President Trump will deliver a prime-time address Tuesday, 9PM

Dec 3, 2013
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I was never really comfortable with this particular argument. Especially when I hear other progressives/liberals/leftists/whatever argue this case, because it acquiesces to the status quo of (ironically) welfare subsidized capitalists exploiting a vulnerable labor class, and acts like that's a desirable outcome.
It is funny when I hear those on the left use that "appeal to the privileged" to keep what is effectively slave wage labor on agricultural plantations. :pie_thinking:
 
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Good thing we have people who can focus on overstayed visas. Maybe the wall will give them more time to focus on that also.
Sure, why not burn billions on a pointless wall? It won't stop actual effective immigration control from doing its job so might as well stick it to the libs. Congress is throwing money at border security but the wall is literally a meme that Roger Stone fed to Trump because it tested well. There's no basis for it on actual efficacy
 
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tbf we have been burning billions on blowing up people, torturing people, accidentally droning schools and hospitals, arming insurgent groups, providing arms and weaponry to warzones, etc. for the past decade plus, throwing some of that to a physical barrier actually seems like some of the less egregious Homeland Defense spending we have done
 
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Nov 5, 2016
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This video made me chuckle, the reactions at the end, they are flabbergasted!

There’s a thread devoted just to this video

I’ll repeat my original reply, basically that there are numerous videos of people on all sides being tricked like this.

IMO isn’t indicative of anything of any group as a whole, at all, in any of the cases.

I posted a vid of it being done to Trump supporters in that thread too
 
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Dec 5, 2013
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There’s a thread devoted just to this video

I’ll repeat my original reply, basically that there are numerous videos of people on all sides being tricked like this.

IMO isn’t indicative of anything of any group as a whole, at all, in any of the cases.

I posted a vid of it being done to Trump supporters in that thread too
DIdn't see the thread. It wasn't a jab against young democrats or any group in general. Just to show how easy it is to have pre-conceived notions shattered when exposed to more informations.
Although in this case the difference is that the individuals quoted are now saying completely different things for 'reasons' so that they might be hypocrites. In the Trump supporter version it shows something different.
 
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DIdn't see the thread. It wasn't a jab against young democrats or any group in general. Just to show how easy it is to have pre-conceived notions shattered when exposed to more informations.
Although in this case the difference is that the individuals quoted are now saying completely different things for 'reasons' so that they might be hypocrites. In the Trump supporter version it shows something different.
There’s zero difference in the videos of Trump supporters being tricked. Do you need me to post every vid of someone doing this to people? Or you just wanna sit in your computer chair pointing at the screen, cackling “LIBTARDS BAD!”

It happens to people on every side. It’s the same in each video.

I’m tired of this.

I appreciate the people who are willing to express their beliefs while at least giving every side a fair chance. I’m tired of the “just here to mock whoever I disagree with” nonsense. Grow up

My ignore list filling up so fast.

LMFAO at “nah my side got tricked less than your side”
 
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There’s zero difference in the videos of Trump supporters being tricked. Do you need me to post every vid of someone doing this to people? Or you just wanna sit in your computer chair pointing at the screen, cackling “LIBTARDS BAD!”

It happens to people on every side. It’s the same in each video.

I’m tired of this.

My ignore list filling up so fast.
Did you... did you read what I wrote? Cause I agreed with you on the general message of the two videos.
Except one video shows the originator of the quotes as hypocrites (they wanted border security/fences, illegal immigration must be stopped but now is ok) and the other shows that people are willing to support anything they think Trump said.
So I don't know what you're on about with your attack on my own character.

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Looks like you weren't done typing. Anyway put me on ignore if you'd like I don't care.
Also thanks for the laugh at 'my side' as I'm not American, don't like either side and don't really have any stake in this.
 
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Dec 3, 2018
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I'm not sure what you're claiming with that argument. Are you arguing that there are more illegal border crossers that get away than there are those that are captured? if so, what logic (or evidence) do you have to support that argument?
There's two things at play here. First is, we don't know what we don't know. That is, if we don't catch them, how do we know they exist? So there's no way to know for sure. The second thing is that there are thousands of miles of basically unsecured border. I have to assume that the relative difficulty of catching border crossers means that we are not particularly successful at it. My speculation is that at least as many cross the border successfully as are caught, but I would not be terribly surprised if we were only getting a quarter or (much) less.

A few years ago, my father-in-law went of vacation to a border town in Texas where Mexicans would leave little handcrafted trinkets for tourists to buy. You just pick up the trinket you want and drop the money in a small bowl nearby. Then, a bunch of Mexicans would just walk right across the border, pick up the money and replace the trinkets. This entire business plan is built upon the idea that they can just cross the border whenever they want and nobody cared. Things might be a bit different in today's more paranoid climate, but I think it shows how loose the border was controlled in the past.
 
Oct 24, 2017
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So what is the current situation? Let's summarize:

Both sides agree there is a "problem" at the border.

One side has proposed one solution and asking for money.

The other side is willing to shutdown the government simply because they don't agree with the solution.
 
Jun 23, 2014
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So what is the current situation? Let's summarize:

Both sides agree there is a "problem" at the border.

One side has proposed one solution and asking for money.

The other side is willing to shutdown the government simply because they don't agree with the solution.
Actually both dem and rep passed a spending bill without the wall funding, Trump didn't sign it.
 
Mar 3, 2010
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So what is the current situation? Let's summarize:

Both sides agree there is a "problem" at the border.

One side has proposed one solution and asking for money.

The other side is willing to shutdown the government simply because they don't agree with the solution.
That's one way to look at it. Another way is to say that this "problem" can be worked on with the government fully funded, as it should be.
 
Jun 26, 2018
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That's one way to look at it. Another way is to say that this "problem" can be worked on with the government fully funded, as it should be.
Trump is right on this. And he will win this fight. What he is proposing is a scaled back, modest proposal to include a wall and reinforced fencing for 722 miles of the border. Trump is the only one who has offered to negotiate on this. And any spending bill needs to be signed by Trump. Elections have consequences.
 
Likes: pramod
Mar 3, 2010
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Trump is right on this. And he will win this fight. What he is proposing is a scaled back, modest proposal to include a wall and reinforced fencing for 722 miles of the border. Trump is the only one who has offered to negotiate on this. And any spending bill needs to be signed by Trump. Elections have consequences.
He can negotiate with the government open. Surely he can argue his policy without using the entire government as collateral, right?

You say "elections have consequences," but that is why Republicans no longer have the House and not enough of the Senate to just jam this spending bill through. I'm sure that maxim will provide much solace for him as this shutdown drags on with most of America blaming him for it.
 
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He can negotiate with the government open. Surely he can argue his policy without using the entire government as collateral, right?
Nope. The Democrats have shown no indication they are willing to fix the problem and don't care about the facts.

Trump is taking the right approach here. He's being seen as the guy that can be reasoned with, the Democrats are being seeing as obstructionists.
 
Mar 3, 2010
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No. He tried that and it proved ineffective. This is going to get done one way or another. And it's looking like he will declare it an emergency. And it will bolster his chances in 2020.
Nope. The Democrats have shown no indication they are willing to fix the problem and don't care about the facts.

Trump is taking the right approach here. He's being seen as the guy that can be reasoned with, the Democrats are being seeing as obstructionists.
So it's smart to balance the entire weight of the government against 5.7b for a border wall?

And if the Democrats capitulate, what is to stop Donald Trump from doing this again next year and demanding even more, since his hostage negotiations worked once?
 
Jun 26, 2018
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So it's smart to balance the entire weight of the government against 5.7b for a border wall?
Yes. Why are the Democrats fighting $5b for a 722-mile mix of wall and fencing, mostly updating what’s been in place for decades, while relying on drones and other methods to secure the rest? Do you really think it's worth shutting down the government over 722 miles of wall and fence? What is it you oppose here?
 
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Aug 30, 2018
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So it's smart to balance the entire weight of the government against 5.7b for a border wall?

And if the Democrats capitulate, what is to stop Donald Trump from doing this again next year and demanding even more, since his hostage negotiations worked once?
Yes, it is smart. Enough is enough. Other politicians talk big when it comes to the border and immigration reform, but when push comes to shove they fold like a cheap suit. We have to stop the human trafficking, violence, rape, and sexual assault. The question is, why is this only being taken care of now by an outsider like President Trump?
 
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Yes. Why are the Democrats fighting $5b for a 722-mile mix of wall and fencing, mostly updating what’s been in place for decades, while relying on drones and other methods to secure the rest? Do you really think it's worth shutting down the government over 722 miles of wall and fence? What is it you oppose here?
Okay, but the second question: what's to stop Trump from using this tactic again when spending authorization lapses next time? He would have verification that it works even though Dems would get nothing in return - a total win for him.
 
Jun 26, 2018
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Okay, but the second question: what's to stop Trump from using this tactic again when spending authorization lapses next time?
There are a multitude of factors that would be involved. And in the end, it's a hypothetical. Why not address my question. What do you oppose about $5b for a 722-mile mix of wall and fencing, mostly updating what’s been in place for decades, while relying on drones and other methods to secure the rest? Do you really think it's worth shutting down the government over 722 miles of wall and fence?
 
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I see this as the bigger problem if he gets his way. Basically gives the President all the power. What's the point of the other branches if they are going to be overridden? Nobody is arguing against border security, it's just the way it's being handled. As it was stated earlier, the government is being held hostage.
 
Likes: azz0r
Mar 3, 2010
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There are a multitude of factors that would be involved. And in the end, it's a hypothetical. Why not address my question. What do you oppose about $5b for a 722-mile mix of wall and fencing, mostly updating what’s been in place for decades, while relying on drones and other methods to secure the rest? Do you really think it's worth shutting down the government over 722 miles of wall and fence?
Only the President and his supporters think it's worth that. You even just said it yourself.

You're looking at this situation backwards.
 
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Jun 26, 2018
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Only the President and his supporters think it's worth that. You even just said it yourself.
So you don't support border security. Just admit it. You are ok with the status quo. Because if you're going to fight $5b for 722 feet of wall and fence, you are being intentionally obtuse and doing nothing but fighting what the bad orange man wants. Trump will win this fight.
 
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So you don't support border security. Just admit it. You are ok with the status quo. Because if you're going to fight $5b for 722 feet of wall and fence, you are being intentionally obtuse and doing nothing but fighting what the bad orange man wants. Trump will win this fight.
That's not how negotiation works. If Dems capitulated to Trump, it would be because they wanted to fund the government and maintain the status quo that Americans depend on, not because they think it's good policy. And we'd be right back here next year with an even bigger ask.

That's hostile negotiation and forcing people's hands, and the majority of Americans see it as such. The Dems have no incentive to negotiate under such terms, and your entire stance boils down to "the President should be able to do what he wants."
 
Jun 26, 2018
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The Dems have no incentive to negotiate under such terms, and your entire stance boils down to "the President should be able to do what he wants."
Sure they do. They will soon face the pressure for not supporting $5b to enforce existing fence and put a wall along 722 miles of the open border. It's not a lot of money and it's clearly needed. Democrats have put themselves in a corner. Either they support securing the border, or they don't. You can't even explain what it is you oppose about Trump's $5b plan.
 
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There’s zero difference in the videos of Trump supporters being tricked. Do you need me to post every vid of someone doing this to people? Or you just wanna sit in your computer chair pointing at the screen, cackling “LIBTARDS BAD!”

It happens to people on every side. It’s the same in each video.

I’m tired of this.

I appreciate the people who are willing to express their beliefs while at least giving every side a fair chance. I’m tired of the “just here to mock whoever I disagree with” nonsense. Grow up

My ignore list filling up so fast.

LMFAO at “nah my side got tricked less than your side”
Holy overreaction. I think maybe you are the one who needs to do some growing up.
 
Likes: Shaqazooloo
Mar 3, 2010
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Sure they do. They will soon face the pressure for not supporting $5b to enforce existing fence and put a wall along 722 miles of the open border. It's not a lot of money and it's clearly needed. Democrats have put themselves in a corner. Either they support securing the border, or they don't. You can't even explain what it is you oppose about Trump's $5b plan.
I did, several times. The fact that Trump is balancing this demand against the government is the fundamental issue.
 
Likes: azz0r
Dec 1, 2017
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Sure they do. They will soon face the pressure for not supporting $5b to enforce existing fence and put a wall along 722 miles of the open border. It's not a lot of money and it's clearly needed. Democrats have put themselves in a corner. Either they support securing the border, or they don't. You can't even explain what it is you oppose about Trump's $5b plan.
We don't really know what Trump's plan is, other than Big Beautiful Wall. Where, how long? What is it? He has 2 years to specify and clarify this.
He has everyone thinking he wants to stretch the wall across the entire south. No one wants that. But not once has he grown up enough to detail his plan.

I think they (dems) should at least negotiate the older plan to reinforce parts of the wall that are in strategic locations and already work. Get together and decide what areas could have more wall, and continue to discuss other security in areas where walls would be ineffective. There problem is the approach, and the (due) hatred for Trump should not get in the way of a mature negotiation.

If they were smart, they would say OK here's 3.5b, you can have the beginnings of your wall where they already exist, so he feels like he won. Let him know that you can continue to negotiate after the govt opens.

By saying NO WALL, they are also holding the govt closed, imo.
And reinforcing the GOP talking point on open borders, which won't help them.
They are trying to appeal to emotion and moral superiority... get over yourselves.

They are all acting like schoolchildren, frankly it's pathetic.
 
Jun 26, 2018
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We don't really know what Trump's plan is, other than Big Beautiful Wall.
This is what happens when you listen to the mainstream media and liberal rhetoric. We know EXACTLY what his plan is. The most current proposal is for $5.7b. And that money is going to be used to construct wall and reinforce fence for 722 miles of the border. The rest of the money will be spent on infrastructure, agents and tools such as drones. Trump is the only person who has reasoned his position on this.

https://pix11.com/2019/01/10/watch-...r-to-make-case-for-5-billion-in-wall-funding/
 
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This is what happens when you listen to the mainstream media and liberal rhetoric. We know EXACTLY what his plan is. The most current proposal is for $5.7b. And that money is going to be used to construct wall and reinforce fence for 722 miles of the border. The rest of the money will be spent on infrastructure, agents and tools such as drones. Trump is the only person who has reasoned his position on this.

https://pix11.com/2019/01/10/watch-live-trump-visits-border-to-make-case-for-5-billion-in-wall-funding/
https://pix11.com/2019/01/10/watch-live-trump-visits-border-to-make-case-for-5-billion-in-wall-funding/[/QUOTE]He has not been making this clear and he did not specify that Tuesday night. He certainly did not specify that before.

No I did not scour the internet or news, I am going by the message he puts out. The last I heard, he did not even know what materials the wall was... oh, it was whatever you want to call it.

Where are the 700 miles going to be?

And don't make presumptions about me, or there will be no discussion.

The internet messed up while posting, so sorry about the formatting
 
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Jun 26, 2018
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"Where are the 700 miles going to be?"

Where there are currently open areas of the border. He asked Congress for the $5.7b on Wednesday. It's been made pretty clear. But some people just hear what they want to. And argue about a 2,000 mile, $20b wall.
 

Arkage

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I was never really comfortable with this particular argument. Especially when I hear other progressives/liberals/leftists/whatever argue this case, because it acquiesces to the status quo of (ironically) welfare subsidized capitalists exploiting a vulnerable labor class, and acts like that's a desirable outcome.
It's a lesser of two evils, not a desirable outcome.
 
Likes: JareBear
May 22, 2018
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Then start negotiating. Trump has backed down on his proposal to a modest $5.7b and the wall scaled down to 250 miles. What have the Democrats given?
They have given him a budget. He doesn't get to demand anything. He is actively keeping the government shut down in order to try and save face. He is taking money and food off the table for hundreds of thousands of federal workers for his own ego.


And people know it. They know there are bills waiting to be signed. They know who the shutdown is on. The only question is how long the GOP let's this farce continue. All they have to do is agree on a bill that is veto proof and president Tantrum can't do anything about it.
 
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They have given him a budget. He doesn't get to demand anything.
He certainly does. He signs the bills. And he will get to declare an emergency and fix this mess. The people know it is the Democrats balking at a measly $5.7b for 250 miles of wall and fence. The rest of the money is going to be used to beef up infrastructure. People are watching as they balk on border security. Trump will win this fight.

"Elections have consequences." - B. Obama
 
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They have given him a budget. He doesn't get to demand anything. He is actively keeping the government shut down in order to try and save face. He is taking money and food off the table for hundreds of thousands of federal workers for his own ego.


And people know it. They know there are bills waiting to be signed. They know who the shutdown is on. The o ly question is how long the GOP let's this farce continue. All they have to do is agree on a bill that is veto proof and president Tantrum can't do anything about it.
This is exactly the reason why major issues never get done. The "do nothings" kick the can down the road because they don't want to take any risks that could impact their future electability and/or fundraising. President Trump doesn't need to care about those things so he can put serious pressure on the "do nothings" like he's doing.

Sadly, this is what it takes. Congress has an 18% approval rating. 18. President Trump has no choice but to drag these "do nothings" because clearly they're incapable of doing it on their own.
 
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May 22, 2018
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He certainly does. He signs the bills. And he will get to declare an emergency and fix this mess. The people know it is the Democrats balking at a measly $5.7b for 250 miles of wall and fence. The rest of the money is going to be used to beef up infrastructure. People are watching as they balk on border security. Trump will win this fight.
He can declare whatever he wants. It doesn't grant him a blank check like you seem to think it does.


As for him "winning"? Hundreds of thousands of families are gonna be going without money and food as a result of his tantrum. There is no "winning" that.
 
Jun 26, 2018
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He can declare whatever he wants. It doesn't grant him a blank check like you seem to think it does.
When did I ever say he would get a blank check? He'll get his $5.7b that is easily afforded by this country. And it will stop illegal crossings and save lives.

As for him "winning"? Hundreds of thousands of families are gonna be going without money and food as a result of his tantrum. There is no "winning" that
Then fund border security. Stop playing orange man bad. This isn't a 2,000 mile, $20b wall. It's $5.7b to fix existing fence and put up structured wall on 250 miles of open border.
 
May 22, 2018
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When did I ever say he would get a blank check? He'll get his $5.7b that is easily afforded by this country. And it will stop illegal crossings and save lives.



Then fund border security. Stop playing orange man bad. This isn't a 2,000 mile, $20b wall. It's $5.7b to fix existing fence and put up structured wall on 250 miles of open border.
It's not gonna happen. He will get nothing and like it. The Dems have no reason to bend to his ridiculous demands.


That or he will get nothing, throw a hissy fit, declare an emergency, try to build it, get shutdown via the courts, and still get nothing, but in this scenario it's far more embarrassing.
 
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When did I ever say he would get a blank check? He'll get his $5.7b that is easily afforded by this country. And it will stop illegal crossings and save lives.



Then fund border security. Stop playing orange man bad. This isn't a 2,000 mile, $20b wall. It's $5.7b to fix existing fence and put up structured wall on 250 miles of open border.
This is what really gets me. It's obviously not about the money. It's a rounding error to the US Government.

Then what is it about?

Preventing sexual assault? Nope, suddenly Nancy and Chuck seem to think 80% of women getting sexually assaulted is a manufactured crisis. But #metoo which impacted far fewer individuals was used very opportunistically. I guess they only care about white women, not brown women getting sexually assaulted.

Preventing human trafficking? Nope, suddenly Nancy and Chuck seem to think that's just fine as long as they are coming from the southern border.

Preventing violence? I guess brown people killing or getting killed is A-OK for now.

It's purely a political maneuver for 2020. The only reason they care is they know if President Trump gets the wall done he'll win in a landslide. Sexual assault, human trafficking, violence be damned.