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Poor optimization or is the Series X/PS5 underpowered? Dying light 2 as reference

IDWhite

Neo Member
A lot of you guys are really clueless about rendering. The video showed the dramatic difference between fake lighting and doing lighting the proper way (which is expensive), and you STILL think because the game doesn't look artistically good to your eyes, the PS5 should be able to render the realistic RT lighting without any performance drops. This is typical of all of you gamers that gauge art direction as technology advancements.

I can fool most of you by using a typical 2D lighting system with baked lightmaps, high res textures and normal maps and throwing in saturated colors with PBR shaders. That would be good enough for you to praise the game as the best graphics ever seen.

The art direction has his technical side, so yes, in some ways art is limited for the technology advancements. We have a recent and cleary example with UE5.

Of course a game is not all pure lighting tech, or any of the other sections you can imagine, is a combination of all.

By the way, Ps5 and Series X are perfectly capable to run RT lighting at 60 fps.
 
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Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Why can't we play a game like this at 4k/30ps with ray tracing or at least 1080p/60fps with ray tracing? As stated this game isn't a mind blower as far as graphics and curious as to why we aren't getting more performance?
Because the C-Engine (Formerly Chrome Engine) design paradigm is on establishing a large, detailed open world, as seen in Chrome, Call of Juarez and the budget focussed City Interactive titles. Or even Dying Light 1.

Not all engines are created equal. Techland focuses more on the quality of rendering open world than pushing for the latest and greatest.

Your question of ''why can it not do more?'' is the same seen at every generation.

Underpowered to achieve 4k60fps. I'm happy with my PS5 and it has great value for that price, but it's underpowered to achieve what I wanted as standard for this gen: 4k and 60fps.
And that would be highly unrealistic for the price it is offered, considering a 4K60 PC is rather hefty aswell.

So what you wanted has no basis in reality.
 

elliot5

Member
The art direction has his technical side, so yes, in some ways de art is limited for the technology advancements. We have a recent and cleary example with UE5.

Of course a game is not all pure lighting tech, or any of the other sections you can imagine, is a combination of all.

By the way, Ps5 and Series X are perfectly capable to run RT lighting at 60 fps.
at significant cuts to resolution sure
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
The art direction has his technical side, so yes, in some ways de art is limited for the technology advancements. We have a recent and cleary example with UE5.
Art direction only has a technical side if the developers decide to use advanced tech to implement the art. If there is smoke in a shot for FX, I have a few choices. I can easily be cheap and create sprite cards with transparency where I preevaluate a noise texture to apply to the sprite cards -- OR -- I can use ray-marching and voxels with evaluating the procedural noise in world space on-the-fly, compute self shadowing, and determine a density based on distance. The 2 are NOT the same technically. One gives mediocre results but is very cheap on the GPU and the other gives excellent results but will tank most GPUs. Btw, that example was from Batman AK with the Nvidiaworks FX for smoke.

By the way, Ps5 and Series X are perfectly capable to run RT lighting at 60 fps.
No they can not at 4k. The RT lighting I'm talking about is exactly what's present here in Dying Light 2's graphics engine. If you want to reduce pixel count in order to get that 60FPS, you'll have to go below 1080p and use reconstruction techniques. That clearly shows lack of bandwidth to compute at a higher pixel count and NO reconstruction technique (i.e. raw 4k framebuffers throughout the entire pipeline).
 
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ethomaz

Banned
Yes... future Gran Turismo... not 7.
He rather stop in 4k and start to increase framerate.

You know it needs hardware for that and it is not PS5.

120fps needs 2x the GPU being used in GT7.
240fps needs 4x the GPU being used in GT7.

If you don't have that then you will have to drastic decreased the graphic fidelity.
Maybe a GT7 looking like a PS3 game can run at 240fps... who knows? I'm just talking about GPU and increase in framerate add a lot of others bottlenecks like CPU, bandwidth, memory, etc.

PS5 or Series X hardware is pretty anemic for 120fps unless you accept to go back decades in graphic fidelity.
 
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IDWhite

Neo Member
at significant cuts to resolution sure

We have reconstruction tech for that.

Art direction only has a technical side if the developers decide to use advanced tech to implement the art. If there is smoke in a shot for FX, I have a few choices. I can easily be cheap and create sprite cards with transparency where I preevaluate a noise texture to apply to the sprite cards -- OR -- I can use ray-marching and voxels with evaluating the procedural noise in world space on-the-fly, compute self shadowing, and determine a density based on distance. The 2 are NOT the same technically. One gives mediocre results but is very cheap on the GPU and the other gives excellent results but will tank most GPUs. Btw, that example was from Batman AK with the Nvidiaworks FX for smoke.

The art direction has always a tech side, you have simplest or more complex ways to do things, and every one of them have an impact in visuals and performance. Not every body in the industry are trying to do RT for lights, shadows and reflections because there are other areas equally important and GPU heavy that can dramatically change visuals.

No they can not. The RT lighting I'm talking about is exactly what's present here in Dying Light 2's graphics engine. If you want to reduce pixel count in order to get that 60FPS, you'll have to go below 1080p and use reconstruction techniques. That clearly shows lack of bandwidth to compute at a higher pixel count and NO reconstruction technique.

Yes they can. 4A games has the same PC RT lighting tech implemented on console. Of course they need to use reconstruction techniques but they use too on PC.
 
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Not sure if trolling or serious. Unfortunately either way you're going to respond that you're serious.
i don't understand why you'd think he'd be trolling? are you trolling? asking for real. the game looks like complete shit. haven't tried it on a 1080p screen, but on a 4k oled on performance, it looks awful. 4k/60fps performance should be no problem.
 

Arioco

Member
Hello Miles, do you have global illumination?

Hello there.

He said current gen consoles are too weak to run a game which:

- Is 4K.
- Uses Ray Tracing.
- Has a steady frame rate.
- Is open world.

Let's see Miles Morales:

- 4K ✅
- RT ✅
- Steady frame rate ✅
- Open world ✅

The GI is just a new requirement you just made up that the person I was answering to never mentioned.

Bye Kaiser. 👋
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
What is the comparative PC performance?
On PC using DF recommended settings I'm getting roughly 90 to 100 fps with DLSS Quality. Ultra RTX settings

I have a 3080 and a 5800x. 32GB of Ram 3600 speed

Important to note is that after a while playing, maybe 3-4 hours i have to restart the game. Performance starts to tank. not sure why.
 
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Underpowered for £399? What type of performance were you expecting?
There is hardly anything out there using the true capabilities of the consoles. It will take time and effort to get the best out of these machines.
Why do you guys constantly use $399 when you're trying to support your argument? Lol, it's pretty transparent what you're doing. The consoles are both $500. That $400 model is subsidized to reach that price.
 
Art direction only has a technical side if the developers decide to use advanced tech to implement the art. If there is smoke in a shot for FX, I have a few choices. I can easily be cheap and create sprite cards with transparency where I preevaluate a noise texture to apply to the sprite cards -- OR -- I can use ray-marching and voxels with evaluating the procedural noise in world space on-the-fly, compute self shadowing, and determine a density based on distance. The 2 are NOT the same technically. One gives mediocre results but is very cheap on the GPU and the other gives excellent results but will tank most GPUs. Btw, that example was from Batman AK with the Nvidiaworks FX for smoke.


No they can not at 4k. The RT lighting I'm talking about is exactly what's present here in Dying Light 2's graphics engine. If you want to reduce pixel count in order to get that 60FPS, you'll have to go below 1080p and use reconstruction techniques. That clearly shows lack of bandwidth to compute at a higher pixel count and NO reconstruction technique (i.e. raw 4k framebuffers throughout the entire pipeline).
Can a PC run Dying Light 2 at native 4K + RT 6 60fps locked? Please just don't talke to me about DLSS fake 4K.
 
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Yes... future Gran Turismo... not 7.
He rather stop in 4k and start to increase framerate.

You know it needs hardware for that and it is not PS5.

120fps needs 2x the GPU being used in GT7.
240fps needs 4x the GPU being used in GT7.

If you don't have that then you will have to drastic decreased the graphic fidelity.
Maybe a GT7 looking like a PS3 game can run at 240fps... who knows? I'm just talking about GPU and increase in framerate add a lot of others bottlenecks like CPU, bandwidth, memory, etc.

PS5 or Series X hardware is pretty anemic for 120fps unless you accept to go back decades in graphic fidelity.
He's specifically referring to PS5 here and you're making a huge mistake and assumption in thinking that 120fps needs 2x the GPU just because GT7 is 4K60. Dirt 5 is 4K120 and we'll see how much better-looking GT7 is from Dirt 5. Dirt 5 on PS4 Pro does 1080p60fps, so by your assumption Dirt 5 shouldn't be even be possible on PS5.
 
Which number from your ass?

60fps needs exactly 2x the RAW power of 30fps.
120fps needs exactly 2x the RAW power of 60fps.
120fps needs exactly 4x the RAW power of 30fps.

There is magic or upscaling tech that changes that.... if you did not render a frame you are not 60fps anymore but 59fps... to a game be 60fps the GPU needs to render 60 frames per second... 120fps the GPU needs to render 120 frames per second... so from 60fps to 120fps you need to render 2x more frames so you do need a GPU 2x more powerful.

You're forgetting one thing... developers CAP the game at 30 or 60 or 120fps, that means the actual frame rate could be a lot higher, but they cap it to keep it consistent.

Hell, Dying Light 2 could be running at 35-45fps, but they cap it at 30 to make it run more consistently.

Also, we know that Ratchet and Clank is capable of running over 40fps because there's a fidelity mode that specifically caps it to 40 instead of 30 if you have a display that can do that.
 

Hugare

Member
Now and then I notice frame drops during gameplay on my PS5

Running at 1080p on a PS5

Simply unacceptable

It's obviously not optimized. They put the game at 1080p on performance mode to garantee a locked 60 fps, and failed anyway

PS5 / Series X can do much better than this
 

Dolomite

Member
Both the Hell blade 2 and Horizon FW gameplay previews prove that neither consoles are underpowered.
I mean look at this,
Close Up Reaction GIF by Xbox
Slow Down Reaction GIF by Xbox
Close Up Reaction GIF by Xbox



Horizon Zero Dawn Ps4 GIF by PlayStation
Horizon Zero Dawn Landscape GIF by PlayStation


This is what 1st party studios with blank checks are able to show in the FIRST YEAR of the console Gen.
 
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A lot of you guys are really clueless about rendering. The video showed the dramatic difference between fake lighting and doing lighting the proper way (which is expensive), and you STILL think because the game doesn't look artistically good to your eyes, the PS5 should be able to render the realistic RT lighting without any performance drops. This is typical of all of you gamers that gauge art direction as technology advancements.

I can fool most of you by using a typical 2D lighting system with baked lightmaps, high res textures and normal maps and throwing in saturated colors with PBR shaders. That would be good enough for you to praise the game as the best graphics ever seen.
I'm fine with being "tricked". It has worked for years. What I'm not fine with is your game looking like ass.

If you can make your game look good by using tricks, then by all means, do that. I'd rather have a fake good looking game, than a game with better tech, but looks like ass.
 

ethomaz

Banned
He's specifically referring to PS5 here and you're making a huge mistake and assumption in thinking that 120fps needs 2x the GPU just because GT7 is 4K60. Dirt 5 is 4K120 and we'll see how much better-looking GT7 is from Dirt 5. Dirt 5 on PS4 Pro does 1080p60fps, so by your assumption Dirt 5 shouldn't be even be possible on PS5.
To reach 120fps they dropped the resolution to 900p and turned down all effects.
Where are you getting 4k? The max resolution is capped in 1440p when nothing is happening.
Dirt 5 120fps mode is the uglyist thing in the game lol
And yes you need 2x the GPU power (not counting others components) to jump from 60fps to 120fps with the same graphical quality.
 
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Now and then I notice frame drops during gameplay on my PS5

Running at 1080p on a PS5

Simply unacceptable

It's obviously not optimized. They put the game at 1080p on performance mode to garantee a locked 60 fps, and failed anyway

PS5 / Series X can do much better than this
Here's what I do. I just don't buy games that have performance issues.
 

assurdum

Member
A lot of you guys are really clueless about rendering. The video showed the dramatic difference between fake lighting and doing lighting the proper way (which is expensive), and you STILL think because the game doesn't look artistically good to your eyes, the PS5 should be able to render the realistic RT lighting without any performance drops. This is typical of all of you gamers that gauge art direction as technology advancements.

I can fool most of you by using a typical 2D lighting system with baked lightmaps, high res textures and normal maps and throwing in saturated colors with PBR shaders. That would be good enough for you to praise the game as the best graphics ever seen.
WTH you are talking about. This game not use RT lighting on ps5.
 
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Tqaulity

Member
I like how you feel like you're lecturing on something, but the question posed was whether the hardware isn't powerful enough or are developers not doing enough, and your answer is both and neither...
And I like how you apparently don't read before you type. The post you quote was a direct response to the person saying he is surprised Uncharted 4 collection doesn't run at 4K/60fps on PS5. Exactly 5 posts before that one, I answered the OP question very clearly with my opening sentence: "It's absolutely poor optimization in this case."
 

Hugare

Member
Here's what I do. I just don't buy games that have performance issues.
Havent played some of the best games ever made then.

Bloodborne, Demons Souls, Ocarina of Time, The Last of Us (PS3), Skyrim and many others.

One of my favorite games of all time is Deadly Premonition. I dont care, as long as the game is fun. Dying Light 2 is fun. I'm loving it.

But they should get shit for the poor optimization job, regardless of how much fun I'm having with the game.
 
And I like how you apparently don't read before you type. The post you quote was a direct response to the person saying he is surprised Uncharted 4 collection doesn't run at 4K/60fps on PS5. Exactly 5 posts before that one, I answered the OP question very clearly with my opening sentence: "It's absolutely poor optimization in this case."
I like how you don't apparently read before you type, I'm the person who said they were surprised that it didn't run at 4K60.
 
The thread title makes no sense: you can't take as reference one of the worst-optimized games of the last 5 years..

If your results are based on the worst-case scenario, your assumptions are biased...
 
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Hello there.

He said current gen consoles are too weak to run a game which:

- Is 4K.
- Uses Ray Tracing.
- Has a steady frame rate.
- Is open world.

Let's see Miles Morales:

- 4K ✅
- RT ✅
- Steady frame rate ✅
- Open world ✅

The GI is just a new requirement you just made up that the person I was answering to never mentioned.

Bye Kaiser. 👋

I didnt make up Global Illumination, you just prefer to simplify the term Ray Tracing for obvious reasons. Again, does Miles Morales have Global Illumination? Because the game we‘re actually talking about in this thread does.
 

Beechos

Member
Having a blast so far on series x very playable. Biggest issue im experiencing are lighting issues where the screen goes super dark or bright and texture/polygon issues where they are out of place. Going into the settings and switch from perfromance to resoluyion or vice versa usually fixes. I just consider these issues typical eurojank and gives them more personality lol.
 
Havent played some of the best games ever made then.

Bloodborne, Demons Souls, Ocarina of Time, The Last of Us (PS3), Skyrim and many others.

One of my favorite games of all time is Deadly Premonition. I dont care, as long as the game is fun. Dying Light 2 is fun. I'm loving it.

But they should get shit for the poor optimization job, regardless of how much fun I'm having with the game.
Actually, yeah, I skipped a lot of good games, especially on the PS3 due to poor performance/screen tearing. Can't stand that crap.
 

Arioco

Member
I didnt make up Global Illumination, you just prefer to simplify the term Ray Tracing for obvious reasons. Again, does Miles Morales have Global Illumination? Because the game we‘re actually talking about in this thread does.


Again, the user I was quoting said a game that uses RT, not a game that has GI. You're mixing things up because a game can have GI without using RT and can use RT without having GI. RT can be used for many things, and by the way, ray-traced reflections are more taxing than ray-traced GI.

In any case what you're saying doesn't make any sense at all, because this game in particular doesn't have ray-traced GI on consoles, the only mode that uses RT at all runs at 1080p@30fps and only uses RT for shadows and ambient occlusion. I would understand your point if on console you had to choose between 4K and ray-traced GI, but that's not the case, we got neither of them.

For comparison you can play Miles Morales at 4K@30 fps (4X the resolution of Dying Light 2) while using full-rez RT reflections, which requires way more million rays a second that whatever Dying Light 2 is using for shadows and AO. It's not even close.

And Dying Light 2 isn't exactly an example of what RT can do on PC either. Other games use RT for reflections, GI, AC, shadows... Pretty much everything. Even on consoles the Matrix demo uses RT for reflections, GI and shadows while running at higher rez and the same target frame rate as Dying Light 2, and the engine is not even finished yet. 🤷‍♂️
 
I dont think anyone wants anything to do with 30fps modes this gen, even if it has all the fancy RT junk or native 4k. People want 60fps minimum and a bump up from 1080p.
Speak only for yourself. If 30fps with all the bells n whistles is smooth I have no problem with it and I imagine so are a lotta other people. Stop being so arrogant. Choices, baby, Choices.
 

zcaa0g

Member
The scary thing is the game uses rather low resolution textures. It would chug with high resolution textures.
 

dcmk7

Member
Aging like "fine" milk already.

Pretty scathing comments.

Been a bit of a theme over the past 18 months that developers dont have a lot of good things to say about the Series S. Even first party.

Having just a single mode with no RT and running at 30fps for a cross gen game is really disappointing.
 
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Mister Wolf

Member
Again, the user I was quoting said a game that uses RT, not a game that has GI. You're mixing things up because a game can have GI without using RT and can use RT without having GI. RT can be used for many things, and by the way, ray-traced reflections are more taxing than ray-traced GI.

In any case what you're saying doesn't make any sense at all, because this game in particular doesn't have ray-traced GI on consoles, the only mode that uses RT at all runs at 1080p@30fps and only uses RT for shadows and ambient occlusion. I would understand your point if on console you had to choose between 4K and ray-traced GI, but that's not the case, we got neither of them.

For comparison you can play Miles Morales at 4K@30 fps (4X the resolution of Dying Light 2) while using full-rez RT reflections, which requires way more million rays a second that whatever Dying Light 2 is using for shadows and AO. It's not even close.

And Dying Light 2 isn't exactly an example of what RT can do on PC either. Other games use RT for reflections, GI, AC, shadows... Pretty much everything. Even on consoles the Matrix demo uses RT for reflections, GI and shadows while running at higher rez and the same target frame rate as Dying Light 2, and the engine is not even finished yet. 🤷‍♂️

Neither Miles Morales nor SM:Remastered use full resolution raytraced reflections. In Fidelity Mode(4K) is uses 1/4 resolution reflections(1080). Even lower for Performance RT Mode. Insomniac's "optimization" is gutting the detail and resolution of the reflections until that weak AMD GPU can handle it.

 
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Warablo

Member
No idea why you guys are using a TPS game to compare to a FPS game. Aren't FPS games way more demanding, especially textures?

With that said, Dying Light 2 should have had at least been 2k 60 FPS on next-gen consoles.
 
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Inviusx

Member
Speak only for yourself. If 30fps with all the bells n whistles is smooth I have no problem with it and I imagine so are a lotta other people. Stop being so arrogant. Choices, baby, Choices.

Hard disagree, 30fps is a relic of the past and needs to stay there. The industry made us think it was acceptable due to us getting two back to back generations where thats all we got for the most part. The future is not 30fps.
 
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