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[Yoshi]

He's not even good at it, is the thing too. His delivery sounds like he recorded a throwaway bit from one of his videos on vocaroo and just sent it in.

Well I cannot evaluate his work on A Hat in Time, I do not play PC games, so I do not know the beta version and its quality. For Yooka-Laylee I found his performance fine (out of curiosity I listened to it at Youtube), it had a fittingly strange vibe to it, but the replacement was also fine. Certainly his contribution to Yooka-Laylee was not valuable, but it did not strike me as particularly weak when compared to other voices in the game.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Granted, I will say this, it is interesting that they went forward with a release regardless, it should have been obvious that there would still be controversy around the Jon Tron thing that could affect their sales. But I guess they took that risk, for whatever reason.

I think a fair amount of consensus here is that a statement about it would've been a good way forward. But no one from the dev team was saying ANYTHING about it, nothing. Just silence on the matter. Even their publisher didn't actually catch wind on it until they were asked about it.

Well I cannot evaluate his work on A Hat in Time, I do not play PC games, so I do not know the beta version and its quality. For Yooka-Laylee I found his performance fine (out of curiosity I listened to it at Youtube), it had a fittingly strange vibe to it, but the replacement was also fine. Certainly his contribution to Yooka-Laylee was not valuable, but it did not strike me as particularly weak when compared to other voices in the game.

Well I mean that one was just a jumble of sounds. A Hat In Time has actual sentences being spoken. He's literally just speaking, and this was the released version.

 

[TheGeniusArcana]

Yeah I didn't really like anything he did after he left Game Grumps. His increase in production quality seemed to coincide with a decrease in overall quality which sucked. Makes it easier to not support his newer stuff though.

Totally agree. The appeal to his videos was him being funny for 20 minutes, but now he’s not even being funny and also that 20 minutes is worth a couple thousand I guess.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Correct me if I am wrong, isn't JT bi-racial? Doesn't that just make him a run of the mill racist, not a white supremacist? I encountered a few white supremacists in my day and all had a lot to say about how my parents weren't the same race.

Question, is it possible that they are embarrassed and want to replace him quietly before it becomes a stink? Or was this an ongoing thing known to many for months?

What I mean is, is it possible they didn't think anyone would notice if he was in the game and/or they didn't have the time/money to replace him. This is the first I've heard of JT being in the game and I thought i followed this project fairly well. TBH I never heard of JT before gaf put him on blast for being in Yooka Laylee.

I know far too much about this JonTron guy than I ever cared to. Thanks gaf

Can I just get a drama free N64 throw back please?

You don't have to be anything to be a white supremacist. What he said is textbook white supremacist.

 

[Alucrid]

I'm not trying to downplay anything. Jon pulled out some statistics that he pandered off as absolute fact, and it bit him in the ass and seems like something he is not going to back out of. I don;t actually agree with his argument either, as I always felt that crime is more of a social class thing and doesn't really affect race. But I also don't feel strong about boycotting something that was under development while that controversy was happening. Granted, I will say this, it is interesting that they went forward with a release regardless, it should have been obvious that there would still be controversy around the Jon Tron thing that could affect their sales. But I guess they took that risk, for whatever reason.

so what are the statistics that he spouted off as absolute fact in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RQA9GZprqM

 

[SilentRob]

Correct me if I am wrong, isn't JT bi-racial? Doesn't that just make him a run of the mill racist, not a white supremacist? I encountered a few white supremacists in my day and all had a lot to say about how my parents weren't the same race.

He considers himself white and is afraid that white people will become a minority in the US and that foreigners dilute their precious gene pool.

 

[Doctor Ironic]

The whole game is not made entirely by white supremacists.

Surprisingly, palling around with white supremacists means that a white supremacist's ideology isn't disgusting enough for you to cut ties with them.

Some people consider this to be a bad thing.

 

[TheGeniusArcana]

Correct me if I am wrong, isn't JT bi-racial? Doesn't that just make him a run of the mill racist, not a white supremacist? I encountered a few white supremacists in my day and all had a lot to say about how my parents weren't the same race.

Question, is it possible that they are embarrassed and want to replace him quietly before it becomes a stink? Or was this an ongoing thing known to many for months?

What I mean is, is it possible they didn't think anyone would notice if he was in the game and/or they didn't have the time/money to replace him. This is the first I've heard of JT being in the game and I thought i followed this project fairly well. TBH I never heard of JT before gaf put him on blast for being in Yooka Laylee.

I know far too much about this JonTron guy than I ever cared to. Thanks gaf

Can I just get a drama free N64 throw back please?

The distinction between racist and white supremacist is impressively unimportant, but yeah, this has been a thing for months now and he was announced to be in the game well before that.

 

[L Thammy]

Correct me if I am wrong, isn't JT bi-racial? Doesn't that just make him a run of the mill racist, not a white supremacist? I encountered a few white supremacists in my day and all had a lot to say about how my parents weren't the same race.

Question, is it possible that they are embarrassed and want to replace him quietly before it becomes a stink? Or was this an ongoing thing known to many for months?

What I mean is, is it possible they didn't think anyone would notice if he was in the game and/or they didn't have the time/money to replace him. This is the first I've heard of JT being in the game and I thought i followed this project fairly well. TBH I never heard of JT before gaf put him on blast for being in Yooka Laylee.

I know far too much about this JonTron guy than I ever cared to. Thanks gaf

Can I just get a drama free N64 throw back please?

White supremacy is an ideology. Anyone who can form those thoughts can share the ideology. Brown people are just as capable of believing in and spreading white supremacy as white people, or anyone else. There is no biological barrier to it.

As for the next point, JonTron's views came out (or at least most publicly) months ago.

I think Mario Odyssey might be your drama free N64 throwback?

 

[nelsonroyale]

Look here:



Questionable is putting it very lightly; this is really fucked up.

Its amazing how muddled the whole discourse has become in terms of ethno-nationalism, etc...Not that the Nazi's were 'pure' in any sense in terms of how they actually analysed their own ethnicity. I suppose they had more coherence in their hate (a bit)

I don't really know this Jontron, but looking at his Wiki: ' He is of Hungarian-Croatian descent on his mother's side and Persian descent from his father's side.' There is obviously a degree of attention craving and validisation as well.

Okay...Unfortunately Youtube gives a platform to people who can spew nonesense diatribes, diverting attention away from their own inconsistency and in coherence.

 

[MrCunningham]

I think a fair amount of consensus here is that a statement about it would've been a good way forward. But no one from the dev team was saying ANYTHING about it, nothing. Just silence on the matter. Even their publisher didn't actually catch wind on it until they were asked about it.

I totally get that. Maybe the dev team was told to stay quiet for the time being, until they could come up with an official statement? Maybe they don't want to misfire or have an employee throw out an off the cuff remark? That is my guess.

so what are the statistics that he spouted off as absolute fact in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RQA9GZprqM

I couldn't tell you from just pointing to a few time stamps. Didn't this controversy come from Jon's now infamous " blacks commit more crimes than poor whites" that he spun off as fact because of some "statistical" thing he saw? That's what I was talking about.

 

[Wanderer5]

Not surprising I guess, but he is listed in the credits.

I would probably still check this out (well not now anyway cause I have enough other stuff to look out for at the moment), but the devs should really get a statement out.

 

[『Inaba Resident』]

I totally get that. Maybe the dev team was told to stay quiet for the time being, until they could come up with an official statement? Maybe they don't want to misfire or have an employee throw out an off the cuff remark? That is my guess.

They've had months though. That's the thing.

 

[Machina]

you're right. steam forums don't seem to care. i'm sorry again for wanting them to make a statement when other people don't care

When you mentioned the steam forums, I decided to jump on there and have a look what was being said

http://steamcommunity.com/app/253230/discussions/1/1489987633996458726/

Oh dear

 

[Yoshi]

He considers himself white and is afraid that white people will become a minority in the US and that foreigners dilute their precious gene pool.

To be fair, this is a really fucked up position especially if he himself is biracial, because as a matter of fact, wouldn't he be a prime example of "deluted gene pool" then?

Which is not to say it wouldn't be fucked up if he wasn't, mind you. It's just this extra point of stupidity on top of it.

 

[Mazzo3]

Reading those Jontron tweets makes me sick, and I used to enjoy his content. I don't think taking a stance and refusing to support his hateful discourse is a useless thing at all.

 

[Yoshi]

Can I just get a drama free N64 throw back please?

Yooka-Laylee is not drama-free, because it once included Jontron, but it is a great N64 throw back and does not include Jontron anymore, so have that .

(I would not count Mario as an N64 throwback game, it really is quite far from N64 design philosophies)

 

[CookTrain]

To be fair, this is a really fucked up position especially if he himself is biracial, because as a matter of fact, wouldn't he be a prime example of "deluted gene pool" then?

Which is not to say it wouldn't be fucked up if he wasn't, mind you. It's just this extra point of stupidity on top of it.

It's such an utterly ridiculous situation. Like has he doubled down in some Andy-Kaufman level investment on being an absurdist parody of where racism has found itself in the 21st century?

And then you realise no... He's actually a category 5 racist and the lack of sense is par for the course. I guess that's what happens when your ideology spawns from a weedy dark haired madman dreaming big of the blonde-haired-blue-eyed "superior" being.

 

[SanguineShark]

When you mentioned the steam forums, I decided to jump on there and have a look what was being said

http://steamcommunity.com/app/253230/discussions/1/1489987633996458726/

Oh dear

Being reminded of how terrible the gaming community is outside of gaf (and even gaf can be questionable at times), is so jarring.

Those responses are just something else. They all either agree with Jon, sympathize with him or simply don't care that's he's a racist. It's so pathetic that a gaming forum needs constant moderation in order to not get flooded with these type of people.

Gaming as a whole is full of social rejects/neckbeards/bigots.

 

[Theanine3D]

To be fair, this is a really fucked up position especially if he himself is biracial, because as a matter of fact, wouldn't he be a prime example of "deluted gene pool" then?

Which is not to say it wouldn't be fucked up if he wasn't, mind you. It's just this extra point of stupidity on top of it.

Racism can fuck with your head so hard sometimes that it even makes some try to identify with their oppressor as a way to mitigate harm. "Look, I'm not like those brown people over there. I'm more like you. You don't have to hurt me." I've seen it all the time in the Hispanic community (which I grew up in).

 

[guybrushfreeman]

To be fair, this is a really fucked up position especially if he himself is biracial, because as a matter of fact, wouldn't he be a prime example of "deluted gene pool" then?

Which is not to say it wouldn't be fucked up if he wasn't, mind you. It's just this extra point of stupidity on top of it.

He did indeed claim that he 'considers himself white' whatever he thinks that means I have no idea.

I didn't initially intended to comment here because I certainly wouldn't judge anyone for playing the game at all, these issues are always a little complicated and people's discomfort levels will vary for a lot of reasons.

I couldn't possibly play this, the association is just so intense and hateful I could never enjoy it. It would eat away in the back of my mind constantly. Again though I have no interest in this case of judging anyone who does play it.

However the lack of statement from the devs is difficult to parse. One would imagine even if they choose to include him in the game they would want to try and disassociate themselves. It's difficult not to draw the conclusion that the association doesn't bother them. The only thing we know it that it doesn't bother them enough to make a statement and we're left to draw our conclusions from there.

The last thing I would say is that to anyone reading this topic, please educate yourself on what he actually said. If you don't do that you won't be able to understand why the association makes people so uncomfortable.

If you read his comments I don't think it's so hard why people are unable to disassociate them with the game. I could never play through a light bubbly platformer with association of 'non-whites would dilute the gene pool' in the back of my head

 

[ArtHands]

they never said it was?



regardless of the scope, he's still the largest name attached to the project.

Precisely why it is senseless to not seperate the two issues imo.

 

[Maximo]

Reading those Jontron tweets makes me sick, and I used to enjoy his content. I don't think taking a stance and refusing to support his hateful discourse is a useless thing at all.

Sad was a big fan of Jontron too...before everything he said but people showed a few clips during GameGrumps and you can see the cracks showing with Arin taken back by him at times.

 

[Oresama]

I recently watched a few of JonTrons YouTube videos just to see what all the hoopla was about after he came back into the spotlight due to 'A Hat in Time'

Guys I could not stop laughing. The guy is hilarious to me.

I know humor is subjective, but his humor is the kind of humor that just resonates with me.

I then felt weird about it all. I finally find a YouTuber that I find funny, yet he despises people like me.

Tried a few other YouTubers that Reddit suggested were similar to him, but none of them clicked with me.

 

[MrCunningham]

They've had months though. That's the thing.

I really don't know then. I'd think this is something that they would address closer to release, just to keep their game in the public eye until it went gold. Or maybe they thought the Jon Tron thing wouldn't flair up again? But it is pretty obvious that they will have to say something about this now.

 

[Machina]

I recently watched a few of JonTrons YouTube videos just to see what all the hoopla was about after he came back into the spotlight due to 'A Hat in Time'

Guys I could not stop laughing. The guy is hilarious to me.

I know humor is subjective, but his humor is the kind of humor that just resonates with me.

I then felt weird about it all. I finally find a YouTuber that I find funny, yet he despises people like me.

Tried a few other YouTubers that Reddit suggested were similar to him, but none of them clicked with me.

I assume you're black? Jontron has close friends who are black I believe, so that comment might be a bit off the mark

 

[Yoshi]

He's actually a category 5 racist

What does this mean?

Racism can fuck with your head so hard sometimes that it even makes some try to identify with their oppressor as a way to mitigate harm. "Look, I'm not like those brown people over there. I'm more like you. You don't have to hurt me." I've seen it all the time in the Hispanic community (which I grew up in).

It is crazy how this happens. White people being white supremacists besides there not being any good scientific argument for this I can somehow understand out of a desire to feel superior. It is disipicable, but I can at least get how one gets there. But how does someone convince himself (outside a clearly racist nation like nazi Germany was) of racism that says oneself is of lesser value?

 

[CookTrain]

What does this mean?

Just a metaphor... substitute "full-on".

 

[SanguineShark]

I assume you're black? Jontron has close friends who are black I believe, so that comment might be a bit off the mark

Having token black friends doesn't really mean anything. Jontron still thinks black people are predisposed to crime.

If anything, Jontron probably thinks they're "one of the good ones". He most likely considers himself the same.

 

[TheGeniusArcana]

I assume you're black? Jontron has close friends who are black I believe, so that comment might be a bit off the mark

Duuuuuuuuuude please do not do the “I have a black friend” thing on JonTron’s behalf lmao Jesus Christ!
Also good job on telling

Spoiler

someone who you weirdly assume is

a black person that they are actually wrong about racism because of that.

Spoiler

JonTron’s white supremacy doesn’t stop with black people either.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

Compromise thought: If you're going to livestream the game, right after he reads his line, loudly proclaim "Fuck you Jontron" immediately after. None of Vinny's "See, the world didn't explode" bullshit.

Did he really fucking do this?

Goddamn it. I love watching Vinny's streams and I was going to toss him a subscription to show my support, but fuck all of that now.

Edit:

Duuuuuuuuuude please do not do the ”I have a black friend" thing on JonTron's behalf lmao Jesus Christ why

The fact that this idea is under constant ridicule, but people continue to do it never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Alucrid]

I totally get that. Maybe the dev team was told to stay quiet for the time being, until they could come up with an official statement? Maybe they don't want to misfire or have an employee throw out an off the cuff remark? That is my guess.





I couldn't tell you from just pointing to a few time stamps. Didn't this controversy come from Jon's now infamous " blacks commit more crimes than poor whites" that he spun off as fact because of some "statistical" thing he saw? That's what I was talking about.

no. it started with jontron defending the racist senator steve king's anti-immigration tweet, which spiraled into him showcasing his white supremacist ideologies and culminated in two hours of him stumbling over his own words to express how he thinks (stolen from the original thread)

- Foreigners dilute the gene pool
- Black crime in America is the same as in Africa (like, he fuckin' brought this up TWICE)
- Racial issues can be summed up via mixing different colors of paint
- Statistical data means nothing because Clinton lost the election
- Destiny wants to kill black people
- Black Lives Matter is a violent organization
- the richest black man commits more crimes than the poorest white man
- Tribalism is a valid theory
- Immigrants are destroying every single country they are let into
- America is gonna become Mexico
- Racism is over
- Muslims are organizing to make it seem like Christians are protesting abortion clinics

and that's not the entirety of it

 

[guybrushfreeman]

I assume you're black? Jontron has close friends who are black I believe, so that comment might be a bit off the mark

What a bizarre comment. JonTron expressed specific concern that 'non-whites would still dilute the gene pool'. His views are some of the most racist and hateful I'm come across in public in my entire life. I have no idea what you think you're getting at claiming he has 'black friends'. He views and statements were purposefully hateful towards anyone he doesn't consider to be 'white'

 

[Yoshi]

However the lack of statement from the devs is difficult to parse. One would imagine even if they choose to include him in the game they would want to try and disassociate themselves. It's difficult not to draw the conclusion that the association doesn't bother them. The only thing we know it that it doesn't bother them enough to make a statement and we're left to draw our conclusions from there.

I think an answer might be this:

When you mentioned the steam forums, I decided to jump on there and have a look what was being said

http://steamcommunity.com/app/253230/discussions/1/1489987633996458726/

Oh dear

as well as the reaction to Jontron's removal from Yooka. They might be frightened as hell to say anthing that starts a huge hate campaign against them, especially now. I guess they have decided: We have seen what happens if we remove him, let's try to just sit it out quitely. On the one hand, I can understand why people may absolutely not like this stance, on the other hand, if it is their stance, from an egoistical perspective I can understand this.

I assume you're black? Jontron has close friends who are black I believe, so that comment might be a bit off the mark

Well, one can hate a group of people but still be friends with some. The German Nazi party AfD have a black candidate in Germany and other candidates like to point at this fact to line out how they cannot be accused of hating foreigners, but as a mater of fact, this is a very weak deflection, because group based hate need not materialise in individual cases all the time.

 

[Shauni]

I assume you're black? Jontron has close friends who are black I believe, so that comment might be a bit off the mark

Wow. You just plowed right into that ass didn't you, son?

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I assume you're black? Jontron has close friends who are black I believe, so that comment might be a bit off the mark

God damn it

 

[Alucrid]

I assume you're black? Jontron has close friends who are black I believe, so that comment might be a bit off the mark

i don't see why you have to assume like that. jontron took care to insult all kinds of people.

 

[Daouzin]

Did he really fucking do this?

Goddamn it. I love watching Vinny's streams and I was going to toss him a subscription to show my support, but fuck all of that now.

Edit:



The fact that this idea is under constant ridicule, but people continue to do it never ceases to amaze me.

Please tell me we aren't talking about GB Vinny.

God damn it

The irony/lack of self awareness is ridiculous.

 

[Alucrid]

Please tell me we aren't talking about GB Vinny.

no, vinesauce

 

[SanguineShark]

People on the steam forums are saying he apologized, so let's move on.

Has he even given a sincere apology that indicates he's doing some serious self reflection?


I somehow don't think he has. The most I can see him doing is one of the those "sorry you were offended" non-apologies.

 

[guybrushfreeman]

I think an answer might be this:
as well as the reaction to Jontron's removal from Yooka. They might be frightened as hell to say anthing that starts a huge hate campaign against them, especially now. I guess they have decided: We have seen what happens if we remove him, let's try to just sit it out quitely. On the one hand, I can understand why people may absolutely not like this stance, on the other hand, if it is their stance, from an egoistical perspective I can understand this.


Well, one can hate a group of people but still be friends with some. The German Nazi party AfD have a black candidate in Germany and other candidates like to point at this fact to line out how they cannot be accused of hating foreigners, but as a mater of fact, this is a very weak deflection, because group based hate need not materialise in individual cases all the time.

Perhaps that's what they're afraid of but we have no means to draw a conclusion if they don't make a statement.

However, I find that reason to be a very poor one indeed. If that was their reason then we could draw the conclusion that they're more comfortable being associated with JonTron's views than they are standing up against them. Still, not a great place to be

 

[Daouzin]

no, vinesauce

Thank god.

I should have known better haha. The GB guys are pretty smart/rational.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Did he really fucking do this?

That was a bit out of context. He was saying this in relation to his chat, which has been known to go apeshit over more controversial topics that happen during a game, including this one. He even has a soundboard to distract and indirectly calm them down when they get too rowdy. In fact he actually had to use the button just after that clip.

He even once had to do it when he read off a paragraph that said "trigger".

He was just playing the game, making note of the thing chat would go insane about, and quickly moved on with his stream.

 

[L Thammy]

I assume you're black? Jontron has close friends who are black I believe, so that comment might be a bit off the mark

In a better universe, this might be satire.

Is this one of those things where they think humans only come in white and black too?

 

[PokéKong]

This relatively small inclusion along with a few bigger stories that came about yesterday are just a reminder of what tons of woman and minority people in the gaming community, game dev industry, and overall tech industry have been screaming trying to tell us all for the past several years: they are all absolutely plagued with a HUGE sexism, racism, overall nazi problem. It has gotten really really bad, and every little thing we let slide adds up. We rub shoulders with these people and tolerate them, thus validating their gross beliefs as acceptable. We watch their videos, helping them make a living continuing to spread their presence and ego. We buy their games and products, assisting them in further climbing the socio-economic status ladder.

Again, without an official or even passing statement about this we can only speculate on why the devs left him in. At best, they are cowardly covering their own asses at the expense of other groups of people who would be genuinely offended, as opposed to gamer groups being facetiously mad to push an agenda. At worst, they're actually buddy-buddy JonTron and find his beliefs excusable or agreeable. The odds are against us.

 

[oti]

Platformers are my favourite genre. I wish I could just feel happy for what seems to be a great platformer. But I'm not buying this game because of that racist YouTuber.

 

[Yoshi]

Perhaps that's what they're afraid of but we have no means to draw a conclusion if they don't make a statement.

However, I find that reason to be a very poor one indeed. If that was their reason then we could draw the conclusion that they're more comfortable being associated with JonTron's views than they are standing up against them. Still, not a great place to be

I agree on that, still, considering Indie games development is a risky endeavour and their Kickstarter money certainly was not sufficient to pay for their living expenses for such a long time, I could understand that fear considering previous events, especially in an unexperienced team that just has their first major launch.

 

[JSoup]

That was a bit out of context. He was saying this in relation to his chat, which has been known to go apeshit over more controversial topics that happen during a game, including this one. He even has a soundboard to distract and indirectly calm them down when they get too rowdy. In fact he actually had to use the button just after that clip.

He even once had to do it when he read off a paragraph that said "trigger".

He was just playing the game, making note of the thing chat would go insane about, and quickly moved on with his stream.

For the interested, 1:14:17 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQg38pyCs20

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

i don't know... i don't support jon anymore, not after all the shit he said... but this voice was made a long time ago, it's a minor character, and he will never see any money about that, he's already been paid (i'm not even sure he was paid for this)

this small voice clip won't bring any news fans to the mix so i don't see how buying the game is supporting jontron

 

[MrCunningham]

no. it started with jontron defending the racist senator steve king's anti-immigration tweet, which spiraled into him showcasing his white supremacist ideologies and culminated in two hours of him stumbling over his own words to express how he thinks (stolen from the original thread)

- Foreigners dilute the gene pool
- Black crime in America is the same as in Africa (like, he fuckin' brought this up TWICE)
- Racial issues can be summed up via mixing different colors of paint
- Statistical data means nothing because Clinton lost the election
- Destiny wants to kill black people
- Black Lives Matter is a violent organization
- the richest black man commits more crimes than the poorest white man
- Tribalism is a valid theory
- Immigrants are destroying every single country they are let into
- America is gonna become Mexico
- Racism is over
- Muslims are organizing to make it seem like Christians are protesting abortion clinics

and that's not the entirety of it

Yeeesh, I only caught the short form version of this. That is a lot more than I expected. Thanks for the summary. Maybe I will listen to the live stream chat.