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Police Brutality: are we biased towards police officers?

greenteaforme

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Apr 18, 2020
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I was thinking about it today, and I feel like when it comes to police brutality, this site in particular has high standards for civilians but not cops. There's all these rules that civilians should follow, but it seems Gaf gives cops more leeway. Seems like the trained professionals shouldn't be excused for getting scared more than civilians do. I've just noticed "he was scared" is an acceptable defense for officers but not civilians. I was hoping for some opinions/perspectives on this subject.
 

DragoonKain

Neighbours from Hell
Nov 13, 2013
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You have to take it on a case by case basis, but you have to remember that different standards apply to both civilian and officer. The officer has a duty and obligation to protect their fellow officer and civilian. So they have to approach situations differently than anyone else would. They are obligated to. Now, if they commit clear wrongdoing then they need to be punished, but not everything is cut and dry as situations have incredible nuance and variance.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "scared" thing, it depends on what happens when the officer was scared. If an officer pulls over a random guy for a traffic stop and decides to beat them to a pulp for no reason because they were scared for no apparent reason? Bad.

If an officer pulls someone over because the car fits the description of a vehicle used in a nearby robbery, the officer tells them to get out of the car, they go to reach in their jacket, the officer tells them to put their hands up, that person ignores the officer and continues to reach in their jacket, then yeah the officer has every right to be scared and has every right to fire on that individual if they ignores the orders of the officer. Not because he doesn't value their life, but because he values the lives of nearby civilians who that person could harm or kill if this is the robbery suspect and the person has a weapon.

For civilians it's often more cut and dry than it is for officers. Just follow orders, don't break the law basically. For officers they have to assess every situation from a wide variety of angles and determine an appropriate course of action based on both their instincts and policy standards. Not easy to do.
 

DeepEnigma

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HarryKS

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Ask yourself this question: if people weren't scared of being killed by the police, what would the point of police be?
 

Woo-Fu

incest on the subway
Jan 2, 2007
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~800,000 police officers, millions of contacts each year. I feel pretty comfortable in assuming the exceedingly tiny amount of egregious incidents aren't representative of the whole.

It's a shitty job and I'm thankful we have people who will do it. That means they'll always get the benefit of the doubt until there is compelling evidence otherwise.

As far as this site always taking the side of the cops vs. the victims I can't remember an incident recently where I'd consider the victims victims to begin with. Seems like it's been entirely people with priors and/or existing warrants getting high, doing incredibly stupid shit and then getting shot for it. Throw in a couple crazy people threatening bodily harm and that about covers it.

Lastly, you can't demonize police officers for following the procedures as establish by their departments. If you have problems with police procedure you need to start at the top, not the bottom. When police have to worry about losing their jobs simply for doing them properly things start to fall apart. We saw plenty of examples of that this summer. It's particularly damning when you have departments/administrations that are primarily minority staffed still trying to play the racism card like Bottoms does in Atlanta.
 
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Goro Majima

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Sep 2, 2007
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This is one of those subjects where you can write a novel and you might not even begin to scratch the underpinning issues affecting police in the US. It also lets people cherry pick their narratives to a certain extent because it's so complex.

AND THEN - you finally have to evaluate each individual incident impartially with all the uncertainties that go along with that.

AND THEN AND THEN - the only lens of consequence that these issues are viewed through retroactively is through the scope of the local legal framework. A lot of people don't like the outcomes of these court cases but the laws and regulations are usually pretty clear to what extent a police officer can use their discretion.

So whenever these subjects come up I'm just like - what part do you want to discuss? Because the issues facing policing in the US are: socio-economic, historical (bad neighborhood bias), racial/bigotry, corruption, veteran to peacetime police transition, veterans with PTSD from never ending wars, underpaid, underfunded, lack of support (psychological evaluations), overworked, poor training, low standards, ineffective local government, good old boy systems, bureaucratic politics within departments, and on and on.

I agree with you that I think people here are generally of the mindset that anyone who takes all that and boils it down to "ACAB" are idiots.
 

Ballthyrm

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Jun 21, 2013
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There is a very long list of circumstance that never get judged in every video where a cop behave badly, Goro Majima Goro Majima listed quite a few already.

As with everything the woke is trying to do, the first thing they want to do is destroy context.
When you destroy the context, you destroy the meaning of the video and it's a very blunt instrument.

Both sides do it and that's why we see Cops getting cleared by the justice system all the time.

So first thing should be admitting we are lacking context in a lot of things.
After admitting there is a problem, the next thing you should do is assess it.

Complex problems probably won't require simple solutions.
Be very wary of people with simple answers.
 
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Puncheur

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Jun 11, 2020
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From a UK perspective police 'brutality' is a topic that has been blown out of all proportion and police/public relations have been set back years by the likes of BLM / race baiters and bad faith activists. All in an attempt to ape US culture and import its problems.

The fact is according to the BBC that over the past decade, only 163 people have died in police custody in England and Wales. Of the 163, 140 of these were white, 13 of them were black and 10 were of a different ethnicity. In the news you only ever see reports about the black people that died in police custody. This is out of millions of interactions that the police have with the public. Yes mistakes are made (like the time a white man was shot dead for carrying a chair leg which resulted in zero mostly peaceful riots) and the police have had to improve their interactions with those experiencing mental health crises.
Given the news coverage and its hysterical nature one would think that black people are dying daily at the hands of the police and if you're a Liberal this will be your world view as backed by recent news reports.
I've seen first hand being a witness to an awful situation of the type of shit police have to deal with and I only have the upmost respect for them having to deal with the dregs of society day in day out.
I get pissed off with the police when I see news reports of how 'being offensive is a crime' or when someone is arrested gor a tweet!

The linked story sums up the state of UK policing and free speech right now...

 

gunslikewhoa

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Mar 3, 2014
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I was thinking about it today, and I feel like when it comes to police brutality, this site in particular has high standards for civilians but not cops. There's all these rules that civilians should follow, but it seems Gaf gives cops more leeway. Seems like the trained professionals shouldn't be excused for getting scared more than civilians do. I've just noticed "he was scared" is an acceptable defense for officers but not civilians. I was hoping for some opinions/perspectives on this subject.

Surely giving even one example isn't too much to ask.
 

FreedomOfSpeech

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Dec 4, 2019
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Cops get to see the worst of society, so maybe you should give them some leeway, when solving the problems you want them to solve. At least not obtruct them, seems like a bad financial decision.

But hey cops must be pure, like everyone else. Except those that wish to fuck you over, they are after justice.
 
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RoboFu

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Oct 10, 2017
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Cops should 100% be held to a higher standard, but I also understand that they see the same things day after day after day that end up the same way 99% of the time. But it only takes that one time it doesn’t.

the other problem is there is a narrative that the people causing crimes are not responsible. That’s it’s all made up. That a cop has no reason at all to be wary of people in certain communities in cities. Like you can’t just look at a map of murders and violent crimes and not see that they mostly happen in one area. No instead it’s because all cops are racist. 🤦‍♂️
 
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Tmack

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Sep 23, 2020
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It`s their duty. Their job.

A waitress will eventually spill drinks on their clients, drop food on the floor and break some glass, no matter how trained she/he is. Same apply for cops.

If your full time job is dealling with high tension situations, eventually you will fuck up. Cops needs training and put their best effort on doing what`s right, but they can`t live in fear of having their life destroyed just because they were trying to do their job.... if cops are treated like that eventually they will say fuck it and start to pretend to work to not get in those situation.
 

Kev Kev

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Oct 25, 2012
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OP drops "Police Brutality" at the beginning of the topic title, as if we are all in agreement on the idea that American police are brutal to begin with.

uh no we're the fuck not. rampant racism and brutality amongst american police officers is a false narrative. as usual, a small minority of every group of people makes the majority look bad. blacks, whites, browns, Australians (debatable :messenger_tears_of_joy: jkjk), police, politicians (not you), etc. every group has a small minority of shit birds assholes that make the rest look bad. your idea of "Police Brutality" is overblown, and the whole conception of your premise is based on a false idea peddled by people more rich and powerful than you, who continue to do that in order to help make themselves even more rich and more powerful than you.
 

HarryKS

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?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!

WHAT?!?!?!

I honestly don't if you are serious or just trolling with that question..
Nope. It's a general statement that represents the underlying nature of power dynamics. The police must be seen as being a lethal force in order to underpin its authority.

I'm not saying they should not do their best not to act decently, just that it is a fact of life that they need that level of influence to have any chance of succeeding at their task.
 
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LMJ

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Feb 7, 2019
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?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!

WHAT?!?!?!

I honestly don't if you are serious or just trolling with that question..

Nope its perfectly valid, cops depending on their location can deal with anything from jaywalking to armed assault...

Its a harsh reality that violent criminals WILL use lethal force, and unfortunately an answer to that issue need also be armed otherwise you have anarchy and innocent people die...

This year alone should be a clear example of how much the police are up against, activists, criminals and many of the governing body are turning on them all the time. Don't want any trouble with the officers then comply, we have badge cams and everyone has phones, pretty easy to film a cop if you think somethings up or power is being abused. The real issue is doing the filming and posting it online fueled by emotion rather than logic (easy to do if you feel threatened or angry) and sadly thats where the media comes in...

Half of the cities in this nation burned from rioters due to media hyperbole and exaggeration along with the usual political suspects. Where a police presence was absent people died and property burned. Where it was strong said riots were snuffed out, remember Chaz?

Police risk their lives on a daily basis, they need that resource, now if you ask me reform in the form of better training needs to occur.

Law Enforcement Police GIF by PORACalifornia
 
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NahaNago

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Nope. It's a general statement that represents the underlying nature of power dynamics. The police must be seen as being a lethal force in order to underpin its authority.

I'm not saying they should not do their best not to act decently, just that it is a fact of life that they need that level of influence to have any chance of succeeding at their task.
That unfortunately I think is mostly a U.S. thing. A cop should represent authority and the law. If lethal force is what is necessary to underpin its authority then something is wrong with that society.
 

oagboghi2

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Apr 15, 2018
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That unfortunately I think is mostly a U.S. thing. A cop should represent authority and the law. If lethal force is what is necessary to underpin its authority then something is wrong with that society.
In what countries are police not allowed to use force?
 
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NahaNago

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In what countries are police not allowed to use force?
I never said police aren't allowed to use lethal force. What I said or was trying to anyways was if the police need the threat of lethal force to get you to listen to them or obey the law then something is wrong with society.
 

oagboghi2

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I never said police aren't allowed to use lethal force. What I said or was trying to anyways was if the police need the threat of lethal force to get you to listen to them or obey the law then something is wrong with society.
What does that even mean? People break the law, sometimes violently. Do they represent "society" moreso than the people who don't?
 
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Winter's End

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Sep 10, 2018
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I was thinking about it today, and I feel like when it comes to police brutality, this site in particular has high standards for civilians but not cops. There's all these rules that civilians should follow, but it seems Gaf gives cops more leeway. Seems like the trained professionals shouldn't be excused for getting scared more than civilians do. I've just noticed "he was scared" is an acceptable defense for officers but not civilians. I was hoping for some opinions/perspectives on this subject.
People here are mostly american conservatives/right wing which means they think cops play on their team because of the dichotomous thinking going on over there which is an integral part of their culture nowadays.
So cops are never at fault or do anything wrong and if they clearly are they try to find evidence against it ("he was scared") or simply delude themself into thinking something is fishy.
This kind of thinking goes for pretty much everything now over there politically, there are no grey areas anymore and this obviously goes for both "teams". I don't think this is as bad in any other part in the world as it is in the states maybe the UK but they are basically a "colony" of the US for a while now in a lot of ways.
 
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gunslikewhoa

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People here are mostly american conservatives/right wing which means they think cops play on their team because of the dichotomous thinking going on over there which is an integral part of their culture nowadays.
So cops are never at fault or do anything wrong and if they clearly are they try to find evidence against it ("he was scared") or simply delude themself into thinking something is fishy.
This kind of thinking goes for pretty much everything now over there politically, there are no grey areas anymore and this obviously goes for both "teams". I don't think this is as bad in any other part in the world as it is in the states maybe the UK but they are basically a "colony" of the US for a while now in a lot of ways.

GTFO with your generalizations. Post fucking examples rather than your continual whining about this being a "right-wing shithole."

This is you and the OP:

 
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Nehezir

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I'm biased in favor of cops as an opponent of progressive movements.

Because I've been exposed to their bullshit and also counternarratives opposing them as a lot of my foundation, my knowledge that youths simply hate authority in general, and also because I generally have a positive track record with the police, tend to make me lean pro-cop.
 

QSD

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Police are generally to be respected because they have an extremely difficult and responsible job. In that sense, police have an almost 'sacred' duty, to keep the peace and protect those who would otherwise be victimized.

BUT on the flipside, if cops go bad/corrupt that represents an awful and deeply shameful breaking of this duty. Police brutality is an example of this, where a cop uses the authority of his position to take out his violent impulses on a suspect he needs to apprehended. This kind of behaviour, although understandable, should never be condoned or covered up. If it happens a cop needs to be suspended and needs to go through some kind of rehabilitation process before they're out on the beat again.
 
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Tmack

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I never said police aren't allowed to use lethal force. What I said or was trying to anyways was if the police need the threat of lethal force to get you to listen to them or obey the law then something is wrong with society.


The threat isnt someone with a gun pointing to your face dude.

The theat is a fundamental understanding that if you go over the line there will be consequences.

Name a single ordely society were there isnt a very srong notion that there will be reppercussion for bad actions... there isnt.
 
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NahaNago

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The threat isnt someone with a gun pointing to your face dude.

The theat is a fundamental understanding that if you go over the line there will be consequences.

Name a single ordely society were there isnt a very srong notion that there will be reppercussion for bad actions... there isnt.
This i totally agree with. So I don't understand where your going with this.
 

oagboghi2

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People here are mostly american conservatives/right wing which means they think cops play on their team because of the dichotomous thinking going on over there which is an integral part of their culture nowadays.
So cops are never at fault or do anything wrong and if they clearly are they try to find evidence against it ("he was scared") or simply delude themself into thinking something is fishy.
This kind of thinking goes for pretty much everything now over there politically, there are no grey areas anymore and this obviously goes for both "teams". I don't think this is as bad in any other part in the world as it is in the states maybe the UK but they are basically a "colony" of the US for a while now in a lot of ways.
All this from watching german television
 

Durask

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I'm biased in favor of cops as an opponent of progressive movements.

Because I've been exposed to their bullshit and also counternarratives opposing them as a lot of my foundation, my knowledge that youths simply hate authority in general, and also because I generally have a positive track record with the police, tend to make me lean pro-cop.

I am opposed to progressive movements because as the 20th century shows us, progressive movements lead to totalitarian nightmare. 'Police brutality" in the US is far preferable to the soviet gulag. Oh, and there was also plenty of non-political police brutality in Soviet bloc countries.
 

Nehezir

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I am opposed to progressive movements because as the 20th century shows us, progressive movements lead to totalitarian nightmare. 'Police brutality" in the US is far preferable to the soviet gulag. Oh, and there was also plenty of non-political police brutality in Soviet bloc countries.
Very Spot on.
 
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FreedomOfSpeech

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'Progress' so far that you can ignore reality and history's lessons.

Until reality bites you in the ass and you find yourself in a labor/death camp.
 

Petey-o

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There's plenty of systematic issues within the police forces in the US, but they definitely also have to deal with a significantly different populace compared to other western countries.
Obviously a large amount of cops are over-eager with their aggressiveness and excessive force, but given how many people in the country have guns I do have a certain understanding for it.

I do think much more substantial training for cops would greatly improve the police force in pretty much all aspects.
 

Zog

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Oct 24, 2017
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Ask yourself this question: if people weren't scared of being killed by the police, what would the point of police be?
When the government fears the people, there is freedom.
When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

That seemed an appropriate response to this post.
 

Torrent of Pork

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Every time I ever got pulled over I put all the windows down, turned the ignition off, and tossed the keys on the passenger seat where they can be seen. Hands on the wheel where the officer can see them, and spoke calmly with the officer while waiting for instructions. I inform him of the 9mm I keep in my glovebox if he asks for my registration, then ask him how he would like me to proceed, and hand him my CWP along with my driver's license without being asked.

Anything I can possibly do to put the officer at ease, and communicate with him that I'm not a psychopath, and my fat ass is lilly white. I know a lot of cops, and not one of the them wants to have an incident, they just want to go home safely.
 

Sub_Level

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Every time I ever got pulled over I put all the windows down, turned the ignition off, and tossed the keys on the passenger seat where they can be seen. Hands on the wheel where the officer can see them, and spoke calmly with the officer while waiting for instructions. I inform him of the 9mm I keep in my glovebox if he asks for my registration, then ask him how he would like me to proceed, and hand him my CWP along with my driver's license without being asked.

Anything I can possibly do to put the officer at ease, and communicate with him that I'm not a psychopath, and my fat ass is lilly white. I know a lot of cops, and not one of the them wants to have an incident, they just want to go home safely.

Yep the best thing you can do in a police interaction is exactly what you're told.

You may not like it in the moment, and even the police themselves may not follow protocol to the letter, but thats why we have this other group of people called lawyers.
 

joe_zazen

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Coverage is one sided today, so I take the side of the ones being used to push a narrative. If the roles were reversed, I'd be bitching about the filth pigs.
 

DeepEnigma

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Every time I ever got pulled over I put all the windows down, turned the ignition off, and tossed the keys on the passenger seat where they can be seen. Hands on the wheel where the officer can see them, and spoke calmly with the officer while waiting for instructions. I inform him of the 9mm I keep in my glovebox if he asks for my registration, then ask him how he would like me to proceed, and hand him my CWP along with my driver's license without being asked.

Anything I can possibly do to put the officer at ease, and communicate with him that I'm not a psychopath, and my fat ass is lilly white. I know a lot of cops, and not one of the them wants to have an incident, they just want to go home safely.
I did the same thing when I got pulled over on the way to Epcot one time, minus the keys part, but I did shut the car off. Ex was in the passenger seat, informed the officer that my 9MM was in the the glovebox as well, he asked if it was holstered, and I said yes, he then allowed her to get the registration out herself without removing the firearm. You comply and it changes the whole mood in the air more often than not.
 
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Nehezir

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When the government fears the people, there is freedom.
When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

That seemed an appropriate response to this post.
that works in some senses, but there's still the baseline element that the state is granted a monopoly on force by the citizenry, and enforces the law through the threat of that force.
Which is why it's considered a violation of this core dynamic of society to wield force against your fellow citizens. ESPECIALLY political force.

The most basic form of force is violence.
 
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