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Polygon article on JonTron and A Hat in Time (Humble Bundle ... (READ MOD POST)

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Ryuuga

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May 4, 2006
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To me, it seems like a Codename STEAM issue. VA was recorded long before controversy came to light and removing it at this late stage isn't worth the time involved.

I'm certainly no expert on how long it'd take to remove a few lines of dialogue, however they've had half a year to make a decision. They also had half a year to justify keeping it in and to us the silence has been a ringing endorsement.
 
Jun 18, 2014
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I did, I made the assumption that if the game suffers out of association, there'll be financial repercussions for everyone.

Nice dodge, but you also said that a statement wouldn't do anything but provide an ego-boost to those seeking it, despite employees of the game themselves being vocally dissatisfied with the silence shown and obviously looking for some support from their employer.
 

Jazzem

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Aug 17, 2007
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My tolerance for benign nazi collaborators is at an all-time low. No more discussion, no more 'both sides', no more "let's give the nazi benefit of the doubt", no more "his iron cross and his nazi tattoo are just ironic". If you're helping nazis, you're a collaborator. That's your choice and I can't do anything about it, but don't be mad at me calling a spade a spade.

Preach \o/
 
Jun 5, 2013
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And if they don't give a statement? What's your reaction then? Can you account for everyone, not just on GAF, but across all social media as a result of articles like this? I can see how you would consider the comparison disgusting, but from another perspective the way people jump on these kind of articles and attack these people, does more harm than good in the grand scheme of things and are ultimately part of the problem.



No ones asking you to be best friends with them. But shouting at someone will only result in making them more stubborn and defiant. Are we trying to change peoples views or are we considering them lost causes?


I think people are taking the "kindness" comment far too literally.
I'll think they're OK with having a white supremacist in their game and dodge the fuck away like I am. What's wrong with that?
 

erlim

yes, that talented of a member
Aug 22, 2005
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I did, I made the assumption that if the game suffers out of association, there'll be financial repercussions for everyone.

Well, if you took a look at that developer's post, he was a huge asset to the team because of his skills and professional merit. One would hope that the careers of all these creators, artists, and programmers don't rely on the success or failure of A Hat in Time, because even if it was free of JonTron, it might fail.

You would hope that the development team could find new opportunities independent of the game's success or failure.

I don't think there's a correlation at all between condemning JonTron and the financial well being of workers that hopefully have already received their salary/financial compensation. If they didn't, that's some slave labor conditions.
 

Yoshi

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My tolerance for benign nazi collaborators is at an all-time low. No more discussion, no more 'both sides', no more "let's give the nazi benefit of the doubt", no more "his iron cross and his nazi tattoo are just ironic". If you're helping nazis, you're a collaborator. That's your choice and I can't do anything about it, but don't be mad at me calling a spade a spade.
Is anything like this happening anywhere in this topic? Does anyone doubt that helping Nazis (in distributing their racist ideas or acting on their racist ideology; I think we are not discussing "selling them something" or "helping them heal", right?) is collaboration? I don't get what you are talking about in reference to this topic.
 

RavageDark

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Apr 29, 2016
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White supremacy is an ideology. Anyone who can form those thoughts can share the ideology. Brown people are just as capable of believing in and spreading white supremacy as white people, or anyone else. There is no biological barrier to it.

Sheriff Clarke comes to mind.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
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Well, if you took a look at that developer's post, he was a huge asset to the team because of his skills and professional merit. One would hope that the careers of all these creators, artists, and programmers don't rely on the success or failure of A Hat in Time, because even if it was free of JonTron, it might fail.

You would hope that the development team could find new opportunities independent of the game's success or failure.

I don't think there's a correlation at all between condemning JonTron and the financial well being of workers that hopefully have already received their salary/financial compensation. If they didn't, that's some slave labor conditions.

The ones employed by the team leaders probably got their pay (at least the fixed part of it, if there are success-based compensations), but the team leaders in Indie games typically take the financial risk, often living off their savings or even credits, getting at most a meager payment out of it as long as they have no released game, at least if they do it full-time. I do not know the personal situation of the lead developers of AHiT, but it is clear they could not live off the Kickstarter money and pay their contractors off it as well for this extended period of time, so at the very least, for them, a presumably lot hinges on the success of the game.
 

erlim

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Aug 22, 2005
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Is anything like this happening anywhere in this topic? Does anyone doubt that helping Nazis (in distributing their racist ideas or acting on their racist ideology; I think we are not discussing "selling them something" or "helping them heal", right?) is collaboration? I don't get what you are talking about in reference to this topic.

There are many people arguing that the developer need not apologize for supporting JonTron, a racist, and furthermore that supporting a project with JonTron, a popular personality with huge outreach and hurtful rhetoric, would have any negative social impact because his role is 'small.'

There are people insinuating that finding JonTron and his rhetoric socially damaging are taking it too personally.

There are people saying that racist rhetoric is going to grow no matter what, so there's no way to stop it---and thus insinuating that complying with JonTron's casting reasonable.

The ones employed by the team leaders probably got their pay (at least the fixed part of it, if there are success-based compensations), but the team leaders in Indie games typically take the financial risk, often living off their savings or even credits, getting at most a meager payment out of it as long as they have no released game, at least if they do it full-time. I do not know the personal situation of the lead developers of AHiT, but it is clear they could not live off the Kickstarter money and pay their contractors off it as well for this extended period of time, so at the very least, for them, a presumably lot hinges on the success of the game.

If that's the case, I would hope the team leaders would bargain for a few hours in the ADR booth to replace JonTron, like the YookaLalee team did.
 

Feep

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Sep 14, 2006
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Let me salvage this post, I think it was the most important one in that thread.

Code:
You can find many search results about the game that mention my name. Just search for:
"a hat in time" "peter valencia"

This is my art portfolio, showing off just a few of the many assets I made for the game.
[url]http://dropr.com/pvalencia/90246/a_h...me/+?p=1175265[/url]

I was the only one on the team who had the skills to create Snatcher in 3D. Snatcher was originally just a 2D sprite that was overlayed on the environment, but because of certain cutscenes he later had to be evolved into a full 3D animated mesh. However, this required shape key (also known as morph target) animation, something no one else on the team at the time knew how to do. I also created the pillow pile (the one you can "swim" in) in Hat Kid's spaceship, using a physics simulation. None of my colleagues knew how to do that either.

Yet despite all that, the company remained quiet after JonTron called people like me lazy welfare thieves that should be kept out of the gene pool. Not even a measly tweet saying they disagree with him.

Regardless of how much money they end up making, they're going to have to live with the consequences of this for years to come. They've now established an audience firmly within neo-Nazi and alt-right circles, and they'll have to constantly avoid offending that crowd in the future to stay in business. Best of luck with that, Gears for Breakfast.
I was on the fence for this game, but now it's a no-buy. Sorry, Gears for Breakfast, but there are enough titles out there for me to be quite entertained, and I won't support a company that can't stand up and say what needs to be said.

Anyway, that's all. Enjoy the game if you bought it!
 

Redrable

Unconfirmed Member
Nov 15, 2016
78
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I really don't understand the poor devs argument when almost every site except Neogaf is full with people who claims they bought the game because of its association with JonTron. The devs clearly made an understandable financial decision which were net plus, since I have to assume those who opted out of the game over this issue are in the minority compared to those alt-right elements.
 

HotchieMotchie

Neo Member
Jun 5, 2017
109
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0
To me, it seems like a Codename STEAM issue. VA was recorded long before controversy came to light and removing it at this late stage isn't worth the time involved.
Adam Baldwin was the main character in the game. Jontron has a bit role as an unimportant NPC that could easily be taken out with a patch.
 

BaasRed

Banned
Feb 14, 2014
520
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UAE Sharjah
Let me salvage this post, I think it was the most important one in that thread.

Code:
You can find many search results about the game that mention my name. Just search for:
"a hat in time" "peter valencia"

This is my art portfolio, showing off just a few of the many assets I made for the game.
[url]http://dropr.com/pvalencia/90246/a_h...me/+?p=1175265[/url]

I was the only one on the team who had the skills to create Snatcher in 3D. Snatcher was originally just a 2D sprite that was overlayed on the environment, but because of certain cutscenes he later had to be evolved into a full 3D animated mesh. However, this required shape key (also known as morph target) animation, something no one else on the team at the time knew how to do. I also created the pillow pile (the one you can "swim" in) in Hat Kid's spaceship, using a physics simulation. None of my colleagues knew how to do that either.

Yet despite all that, the company remained quiet after JonTron called people like me lazy welfare thieves that should be kept out of the gene pool. Not even a measly tweet saying they disagree with him.

Regardless of how much money they end up making, they're going to have to live with the consequences of this for years to come. They've now established an audience firmly within neo-Nazi and alt-right circles, and they'll have to constantly avoid offending that crowd in the future to stay in business. Best of luck with that, Gears for Breakfast.

Yeah alienating employees/minorities is going to hurt them. I hope they slip and lose their audience/money for not even calling out racist shit for what it is.
 

FinalAres

Member
Dec 12, 2016
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270
I personally think that whilst the developer should be not supporting Jontron, even implicitly, there's nothing wrong with buying this game even if you are against racism.

Not supporting someone for supporting someone who is a bad person is just too many links in the chain for me. When does it end?

Having said that I definitely respect those willing to take this moral stance. I just don't think those not doing so should be criticised.
 

erlim

yes, that talented of a member
Aug 22, 2005
4,523
1
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I personally think that whilst the developer should be not supporting Jontron, even implicitly, there's nothing wrong with buying this game even if you are against racism.

Not supporting someone for supporting someone who is a bad person is just too many links in the chain for me. When does it end?

Having said that I definitely respect those willing to take this moral stance. I just don't think those not doing so should be criticised.

I would just say consider that JonTron's rhetoric is more predatory, harmful, and more directly damaging to some people more than others.,
 
Jun 5, 2013
12,775
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I personally think that whilst the developer should be not supporting Jontron, even implicitly, there's nothing wrong with buying this game even if you are against racism.

Not supporting someone for supporting someone who is a bad person is just too many links in the chain for me. When does it end?

Having said that I definitely respect those willing to take this moral stance. I just don't think those not doing so should be criticised.
I'm not sure there's much criticism of people buying the game. Criticism comes from the shoddy justifications.
 

Szadek

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Jan 12, 2014
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I'll think they're OK with having a white supremacist in their game and dodge the fuck away like I am. What's wrong with that?
Chances are that they just don't want to get into a massive shitstorm.
His role is small that it's not worth dealing with all the harassment and possible review bombing( which could seriously hurt them).

Fuck JonTron and if anyone else ever hires him again(which isn't very likely) you have point, but it isn't that easy.
 

excelsiorlef

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Sep 20, 2014
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I really don't understand the poor devs argument when almost every site except Neogaf is full with people who claims they bought the game because of its association with JonTron. The devs clearly made an understandable financial decision which were net plus, since I have to assume those who opted out of the game over this issue are in the minority compared to those alt-right elements.

It's not understandable to remain silent against white supremacy for money
 
Jun 18, 2014
2,388
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Not supporting someone for supporting someone who is a bad person is just too many links in the chain for me. When does it end?

You supporting.. -> Developer supporting.. -> Person proud and vocal about white supremacy

How is that too many links in the chain, and anywhere near the "when does it end" argument? It's literally as close as you can get without handing money directly to the person whose views you find disgusting.
 
May 5, 2017
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The ๖ۜBronx;251126720 said:
You supporting.. -> Developer supporting.. -> Person proud and vocal about white supremacy

How is that too many links in the chain, and anywhere near the "when does it end" argument? It's literally as close as you can get without handing money directly to the person whose views you find disgusting.
It's not many links at all, by supporting this game i would be supporting jon trons ideology. Developers seem to think it's ok, so i think it's ok if i don't purchase. Fair exchange
 

Redrable

Unconfirmed Member
Nov 15, 2016
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0
It's not understandable to remain silent against white supremacy for money

Well, understandable as "it made money" regardless of how many who would argue one's reluctance to buy will ruin the company or something... and if the game indeed ends up failing, well then clearly the company made a poor business decision in underestimating and not addressing thd aforementioned problem.

Of course, I perfectly agree that their silence regarding JonTron is worthy of criticism like ALL scummy business practices.
 

Oersted

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Mar 14, 2012
32,328
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I personally think that whilst the developer should be not supporting Jontron, even implicitly, there's nothing wrong with buying this game even if you are against racism.

Not supporting someone for supporting someone who is a bad person is just too many links in the chain for me. When does it end?

Having said that I definitely respect those willing to take this moral stance. I just don't think those not doing so should be criticised.

If it helps easing your pain

Not interested in picking this up because of personal reasons. MechaTheSlag has a pretty awful past.

http://tumblr.maxofs2d.net/post/134320977352/amp

https://web.archive.org/web/20150319004929/http://mechatheslagtruth.tumblr.com/

Jontron still in the game doesn't give me any second thoughts either.


Please stop.

I worked on the game. I got to know my colleagues in my time there. They are anything but amateurs. Several of them had worked on games released for consoles and PC in the past. They are talented and far from inexperienced. I still recognize that, even after they chose to stand with someone who wants me ethnically cleansed.

You're trying to paint them (and me) as a bunch of amateurs to prove your point and it's just hilariously and utterly wrong.

We used middleware - Unreal Engine 3. It facilitates much of the difficult, menial things for you. It isn't as difficult as you keep claiming.
 

Lutherian

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Sep 9, 2014
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I'm wondering if Gears wanted to avoid the shitstorm Playtonic got after they removed jontron from Yooka-Laylee. If so, they should have think better.
 

Fisty

Member
Jun 26, 2014
7,431
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Good way to sink your game and piss off a huge portion of the dev community. I have a feeling this will be the last we hear from Gears for Breakfast. Good riddance.
 

Rmagnus

Banned
Jan 31, 2017
1,027
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Exactly, who wants to be on that guy's level?



I didn't say that... what I did ask for were suitable effective alternatives for acotually improving things. I assume that's something people are in favour of?

Effective way? Money don't give them money easiest and simplest way.
 
Oct 9, 2005
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We've contacted Gears for Breakfast about JonTron's role in A Hat in Time and have not yet received a response.
And that's why I can't support this game. It's possible there's a reasonable explanation why he's still in the game, but they have not and seemingly will not provide one. As far as I'm aware they haven't even condemned his repugnant views. They've had about 7 months to do these things.
 

Oersted

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Mar 14, 2012
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Prodigal Son

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I sure hope JonTron doesn't continue to call for racial segregation and anti-immigration movements...oh wait.

yeah me too. I also hope he doesn't continue doing that

That's where my main concern is now, to be honest.
For example, I'd hate for an OT for it to be referred to as a hub for Nazi sympathisers, or some nonsense like that.

I obviously don't judge (or blame) people who aren't going to buy it because of this, or those who are willing to as long as they release some sort of statement regarding the issue, but people definitely shouldn't attack those who are just buying the game because they want to play it.

Exactly this
 

Lime

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Apr 27, 2008
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Is anything like this happening anywhere in this topic? Does anyone doubt that helping Nazis (in distributing their racist ideas or acting on their racist ideology; I think we are not discussing "selling them something" or "helping them heal", right?) is collaboration? I don't get what you are talking about in reference to this topic.

Silence is complicity. Their inaction tells me that they're okay with having nazi rhetorics in their spaces. That's collaboration.
 

Jimnymebob

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Mar 8, 2013
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I sure hope people don't attack others for playing and enjoying this game.

That's where my main concern is now, to be honest.
For example, I'd hate for an OT for it to be referred to as a hub for Nazi sympathisers, or some nonsense like that.

I obviously don't judge (or blame) people who aren't going to buy it because of this, or those who are willing to as long as they release some sort of statement regarding the issue, but people definitely shouldn't attack those who are just buying the game because they want to play it.
 

Oersted

Member
Mar 14, 2012
32,328
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That's where my main concern is now, to be honest.
For example, I'd hate for an OT for it to be referred to as a hub for Nazi sympathisers, or some nonsense like that.

I obviously don't judge (or blame) people who aren't going to buy it because of this, or those who are willing to as long as they release some sort of statement regarding the issue, but people definitely shouldn't attack those who are just buying the game because they want to play it.

You have someone using his influence to advocate ethnic cleansing and this is your primary concern.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
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I really don't understand the poor devs argument when almost every site except Neogaf is full with people who claims they bought the game because of its association with JonTron. The devs clearly made an understandable financial decision which were net plus, since I have to assume those who opted out of the game over this issue are in the minority compared to those alt-right elements.
Well the "poor devs" thing comes into play if they decide to throw out Jontron (or to release a statement against him), because then the (as you said) larger group is expected to heavily turn against them and start a bullying job against them, hurting further sales. My previous post was just to explain why the finanical success of the game still is important to the developers, which is in a sense independent of this question.

I think the probably (strategically) best way out of this situation for the developers would be to answer to the many questions with a blanket statement that they, as an international, multi-ethnical and multi-gendered team, support diversity in all its forms and do not condone any form of hate speech, be it racist, sexist or nationalist. If they do not mention Jontron specifically and do not remove him either, they will probably not stir up anyone and they may appease also some people who complain right now. Also, they would have given a supportive message for all minority groups. The safest thing commercially is probably what they are doing now: Ignoring it, the cleanest thing they could do is to do the same thing the Yooka team did, but live with the repercussions.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
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Silence is complicity. Their inaction tells me that they're okay with having nazi rhetorics in their spaces. That's collaboration.

Complicity and collaboration are active words, they signify an action not a lack thereof, so this is quite confusing usage of these words and at the same time it makes it difficult to properly describe someone who, in my sense of the word, is complicit or collaborates, e.g. by distributing, advertising or protecting racist claims, racists or racist actions. Differentiating between those two things, I feel, is not irrelevant.
 

erlim

yes, that talented of a member
Aug 22, 2005
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Nobody is mocking people for buying the game. If you want to have a fun n64 style romp, go on ahead and enjoy yourself.

Just don't argue this game is free of social repercussion.

People are angry somebody as radically racist as JonTron is getting any traction or support in the community.

It doesn't matter how big or small his role is in the game.
 
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