• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.

[Politico] Poll: Majority (63%) says Trump bears responsibility for Capitol riot

Nov 26, 2020
430
344
240
Then you can't read. I'm blaming everyone. They're all at fault. That's been the position from the start.

No, you're trying to create false equivalencies. Whataboutisms, in order to minimize the actions of Trump.
You're just hoping everyone will play along with this, or be too stupid to see what it is you're doing underneath the surface lol

What im trying to tell you is that there is a difference between commenting on a nationwide discourse and saying "if this isnt fixed then yeah this can happen" and an incited insurrection towards a civil institution.

Context does matter, all you're trying to do is say "they both did bad stuff" which essentially is an attempt to minimize this particular issue, which once again is leagues different in context and severity compared to anything you brought up.
 
Last edited:

Amibguous Cad

Member
Jul 25, 2008
4,724
28
1,075
I disagree, BLM and antifa WERE definetely invoved, but how does that change the fact that 50 people storming into the capitol means treason from the republican party, while democrat politicians encouraged, defended and even bailed rioters to the praise of the media? Call it whatever you want and point fingers at whoever you want, but hypocrisy is the name of the game, and you are part of it if you are so blind to call what happend last year a "peaceful protest" while calling this sedition or treason or even a riot, which it barely was. Both were wrong, but in your eyes and the media's and democrat's, only one is bad, the other one is just a righteous protest, even tho more chaos and destruction was caused.

Like, I don't know how to tell you that violence against elected officials is different than violence generally.

If you shot me, it would barely merit mentioning in the paper. If you shot the president, it would be worldwide news.

If you burn down a business in inner city St. Louis, it's a tragedy. If you burn down the capitol, it's an attempt to overthrow the United States government.

If antifa had stormed the capitol building with zipties after posting threats to assassinate Josh Hawley, as these insurrectionists did for Pelosi, you'd see a very similar response.
 
Last edited:

DryPancakes

Member
Jan 8, 2019
154
307
280
If antifa had stormed the capitol building with zipties after posting threats to assassinate Josh Hawley, as these insurrectionists did for Pelosi, you'd see a very similar response.
Apparently not because they've done similar things in the past and not a peep from the media, or you, instead they are praised for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: crazepharmacist

fart town usa

Member
May 31, 2009
2,564
870
1,035
midwest
No, you're trying to create false equivalencies. Whataboutisms, in order to minimize the actions of Trump.
You're just hoping everyone will play along with this, or be too stupid to see what it is you're doing underneath the surface lol

What im trying to tell you is that there is a difference between commenting on a nationwide discourse and saying "if this isnt fixed then yeah this can happen" and an incited insurrection towards a civil institution.

Context does matter, all you're trying to do is say "they both did bad stuff" which essentially is an attempt to minimize this particular issue, which once again is leagues different in context and severity compared to anything you brought up.
Gotta love the resistance mindset of being shocked that a bunch of beer gut maga flag waiving people were hoodwinked by a conspiracy theory, busted into the capital and scared congress but it's totally OK for cities to burn, people killed/attacked in the streets all summer long, politicians calling for violence, russian conspiracy theories, the president is literally worse than Hitler, etc.

It's not whataboutism, your John Oliver talking points have no power here. Thinking critically and recognizing the flaws in our media and political parties is something that shouldn't be considered partisan.
 

DryPancakes

Member
Jan 8, 2019
154
307
280
When did Antifa storm the capitol?
I said similar, not the exact same thing, as in targeting goverment buildings:

 
  • Like
Reactions: crazepharmacist

Dacon

Member
Apr 24, 2011
4,169
5,143
1,115
Houston, Texas
No, you're trying to create false equivalencies. Whataboutisms, in order to minimize the actions of Trump.
You're just hoping everyone will play along with this, or be too stupid to see what it is you're doing underneath the surface lol

What im trying to tell you is that there is a difference between commenting on a nationwide discourse and saying "if this isnt fixed then yeah this can happen" and an incited insurrection towards a civil institution.

Context does matter, all you're trying to do is say "they both did bad stuff" which essentially is an attempt to minimize this particular issue, which once again is leagues different in context and severity compared to anything you brought up.
It's official, you can't comprehend what you read. You completely and utterly failed to engage with my argument, continue parroting nonsense, and still push YOUR false equivalences. I will say yet again, and maybe it will take this time, I condemn ALL instances of radical political incitement, Trump or otherwise. Your insinuations that I support him are completely and utterly unfounded.

Keep riding the narrative, never engage anyone critically, ignore whatever point someone is making because Trump,
 
Last edited:
Nov 26, 2020
430
344
240
It's official, you can't comprehend what you read. You completely and utterly failed to engage with my argument, continue parroting nonsense, and still push YOUR false equivalences. I will say yet again, and maybe it will take this time, I condemn ALL instances of radical political incitement, Trump or otherwise. Your insinuations that I support him are completely and utterly unfounded.

Keep riding the narrative, never engage anyone critically, ignore whatever point someone is making because Trump,

It's official, you can't comprehend what you read. You completely and utterly failed to engage with my argument, continue parroting nonsense, and still push YOUR false equivalences. I will say yet again, and maybe it will take this time, I condemn ALL instances of radical political incitement, Trump or otherwise. Your insinuations that I support him are completely and utterly unfounded.

Keep riding the narrative, never engage anyone critically, ignore whatever point someone is making because Trump,

Except we're clearly disagreeing on whether or not what you brought up as an example was "radical political incitment". I dont think it was, at all.

You're assuming that's just a fact that I agree with lol.

A.k.a. the examples from pelosi and others were far different in context than what were seeing here. This was radical political incitment. That was not. clearly you have difficulty interpreting what is being said to you, and the argument you are having. No wonder i can probably...guess who you voted for, and why you post in this section, bad judgement/and analytical ability lol.

And the fact that you even tried to bring it up, is suspect. And an indication that your are indeed trying to create false equivalencies in order to equalize the two factions.

Once again, those instancies werent radical political incitement. At all. This was.
 
Last edited:
Nov 26, 2020
430
344
240
Gotta love the resistance mindset of being shocked that a bunch of beer gut maga flag waiving people were hoodwinked by a conspiracy theory, busted into the capital and scared congress but it's totally OK for cities to burn, people killed/attacked in the streets all summer long, politicians calling for violence, russian conspiracy theories, the president is literally worse than Hitler, etc.

It's not whataboutism, your John Oliver talking points have no power here. Thinking critically and recognizing the flaws in our media and political parties is something that shouldn't be considered partisan.
So you attribute any riots that happened and violence singularly to the """left"""? One political ideology?

Let me guess rodney king riots and katrina were the "left" too lol this capitol situation was far more objectively and purely political than riots that stem from a black guy getting killed by police.

Are you implying only the left gives a fuck about the black guy that got killed? That just makes republicans look bad....

Thats a major flaw in your thinking
 
Last edited:

Elysion

Member
Jan 11, 2020
192
324
260
I distinctly remember a poll a day or two after the events of the 6th, according to which 43% of Republicans actually approved of the storming of the capitol, as opposed to 41% or 42% who were against it. And didn’t Trump’s approval rating actually rise afterward? Or was that just some outlier poll?

Anyway, if I remember correctly the storming of the capitol had around 20% approval in the general population. That’s a fifth of the population that’s in favor of what the media calls a ‘coup’ or ‘insurrection’. That’s quite a lot. And from what I’ve seen on Twitter and elsewhere, it seems a lot of those Republicans and Trump supporters who disapprove of the storming do so only because Trump disavowed it, and because they think Antifa infiltrators are responsible, or they believe it was some kind of trap/false flag operation. I wouldn’t be surprised if a clear majority (>70%) of Trump voters would’ve been supportive of the whole thing if Trump hadn’t disavowed it afterward.

According to my quick calculations, that means it probably wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say that there are 30%-40% of the country who no longer have faith in the electoral process and the political institutions of the US. Which would line up with the 37% of this poll who don’t think Trump bears any responsibility. This doesn’t bode well for the long-term stability of the country.

However, I think the one thing that is preventing the US from just breaking up or descending into all-out civil war is the fact that, unlike in 1776 or 1861, America’s ruling class today is very united. There are no huge intra-elite divisions like those in the 1850s between southern cotton planters and northern industrial interests, or between local elites (George Washington was one of the richest men in north America) and the imperial ruling class in Britain in the 1770s. America’s contemporary elites basically agree about everything, and share the same disdain for the kind of ‘rabble’ that Trump managed to whip up.

While historical comparisons are overused (especially since most of them usually involve little more than ham-fisted comparisons to Nazi Germany), I actually think a plausible historical analogy that could show us America’s future quite well are the Troubles in northern Ireland between the late 60s and late 90s: a long-lasting, sectarian conflict that involved terrorism, assassinations, ethnic strife and low-level warfare on all sides. If we were to map the Irish conflict onto the US today, then the American right-wing would in this context be the Irish nationalists, while the US government would play a similar role as the British government did. Groups like Antifa might play a role similar to the loyalist, pro-British paramilitaries that sometimes worked together with the British government and security forces. The analogy isn’t perfect of course, but I think it’s much more apt than the 9000th comparison to the Nazis.
 
Oct 26, 2018
16,093
22,286
785
I didn't follow the riots aside from seeing video of people storming Capitol Hill.

But I do remember that thread where Trump said something about Jan 6 is a day of reckoning kind of thing. I didn't even watch his speeches.

I think the violence that day and blaming Trump really comes down to whether the initial rally message on Jan 6 was going to be a typical rally, or if his message weeks ago to rally on Jan 6 is meant to be a kick ass and storm the beaches kind of gathering.

If Trump meant it to be a big mob of supporters meeting for laughs and he does a last ditch sour grapes speech, you can't hold him for it if it turned for the worse on their own. But if Trump egged it on to crash the gates like zombies mobbing in World War Z that's totally different and uncalled for.
 

Dacon

Member
Apr 24, 2011
4,169
5,143
1,115
Houston, Texas
Except we're clearly disagreeing on whether or not what you brought up as an example was "radical political incitment". I dont think it was, at all.

You're assuming that's just a fact that I agree with lol.

A.k.a. the examples from pelosi and others were far different in context than what were seeing here. This was radical political incitment. That was not. clearly you have difficulty interpreting what is being said to you, and the argument you are having. No wonder i can probably...guess who you voted for, and why you post in this section, bad judgement/and analytical ability lol.

And the fact that you even tried to bring it up, is suspect. And an indication that your are indeed trying to create false equivalencies in order to equalize the two factions.

Once again, those instancies werent radical political incitement. At all. This was.
Then youre are a complete and utter hypocrite who is only concerned with defending your football team.

People literally fanning the flames of riots, defending looting and murder, saying people have no choice but to riot and harass government officials isn't incitement?

What a fucking joke.

We had fucking years of this nonsense, people insinuating that the 2016 election was illegitimate and doing everything they could to undermine our election and then this following nonsense for four years:

 
Last edited:
  • Strength
Reactions: Teletraan1
Dec 4, 2019
2,399
3,516
535
Poll 'results' are full of shit and exist only to prime you for their next steps.

Read a book on propaganda and 90% of it loses its power.
 
Nov 26, 2020
430
344
240
Then youre are a complete and utter hypocrite who is only concerned with defending your football team.

People literally fanning the flames of riots, defending looting and murder, saying people have no choice but to riot and harass government officials isn't incitement?

What a fucking joke.

We had fucking years of this nonsense, people insinuating that the 2016 election was illegitimate and doing everything they could to undermine our election and then this following nonsense for four years:


Actually I think "parties" are tribal monkey shit that people gravitate to in order to preserve their own ideologies and avoid actually listening to one another. A concept likely derived from a power that would prefer us to feel separated amongst each other rather than unify and listen to each stance with a detailed ear.

whereas I see that you think in terms of party, seeing as you immediately admitted that you saw this backlash as an attack on the "republican party" and how your entire fucking argument is simply trying to showcase that "the other side did bad stuff too". seeing as you posted this terrible video in the other thread that evilore made made lol your kneejerk reaction to the evilore thread just showing the transcript of the speech was to post this vid to once again say "but look at the DEMS!".

you also thought your smoking gun was this video indicating absolutely no context to these statements, we don't even know what they are referring to, or what argument was made, therefore we don't even know if they are isolated statements or something that would be connected to a specific event to even be referred to as incitement. what a terrible fucking post, to try and compare that to an actual singular directed instance of "be mad, go to this civil institution, and do this" by the president of the united states, predicated upon the concept of a "false election" that this president created.


also, question...do you honestly feel that the george floyd protests were primarily political?

do you honestly see the george floyd riots/violence as something that was the "lefts" thing? that's a huge fucking problem dude.

do you feel BLM is a political "left" thing? that's a huge fucking problem also.


and once again, when it comes to the claims about the 2016 election...well...dude, it was actually proven that Russia was meddling with the election; as stated by the U.S. Intelligence agency...so...that actually ended up being true lmao the claims had actual legitimacy, that were looked into and actually discovered.
It wasn't really nonsense at all because of that, are you forgetting this? lmao so technically, the democrats could've thrown way more of a fit than they did. Because that election was actually tampered with.


whereas with this, there is absolutely no legitimacy what so ever. Voter fraud was looked into and shown to be false numerous times over. yet despite that...here we are.

no wonder you have to hang out on GAF when it turned red, you would get fucked up on any more neutral political forum lol so you run here to your echo chamber scared to deal with anyone else. Why else would you conveniently end up on this political forum when it magically turned primarily right wing lol you probably hid back when GAF was liberal af.
 
Last edited:

Dacon

Member
Apr 24, 2011
4,169
5,143
1,115
Houston, Texas
Actually I think "parties" are tribal monkey shit that people gravitate to in order to preserve their own ideologies and avoid actually listening to one another. A concept likely derived from a power that would prefer us to feel separated amongst each other rather than unify and listen to each stance with a detailed ear.

Yet you continually go to bat for one party, while I decry them both.

whereas I see that you think in terms of party, seeing as you immediately admitted that you saw this backlash as an attack on the "republican party" and how your entire fucking argument is simply trying to showcase that "the other side did bad stuff too". seeing as you posted this terrible video in the other thread that evilore made made lol your kneejerk reaction to the evilore thread just showing the transcript of the speech was to post this vid to once again say "but look at the DEMS!".

You literally spent this whole thread talking about how horrible one party is versus the other dude, and now you're accusing me of exactly what youre doing.


you also thought your smoking gun was this video indicating absolutely no context to these statements, we don't even know what they are referring to, or what argument was made, therefore we don't even know if they are isolated statements or something that would be connected to a specific event to even be referred to as incitement. what a terrible fucking post, to try and compare that to an actual singular directed instance of "be mad, go to this civil institution, and do this" by the president of the united states, predicated upon the concept of a "false election" that this president created.

What context makes any of that ok? If what Trump said was incitement, then how are any of these statements calling for violence and defending them ok? What fucking context makes threatening a sitting president and calling for his assassination REPEATEDLY ok?

also, question...do you honestly feel that the george floyd protests were primarily political?

Of course they were used as a political tool. Why do you think someone on CNN could stand in front of a fucking burning building as people trash property and make the statement "This is a mostly peaceful protest". The media literally ignored the fucking pandemic, and insisted that it was ok for hundreds of people to clutter in the streets together despite the risk to minority populations, they themselves reported.

do you honestly see the george floyd riots/violence as something that was the "lefts" thing? that's a huge fucking problem dude.

The "left". I'd say it was primarily democrats politicizing the situation. Whether you count that as the left is on you. Some people make some distinctions in there.

do you feel BLM is a political "left" thing? that's a huge fucking problem also.

People have literally called for making BLM a political party.

and once again, when it comes to the claims about the 2016 election...well...dude, it was actually proven that Russia was meddling with the election; as stated by the U.S. Intelligence agency...so...that actually ended up being true lmao the claims had actual legitimacy, that were looked into and actually discovered.

Yeah, Russia interfered with some social media accounts and memes. How did that constitute the narrative of our entire election being hijacked, as was stated, and years of saying Donald Trump was an illegitimate president who colluded with Russia to steal the election?

It wasn't really nonsense at all because of that, are you forgetting this? lmao so technically, the democrats could've thrown way more of a fit than they did. Because that election was actually tampered with.

Millions of dollars, hundreds of people interviewed, and they found no evidence of anything that affected the election. No fraud, no collusion between Trump and Russia. Nothing justifying years of statements about the election being stolen. Hillary literally spent years saying the election was stolen from her on the news, in books, and interviews on talk shows. Are you forgetting THAT?


whereas with this, there is absolutely no legitimacy what so ever. Voter fraud was looked into and shown to be false numerous times over. yet despite that...here we are.

Voter fraud was also found in several cases, which is what made people want more investigations, some of which are still ongoing. The whole point, which was pointed out by mainstream media repeatedly was there was no evidence of "widespread voter fraud", because voter fraud is present in every election. Which is why the question was whether or not there was enough fraud to affect the outcome of the election, of which there was none presented that was convincing enough to anyone outside of the most devout Trump follower.

no wonder you have to hang out on GAF when it turned red, you would get fucked up on any more neutral political forum lol so you run here to your echo chamber scared to deal with anyone else. Why else would you conveniently end up on this political forum when it magically turned primarily right wing lol you probably hid back when GAF was liberal af.

You're literally having a childish tantrum here, Gaf was NEVER an echo chamber as has been pointed out repeatedly. Gaf isn't "red" and probably never will be. We have a wide variety of users with different opinions that challenge each other on everything on the regular. It's like you don't even pay attention to the discussions that take place here. Evilore himself has pushed back against many conspiratorial narratives, as have I.

You insult me and rant and rave in a manner much akin to Trump himself. You're still here trying to paint me as some kind of Trump supporting red hat when I'm nothing of the sort. I don't support Trump, I never have. I blame all of the politicians and their double standards.

While I think it's complete nonsense to say the man incited a riot after REPEATEDLY calling for peace and law and order at every turn, I DO blame him for collecting all of these people together and riling them up over nonsense. For months he ineffectually pursued his narrative while simultaneously failing to procure enough support, and evidence of widespread voter fraud. The media mocked, belittled and dehumanized these people for years, adding more and more fuel to the fire. Anyone could see that things were leading to a breaking point.

After seven months of rioting, murder, battery, arson and harassments, why wouldn't people feel emboldened by the way people defended, abetted and encouraged this behavior?

Dude I've been active on GAF going back way before the split, what are you even talking about and how is that relevant? You can't even have a discussion without resulting to childish, inflammatory banter and making judgements of someone you don't even know. You have no leg to stand on here.

GAF didn't magically turn right wing, it did lose some of it's more extremist liberal types over a ridiculous scandal involving Evilore's personal affairs that was none of those poster's business to begin with. They had a tantrum, condemned the man off of hearsay and abandoned the board to make their own, which it sounds like you'd be more at home at since you think this board is too "red" lmfao.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DryPancakes

The Shift

Banned
Sep 6, 2009
1,059
931
1,010
The Histrionic Trump Years - where there was nary an adult in the room between the Executive, Congress, Big Tech, MSM, Pundits et al
 
  • LOL
Reactions: fart town usa

BlueAlpaca

Member
Feb 6, 2018
322
454
360
Has this been posted? I didn't want to create a thread for it, god this pissed me off:


Basically the bill sets the stage for a purge of law enforcement under the guise of 'white supremacy' and directs all resources to fighting right-wing terrorists while protecting the left.
 

Dacon

Member
Apr 24, 2011
4,169
5,143
1,115
Houston, Texas
Has this been posted? I didn't want to create a thread for it, god this pissed me off:


Basically the bill sets the stage for a purge of law enforcement under the guise of 'white supremacy' and directs all resources to fighting right-wing terrorists while protecting the left.

I made a thread about the ACLU's response to this nonsense, which surprisingly was appropriate.
 
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: BlueAlpaca

DryPancakes

Member
Jan 8, 2019
154
307
280
whereas I see that you think in terms of party, seeing as you immediately admitted that you saw this backlash as an attack on the "republican party" and how your entire fucking argument is simply trying to showcase that "the other side did bad stuff too".

One of the big arguments has been hipocrisy, from media, democrats and a big chunk on the left, so yes "the other side did bad stuff too", if only you could apply moral judgement consistently. Speaking of hipocrisy, out of context is a tactic used against Trump consistently, while the context of those clips is clear.

It doesn't matter if it's political or not, violence is violence, and it's wrong either way, we recognize that, while most of the democrats want to pretend it didnt happen and even worse take the moral high ground when by their own inpeachment logic, they contributed to it.

 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: fart town usa

fart town usa

Member
May 31, 2009
2,564
870
1,035
midwest
So you attribute any riots that happened and violence singularly to the """left"""? One political ideology?

Let me guess rodney king riots and katrina were the "left" too lol this capitol situation was far more objectively and purely political than riots that stem from a black guy getting killed by police.

Are you implying only the left gives a fuck about the black guy that got killed? That just makes republicans look bad....

Thats a major flaw in your thinking
No. I was calling out the inconsistencies with anyone on the Left who are shocked and outraged over the Capital Hill riots but are totally OK with the violence and destruction we've seen in major cities the last 4 years, especially this summer.

I don't agree with any of the destruction and I'm not a partisan. For lack of a better description, I'm very Left leaning but I'm not "woke" and don't buy into any of the critical race theory (or critical theory in general) nonsense that our current Left culture preaches. Look at any of my comments here concerning politics and you'll see that I don't advocate for much of anything. I just want people to think critically. It's OK to be supportive of either political party but in doing so, you owe it to yourself to recognize and be honest about their flaws. That's subjective of course but partisanship from either side is something that holds people back and I just try to get people to maybe think about that aspect of their views. I try not to be too inflammatory in my comments because I think political arguments are generally a waste of time. I've gathered this mindset as someone who was an active duty vet for 8 years, a poli-sci/international studies degree holder (worthless paper).

Not all of the above is directed specifically at you, just clarifying my thoughts since you replied to me.
 

fart town usa

Member
May 31, 2009
2,564
870
1,035
midwest
One of the big arguments has been hipocrisy, from media, democrats and a big chunk on the left, so yes "the other side did bad stuff too", if only you could apply moral judgement consistently. Speaking of hipocrisy, out of context is a tactic used against Trump consistently, while the context of those clips is clear.

It doesn't matter if it's political or not, violence is violence, and it's wrong either way, we recognize that, while most of the democrats want to pretend it didnt happen and even worse take the moral high ground when by their own inpeachment logic, they contributed to it.

Right. That's my main issue. Just be consistent and honest. I have more respect for people who outright acknowledge their calls for violence than I do for people who point the finger and ignore the violence that they themselves advocate for.
 

SF Kosmo

...please disperse...
Jul 7, 2020
5,834
6,944
695
I distinctly remember a poll a day or two after the events of the 6th, according to which 43% of Republicans actually approved of the storming of the capitol, as opposed to 41% or 42% who were against it. And didn’t Trump’s approval rating actually rise afterward? Or was that just some outlier poll?
Outlier, Rasmussen showed it go up by like 1%, everyone else showed it crater like 5-8%. And Rasmussen now shows it down a couple points as well.
 
Last edited: