.

Shitty practices by big companies deserve to be called out, not defended.
You can ask refund for you Life of Tiger purchase… you have 14 days I believe to do that… there are some restrictions like you have played less than 1 hour I believe.
 

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
41,718
44,172
1,310
39
Brazil
I was interested in this topic and did a little research a while back. This article does a decent job of explaining the certification process for games on console and ties into the fallout from Cyberpunk's release. It is unlikely MS or Sony knew the state the game was in prior to launch.
I believe Sony just trusted the Day One patch lies like the Journalists.

I hope this changes for the future… Somy needs to weigh more in that review process.
 

LRKD

Member
Nov 11, 2020
149
216
280
Well all the people that brought these games asked Refunds?
So how you want Sony to remove something if the people that brought it was fine with it.

Now Sony received the message that PS gamers won't accept games like Cyberpunk 2077 and so they removed it.

It seems unfair but a small game won't reach that level of message to Sony... but Cyberpunk 2077 yeap it was the right example to show to publishers/developers that PS fans are not idiots.
If Sony was really the good guy, and cared about PS Fans. They would put in a real fucking refund system. Then fans could choose for themselves if they wanted to keep there broken game or get a refund. Xbox has refunds, Steam has refunds. Why doesn't Sony?

Sony didn't receive a message that PS gamers won't accept shit games. They've been accepting shit games since the beginning of time. SotC, AC Unity, the terrible Vita ports, Drakengard 3. Minecraft on PS4 last time I played it was unplayable. It constantly had issues where I had to reinstall it, and had terrible fps drops and crashes. They didn't receive a message that PS gamers won't accept shit games, they received the message that they better act quickly before PS gamers wake up and realize they're the only idiots who don't have a refund system.

Any PS Fans praising Sony for this are idiots. Ask them to give you a real refund system so YOU can decide which games are or aren't acceptable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: darkangel-212559

Cravis

Member
Aug 18, 2006
3,367
8,610
1,770
You can ask refund for you Life of Tiger purchase… you have 14 days I believe to do that… there are some restrictions like you have played less than 1 hour I believe.
See I did not know that. They don’t advertise that, which they should.

Thankfully I didn’t purchase Life of Tiger, haha.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: ethomaz

laynelane

Member
Aug 21, 2019
508
879
360
I believe Sony just trusted the Day One patch lies like the Journalists.

I hope this changes for the future… Somy needs to weigh more in that review process.

The expense and manpower required for Sony (and Nintendo, MS) to create a review process for all games released on their store would be astronomical. I don't see it happening. One thing I noticed about PSN's refund policy is there is a caveat for faulty content:

After purchasing this type of content through PlayStation Store, you have 14 days from purchase to request a refund. If you have started to download or stream the purchased content you will not be eligible for a refund unless the content is faulty.

Source.

I'm not sure if it was there before Cyberpunk, but it certainly would cover it and any future games like it.
 
Mar 6, 2016
4,897
5,440
900
First page full of the Xbox trolls as expected.

CDPR lied about their game. And using life as black tiger as some sort of comparison is disingenuous at best.

You can’t even buy it in the eu.

I’m sure if uncle Phil banned it too you wouldn’t be making up fud.
 

GHG

Member
Nov 9, 2006
26,555
40,837
1,845
Well Remakes/Remasters are better than BC.

See Demon's Souls.

I don't believe anybody wanted a BC over the actual Remake.

Both can be an option.

There are a ton of old games that will never get remastered/remade and we shouldn't have to rely on them to do so.

It's ridiculous that the only option I have is to emulate games on non-playstation hardware. They need to fix this.

First page full of the Xbox trolls as expected.

CDPR lied about their game. And using life as black tiger as some sort of comparison is disingenuous at best.

You can’t even buy it in the eu.

I’m sure if uncle Phil banned it too you wouldn’t be making up fud.

Uncle Phil needed to keep it because they had a marketing deal and were relying on it to prop up their new consoles' non existent launch line-up.
 
Last edited:

DiscoDave

Member
May 22, 2021
66
41
185
The PS community decided why one was removed and the other not.
We PS fans worked with our wallets and asked refunds.
The numbers of refunds asks was basically universal... so the best for the community was the game being removed and Sony listened.

That is an amazing feat because it set precedent for others games... if most community find it is not in the PS quality level it should be removed and the Publisher/Developer should learn we won't accept that anymore.
Good point and don't know why I didn't think of that. It was crazy really as I can't think of any big game its happened to. It should send a message to others that playsation wont tolerate the shit so it may turn out to be a big positive in terms of games being released to be actually fucking finished playable products.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ethomaz

Three

Member
Oct 26, 2014
6,585
4,375
690
I mean, Jim, had CDPR not told people to bug you for refunds the odds of you guys removing it from sale were 0 lol. If they cared about player experience, shit like Life of Black Tiger and Firefighters the Simulation never would have been allowed on the store.
This is true but I'd imagine they get far less calls or support tickets openned for a game like that because hardly anyone actually buys it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: polybius80

assurdum

Banned
Aug 14, 2020
3,799
6,546
530
That's incredible. When Spencer say something of right it's all about "bravo bravo, best guy of the industry, one of us". If Ryan does the same "lol, you fucking moron, you don't give a fuck of the gamers, it's all about money, fuck you Jim". And I'm the last person who has sympathy for him. It's outstanding how the opinions can be easily manipulate with good PR words.
 
Last edited:

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
14,426
29,022
1,420
That's incredible. When Spencer say something of right it's all "bravo bravo best guy of the industry". If Ryan does the same "lol, you fucking moron, you don't give a fuck of the gamers, it's all about money for you". And I'm the last person who has sympathy for him.
You were not the only one to notice the double standards.

And like you, I don't like this suit. It's obvious it was about CDPR overstepping them with refunds.

But having said that, a lot of the people jumping on his throat here actually defend equally duplicitous talk from other executives.
 

Boss Mog

Member
Dec 12, 2013
9,080
14,521
1,060
Translation "We do not like giving refunds and we knew this game would piss off a lot of people. But we need the money. So we removed the problem itself. Please understand its because we truly care for our customers......not"
You do understand that they can't make money off of it if they're not selling it, right? Also it's pretty clear that only a small percentage of users asked for a refund and so Sony would've actually made money by keeping it on the store. They did this to protect the PlayStation brand from having shoddy AAA software on it.
 

assurdum

Banned
Aug 14, 2020
3,799
6,546
530
You were not the only one to notice the double standards.

And like you, I don't like this suit. It's obvious it was about CDPR overstepping them with refunds.

But having said that, a lot of the people jumping on his throat here actually defend equally duplicitous talk from other executives.
Jim did the right thing in this case. Yes he is hypocrite (as Spencer) but what changes? CDPR not deserve a shit, this game it's still in a pathetic state and the problem it's Ryan? Lol. About Spencer I almost exhausted to see the people fall in the traps of his manipulative "genuineness".
 
Last edited:

hemo memo

Member
Sep 13, 2011
8,661
7,577
1,045
PlayStation felt it could not sell a game that could “result in a bad experience” for players.
Yet they didn’t have a problem selling Black Tiger or other junk on the PSN store or their own The Last Guardian on base PS4. Jim just shut the fuck up. The reason is they offered refunds, you got pissed because “refunds” are against your awful company policy. You decided to remove the game from the store. That is it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: darkangel-212559

Denton

Member
Mar 11, 2014
6,635
2,006
725
Thank you Jim, for taking care of the brainless morons among your fans who are unable to make a decision whether to purchase something on their own, as well as ensuring none of your employees have to go through the trouble of implementing reasonable 21st century refund system. So considerate of you.
 
Last edited:
Oct 5, 2019
341
726
465
Because we hate refunds
That's the dumbest shit I've heard.

Sales numbers were still overwhelmingly higher than refunds. Therefore, a "refund cost" was/would be still significantly lower than the potential sales revenue which is now zero... But yeah, let's throw some dumb theory, bunch of idiots will jump on that bandwagon.

 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Dec 25, 2019
11,387
21,570
1,025
Prague, Czech Republic
That's the dumbest shit I've heard.

Sales numbers were still overwhelmingly higher than refunds. Therefore, a "refund cost" was/would be still significantly lower than the potential sales revenue which is now zero... But yeah, let's throw some dumb theory, bunch of idiots will jump on that bandwagon.

Dumbest shit? I don't know. I personally think that Sony got mad about CDPR, because they actively encouraged you to get the refund. Which obviously means that there is going to be a lot of them. Hell I finished the game and got refund from MS*. So I don't think that company like Sony likes this sort of thing. I could be wrong, but since there are other broken games out there and this is frist one which got banned, I don't know man.

*I re-bought the game since
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
Dec 16, 2020
1,664
2,420
455
I'm glad they did, I bought it used for $12 like 2 months after launch and it was a complete mess. It was morbid curiosity.

Developers should face repercussions for stuff like that. Wish it would happen more often.
What happened to making an informed decision? Or would you like me to vote for you as well? Every game right now is available digitally as well, there is absolutely no reason you cannot wait 1-2 days for reviews and even hands-on impressions.
 

ZywyPL

Member
Nov 27, 2018
6,019
10,713
725
Well Remakes/Remasters are better than BC.

See Demon's Souls.

I don't believe anybody wanted a BC over the actual Remake.

Depends on the execution, some remakes/remasters are outstanding, others... let's say questionable. But the issue is that if devs will keep making those, who's gonna make the actually new games?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ethomaz