President Trump will deliver a prime-time address Tuesday, 9PM

Bluntman

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May 8, 2017
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But most of them are illegal, they have no proper reason to claim "asylum", they need to enter the country illegally, and stay illegally. They will not just go to port of entry because there is a wall.
As our example shows they have to if they want asylum.

Obviously most of them know that their claim is false so they don't even bother. They sieged the wall one time, they did some hunger strike the other time so the EU liberals could report about how inhuman the Horrible Hungarian Dictatorship (TM) (C) is, then they fucked off and now we have basicly zero illegal immigrant problem.
 

NickFire

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Mar 12, 2014
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This is how I feel.

I want to support action but I don’t know what action is best.
I want to see the left legitimately compromise on something important enough to the right that Trump won the presidency over it. That's what I want to see more than anything - actual unity to get something done which has tremendous support from the right. People speak like robots about unifying our country and ending the divisiveness. Well, if that's a real goal get this done. 5 billion for this wall is peanuts when it is important enough to so many that he won the presidency over it.
 
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weltalldx

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Feb 25, 2017
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I want to see the left legitimately compromise on something important enough to the right that Trump won the presidency over it. That's what I want to see more than anything - actual unity to get something done which has tremendous support from the right. People speak like robots about unifying our country and ending the divisiveness. Well, if that's a real goal get this done. 5 billion for this wall is peanuts when it is important enough to so many that he won the presidency over it.
That is assuming our elected officials care about improving the condition of society and working toward the greater good. Sadly, politicians on both sides only care about their career and what it takes to win reelection. Compromise is impossible with the dishonest media muddying the water and causing widespread misinformation and panic at every turn.
 
Dec 3, 2018
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1. It is 110 mile long, Trump is proposing 1000 ~ 2000 mile long wall. Much easier to have a ladder or tunnel some where in the middle.
We've been using captchas to train Amazon's drone program to identify store fronts and motorcycles for years. We'll just start seeing "Click on the ladders and holes in the ground" next.

Seriously though, the goal of the wall is not 100% halt illegal immigration. That would be impossible. It's to slow it down, and to increase the risk of doing it to the point where it is less of an attractive options. There's a few hundred thousand illegal border crossers captured each year, which means that the number that succeed is higher still. Bottlenecks, even hundreds of them, like ladders or holes in the ground, will become easier to spot the more they are used and will slow the influx of people considerably.

For instance, you mentioned boats. Well, boats are a far riskier and costlier proposition. There's no way there will be hundreds of thousands of people crossing the border on boats without us being able to see it. Some will get through, sure, but far, far less than 2000 miles of open, unpatroled border.

I doubt a wall can make huge difference.
But what if it just makes enough of a difference?
 
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Wall doesn't solve for overstayed visas.
It's also not going to only cost 5 billion, that's a total fantasy. Three or four times that easily
 
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Dude Abides

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Apr 8, 2009
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I want to see the left legitimately compromise on something important enough to the right that Trump won the presidency over it. That's what I want to see more than anything - actual unity to get something done which has tremendous support from the right. People speak like robots about unifying our country and ending the divisiveness. Well, if that's a real goal get this done. 5 billion for this wall is peanuts when it is important enough to so many that he won the presidency over it.
This is a refreshingly honest stance, and probably what is really driving pro-wall sentiment. It doesn't really matter if it's a good idea on the merits, its importance is that it would be a symbol of "the Left" bending the knee to Trump and his supporters, which will (somehow) create unity.
 

NickFire

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This is a refreshingly honest stance, and probably what is really driving pro-wall sentiment. It doesn't really matter if it's a good idea on the merits, its importance is that it would be a symbol of "the Left" bending the knee to Trump and his supporters, which will (somehow) create unity.
Well, I do support the actual wall to be clear. I know you question or disagree with the cost-benefit analysis, but on that I would agree to disagree with you. You have your position and reasonable people disagree all the time.

As for "bending the knee", I think it's a shame you see it that way. It was not my intent, but I can understand why you felt that way based on my post and other disagreements. What I should have added is that Trump is President because the people who put them there are concerned, and rebelled against having their concerns either rejected outright outright by the left, or pandered to by the right until the election was over (when they would be given excuses instead of actual action). So if people really care about unity, they will make these people happy and prove to them they are listened to now that they have screamed into the loudest bullhorn imaginable by electing Trump.
 

Ixiah

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Feb 16, 2018
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Because it doesn't work. How can a wall stop or slow down illegal immigration. It is so easily bypassed.
How can Airport Security ever hope to repel all Terrorists board a Plane ?
How can Cops ever prevent 100% of all Crimes ?
Can your Door guarantee to keep out every Thief ?
Just throw it all away, if its not 100%, its not worth it!
 

NickFire

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I thought that was really sad, too. It's as if some people can't see things beyond the power dynamic of their "team."
I accept fault for not articulating why I thought moving forward with wall would help bridge some of the divide when I made the post. Politics is nasty talk and it's easy for people to assume you meant something you did not really mean.
 

nephilimdj

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Jan 31, 2011
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1) the agricultural industry is fucked if illegals get kicked out 2) I don't care if a wall is built but I want my tax money going to things that are more relevant to my interests, most people who didn't vote for Trump probably agree 3) Trump should've done this shit before the 2018 election, it's his own fault for wasting time on obamacare for half year and pointless airport bans 4) trump doesn't really give a shit about it himself as made obvious by his earlier comments on bypassing it for the budget but 5) if he doesn't get it done his rabid base who voted primarily due to slogans like "build that wall" will be pretty pissed at him, as he discovered after listening to some Fox news. this means less chance of him winning in 2020 as his only actual policy accomplishment will be a tax cut that primarily benefited the wealthy.
Trump already addressed this, he wanted to follow germany, which allows 1million people into germany every year for things like agriculture on 6-12month visas and crack down on cash in hand exploiting.
Australia and many other countries have already adopted this.

10 years ago farm jobs were Vietnam, Cambodia and other poorer Asian countries being exploited under illegal dodgy cash in hand in Australia. Now a big mix from all over asia, especially Taiwan and Island countries (Fiji, Solomon islands). I know of people I have meet though friends that make 600USD a week in Aus in meat factories, they don't speak any English.

Been even a issue here in past in Australia, female workers from Asian countries are paid too little then told they can make extra from prostitution. Fact DNC want this system forever is fucked.
 
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Dude Abides

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Well, I do support the actual wall to be clear. I know you question or disagree with the cost-benefit analysis, but on that I would agree to disagree with you. You have your position and reasonable people disagree all the time.

As for "bending the knee", I think it's a shame you see it that way. It was not my intent, but I can understand why you felt that way based on my post and other disagreements. What I should have added is that Trump is President because the people who put them there are concerned, and rebelled against having their concerns either rejected outright outright by the left, or pandered to by the right until the election was over (when they would be given excuses instead of actual action). So if people really care about unity, they will make these people happy and prove to them they are listened to now that they have screamed into the loudest bullhorn imaginable by electing Trump.
Whether you characterize it as bending the knee or not, it amounts to the argument that wall opponents should give in to what they view as bad policy because (1) Trump won; (2) Trump supporters really want the wall; and therefore (3) giving in will promote unity. But what is the basis for believing that Trump supporters will suddenly decide that the same people Trump has been calling open borders advocates who love illegal immigrants so much they're willing to see Mollie Tibbets and Ronil Singh die are actually not so bad after all just because Trump gets his way on this issue?
 

pimentel1

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Jul 22, 2018
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Dr. Who once encountered Donald Trump. The police box appeared on the White House grounds not long ago. After a talk, Donald asked, “Why don’t you stop me?” The Doctor replied, “You’re a fixed point in history. You turn everything liberal. Look at Central California.”
 

quickwhips

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Jan 26, 2009
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If that was true then they wouldn't default to fearmongering and stirring the emotions of reactive anger. They don't stick to the message of honest immigration.
Why do we need to talk about doing the correct thing. When people are in line we don’t say great job waiting patiently. We say fuck that person who cut I’ve been waiting for hours!
 

NickFire

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Whether you characterize it as bending the knee or not, it amounts to the argument that wall opponents should give in to what they view as bad policy because (1) Trump won; (2) Trump supporters really want the wall; and therefore (3) giving in will promote unity. But what is the basis for believing that Trump supporters will suddenly decide that the same people Trump has been calling open borders advocates who love illegal immigrants so much they're willing to see Mollie Tibbets and Ronil Singh die are actually not so bad after all just because Trump gets his way on this issue?
Trump is the effect, not the cause. As such, the dems have a choice if they value unity (of US Citizens) over winning. Either reach across the aisle and hope for the best, or don't and maintain the status quo. I don't guarantee a sudden hug fest if the people who elected him were actually given the peanuts needed to accomplish their goal. I can only guarantee that leaving the issue unresolved will keep them just as angry as they were in November 2016. If listening to the message they sent and reaching across the aisle is not something the dems are willing to do, then whatever. They may alleviate the effect in 2020, but the cause will remain and continue to fester division.
 

NickFire

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The amount of people who don't realize this is astounding. The whole Trump Derangement Syndrome is just a form of denial that the general populace is sick of politics as usual.
Most people don't realize it, because the people at the top realize it far too well.
 

Barsinister

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I do enjoy me some snark. But, in this instance it is misplaced and dishonest. Misplaced in that I am only a third generation away from immigrants myself. Here's the difference, my great-grandparents gave up the old country and became Americans. They learned English and assimilated. My Grandmother couldn't even speak her parent's native tongue. Being an American is an honor, I always believed. Self governance is not for everyone, let them stay where they are at.

America and Americans have a culture that is unique among all of history. To dismiss it with an equivocation to any other is shameful, in my opinion.
 

DeepEnigma

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Dec 3, 2013
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The US is literally a country of immigrants.
Let's be honest here, and I would think you of all people would agree to this instead of using the typical talking point that is disingenuous word play.

It was a country of colonists, that created immigration laws after the formation of the Constitution, by those born here.

It is a country of native people, Americans since the formation, that have immigration policy. Country of Americans that have some of the most lenient immigration policies.
 
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MrTickles

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Feb 22, 2018
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The US is literally a country of immigrants.
It's not a country of illegal immigrants. 95% of them from day 1 arrived officially via a sea port, air port or border access point and signed some documents.
 
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pimentel1

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Jul 22, 2018
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It's not a country of illegal immigrants. 95% of them from day 1 arrived officially via a sea port, air port or border access point and signed some documents.
I’m sure the indians loved it when our founders came on over. We are all illegal.
 

Trey

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Mar 3, 2010
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I want to see the left legitimately compromise on something important enough to the right that Trump won the presidency over it. That's what I want to see more than anything - actual unity to get something done which has tremendous support from the right. People speak like robots about unifying our country and ending the divisiveness. Well, if that's a real goal get this done. 5 billion for this wall is peanuts when it is important enough to so many that he won the presidency over it.
Why is it that Democrats are expected to compromise to the right, but Conservatives are never expected to compromise when they hold any power?
 

ssolitare

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Trump is the lone Wolf in trying to step on everyone's neck in trying to get the wall.

Not gonna let that slide.
 

Barsinister

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What exactly are you trying to appeal to, no wall wanting people? Is it our sense of fairness? Justice? Pride? Fear?

What is the exact argument against a wall? It won't work? Too expensive? Immoral?

Let's start with a foundation in which we can build an argument. What is the axiom?
 

DeepEnigma

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What exactly are you trying to appeal to, no wall wanting people? Is it our sense of fairness? Justice? Pride? Fear?

What is the exact argument against a wall? It won't work? Too expensive? Immoral?

Let's start with a foundation in which we can build an argument. What is the axiom?
It is because Trump ran his campaign on it, nothing more. The establishment's capitalists fear he would be a lock for 2020 if he gets this. The same people now "against it" had no issue in the Obama days when they were for it.

It is partisanship, nothing more. That is why I said, we are being played by both sides, constantly.
 
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Barsinister

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It is because Trump ran his campaign on it, nothing more. The establishment's capitalists fear he would be a lock for 2020 if he gets this. The same people now "against it" had no issue in the Obama days when they were for it.

It is partisanship, nothing more.
I get that part of it. But what is the foundation of the argument? If we really want to discuss a thing, let us start at the beginning and build a foundation of knowledge. If it seems too difficult to start, I will get us going, if nobody disagrees.
 

ssolitare

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It is because Trump ran his campaign on it, nothing more. The establishment's capitalists fear he would be a lock for 2020 if he gets this. The same people now "against it" had no issue in the Obama days when they were for it.

It is partisanship, nothing more. That is why I said, we are being played by both sides, constantly.
If Obama wanted a wall that spanned the entire border, I would not be dumb enough to want that wall.

Let alone Trump's rhetoric around it.
 

DeepEnigma

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I get that part of it. But what is the foundation of the argument? If we really want to discuss a thing, let us start at the beginning and build a foundation of knowledge. If it seems too difficult to start, I will get us going, if nobody disagrees.
Honestly, I do not think anyone in here has a damn clue other than parroting their party lines.

But I support you endeavor in cracking into that very aspect of the core issues in reality, separated from partisan bickering.
 

#Phonepunk#

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Sep 4, 2018
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people try to act like nationalism is this shocking new development. it's not. borders are a big deal in 21st century USA. this is the TSA, this is international spying, this IS what the USA is all about. there is already a wall. you can't just move to another country and get citizenship there, you have to declare yourself against your home country. this is already the state of things. add to that the giant national, unaccountable Homeland Security apparatus, which Democrats are perfectly happy to fund so long as none of that money says "The Wall" on it, all of it speaks to the direction the US has been in ever since it reacted to 9/11.

we already have a wall, we have a bunch of fences, this was even a thing in 2008. so they build more walls. will the wall stop everyone? no. will it stop some people? yes. what are we supposed to do, keep all of these people in camps near the border? but we are already doing that, this is what the wall is trying to stop, however in it's silly way. what is the alternative? it would be nice to hear a different plan. it seems the current plan of just taking in people and putting them in camps separate from the rest of society isn't working so good. what if, instead of a wall, we have a Smart Wall, and drones all over watching people, and if someone is caught they... get put into a camp? get sent back? we give them some land for free out in the middle of nowhere? we don't really have a good plan. have Dems even bothered to come up with an immigration reform plan? or are they just going to run w the whole "why bother, we aren't in power yet" typical cowardly calculating shit?
 
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DeepEnigma

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If Obama wanted a wall that spanned the entire border, I would not be dumb enough to want that wall.

Let alone Trump's rhetoric around it.
Obama did what his capitalists told him to do (which was not much different than Bush, or Clinton before him). There is a reason both partisan isle's capitalists dislike Trump, you can't make a wealthy man rich. ;)
 

ssolitare

Manbaby: The Member
Jan 12, 2009
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people try to act like nationalism is this shocking new development. it's not. borders are a big deal in 21st century USA. this is the TSA, this is international spying, this IS what the USA is all about. there is already a wall. you can't just move to another country and get citizenship there, you have to declare yourself against your home country. this is already the state of things. add to that the giant national, unaccountable Homeland Security apparatus, which Democrats are perfectly happy to fund so long as none of that money says "The Wall" on it, all of it speaks to the direction the US has been in ever since it reacted to 9/11.

we already have a wall, we have a bunch of fences, this was even a thing in 2008. so they build more walls. will the wall stop everyone? no. will it stop some people? yes. what are we supposed to do, keep all of these people in camps near the border? but we are already doing that, this is what the wall is trying to stop, however in it's silly way. what is the alternative? it would be nice to hear a different plan. it seems the current plan of just taking in people and putting them in camps separate from the rest of society isn't working so good. what if, instead of a wall, we have a Smart Wall, and drones all over watching people, and if someone is caught they... get put into a camp? get sent back? we give them some land for free out in the middle of nowhere? we don't really have a good plan. have Dems even bothered to come up with an immigration reform plan? or are they just going to run w the whole "why bother, we aren't in power yet" typical cowardly calculating shit?
A plan you ask for? First, what is the goal?
 

ssolitare

Manbaby: The Member
Jan 12, 2009
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Obama did what his capitalists told him to do (which was not much different than Bush, or Clinton before him). There is a reason both partisan isle's capitalists dislike Trump, you can't make a wealthy man rich. ;)
Trump has done many things that the capitalists told him to do. Now he's trying to jack off to his ego, imagine if other people were that stupid.
 

DeepEnigma

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Trump has done many things that the capitalists told him to do. Now he's trying to jack off to his ego, imagine if other people were that stupid.
He has done far more to piss them off than any president in history, well, anyone not named JFK. ;)
 

Teletraan1

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May 17, 2012
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Take the wall funding out problem solved.
It is part of the needed package.

The reason that 90% of the heroin comes through border crossings in Trucks is that it is the path of least resistance. Right now they might lose 1 in 10 or 1 in 15 trucks but the flow continues. If you only install high tech drug detection at those points of entry and they can only get 1 in 10 through they will just move to the next path of least resistance. That would be the almost 1500 miles of border that doesn't have fences. There are around 2000 open positions for border security at the southern border. They can't get enough people to cover all that distance. Drones might detect but aren't going to intercept. I doubt drone strikes will go over well.
Your solution is just playing a shell game with cartels moving 65 billion dollars a year worth of product. They aren't just going to throw their hands in the air and give up. They will just move to the next easiest point of entry. The game should be pushing them to expensive and less reliable means. Your solutions move the statistic to 85% of the heroin to some other point of entry.

That is just heroin. Layer on meth, fentanyl, cocaine, human trafficking, illegal border crossings and I can't fathom why none of that is a problem worth solving.
 

Barsinister

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I always like to start at as close to the beginning of an argument as I can. It helps to make sure that we cover all of the bases.

What are the most important things one needs in life? Can we agree that it is food and shelter?
 

quickwhips

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Wall doesn't solve for overstayed visas.
It's also not going to only cost 5 billion, that's a total fantasy. Three or four times that easily
Good thing we have people who can focus on overstayed visas. Maybe the wall will give them more time to focus on that also.
 

NickFire

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Why is it that Democrats are expected to compromise to the right, but Conservatives are never expected to compromise when they hold any power?
That question suggests something that is not true. And in this particular case, I am saying to compromise on the very thing that caused the biggest political upset in World History (IMO at least).
 

pramod

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My own feeling is that is that at this point the whole thing is so poisoned by partisanship, mainly due to the media, that no compromise is possible.

Because it just doesnt make sense. The Dems already approved previously 1.6 billion to Trump to build barriers. Why is asking for another 5.7 billion suddenly immoral? What changed? Whats the difference this time?

The difference is that both Trump and the media have set the narrative that THIS IS IT. This is the fight that will ultimately decide the fate of the wall, when in reality, its already being built and Dems have already given Trump some money for it. It's all a big joke.
 
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KaeporaGaebora

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There's a few hundred thousand illegal border crossers captured each year, which means that the number that succeed is higher still.
I'm not sure what you're claiming with that argument. Are you arguing that there are more illegal border crossers that get away than there are those that are captured? if so, what logic (or evidence) do you have to support that argument?
 

Rentahamster

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1) the agricultural industry is fucked if illegals get kicked out
I was never really comfortable with this particular argument. Especially when I hear other progressives/liberals/leftists/whatever argue this case, because it acquiesces to the status quo of (ironically) welfare subsidized capitalists exploiting a vulnerable labor class, and acts like that's a desirable outcome.