• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Polygon article on JonTron and A Hat in Time (Humble Bundle ... (READ MOD POST)

Status
Not open for further replies.

PokéKong

Member
Feb 13, 2011
1,677
0
0
Portland, OR
I feel like you just answered your own question. It's a small cameo and it's not common knowledge, most people are completely unaware. This controversy has very little to actually do with them and making any kind of statements will cause unnecessary aftermaths that I'm sure a fledgling team of less than 10 would not like to endure.

Did I? It wasn't common knowledge BEFORE the game was imminently coming out, but now it increasingly is. I found out from the initial thread pointing it out here, the GameXplain video the thread pointed to, and now there is a Polygon article about it, and this subsequent active thread we are posting in now. A statement would be damage control for what is now rapidly spreading knowledge of this, but my question was why they wouldn't have prevented this stain on their game from ever becoming a blip on the radar to begin with.

Playtonic set a good precedent, they did the sensible thing and correct me if I'm wrong but I recall the reaction was by and large very positive. All backlash in that case was pretty pathetic and laughable. GfB not following in their example in this extremely similar circumstance raises an eyebrow as far up as I can physically muster.
 

ArtHands

Member
Oct 14, 2012
10,403
548
945
www.arthands-vr.com
You may not be a white supremacist for supporting this game, but continuing to support a game while a vocal white nationalist appears in it means that you don’t think it’s *that* big of a deal

You might not support white supremacy but you’re definitely not opposing it

The whole game is not made entirely by white supremacists.
 

Alucrid

Banned
May 30, 2009
46,834
0
0
The whole game is not made entirely by white supremacists.

they never said it was?

Yes, however the difference here is that Subway was the face of the company at the time, key to their public presence and mindshare, referenced repeatedly by name.

JonTron is just a cameo that is, to my knowledge, never mentioned by name (other than certainly in the credits) and from what I can tell never mentioned on their website, Kickstarter, or in any form of advertising after the initial announcement that he'd be in the game (which was before he made those infamous remarks). I totally could be wrong about this though so if someone calls me out on that I'll respectfully retract this statement.

regardless of the scope, he's still the largest name attached to the project.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Aug 2, 2015
4,967
637
495
It’s not a game on their store, it’s a game they published. Handling issues like this is what publishers do. They have a financial interest to protect in the game after all
They published it? On Steam it displayed as self-published. Weird.
 

serenewarfare

Banned
Jul 17, 2013
20,766
1
0
I think you might be overestimating how many people are actually made about the silence and underestimating how many people will be mad at his removal.

If removing the voice of a guy like that is gonna upset anyone, then you probably shouldn't be courting those people anyways.
 

Benzychenz

Member
Aug 2, 2013
11,361
0
0
Australia
Game looks great.

But I can't in good faith buy it when they can't even issue a simple statement. Just a "we don't support racism but a deal was made and it's too late to make changes now" would suffice.
The silence speaks volumes on their stance on the issue.

Maybe I'll download it when it's free on PS+ in a year.
 

Diprosalic

Banned
May 27, 2010
22,994
0
780
I don't blame people who buy this nor the employees of the developer but i do blame the leaders of this company. They either support what he said or are cool with it as long as it doesn't affect sales which would make them cowards. I can't support them in either scenario.


I will gladly appologize if there was a situation where they couldn't speak up due to unknown circumstances. Until then i won't buy it.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 28, 2014
3,887
0
0
I funded this game via Kickstarter, way before it was even known it would clearly have voice acting. I wonder if games, going forward, will distance themselves from Youtuber cameos to avoid a milkshake duck scenario.
That they are staying mum on it, even when Polygon comes asking, makes it clear they have decided to not repeat what YL did.
If Jontron weren't a complete asshat, he would have asked for his lines to be removed, so more people can enjoy the game unhindered.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
May 4, 2005
16,537
6,199
1,920
33
Germany
www.gaming-universe.de
You may not be a white supremacist for supporting this game, but continuing to support a game while a vocal white nationalist appears in it means that you don’t think it’s *that* big of a deal

You might not support white supremacy but you’re definitely not opposing it

I agree that buying a game that a person who has said racist stuff is absolutely not a means of opposing racism, but it also not an indicator that one thinks it is not a big deal. But there are different ways to deal with such a thing, I, for instance, personally, separate personal reaction to a person and reception of professional work, especially if it is a team effort. I condemn what Jontron said and I would, in a personal conversation, be very aggressively debating such vile statements with him. It would also make it supremely unlikely I'd be friends with him.

However, as long as the product I am buying is not itself distributing racist positions or is directly used to fund racist actions, I see no reason for me to change my buying behaviour. In fact, 13% of Germans voted for a Nazi party, 50% of US people voted for a racist leader of the country, about 40% of the Austrian people voted for a Nazi president, which tells me that in any team project with a significant amount of workers in a western country, I can expect that some racist idiots are among the team. (Which is not to say this is necessarily the case, but without additional information it appears much more likely that it is the case than that it is not)

I think it is important to take a stance against their positions wherever they are spouted, but boycotting team efforts because you get to know what previously already was to be expected: That someone working on it has racist views, does not seem rational to me.

Personal note: I am trying to improve my means of expressing thoughts on such topcis and especially to make sure to not talk down other people, as I was explained previous postings were perceived by many. If someone feels I am arguing too aggressively towards him or feels talked down by my posting, it would be great if you could tell me.
 

Tranqueris

Banned
May 15, 2014
1,991
0
0
Man, even if you think it’s fine that they didn’t remove JonTron, I think “Why do these people keep overreacting over racism” is kinda fucked. LIKE HE IS SUPER COOL WITH ETHNIC CLEANSING, Y’ALL.

I mean sure he said he's in support of ethnic cleansing but how do we know what's really in his heart? I just don't know guys, I just don't know. If only we had more evidence. /s

Also all these "I'm sure they'd love to do the right thing but they don't wanna anger neo nazi's and the game might not make as much money, so their silence is totally fine" posts.

Jesus Christ.
 
Jul 20, 2014
6,055
0
0
Bought this earlier and played it for a bit. Super fun right from the start but I sent in a refund request. A large part of me feels uncomfortable supporting a company who might support or agree with the disgusting stuff that JonTron said. However, the product itself doesn't push or fund racists beliefs and buying the game doesn't support JonTron. Think I'll take some time to think it over and consider repurchasing when a statement has been made.
 
Jun 5, 2013
12,775
0
0
I think it is important to take a stance against their positions wherever they are spouted, but boycotting team efforts because you get to know what previously already was to be expected: That someone working on it has racist views, does not seem rational to me.
this makes little to no sense. Don't stand up to things because someone with white supremacist views is to be expected to be involved? What so we should just accept that as the norm?
 

Lanrutcon

Member
Feb 19, 2014
10,956
5,790
770
Irrelevant
Game looks interesting, like something I'd give to my nephew to play. Looks harmless enough, even if Jon's stance really isn't.

I'd really like to hear a statement from the devs on this one.
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Jul 28, 2016
323
4
300
If you really want to compare values, it's supporting an (excellent looking) platformer of the kind some people would like to be more of and a small team that did not make a statement VS not supporting a game having as voice cameo a youtuber who made supremacist statements.

So people just make their choice depending on their values and where they put that "fence" that divides the masses into "acceptable" and "unacceptable". Do you put the fence dab in the middle, or do you have some leniency?

Or make choices based on speculations, and that seems a little less fair, but hey, no statement = interpretation. Does their silence implicit something? For me it implicits a paralysing fear of saying anything that could spiral out of control (do they not have a PR counselor? they'd need to hire one presto), but for others it implicits either "I don't care enough (use blabber mode)" and some people even interpret it as an extreme "I stand by it".


In the previous thread I posted that removing John's voice cameo from the game but not making an announcement out of it would be the best way to anger the least amount of people. Now that it's coming out, the voice's still there so a statement would be the next best thing.
Also the game is fully moddable right? Is removing voices etc. as simple as modifying a .ini text file?
 

MrCunningham

Member
Jan 12, 2012
18,679
516
775
BC Canada
If it comes to Switch I'll buy it, I think there are better things to boycott than JonTron in 2017.

The whole thing seems way overblown to me. I am in the "don't really care" category. I'm not going to boycott some indie game because a guest voice actor said a few questionable things that flared up some people while the title was still under development.
 

Zeouterlimits

Member
Apr 2, 2007
16,810
0
0
Ireland
www.skynet.ie
Let me salvage this post, I think it was the most important one in that thread.

Code:
You can find many search results about the game that mention my name. Just search for:
"a hat in time" "peter valencia"

This is my art portfolio, showing off just a few of the many assets I made for the game.
[url]http://dropr.com/pvalencia/90246/a_h...me/+?p=1175265[/url]

I was the only one on the team who had the skills to create Snatcher in 3D. Snatcher was originally just a 2D sprite that was overlayed on the environment, but because of certain cutscenes he later had to be evolved into a full 3D animated mesh. However, this required shape key (also known as morph target) animation, something no one else on the team at the time knew how to do. I also created the pillow pile (the one you can "swim" in) in Hat Kid's spaceship, using a physics simulation. None of my colleagues knew how to do that either.

Yet despite all that, the company remained quiet after JonTron called people like me lazy welfare thieves that should be kept out of the gene pool. Not even a measly tweet saying they disagree with him.

Regardless of how much money they end up making, they're going to have to live with the consequences of this for years to come. They've now established an audience firmly within neo-Nazi and alt-right circles, and they'll have to constantly avoid offending that crowd in the future to stay in business. Best of luck with that, Gears for Breakfast.
This is a good post.
 
Jun 17, 2015
876
2
0
Illinois, USA
The whole thing seems way overblown to me. I am in the "don't really care" category. I'm not going to boycott some indie game because a guest voice actor said a few questionable things that flared up some people while the title was still under development.
Extreme racism is not “a few questionable things.” Trying to downplay that is bullshit.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Aug 24, 2010
12,116
6
810
This game wasn't on my radar until this controversy and it's right up my alley. I won't be buying it but I wonder how many others that just heard of it will. I'm almost ashamed to admit that I used to like JonTron. He's so vile he's actually making me want to like Banjo Nuts & Bolts just to oppose him.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
May 4, 2005
16,537
6,199
1,920
33
Germany
www.gaming-universe.de
PokéKong;251112830 said:
Did I? It wasn't common knowledge BEFORE the game was imminently coming out, but now it increasingly is. I found out from the initial thread pointing it out here, the GameXplain video the thread pointed to, and now there is a Polygon article about it, and this subsequent active thread we are posting in now. A statement would be damage control for what is now rapidly spreading knowledge of this, but my question was why they wouldn't have prevented this stain on their game from ever becoming a blip on the radar to begin with.

Playtonic set a good precedent, they did the sensible thing and correct me if I'm wrong but I recall the reaction was by and large very positive. All backlash in that case was pretty pathetic and laughable. GfB not following in their example in this extremely similar circumstance raises an eyebrow as far up as I can physically muster.

Around here, the reaction was positive, but if you take a look at how the game was treated at Steam and also how the reaction was at the Playtonic Forum also among a lot of people who were registered long before the controversy (this is important, because of course, one should filter out deliberately opened troll accounts), I think it is not fair to say the reaction was predominantly positive. Financially, I feel it is quite safe to assume that it hurt the game overall, assuming that not a lot of press would have reported very strongly about it - which I think is unlikely to happen, because there were no positive articles about this on any site I frequent - and people who wanted Jontron gone wouldn't have resorted to attacking the game in a similar way as Jontron supporters did after the decision.

this makes little to no sense. Don't stand up to things because someone with white supremacist views is to be expected to be involved? What so we should just accept that as the norm?
First, I do not want to tell you what you should do, it is just explaining my rationale. Second, to explain it maybe a bit better: If you are not buying A Hat in Time (or Yooka-Laylee before, had they not removed Jontron), this is not really perceivable as a clear stance against racism, because there can be a lot of reasons not to buy a game, so it does not deliver a message about racism to the development studio. On the other hand, if you buy games by Ubisoft, EA and Activision (for instance), you are talking team sizes in excess of 100 western developers. This makes almost certain that there are racists among them: Trump voters, AfD voters, FPÖ voters, Wilders voters, SVP voters and so on. So the only difference is that you have absolute certainty in one case over almost certainty in the other case, which is making it hard for me to understand how it is coherent.

Still, I think it is important to stand up against such stances, I just do not feel that this is a good means (for me) to do so: It does not strike me as effective, nor fair if it is a team effort with many other team members who may also have totally different viewpoints, ones with which I may align with very well. So my preferred way of opposing viewpoints I do not consider acceptable (among which racism is a very prominent example, naturally), is to directly engage with the viewpoints themselves and to condemn and discuss them, rather than to resort to measures that predominantly hurt people disassociated with these expressions and are hard to identify as a stance against the original claims.

I see and respect that other people may evaluate this differently, but I think it is not correct to say, just because one does not like this means of opposing racism, one does not oppose it at all.
 

Messofanego

Banned
Oct 31, 2011
46,356
1
0
UK
twitter.com
It's a shame the devs haven't responded in the 6 months that they've been tweeted at ever since JonTron's massive racism burst onto the scene, that kind of silence speaks volumes.
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
Sep 19, 2012
3,929
0
0
The whole thing seems way overblown to me. I am in the "don't really care" category. I'm not going to boycott some indie game because a guest voice actor said a few questionable things that flared up some people while the title was still under development.

"few questionable things". huh? I'd recommend you look into that a little bit if you want to understand why some people are so uncomfortable here.

Usually when people start arguing about non-whites 'diluting the gene pool' we've moved well past 'questionable' and into actual genocidal territory
 

Protome

Member
Jul 23, 2011
5,578
1
0
This game wasn't on my radar until this controversy and it's right up my alley. I won't be buying it but I wonder how many others will. I'm almost ashamed to admit that I used to like JonTron. He's so vile he's actually making me want to like Banjo Nuts & Bolts just to opposed him.
You shouldn't be. His earlier videos in particular are genuinely great. He helped shape what that style of videogame coverage was like on YouTube. I just uh... Wouldn't watch them now because obviously he gets ad revenue from them. It's always a shame when a reprehensable person also makes great things.
 
Jun 17, 2015
876
2
0
Illinois, USA
You shouldn't be. His earlier videos in particular are genuinely great. He helped shape what that style of videogame coverage was like on YouTube. I just uh... Wouldn't watch them now because obviously he gets ad revenue from them. It's always a shame when a reprehensable person also makes great things.
I definitely liked a lot of his older content when I was younger. His true nature honestly makes me feel extremely justified in thinking his content took a big downward spiral after a while.
 

Earth

Banned
Apr 10, 2015
79
0
0
The whole thing seems way overblown to me. I am in the "don't really care" category. I'm not going to boycott some indie game because a guest voice actor said a few questionable things that flared up some people while the title was still under development.

Look here:

Hi! This is who you're defending.







But I'm sure everyone else are the bad ones. Just being mean and throwing labels at everyone.

Questionable is putting it very lightly; this is really fucked up.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Aug 24, 2010
12,116
6
810
You shouldn't be. His earlier videos in particular are genuinely great. He helped shape what that style of videogame coverage was like on YouTube. I just uh... Wouldn't watch them now because obviously he gets ad revenue from them. It's always a shame when a reprehensable person also makes great things.

Makes me wonder which other online personalities I like are also pieces of shit. I'm willing to bet there's a few. Sometimes it takes time but those opinions find a way of seeping out sooner or later.

The whole thing seems way overblown to me. I am in the "don't really care" category. I'm not going to boycott some indie game because a guest voice actor said a few questionable things that flared up some people while the title was still under development.

For me personally, it's the devs silence which I find to be the main problem at this point, it's speaking volumes on their behalf whether they mean to or no and it's leading people to an obvious conclusion. It costs them nothing to put out a short statement on Twitter.
 

Messofanego

Banned
Oct 31, 2011
46,356
1
0
UK
twitter.com
First, I do not want to tell you what you should do, it is just explaining my rationale. Second, to explain it maybe a bit better: If you are not buying A Hat in Time (or Yooka-Laylee before, had they not removed Jontron), this is not really perceivable as a clear stance against racism, because there can be a lot of reasons not to buy a game, so it does not deliver a message about racism to the development studio. On the other hand, if you buy games by Ubisoft, EA and Activision (for instance), you are talking team sizes in excess of 100 western developers. This makes almost certain that there are racists among them: Trump voters, AfD voters, FPÖ voters, Wilders voters, SVP voters and so on. So the only difference is that you have absolute certainty in one case over almost certainty in the other case, which is making it hard for me to understand how it is coherent.

Still, I think it is important to stand up against such stances, I just do not feel that this is a good means (for me) to do so: It does not strike me as effective, nor fair if it is a team effort with many other team members who may also have totally different viewpoints, ones with which I may align with very well. So my preferred way of opposing viewpoints I do not consider acceptable (among which racism is a very prominent example, naturally), is to directly engage with the viewpoints themselves and to condemn and discuss them, rather than to resort to measures that predominantly hurt people disassociated with these expressions and are hard to identify as a stance against the original claims.

I see and respect that other people may evaluate this differently, but I think it is not correct to say, just because one does not like this means of opposing racism, one does not oppose it at all.

Didn't ModBot just say in the first post not to impugn people because they're boycotting this game?

You're allowed to boycott the game. You're allowed to not boycott the game. You're allowed to engage with people who explain their reasoning. You're not allowed to yell at or impugn people because they don't take the same position as you. You're not allowed to throw personal insults.

What form of protest would you take instead if you're so gung-ho about criticising boycotts on how they're not effective in anything?
 
Jun 5, 2013
12,775
0
0
Around here, the reaction was positive, but if you take a look at how the game was treated at Steam and also how the reaction was at the Playtonic Forum also among a lot of people who were registered long before the controversy (this is important, because of course, one should filter out deliberately opened troll accounts), I think it is not fair to say the reaction was predominantly positive. Financially, I feel it is quite safe to assume that it hurt the game overall, assuming that not a lot of press would have reported very strongly about it - which I think is unlikely to happen, because there were no positive articles about this on any site I frequent - and people who wanted Jontron gone wouldn't have resorted to attacking the game in a similar way as Jontron supporters did after the decision.

First, I do not want to tell you what you should do, it is just explaining my rationale. Second, to explain it maybe a bit better: If you are not buying A Hat in Time (or Yooka-Laylee before, had they not removed Jontron), this is not really perceivable as a clear stance against racism, because there can be a lot of reasons not to buy a game, so it does not deliver a message about racism to the development studio. On the other hand, if you buy games by Ubisoft, EA and Activision (for instance), you are talking team sizes in excess of 100 western developers. This makes almost certain that there are racists among them: Trump voters, AfD voters, FPÖ voters, Wilders voters, SVP voters and so on. So the only difference is that you have absolute certainty in one case over almost certainty in the other case, which is making it hard for me to understand how it is coherent.

Still, I think it is important to stand up against such stances, I just do not feel that this is a good means (for me) to do so: It does not strike me as effective, nor fair if it is a team effort with many other team members who may also have totally different viewpoints, ones with which I may align with very well. So my preferred way of opposing viewpoints I do not consider acceptable (among which racism is a very prominent example, naturally), is to directly engage with the viewpoints themselves and to condemn and discuss them, rather than to resort to measures that predominantly hurt people disassociated with these expressions and are hard to identify as a stance against the original claims.

I see and respect that other people may evaluate this differently, but I think it is not correct to say, just because one does not like this means of opposing racism, one does not oppose it at all.
This point was pretty well argued I'd say a page before your posts in the last thread and it's still not a good argument.

The default state for a game is not being purchased, don't forget that. Obviously when it comes out that X is a white supremacist I will not be buying that Y game that they worked on regardless of what the game is. It's not some grand stand, it's just a reason for me not to buy their game.
 

Chauzu

Member
Jan 8, 2017
840
0
0
I can sympathize with the devs staying quiet through all this. Playtonic rightfully got a lot of praise on GAF, but the overall reception to the Jontron situation in many ways completely dominated early YL conversation instead of focusing on the actual game. I can’t say this situation is making me want to buy the game, but I imagine most potential buyers *are* unaware of this situation and the devs doing anything will just lead to headlines and more people finding out. This is defo pretty scummy, but I do sympathize with you not wanting your game release to become another internet spread Jontron conversation.
 

Protome

Member
Jul 23, 2011
5,578
1
0
I definitely liked a lot of his older content when I was younger. His true nature honestly makes me feel extremely justified in thinking his content took a big downward spiral after a while.
Yeah I didn't really like anything he did after he left Game Grumps. His increase in production quality seemed to coincide with a decrease in overall quality which sucked. Makes it easier to not support his newer stuff though.
 

SuperBattleGenius

Neo Member
Mar 2, 2017
14
0
0
Oh wow I actually hadn't seen the "if minority is a great thing why does no one seem to want to be in it." That is fucking disgusting.

Proud Asian-American here saying that America is still a great place and not to let soggy buttholes like this clown try and take that away.
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
Sep 19, 2012
3,929
0
0
Around here, the reaction was positive, but if you take a look at how the game was treated at Steam and also how the reaction was at the Playtonic Forum also among a lot of people who were registered long before the controversy (this is important, because of course, one should filter out deliberately opened troll accounts), I think it is not fair to say the reaction was predominantly positive. Financially, I feel it is quite safe to assume that it hurt the game overall, assuming that not a lot of press would have reported very strongly about it - which I think is unlikely to happen, because there were no positive articles about this on any site I frequent - and people who wanted Jontron gone wouldn't have resorted to attacking the game in a similar way as Jontron supporters did after the decision.

First, I do not want to tell you what you should do, it is just explaining my rationale. Second, to explain it maybe a bit better: If you are not buying A Hat in Time (or Yooka-Laylee before, had they not removed Jontron), this is not really perceivable as a clear stance against racism, because there can be a lot of reasons not to buy a game, so it does not deliver a message about racism to the development studio. On the other hand, if you buy games by Ubisoft, EA and Activision (for instance), you are talking team sizes in excess of 100 western developers. This makes almost certain that there are racists among them: Trump voters, AfD voters, FPÖ voters, Wilders voters, SVP voters and so on. So the only difference is that you have absolute certainty in one case over almost certainty in the other case, which is making it hard for me to understand how it is coherent.

Still, I think it is important to stand up against such stances, I just do not feel that this is a good means (for me) to do so: It does not strike me as effective, nor fair if it is a team effort with many other team members who may also have totally different viewpoints, ones with which I may align with very well. So my preferred way of opposing viewpoints I do not consider acceptable (among which racism is a very prominent example, naturally), is to directly engage with the viewpoints themselves and to condemn and discuss them, rather than to resort to measures that predominantly hurt people disassociated with these expressions and are hard to identify as a stance against the original claims.

I see and respect that other people may evaluate this differently, but I think it is not correct to say, just because one does not like this means of opposing racism, one does not oppose it at all.

A while back I remember a comment about this issue that I think is important to remember. JonTron isn't is this game because he's a talented voice actor. It's because he's JonTron.

This makes it sort of a different issue to just say 'well there are terrible people working on any game'. Perhaps so but their involvement in the project goes beyond their celebrity and personality, perhaps it's easier then to separate appreciation of their work and discust at their veiws.

In this case it really isn't possible to do so. When a celebrity is included in something it's very difficult to separate that work from their public persona. The only reason JonTron is in the game is because of his public persona and that persona is hateful and toxic.

I think that's why there's a fundamental difference, you can't really separate his work from his public persona because his work is his public persona. Otherwise there would be no reason to include him at all
 
Jul 26, 2013
2,005
0
0
I like 3d platformers but this game is the definition of non-essential. If they can't be bothered to set the record straight, I can't be bothered to support their game.

It's not like I'm starving for 3D platformers. Mario is coming.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
May 4, 2005
16,537
6,199
1,920
33
Germany
www.gaming-universe.de
Didn't ModBot just say in the first post not to impugn people because they're boycotting this game?
It was not my intention to impugn anyone, but in my evaluation if I use a certain measure for my behaviour, an analysis of if I think it is an effective one plays a role. How can I express this properly in a way you do not feel impugned?



What form of protest would you take instead if you're so gung-ho about criticising boycotts on how they're not effective in anything?
Answering videos and tweets, articles and postings discussing his claims and to not invite him to political discussions (where it applies). Potentially banning him if he is part of a community where I have the authority to do so. If I have a problem with him doing work on a product, tell the developers about this. These are the things off the top of my head that I would choose.
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
Sep 19, 2012
3,929
0
0
Look here:



Questionable is putting it very lightly; this is really fucked up.

Honestly people should know that's not really the worst stuff at all. I'm sorry I don't feel like going digging for the post that summarises it all from when it all happened but someone should consider bringing it out so people can understand the issue better
 
May 31, 2010
3,668
124
885
34
Durham, England
www.infinitedaremo.co.uk
Would never have heard of this game before the drama but it actually looks pretty fun. I personally wouldn't slight an entire development team because theres one asshole contained in the game. But they've hinted at a Switch version so ill be waiting for that one.
 

Drek

Member
Jun 10, 2004
6,725
0
0
I understand that. I guess my mindset is this:

If you had started working in a building that Jared Fogle works with before it was known that he had a child pornography thing, and the nature of your work in that building had nothing to do with child pornography, then I would have no reason to assume that you engaged in child pornography. You were just doing your job and unbeknownst to you he ended up being a bad person. I wouldn't expect a statement from you, the nature of his job didn't leave you in any kind of position to know of or condone his bad thoughts and behaviours. That's on him, not you.

I also wouldn't expect the owner to go back and erase any work he may have done for the company if the work he did was completely unrelated.
The Jared Fogle analogy would work better if:
1. The two of you shared a computer/work station.
2. It was found he accessed child porn via that computer/work station.

Then how do you react? I'd imagine a bit differently.

This is also really important. The gaming community at large has a tendency of eating people alive. More than anything this is a case of wrong place at the wrong, they got caught in the middles of some terrible bullshit that has nothing to do with them, and now have the extremely enviable position of choosing which half of their potential customers to alienate. While silence might not exactly be the moral high ground it is definitely their safest option
Maybe choose to alienate the group who is pro-ethnic cleansing?

This whole "they're a small team, they can't just change things that easily, rock and a hard place" rationalizing is bullshit. Something as simple as a statement saying "we're not pro-ethnic cleansing but lack the resources to swap some sound files" would have been one option. Getting out ahead of this months ago when this guy first showed his ass to the world in a thoroughly definitive fashion would have been another. The developer had and still has a wide range of choices. In fact, they're making one now by staying completely silent on the issue.

If they now can't help but alienate a part of their audience either way why is it that despite a complete lack of data to indicate either side's superior numbers they're choosing to retain the customers who are pro-ethnic cleansing?

I'd like to think most of the reasonable people trying to explain why having JonTron in their game shouldn't reflect poorly on the developers would still buy the game if they simply made a statement that they don't condone his hateful views.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
May 4, 2005
16,537
6,199
1,920
33
Germany
www.gaming-universe.de
A while back I remember a comment about this issue that I think is important to remember. JonTron isn't is this game because he's a talented voice actor. It's because he's JonTron.

This makes it sort of a different issue to just say 'well there are terrible people working on any game'. Perhaps so but their involvement in the project goes beyond their celebrity and personality, perhaps it's easier then to separate appreciation of their work and discust at their veiws.

In this case it really isn't possible to do so. When a celebrity is included in something it's very difficult to separate that work from their public persona. The only reason JonTron is in the game is because of his public persona and that persona is hateful and toxic.

I think that's why there's a fundamental difference, you can't really separate his work from his public persona because his work is his public persona. Otherwise there would be no reason to include him at all

I can understand this stance and it appears to be a reasonable distinction. If it went one step further, I would even act the same: If he was included because of his prominence for political claims, I would boycott the product as well, because I would perceive this as specific support of them. But I can understand if some people do not make this distinction. The distinction you made is a good one I did not think of though.
 
Jun 5, 2013
12,775
0
0
I will say it's scary how people are saying it's OK that they don't take a stance for fear of retribution. Like holy shit how has it gotten to that stage. Retribution for speaking out against a white supremacist. Like that is terrifying.
 

MrCunningham

Member
Jan 12, 2012
18,679
516
775
BC Canada
Extreme racism is not ”a few questionable things." Trying to downplay that is bullshit.

I'm not trying to downplay anything. Jon pulled out some statistics that he pandered off as absolute fact, and it bit him in the ass and seems like something he is not going to back out of. I don't actually agree with his argument either, as I always felt that crime is more of a social class thing and doesn't really affect race as much as people want to believe. But I also don't feel strong about boycotting something that was under development while that controversy was happening. Granted, I will say this, it is interesting that they went forward with a release regardless, it should have been obvious that there would still be controversy around the Jon Tron thing that could affect their sales. But I guess they took that risk, for whatever reason.
 

SilentRob

Member
May 27, 2015
2,876
0
0
I feel like some in this thread concentrate so much on "principle" that they miss that it's also about personal enjoyment. Because I don't have to take a stand and bring "politics" (repeat after me, being against White Supremacy isn't "politics") to not want this man in this game. Because even without doing that he will actively damper my enjoyment of the game.

The second I hear him I will feel like shit. Because it reminds me of the fact that I spent years watching and listening to him, supporting him with comments and by sharing his content. In that moment, A Hat in Time will make me feel bad because it not only reminds me about an absolute Piece of Shit, it also forces me to once again subject myself to him - and spend money on a product he is involved with, no matter how small his part is.

I don't have to take a stand to be mad about them keeping JonTron in this game. I simply have to want to be able to fully enjoy this really, really cool looking game. But by including a stupid as bricks, unapologetic White Supremacist as a fun cameo they actively make me feel bad by playing their game. And you know what? I don't want to feel bad playing video games. So I'd rather just not play it.
 

Kawika

Member
Jun 20, 2014
527
20
505
I think 2017 is the perfect time to boycott white supremacists. Good thing that it doesn't really take up any time.

Correct me if I am wrong, isn't JT bi-racial? Doesn't that just make him a run of the mill racist, not a white supremacist? I encountered a few white supremacists in my day and all had a lot to say about how my parents weren't the same race.

Question, is it possible that they are embarrassed and want to replace him quietly before it becomes a stink? Or was this an ongoing thing known to many for months?

What I mean is, is it possible they didn't think anyone would notice if he was in the game and/or they didn't have the time/money to replace him. This is the first I've heard of JT being in the game and I thought i followed this project fairly well. TBH I never heard of JT before gaf put him on blast for being in Yooka Laylee.

I know far too much about this JonTron guy than I ever cared to. Thanks gaf

Can I just get a drama free N64 throw back please?
 

CookTrain

Member
Feb 10, 2013
1,689
0
0
I feel like some in this thread concentrate so much on "principle" that they miss that it's also about personal enjoyment. Because I don't have to take a stand and bring "politics" (repeat after me, being against White Supremacy isn't "politics") to not want this man in this game. Because even without doing that he will actively damper my enjoyment of the game.

The second I hear him I will feel like shit. Because it reminds me of the fact that I spent years watching and listening to him, supporting him with comments and by sharing his content. In that moment, A Hat in Time will make me feel bad because it not only reminds me about an absolute Piece of Shit, it also forces me to once again subject myself to him - and spend money on a product he is involved with, no matter how small his part is.

I don't have to take a stand to be mad about them keeping JonTron in this game. I simply have to want to be able to fully enjoy this really, really cool looking game. But by including a stupid as bricks, unapologetic White Supremacist as a fun cameo they actively make me feel bad by playing their game. And you know what? I don't want to feel bad playing video games. So I'd rather just not play it.

I think the principled part is making sure the developers are keenly aware. That this isn't a matter of consumer disinterest in their product, but an outright rejection of a poor decision they made that has spoiled their game.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.