There are two separate studios making Forza, T10 and Playground, plus they use outsourcing. At their peak dev cycles they have around 400 people working on a title. I wish PD turned to outsourcing too at this point.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Polyphony needs to step up their game with GT7
- Thread starter Jibbed
- Start date
Green Yoshi
Member
Don't you think it would benefit from 1080p&60fps&MSAA?
SliChillax
Member
They don't?? I always thought they did.
As it stands, I have no intention on buying GT7. If the last two games are any indication of the effort that will be put forth in the next one.
Project CARS might be my go to sim this gen. Shame really, the GT series it what got me into cars and professional racing.
Project CARS might be my go to sim this gen. Shame really, the GT series it what got me into cars and professional racing.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Would it benefit? Of course. Not a huge amount though given it already looks great, unless they put significant resources towards it. In which case, most people I think would rather have GT7 sooner and play Project CARS / GT6 on PS Now in the meantime. That's my point.
TylerDurden4321
Member
So many cars have very special tech going that needs to be modeled on top of the standard parameters, like magnetorheological damping, non-linear steering, torque-vectoring 2 and 4WD systems, active rear-wheel steering, active curve tilting, pre-scan suspension. It's not the early 80's where all cars worked on the same mechanics. In some cases PD is doing great work, like with the Huayra's asymmetrical active aerodynamics, but in most cases they just use the same parameters with different values for their cars.
I don't mean to shit on GT, I just wanted to clarify what I meant. It's not just the visuals, it's also the car's systems... and in general I trust a car that has it's interior and exterior modeled with love to detail more to have accurate physics than a PS2 era car. Not saying that it's not possible to have terrible looking car with perfect physics, it's just less likely in my opinion.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Once again a lot of that has nothing to do with gfx .
You can have the worst looking game having the best physics engine .
That is not to say i don't want all the cars looking good but the physics not tie together with gfx that much.
Even if PD used outsourcing in 5, it would have probably gone through the same development diffuclutlies caused by the PS3 and the Cell and taken the same amount of time.
son of a Sven
Banned
Not sure why anyone would use a chase cam for realistic games like this. Totally breaks the immersion of driving a car. Also, the graphics could probably be better if you never had to fully model the drivers car except for photo mode.
The car/track numbers would be larger though. That's what T10 uses outsourcing for, everything else is done in-house, in fact the actual studio has less full-time employees than PD which has around 110 and T10/PG have around 80 each. But with outsourcers it blows up to 400 during busiest periods.
But I don't see how that would have affected the development time. The programmers etc would have still been sat there trying to put the game together while some people are out modelling cars and audio.
Maybe we wouldn't have the whole standard cars debacle. I think originally they've decided to put them in because GT5 was going to have only 200 cars if they stuck with premiums only, and after Forza 3 which boasted 400 cars with interiors a year before I think they were pressured by Sony/fans to one up T10 and adding ps2 cars was the only way. Outsourcing would've have allowed them to have a respectable premium car list, because having only 200 cars to show after 6 years of work isn't really good, even if they're amazingly detailed.
sublimit
Banned
GT6 was the first GT i skipped and i've been following the series faithfully ever since 1998.I also found GT6 to be more like a GT5 V2.0 than a true sequel and since i had lost all my saves from GT5 i decided to continue playing GT5 instead even if they closed the online (which is also another reason why i didn't bought 6).
I also agree that we need less quantity and more quality.Make premium car models of the most popular standard ones and bring back some old tracks (along with the standard ones that have become synonymous with GT) but completely remake them for the PS4.
During the PS1 and PS2 eras Polyphony used to be the technical flag of Sony and their most ambitious studio in terms of quality.I want this ambition to finally come back for GT7.
I also agree that we need less quantity and more quality.Make premium car models of the most popular standard ones and bring back some old tracks (along with the standard ones that have become synonymous with GT) but completely remake them for the PS4.
During the PS1 and PS2 eras Polyphony used to be the technical flag of Sony and their most ambitious studio in terms of quality.I want this ambition to finally come back for GT7.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I'm in the same boat. I bought my ps3 for gt5, and the thought to get gt6 hasn't even crossed my mind - such was the bad taste left from gt5. Five felt like a decent GT core wrapped in old newspapers. From the 'did you get you patch today?', to the archaic career mode, to the 'enjoy the loading times' approach.
I don't care about VR, I can live the fake-ish sounds and I don't care what portion of the roster transferred over from the ps2, but I'll ever consider another GT only after PD get the fundamental structure and flow issues in their game fixed.
It was the lack of car testing features that killed my interest, GT5 eventually added them as DLC which was a minor annoyance but at least we eventually had a way of doing accurate straight line testing. For some daft reason they stripped it out again for 6.
Combine that with the removal to choose the first car, awful sleep inducing elevator jazz everywhere, most races only having 6-12 cars and seasonals throwing so much money at you it removes the sense of progress it just became...blah.
Combine that with the removal to choose the first car, awful sleep inducing elevator jazz everywhere, most races only having 6-12 cars and seasonals throwing so much money at you it removes the sense of progress it just became...blah.
Every game would benefit from this. Doesn't mean we need to remaster every game.
Just give us GT7.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Series definitely peaked at GT3 for me.
Same here. Played alot of GT 1-3, got tired of 4 real quick and have spent a few hours with 6 so far but can't get into it. I have lost a lot of interest in cars since 3 so that might be the problem (Don't mind the avatar...).
I want PD to do what they did with GT1 which is bring something revolutionary. I believe with GT7, the ease of PS4 development will take a considerable amount of pressure off PD's shoulder. Also the pressure is not there to get it out of the door given PS4's current sales statistics. I have no doubt when we see it, visually it will be nuts, truly nuts! Audio will be much better, though to what extent its hard to say. What i want them to focus on is the single player carrer/campaign. I think it's time for something new in this respect.
The handling is great, the graphics I expect to be fantastic. They just need to sort out some of the inconsistencies. I expect to see weather and day/night cycle for every track. Both of these were more hardware limitations on PS3 so I expect to see those sorted out. The sound needs drastic improvement. I want to hear gear changes, I want to hear the bodywork rattling at high speed in the cockpit view and so on.
After that they really desperately need to change the actual game's structure. Playing a GT game as a game is a boring, turgid experience, and has been for several games. They've literally not innovated or changed it up much at all since the first game. For a game acting as a real racing simulator, so much of the game feels completely at odds with anything that resembles real racing. Weird cups featuring Toyota Yaris' and Honda Jazz's or whatever. It's dire, boring and the game feels like a grind from the very first event. A grind that really is not all that enjoyable as the racing itself hasn't improved much. AI cars hold to the racing line, they always break, usually way too early, at the same point even though most decent players break at a later point and often take different lines. It needs improved, it needs to reflect how real racing drivers would drive, it needs to have some variability, some believable AI mistakes and heroic moments.
For me I buy GT to get the chance to drive the cars I want around the tracks I want (and was my best option not having a gaming PC), but the game locks away everything from the start and the grind is the only way to unlock better cars. Game after game. Project Cars nails what a racing game should be about, actually letting you race, letting you drive the cars you want to the minute you start the game. GT should just give up the ghost on forcing you to grind and "play the game" to get you to that point and follow Project Car's lead.
If you provide high quality racing experience and good championships that reflect the real life ones then people will happily drive slower cars, when it's fun and there's a real challenge there. I don't think everyone, or even most people who buy GT buy it to grind and play the game to unlock ever faster cars. Even with fast cars unlocked I still get a lot of joy rifling around the Nordshcleife in an Evo X. So I don't think it will ruin the game for most people.
After that they really desperately need to change the actual game's structure. Playing a GT game as a game is a boring, turgid experience, and has been for several games. They've literally not innovated or changed it up much at all since the first game. For a game acting as a real racing simulator, so much of the game feels completely at odds with anything that resembles real racing. Weird cups featuring Toyota Yaris' and Honda Jazz's or whatever. It's dire, boring and the game feels like a grind from the very first event. A grind that really is not all that enjoyable as the racing itself hasn't improved much. AI cars hold to the racing line, they always break, usually way too early, at the same point even though most decent players break at a later point and often take different lines. It needs improved, it needs to reflect how real racing drivers would drive, it needs to have some variability, some believable AI mistakes and heroic moments.
For me I buy GT to get the chance to drive the cars I want around the tracks I want (and was my best option not having a gaming PC), but the game locks away everything from the start and the grind is the only way to unlock better cars. Game after game. Project Cars nails what a racing game should be about, actually letting you race, letting you drive the cars you want to the minute you start the game. GT should just give up the ghost on forcing you to grind and "play the game" to get you to that point and follow Project Car's lead.
If you provide high quality racing experience and good championships that reflect the real life ones then people will happily drive slower cars, when it's fun and there's a real challenge there. I don't think everyone, or even most people who buy GT buy it to grind and play the game to unlock ever faster cars. Even with fast cars unlocked I still get a lot of joy rifling around the Nordshcleife in an Evo X. So I don't think it will ruin the game for most people.
Omnistalgic
Member
I think some of the GT nagging online is overstated.
Improved AI
More customization
Improved UI
Better Online
Graphics/Physics
Much of this stuff seems to be standard sequel improvements. And I've never heard anyone but people online complain about premium vs. standard cars. It's absolutely non important to I believe the larger GT fan base. Meh, I'm honestly expecting to get it day one and felt that GT6 was a great improvement and was only overshadowed by next-gen hype and little credit was given to it. I think the team will be fine with GT7, just a hunch.
Improved AI
More customization
Improved UI
Better Online
Graphics/Physics
Much of this stuff seems to be standard sequel improvements. And I've never heard anyone but people online complain about premium vs. standard cars. It's absolutely non important to I believe the larger GT fan base. Meh, I'm honestly expecting to get it day one and felt that GT6 was a great improvement and was only overshadowed by next-gen hype and little credit was given to it. I think the team will be fine with GT7, just a hunch.
Apex
Member
I wish not... Forza 4 achieved the numbers with a 95% of subpar car models and a 5% of Autovista HQ models. One of the reasons because Forza 5 shipped with only 200 cars is because accurate and highly detailed models need more work and that does also apply to GT5-6. The new tesselated cars in GT6 are even better and in PS3 they show better details and accuracy than many Forza 5 cars.
An insteresting FM5 comparisson thread:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/is-gt6s-photo-mode-better-than-forza-5.312855/
More examples of PD's work, not all are track and cars.
https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5-vs-reality-can-you-tell-the-difference/
And an old GT5 vs FM4 comparisson:
Maserati gran turismo
Aston martin DB9 Coupe
Jaguar XK Coupe
Authentic approach is all good and if you're upgrading exhausts as well as other performance parts for race purposes then they should sound like race cars.
TheAdmiester
Member
That's comparing photomode models to what are essentially ingame models. Forza 4's Autovista models should be the ones you're comparing with.
But of course, if we're trying to compare bad screenshots of one game with good screenshots of the other, then GT loses if I want to be purposefully unfair like those images.
IAmRandom31
Banned
Thread: " GT needs to step up its game "
rest of thread: " Forza vs. GT comparisons "
I thought GT5 was amazing personally. Loved the Nascar racing and the offroad racing. I did not play 6 as I fully expecting 6 to get released for the PS4 by now. Hopefully that thought comes true or atleast they release it on PS Now.
The fact that GT6 isn't on NOW when it is an obvious choice to put up makes me think that it is coming to PS4 sooner then later.
Can't wait. The main thing about the GT series that has put it at the pinnacle over all the others is Car Counts and Driving Accuracy. It really feels like you are driving a car when you play GT. I don't know what it is or what secret they have, but I've just never played another racer that FEELS like GT.
Guess that is why it is called the " Real DRIVING Simulator ". It is a driving simulation first and foremost, and the most fun thing you can do while driving is Racing, so thats just a natural extension off that.
Just make the AI good. Thats all I want.
rest of thread: " Forza vs. GT comparisons "
I thought GT5 was amazing personally. Loved the Nascar racing and the offroad racing. I did not play 6 as I fully expecting 6 to get released for the PS4 by now. Hopefully that thought comes true or atleast they release it on PS Now.
The fact that GT6 isn't on NOW when it is an obvious choice to put up makes me think that it is coming to PS4 sooner then later.
Can't wait. The main thing about the GT series that has put it at the pinnacle over all the others is Car Counts and Driving Accuracy. It really feels like you are driving a car when you play GT. I don't know what it is or what secret they have, but I've just never played another racer that FEELS like GT.
Guess that is why it is called the " Real DRIVING Simulator ". It is a driving simulation first and foremost, and the most fun thing you can do while driving is Racing, so thats just a natural extension off that.
Just make the AI good. Thats all I want.
TheAdmiester
Member
To be fair, that's the easiest way to show a game is lacking. It's a bit harder to explain what needs stepping up without being able to compare it with the number 1 competition.
SliChillax
Member
Well he did post a link that compares Forza 5 photomode and GT6 photomode.
TheAdmiester
Member
Most of those can't be compared because of the difference in time of day. Where most pictures of GT are sunset and more vibrant looking, the Forza equivalents are locked to noon for the most part, which even in real life looks flatter and more boring. Those that are on sunset in Forza like Bathurst look better than the GT comparisons to me.
The Albatross
Member
The AI is the biggest problem with GT games, IMO. It's a tremendous driving simulator and always has been, but the AI which feels unimproved since GT2 just makes it a mediocre racing game.
The AI is pretty bad and it never feels like actual racing. The immersion I'm experiencing in Pcars is phenomenal, especially when I am having 18 lap race in Career and it takes me 3-4 laps to pass a car that is less than 2 secs in front. Some people might not like this and expect to go from zero-to-hero in 3 laps but that's what real racing is about and I think it's thoroughly enjoyable to the last.
I had a theory about this a few yrs ago. It's like T10 focused on the handling in FM2 and the graphics were an afterthought, I mean, let's face it, it wasn't that great looking in 2007 when it launched but damn did it play well.
FM3 took the physics and ran with it while T10 focused on the eye candy, it was a massive improvement two years later in 2009. 2011s FM4 was just fine tuned and improved in many areas and FM5 in 2013 is just an improved resolution of previous gen but sorely lacking in content.
Rest assured I reckon FM6 will blow minds in the visual department but man they better add weather and day/night cycles cos lack on console power was last gens excuse.
I had a theory about this a few yrs ago. It's like T10 focused on the handling in FM2 and the graphics were an afterthought, I mean, let's face it, it wasn't that great looking in 2007 when it launched but damn did it play well.
FM3 took the physics and ran with it while T10 focused on the eye candy, it was a massive improvement two years later in 2009. 2011s FM4 was just fine tuned and improved in many areas and FM5 in 2013 is just an improved resolution of previous gen but sorely lacking in content.
Rest assured I reckon FM6 will blow minds in the visual department but man they better add weather and day/night cycles cos lack on console power was last gens excuse.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
I wish not... Forza 4 achieved the numbers with a 95% of subpar car models and a 5% of Autovista HQ models. One of the reasons because Forza 5 shipped with only 200 cars is because accurate and highly detailed models need more work and that does also apply to GT5-6. The new tesselated cars in GT6 are even better and in PS3 they show better details and accuracy than many Forza 5 cars.
An insteresting FM5 comparisson thread:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/is-gt6s-photo-mode-better-than-forza-5.312855/
More examples of PD's work, not all are track and cars.
https://www.gtplanet.net/gran-turismo-5-vs-reality-can-you-tell-the-difference/
And an old GT5 vs FM4 comparisson:
Maserati gran turismo
Aston martin DB9 Coupe
Jaguar XK Coupe
Yup GT premium models are the best in the industry and they go so far as to include details that you would never see (iirc interior photos are not permitted but can be obtained through glitching) and now its paying dividends for PD. Its crazy how thats all from the PS3....a 9 year old console.
I think they should show a bit more focus on track details. Certainly some tracks have amazing detail but it should be all tracks.
My top requests would be in terms of features:
1. Livery editor
2. Proper Course maker
3. New forms of racing or more depth for each form ( more D1 cars, FIA, multi-class racing etc)
Diablohead
Member
As awesome as the gt premium cars interiors are, the forza 4 shots were never suppose to have the camera go inside the car like that, so the closest you ever saw of the interior was through a window from the outside. To get the camera inside you had to glitch it in.
The cars in the forza 4 vista mode were slightly better but limited to vista only.
The cars in the forza 4 vista mode were slightly better but limited to vista only.
TheAdmiester
Member
The different lighting makes a world of difference.
WTF?? Compared to GT6, textures are bad in F4 in those shots. Totally different interior, even if the cars are same. You can make them shine with a thousand lights, texture quality will remain the same.
It's a proper comparison. F4 in-game photomode vs. GT6 in-game photomode.
TheAdmiester
Member
Read my posts above again. The lighting one I'm referring to the linked comparison between Forza 5 and GT6. The Forza 4 screenshots are misrepresentative, because they're showing lower detail models that aren't normally seen compared to GT's highest detail models.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
I have a feeling they are going to show some make believe tech demo at E3, followed by an announced release of 2016. Which then turns out to be 2017, going on their previous track record.
The one thing they need to nail this time is a locked 60 frames per second. Otherwise any talks of amazing graphics or plethora of features / content is worthless.
I used to be a huge fan of GT back in the early days but the last couple of games have been sub standard to say the least.
The one thing they need to nail this time is a locked 60 frames per second. Otherwise any talks of amazing graphics or plethora of features / content is worthless.
I used to be a huge fan of GT back in the early days but the last couple of games have been sub standard to say the least.
TheAdmiester
Member
No, but driveby posts like this shouldn't.
Cars ( models ) are the same in those shots. If you can show better, show it.
TheAdmiester
Member
funkystudent
Member
I think GT lighting looks great at dusk and dawn and night time but the default cloudless sky lighting in GT5 and 6 that the majority of tracks are locked to is terrible.
I think Forza does a better job with its default lighting and making each track feel like its a different setting. So many GT tracks feel like they could set in the same area because PD uses the same lighting and grass textures for a lot of their stuff.
Well, that's the point, PD modelled cars to great detail, but PS3 couldn't really show it all, they will be good enough for PS4 too. On X360 T10 modelled cars to a decent amount of detail suitable to that gen, on the outside I think they look just as good as PD's models, the interiors were lacking though. Now with Forza 5 they've achieved a similar level of detail as PD, and even higher really because they feature fully detailed engines and stuff. They're still using outsourcing. Now compare the numbers - Forza 5 featured 200 cars after just 2 years of dev time, GT5 featured 200 cars after 6 years of dev time. I mean it's not even close, you can't compete with brute forced approach that T10 uses, they have 400 people working on a game, PD has 110 or so. So yes, I think outsourcing could benefit PD a lot.
In two years T10 has caught up with PD in terms of detail.
Forza 4:
Forza 5:
GT5:
Doctor_Thomas
Member
I think PD should also look to Evo for borrowing car models. The Drive Models aren't too shabby, are they?
You have to glitch into the interiors in GT5 and 6 as well. There is no photomode camera for cockpit.
Apex
Member
The pictures were an example of the 95% total outsourced cars to compare their accuracy and details, isn't about to compare the in-game lighting or shadows.
There are only 25 Autovista car models (5%) over 500 FM4 total cars. As I said the 95% of Forza 4 cars were subpar modeled, that's how T10 achived more 'Premiums' than PD Premiums, trading quality that they will need to fix in the current gen and multiplying by 3 or 4 the employees of PD.
And now, even with an outsourced army of modellers, T10 only achieved 200 next gen cars with Autovista quality in FM5 (in 4 years of development?). Does not seem more efficient to me than PD with only 110 total crew. The outsourcing idea seems even worse when you compare the models quality itself in both games, and there's a generation of difference in between.
I don't want outsourced subpar models in GT7 and don't think that PD needs to outsource anything with their actual 'quality'/'time to modeling' ratio. And I don't believe that in this generation we will see large differences between the total number of cars considered 'Premium' between games.
TheAdmiester
Member
Seriously? There's a difference between poor modelling, and modelling a reduced detail car for performance reasons. The Autovista models are also outsourced.
The interior models on those cars are low detail because they're the gameplay models, where you'll rarely see much detail on a high poly model which at the same time would waste performance on things you won't see. I bet Gran Turismo's car engines are also very undetailed on most front-engined cars because you aren't meant to see them.
When Forza loads its full LODX models, they're incredibly detailed. They're only loaded at a time where the extra detail can be afforded and makes the most difference, such as when you're exploring the car. The car in this picture is also very likely outsourced, but I don't see a single "sub-par" detail about it, do you?
If you're going to complain about the lower LOD models in Forza, at least compare them to GT's equivalent. Taking a LODX example from GT and comparing it to the med/low LOD example from Forza is a bad way to compare things. Don't complain about "sub-par" models if you don't get the fact that they're low LOD for performance reasons and not lack of skill in the modelling staff. Once again, the GT pictures are the full detail models while Forza's are the lower/mid detail ones. Even for outsourced they're masterfully modelled, and there's nothing to be ashamed of in outsourcing your work. PD should definitely follow this example.
So you're saying this quality is subpar?
Between FM5 and FH2 they already have 400 cars modelled to this standard as of today. Already more than GT6 has.
Apex
Member
I don't think so, polygon-wise PD's last tesellated cars are unbeatable but Forza cars are plenty of inacuracies, out of proportion parts and bad modeled details. I'm not looking at polygon numbers but accuracy or pro modelling, rather than taking shortcuts or a typical rushed job.On X360 T10 modelled cars to a decent amount of detail suitable to that gen, on the outside I think they look just as good as PD's models,
Now with Forza 5 they've achieved a similar level of detail as PD, and even higher really because they feature fully detailed engines and stuff.
Forza 4:
Forza 5:
GT5:
The car from your example:
It still has the same incorrect rear rims, since Forza 2?
What do I agree is on the modeled engine and the not visible parts, but those details being unused in-game are a big waste of time and resources in my opinion. There is not a super-detailed damage model to make use of it and not all the cars in FM5 offer such details, only a few has detailed engines under the hood. You know how many?
That's a FM5 Forzavista interior, is not subpar of course. I was talking about the 95% of non Autovista cars from FM4.