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Poor optimization or is the Series X/PS5 underpowered? Dying light 2 as reference

Arioco

Member
Neither Miles Morales nor SM:Remastered use full resolution raytraced reflections. In Fidelity Mode(4K) is uses 1/4 resolution reflections(1080). Even lower for Performance RT Mode. Stated in this video:



Yes, that was before the patch Insomniac launched to improve RT reflections, which are now the same as Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart. Remember at launch the game didn't have an RT Performance mode at 60 fps either, so you had to choose between RT or 60 fps. Well, not anymore.

Yes, when the game launched reflections were 1/4 rez, now are full rez checkerboarded from 1/2. Basically in only a few months Insomniac doubled the rays budget + the computational cost of reconstructing reflections to full rez.

John explains it at minute 13:50:




You can have a look at this comparison before and after the patch if you want and see the difference:

https://twistedvoxel.com/spider-man-miles-morales-ray-tracing-comparison/
 
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Mister Wolf

Member
Yes, that was before the patch Insomniac launched to improve RT reflections, which are now the same as Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart. Remember at launch the game didn't have an RT Performance mode at 60 fps either, so you had to choose between RT or 60 fps. Well, not anymore.

Yes, when the game launched reflections were 1/4 rez, now are full rez checkerboarded from 1/2. Basically in only a few months Insomniac doubled the rays budget + the computational cost of reconstructing reflections to full rez.

John explains it at minute 13:50:




You can have a look at this comparison before and after the patch if you want and see the difference:

https://twistedvoxel.com/spider-man-miles-morales-ray-tracing-comparison/

If its "Checkerboarded" then it isn't full resolution.
 
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M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Number of employees

Guerrilla 360 (June 2021)
Techland 400+ (April 2021)
Guerilla obviously benefits of Sony's portfolio, engineers, etc. On the top of that they only release the game on Playstation (maybe it gets ported later to PC)...
 

Arioco

Member
If its "Checkerboarded" then it isn't full resolution.


Then why does John say that "The effective resolution has been quadruple. The same scene now showcases a 2160p pixel count in the reflection itself"? (Minute 14:26 in the video I posted) . What happens when you quadruple 1/4?
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
I’m gonna leave at you don’t know what everyone is talking about and don’t understand what optimization is. It’s either this or you’re trolling.

I mean if you insist otherwise and prefer to tell yourself this is not due to console limitation, I guess I wouldn’t waste my time on you then. No offense
 

Swift_Star

Gold Member
I mean if you insist otherwise and prefer to tell yourself this is not due to console limitation, I guess I wouldn’t waste my time on you then. No offense
Ignore list you go.
 

SlimySnake

Member
Guerilla obviously benefits of Sony's portfolio, engineers, etc. On the top of that they only release the game on Playstation (maybe it gets ported later to PC)...
Nah GG was always a graphics powerhouse before they were even bought by Sony.

Sometimes devs are simply more talented. Talent attracts talent.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
The art direction has always a tech side, you have simplest or more complex ways to do things, and every one of them have an impact in visuals and performance. Not every body in the industry are trying to do RT for lights, shadows and reflections because there are other areas equally important and GPU heavy that can dramatically change visuals.
I'm sorry but games right now aren't doing anything "new" that warrants moving ms away from complex shaders and onto other things like gameplay. If you want your team to move away from the standard of pre-baked lighting, then you'll need to push further beyond it.

Yes they can. 4A games has the same PC RT lighting tech implemented on console. Of course they need to use reconstruction techniques but they use too on PC.
4A games isn't even the same as DL2's graphics engine. Just because one company lowers samples and then puts a stamp of "RT lighting" on their game doesn't make it trivial for other game companies to implement it the way they did. Every game engine is different and each one has different techniques(and therefore different costs) even if they all claim "RT lighting".
 
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VFXVeteran

Banned
Can a PC run Dying Light 2 at native 4K + RT @60fps locked? Please just don't talke to me about DLSS fake 4K.
No it can not. I already said that RT is more expensive than the highest end graphics cards available and that it will take a couple more generations before we see raw 4k/60FPS with the full RT lighting implementation without any reconstruction technique.
 

PerfectDark

Member
I have a series x, ps5, custom built pc with a rtx 3080. I choose to play it on my series x on my lg c1.

All options to play stink. resolution also has motion blur and is unplayable. I am playing at 1080p 60fps on my new console which is a joke. Love the game. This game is nothing special in the graphics department. Should be easy to get to 1440p 60fps on series x.

To me just seems like this is a PC game badly ported to console.
 

Dream-Knife

Member
On PC using DF recommended settings I'm getting roughly 90 to 100 fps with DLSS Quality. Ultra RTX settings

I have a 3080 and a 5800x. 32GB of Ram 3600 speed

Important to note is that after a while playing, maybe 3-4 hours i have to restart the game. Performance starts to tank. not sure why.
Memory leak.
Both the Hell blade 2 and Horizon FW gameplay previews prove that neither consoles are underpowered.
I mean look at this,
Close Up Reaction GIF by Xbox
Slow Down Reaction GIF by Xbox
Close Up Reaction GIF by Xbox



Horizon Zero Dawn Ps4 GIF by PlayStation
Horizon Zero Dawn Landscape GIF by PlayStation


This is what 1st party studios with blank checks are able to show in the FIRST YEAR of the console Gen.
30fps.
Exactly. I want matrix demo visuals, but you know it will be 30fps only. One mode.

Better start saving for a good PC

2k is 1080p
2k is used to refer to 1440p. This is an example of why using 'xK' is dumb. Just use the traditional method. 720p, 1080p, 1440p, 2160p, etc.
 

John Wick

Member
Why do you guys constantly use $399 when you're trying to support your argument? Lol, it's pretty transparent what you're doing. The consoles are both $500. That $400 model is subsidized to reach that price.
First its £399 I wrote.
Second that's the price. Doesn't matter why or how.
 

Justin9mm

Member
2k is 1080p

That's as per the original DCI standard.

In video display terms and as per gaming industry standard, 2K is 1440p.

I will re-iterate and say DL2 on console only offers one performance mode being 1080p @ 60fps. It does not offer 1440p / 60 which is considered 2K which is what the original poster was referring to.

You already know this, like usual, GAF is full of smartasses and flogs.
 

FlyyGOD

Member
Ray Tracing is very taxing on RDNA2, the game is heavy enough using rasterization, without techniques like DLSS it is very hard to achieve high fps while using RT. The game needs 1080p to be able to achieve consistently 60fps.

Looking the game on PC you quickly understand why the run the way it does on consoles. It's a heavy title, and consoles can't even do the same level of RT compared to PC. Those consoles are powerful, but they don't do miracles, and RT will always be somewhere limited on them.
You really think this game is using any rnda2 tech ? I think this game is running on a last gen engine that's poorly optimized for the new systems.
 

Ev1L AuRoN

Member
You really think this game is using any rnda2 tech ? I think this game is running on a last gen engine that's poorly optimized for the new systems.
It's using their rasterization prowess, which is the RDNA2 biggest strength. What tech you think would change that outcome? It's a matter of raw power, nothing else.
 

Justin9mm

Member
1440k is 2.5k.
2560x1440 in 16:9 aspect ratio.

https://linustechtips.com/topic/691408-2k-does-not-mean-2560×1440/
In the gaming industry and modern displays, 2K is commonly referred to as 1440p as you damn well know.

You also damn well know that the person you originally responded to also meant 1440p when he said DL2 can't do 2K / 60

Let me get technical with you.. DL2 does not do 1440p @ 60fps on current gen consoles.

Get a life.
 
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Warablo

Member
1080p is not 2k.
1440p = 2k

Sony consoles do not support 1440p, which is a shame because 1440p is the sweet spot for monitors for that 60 fps experience. With that being said, Dying Light 2 runs well on PC.
 
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1080p is not 2k.
1440p = 2k

Sony consoles do not support 1440p, which is a shame because 1440p is the sweet spot for monitors for that 60 fps experience. With that being said, Dying Light 2 runs well on PC.
Why would 1920 x 1080 not be 2K.

If we refer 3840 x 2160 as 4K, then 2560 x 1440 is 2,5K .
 

RydarGaf

Member
Look at how ID Tech 7 Game Engine runs DOOM Eternal on the new gen consoles.
Obviously, tech land engine isn't as sophisticated so the result is subpar performance.


"NEXT GEN UPDATE FEATURES BREAKDOWN

These next gen versions bring the following upgrades to each respective platform, achieving new performance and graphical fidelity not yet experienced on any DOOM console version:

Xbox Series X

Three New Graphics Modes

o Ray Tracing Mode running at 1800p/60 FPS

o Performance Mode running at 1800p/120 FPS

o Balanced Mode running at 4K/60 FPS

HDR 10 in any Graphics ModeUltra-Quality Style Graphics SettingsCross-Gen BATTLEMODE support with XBox OneVariable Refresh RateVariable Rate Shading

Xbox Series S

Two New Graphics Modes

o Performance Mode running at 1080p/120 FPS

o Balanced Mode running at 1440p/60 FPS

HDR 10 in any Graphics ModeCross-Gen BATTLEMODE support with XBox OneVariable Refresh RateVariable Rate ShadingNOTE: Ray Tracing Mode is not available on Xbox Series S

PlayStation 5

Three New Graphics Modes

o Ray Tracing Mode running at 1800p/60 FPS

o Performance Mode running at 1584p/120 FPS

o Balanced Mode running at 4K/60 FPS

HDR 10 in any Graphics ModeUltra-Quality Style Graphics SettingsCross-Gen BATTLEMODE support with PlayStation 4DualSense™ adaptive trigger support"
 

RydarGaf

Member
I have a PS5 and for me is clearly underpowered, especially for a machine that is supposed to long for 5 or even 7 years. I mean, Tsushima or Uncharted not achieving 4k60fps means 1440p30fps when true next gen graphics, like Unreal 5, arrives.
Those games were created targeting lesser hardware with outdated engine.

Doom Eternal runs 1800p 60fps with Ray Tracing on for PS5. Why? Because ID Tech 7 is the most modern and advanced game engine in the world. ID Tech 7 should be the litmus test of PS5 or Series X are capable of achieving.
 

TonyK

Member
Those games were created targeting lesser hardware with outdated engine.

Doom Eternal runs 1800p 60fps with Ray Tracing on for PS5. Why? Because ID Tech 7 is the most modern and advanced game engine in the world. ID Tech 7 should be the litmus test of PS5 or Series X are capable of achieving.
I have Doom Eternal in PS5 and I played before in PC, and game runs so smooth because graphics are correct, nothing more. Technically it does nothing relevant. PS4 Uncharted is way more impressive technically than Doom Eternal in PS5.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
Memory leak.

30fps.

2k is used to refer to 1440p. This is an example of why using 'xK' is dumb. Just use the traditional method. 720p, 1080p, 1440p, 2160p, etc.
I just realized that the permanent drop in frame only happens in one specific area, called the "Fish Eye". 100% of the time, doesn't matter how much time. So it's probably still a memory leak, but it's definitely triggered by that area and you have to at least go to the main menu when out of that area and relog to fix it.
 

IDWhite

Neo Member
I'm sorry but games right now aren't doing anything "new" that warrants moving ms away from complex shaders and onto other things like gameplay. If you want your team to move away from the standard of pre-baked lighting, then you'll need to push further beyond it.

Yeah sure, UE5 is not doing nothing new, and every other AAA dev with his own engine isn't continously evolving the tech to adapt it to new proyects.

4A games isn't even the same as DL2's graphics engine. Just because one company lowers samples and then puts a stamp of "RT lighting" on their game doesn't make it trivial for other game companies to implement it the way they did. Every game engine is different and each one has different techniques(and therefore different costs) even if they all claim "RT lighting".

4A games are doing RT lighting on consoles, that's a fact, and you are trying to downplay what they accomplish in their approach because other games are only doing it on PC.

Yes on PC they could do RT better because they have much more resources, but even with lower resolution, lower samples and lower rays per pixel consoles are still using the same technology as the ultra setting on a high end PC.

Anyway I'm not going to continue discussing, you have an opinion totally tailored to your personal tastes.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
Yeah sure, UE5 is not doing nothing new, and every other AAA dev with his own engine isn't continously evolving the tech to adapt it to new proyects.
UE5 is doing something new. I'm not trying to imply that it isn't. But UE5 is using RT for their lighting though. The Nanite tech is amazing but again, we are only talking about 1 company right now. We are talking about all the other companies that are in existance now.

4A games are doing RT lighting on consoles, that's a fact, and you are trying to downplay what they accomplish in their approach because other games are only doing it on PC.
Our disagreement is that just because 4A can do it, doesn't mean that other companies can do it too without a big hit to the GPU. 4A has always been a leader of graphics tech (likewise with Epic).
 

MikeM

Member
It's using their rasterization prowess, which is the RDNA2 biggest strength. What tech you think would change that outcome? It's a matter of raw power, nothing else.
Primitive and mesh shaders utilization. I’m anxiously waiting for a game to use these which should drastically increase performance.
 
1080p is not 2k.
1440p = 2k

Sony consoles do not support 1440p, which is a shame because 1440p is the sweet spot for monitors for that 60 fps experience. With that being said, Dying Light 2 runs well on PC.

2K is actually a Digital Cinema standard:

2K = 2x1024 = 2048 horizontal pixels (1152 vertical pixels with 16:9 AR)

1440p = 2560 horizontal pixels

Not the same thing!
 
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PeteBull

Member
Can't wait for PS5 Pro that lets you max out 2 of 3 features instead of 1 of 3!

And then PS6 that plays PS5 games at 4k/60 with RT! Sometimes with a patch, sometimes with a new PS6 version.

Your path is clear, consumer! No more questions!
That would be ur normal turn of events but atm with crypto boom and gpu prices so high, even ms and sony cant afford to provide us with enough consoles xsx/ps5, remember they dont exist in a vacuum either, all their cheap deals made with factories in 2018-2019 are probably over so they gotta pay more, hence the console shortages and cutting predictions of yearly sales numbers.
If/when crypto boom ends and we will go back to normal or close to normal prices of gpus- then and only then we might expect midgen upgrades again- otherwise they would be cheapest 999$ so very unlikely ms or sony decides for such a move.
 

BlackTron

Member
That would be ur normal turn of events but atm with crypto boom and gpu prices so high, even ms and sony cant afford to provide us with enough consoles xsx/ps5, remember they dont exist in a vacuum either, all their cheap deals made with factories in 2018-2019 are probably over so they gotta pay more, hence the console shortages and cutting predictions of yearly sales numbers.
If/when crypto boom ends and we will go back to normal or close to normal prices of gpus- then and only then we might expect midgen upgrades again- otherwise they would be cheapest 999$ so very unlikely ms or sony decides for such a move.

If there would be Pro models, I think it would not happen for a long time, long enough for them to figure something out. If they do it, it will only be because the gen lasts a very long time. I'm talking 4-5 years in, long enough to see how the market changes in that time.

For sure there will be refreshes at least, I'm waiting for the PS5 slim.
 

RydarGaf

Member
First of all both of the current gen consoles arent some magical infinite power mashines, they are roughly equivalent to r7 3700x cpu with lowered clocks/cache(so in actual performance roughly i5 10400f max)combined with rx 6600xt gpu(xsx bit faster but still slower from 6700xt gpu and it varries on game by game basis), nvidia wise around rtx 2070s to rtx 2080 but way worse in raytracing.

Here 6600xt gpu so u can see how it compares to other pc gpu's https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-6600-xt.c3774

Now in specific dying light 2 case- this game, maxed can bring 5k usd pc to its knees even if u use dlss performance mode(meaning its internal rendering res isnt 4k but way way below i think around or at 1440p)) so dont expect it to look and run flawlessly on 400-500$ boxes.
That GPU specifically targets 1080p resolution. Has much lower bandwidth than PS5 Gpu. Other than that, you are correct about them being in the same ballpark.

However, techland engine is mostly to blame here for the terrible performance, not the console hardware. Doom Eternal runs 1800p 60fps with Ray Tracing on while not having any frame rate dips. The techland engine isn't as efficient in utilizing all CPU cores like ID Tech 7 that powers DOOM Eternal.

Wait a couple of years, game engines from first party studios, updates to frostbite, and ID Tech will show us what next gen consoles are really capable of doing.
 

The Alien

Member
Poor optimization.

Get it out the door patch it later. A sad reality of quality in the gaming landscape today (and for the past few years).
 

Arioco

Member
Primitive and mesh shaders utilization. I’m anxiously waiting for a game to use these which should drastically increase performance.


The Matrix demo does use Primity/Mesh Shaders and performance is not that great... yet. Lots of optimizations still needed there. I know the engine itself is not even finished yet but I think 60 fps with that visual quality is out of the table this gen. We'll see.
 

PeteBull

Member
However, techland engine is mostly to blame here for the terrible performance, not the console hardware. Doom Eternal runs 1800p 60fps with Ray Tracing on while not having any frame rate dips. The techland engine isn't as efficient in utilizing all CPU cores like ID Tech 7 that powers DOOM Eternal.
Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal has one of best if not best optimised engine ever, i saw vids when with proper hardware u could have temporary get well over 500fps :)
And about 6600xt being 1080p gpu, true, but as we get proof by actual game, dying light 2 is 1080p60fps on ps5/xsx(and no, nowhere near close to max settings either) so yup, 1080p too just like 6600xt :)

proof with settings/res and ingame fps 6600xt and r5 3600 combo
 
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