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PlayStation Meeting announced. September 7th 3PM ET (PS4 Neo Reveal)

Right before the Neo's unveil, how do you feel about the system?


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sviri

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Jul 1, 2013
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That really put things into perspective for me. I'd always assumed that, even though PS4 had what people were calling a laptop cpu, a difference of 7-8 years surely meant that it's processor would still be more powerful than PS3's. So wait a minute, what was the reasoning behind the planned regression in cpu performance?
 

onQ123

Member
May 1, 2010
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About what? :D

I've got no idea about rear USB ports, but based on PS system history I'd say the chances are slim to none.

About not knowing if anything changed. Not saying that you know for sure but I know you have heard a little something or hints at what might be changed.


You haven't heard anything about the memory maybe getting an upgrade?
 

KennyLinder

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May 11, 2007
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About not knowing if anything changed. Not saying that you know for sure but I know you have heard a little something or hints at what might be changed.


You haven't heard anything about the memory maybe getting an upgrade?
There were requests from internal teams a few months ago to ask for more RAM. I honestly don't know if more is getting added or not.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Jul 26, 2014
26,222
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That really put things into perspective for me. I'd always assumed that, even though PS4 had what people were calling a laptop cpu, a difference of 7-8 years surely meant that it's processor would still be more powerful than PS3's. So wait a minute, what was the reasoning behind the planned regression in cpu performance?
The flop count is misleading. Even though Cell was a beast in crunching numbers and general power terms at the time (even today its no slouch), utilizing that complicated architecture in games was very difficult and was almost 100% never going to be fully utilized anywhere near what its theoretical max was.

Only certain parts of the CPU could actually utilize most of its full potential(the SPU's), and on top of that, third party devs and even first party devs had to also actively sacrifice CPU power to prop up the weak GPU in the PS3 to keep par with the 360's stronger GPU, because the Cell could also do a lot of GPU graphics rendering as well.

The 360's CPU, the Xenon, was much more standardized and nowhere near as ambitious as PS3's CELL design, but it was much easier to get results out of and use, and as a result most 360 third party games ran better on that machine(in addition to the RAM design and stronger GPU of course)

The Jaguar in PS4 and XB1 follows that principle as well. Its FAR easier to use than Cell ever was, and so, in combination with the general architectural efficiency of a CPU made in 2013, you actually get far better results CPU wise in gaming on Jaguar than you would during Cell's applications.

When people talk about CPU power in the 8th gen, nothing should be contrasted with CELL, as that was a weird situation on its own. Instead, the contrast should be with Xenon, as that is far more comparable. Its already been theoretically benchmarked by a dev on Trials Fusion over on Beyond3D, and apparently an 8 core jaguar clocked at 1.6GHZ is around 2.5 to 3x as fast as Xenon is in general gaming usage.

Considering both XB1 and PS4 use 7 cores at this point for gaming, they are getting pretty close to that level.
 
Mar 15, 2014
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I've got no idea about rear USB ports, but based on PS system history I'd say the chances are slim to none.
Please be wrong. I know it's a trivial aesthetic thing, but I'll hate having a USB cable permanently trailing from the front of the Neo to the back of the PSVR box.

The AUX socket for the camera is just a USB3 socket with a custom connector, so the motherboard design already caters for rear USB3. Please Sony, don't mess this up.

Also, what is going on with the rumour of an amended camera? Surely they won't bundle the camera with Neo if it's included in one of the PSVR bundles?
 

artsi

Member
Apr 7, 2014
7,116
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My version of the Foxconn artist's work.

I guess it's cool. You could use the front side as a mini skateboard ramp, or plow snow with it.

 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Aug 24, 2010
12,116
5
810
I really hope that is the design, it's exactly what I wanted.
 

onQ123

Member
May 1, 2010
17,165
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1,310
Please be wrong. I know it's a trivial aesthetic thing, but I'll hate having a USB cable permanently trailing from the front of the Neo to the back of the PSVR box.

The AUX socket for the camera is just a USB3 socket with a custom connector, so the motherboard design already caters for rear USB3. Please Sony, don't mess this up.

Also, what is going on with the rumour of an amended camera? Surely they won't bundle the camera with Neo if it's included in one of the PSVR bundles?

Maybe the camera is going to help with 4K by doing eye tracking & foveated rendering
 

sviri

Member
Jul 1, 2013
429
0
0
The flop count is misleading. Even though Cell was a beast in crunching numbers and general power terms at the time (even today its no slouch), utilizing that complicated architecture in games was very difficult and was almost 100% never going to be fully utilized anywhere near what its theoretical max was.

Only certain parts of the CPU could actually utilize most of its full potential(the SPU's), and on top of that, third party devs and even first party devs had to also actively sacrifice CPU power to prop up the weak GPU in the PS3 to keep par with the 360's stronger GPU, because the Cell could also do a lot of GPU graphics rendering as well.

The 360's CPU, the Xenon, was much more standardized and nowhere near as ambitious as PS3's CELL design, but it was much easier to get results out of and use, and as a result most 360 third party games ran better on that machine(in addition to the RAM design and stronger GPU of course)

The Jaguar in PS4 and XB1 follows that principle as well. Its FAR easier to use than Cell ever was, and so, in combination with the general architectural efficiency of a CPU made in 2013, you actually get far better results CPU wise in gaming on Jaguar than you would during Cell's applications.

When people talk about CPU power in the 8th gen, nothing should be contrasted with CELL, as that was a weird situation on its own. Instead, the contrast should be with Xenon, as that is far more comparable. Its already been theoretically benchmarked by a dev on Trials Fusion over on Beyond3D, and apparently an 8 core jaguar clocked at 1.6GHZ is around 2.5 to 3x as fast as Xenon is in general gaming usage.

Considering both XB1 and PS4 use 7 cores at this point for gaming, they are getting pretty close to that level.
Thanks for that. So I'm guessing then that it isn't due to lack of cpu power that PS4/Neo would have trouble emulating PS3. Probably something more complicated.
 
Mar 15, 2014
1,090
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Maybe the camera is going to help with 4K by doing eye tracking & foveated rendering
Que? Not sure if you're joking, but foveated rendering requires the camera to be inside the headset, it also needs much higher resolution screens, doesn't it?

Edit: sorry I completely misunderstood your response.
 

onQ123

Member
May 1, 2010
17,165
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1,310
Well everyone always asks for more of everything! :D

I dunno, maybe with the upgraded GPU and CPU boost over base PS4, the 8gb RAM became a bottleneck. Or its memory bandwidth.

I'm hoping for about 512MB or more of HBM being used as cache
 

Venom Fox

Banned
Feb 28, 2015
4,702
0
0
Manchester, UK
Latest drawing from our fellow Foxconn artist.

How certain are we that this guy is the same person who posted the slim drawing? These leaked works of art seem like different people's to me.

That Neo is fuck ugly. It's gonna look like the Venom Snake clone of a PS2. Ugly, scarred and has a personality disorder...

Edit: It's literally a huge PS2. But without a disc tray.
 

pottuvoi

Banned
May 17, 2010
3,821
34
780
That really put things into perspective for me. I'd always assumed that, even though PS4 had what people were calling a laptop cpu, a difference of 7-8 years surely meant that it's processor would still be more powerful than PS3's. So wait a minute, what was the reasoning behind the planned regression in cpu performance?
There are couple of factors.

The aim for Ps4 was to be easy programming and AMD CPUs aren't that impressive in terms of vector performance. (better SIMD would have given some nice boost to performance,)

Also due to end of Dennard scaling at around ~2005 etc., the serial performance increase from smaller transistors has pretty much stopped.
 

Carn82

Member
Jan 15, 2014
4,115
2
435
Thanks for that. So I'm guessing then that it isn't due to lack of cpu power that PS4/Neo would have trouble emulating PS3. Probably something more complicated.
It would need to emulate a very complex architecture; it would need to be a massive cpu. I doubt any commercially available cpu would be up to that task, it would be easier to slap in a Cell chip. That's why we see a lot of ps3 remasters, not because of only 'easy money', but also because it makes an x86 version available. If Sony sticks with this architecture you might see a new The Last Of Us on ps5 or ps6 in 4k.
 

wapplew

Member
Mar 1, 2012
13,775
6
610
How certain are we that this guy is the same person who posted the slim drawing? These leaked works of art seem like different people's to me.

That Neo is fuck ugly. It's gonna look like the Venom Snake clone of a PS2. Ugly, scarred and has a personality disorder...

Edit: It's literally a huge PS2. But without a disc tray.
Same poster. Unless his account got hacked.
 

pottuvoi

Banned
May 17, 2010
3,821
34
780
I'm hoping for about 512MB or more of HBM being used as cache
Intel style L4 cache certainly would be interesting and would be nice for performance. (GPUs are bandwidth starwed and I'm sure that improved latency would be nice as well.)
Tweaked SIMD for CPU could be nice as well.

Really doubt that either of these happen.
 

Dynomutt

Member
Jan 5, 2014
5,297
2
520
i present the Playstation Neo

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Nah...But it would have been cool though. 9 more days.
 

Venom Fox

Banned
Feb 28, 2015
4,702
0
0
Manchester, UK
My money is on a PS2-style disc tray.

How many UHD BD players on the market are slot-loaders? None. Neo needs to compete in this space as well as its new premium console one.
Nah, they'll go slot load as usual.
it looks way different than the first drawing here showed.

I like the new design but Idk if it will end up being like that in the end.

9.5 more days.
Exactly. The drawing from the other day was terrible and completely different from this one.
 

onQ123

Member
May 1, 2010
17,165
8,727
1,310
It would need to emulate a very complex architecture; it would need to be a massive cpu. I doubt any commercially available cpu would be up to that task, it would be easier to slap in a Cell chip. That's why we see a lot of ps3 remasters, not because of only 'easy money', but also because it makes an x86 version available. If Sony sticks with this architecture you might see a new The Last Of Us on ps5 or ps6 in 4k.
I think Neo's APU could emulate Cell & RSX if it has cache & a chip to recompile some PS3 code into PS4 code.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Jul 26, 2014
26,222
1
0
America
I think Neo's APU could emulate Cell & RSX if it has cache & a chip to recompile some PS3 code into PS4 code.
Jeff...is that you

*edit*

your right that they would need a chip, but it would have to be the Cell chip specifically, there is no other fixed function unit that could possibly emulate PS3 right now, especially in NEO's price bracket.
 
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