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Protests escalate in Hong Kong, violent clashes with police (Update: HKG airport grounded; mainland military rolling in)

*Nightwing

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Sep 24, 2014
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Nope
You can have any agenda, just be honest about it. I want these protestors to see reality for their own good. They can't win against China, so either they desist or die. I'm against these protests because they are bad for the population of hong kong....... This is disingenuous, even macabre. You know they fight a futile fight. YOU KNOW they will be crushed, killed then destroyed 10x over. And you 'wish them the best'?.....You're simply misinformed then, I doubt you're that malicious. I wish them safe and sound by urging them to go back home and stop playing with fire.
Ummmm, is it just me or is the hypocrisy a little too much? So you argue it is a fight they cannot win and should just roll over and accept reality, whilst you are not accepting the reality of GAF being a place of freedom and anti-oppression be it socialist oppression, communist oppression, or corporate greed and every other type of oppression and continue to beat your dead horse while getting dog-piled on by individuals with less extremist views and don't back out of this argument you cannot win here? Take your own advice and live by example and accept the inevitable consensus that your position is biased and ludicrous, then people might start to take you seriously.
 
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Cybrwzrd

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Sep 29, 2014
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Am I the only one here that recognizes China for what it actually is both in form and function (a hyper industrialized ethnocentric Fascist regime) and the dangers of spitting in its face when you know nobody is coming to save you when it decides to stomp you out of existence? You guys are egging on these protestors not out of any realistic sense of duty to muh export democracy, but out of spite and feels. Maybe some of you are doing it due to fantastical notions of little guy is always right romanticism. Either way you seem to want them to be slaughtered like little piggies...just on the off chance it might make china look...bad...in the media? lol

Malicious. Blood thirsty even. Definitely irresponsible. This isn't your everyday middle eastern failed quasi-state. It's china. It's more efficient than any western regime. Yes they will get stomped, no it won't make China look like anything it isn't already. And you will continue consuming its goods.

And yeah I've seen those trucks before in Urumqi. Hundreds of trucks filled with thousands of PaP come in accompanied by herding armored vehicles, then the trucks leave filled with thousands of protesters. Rinse and repeat until every person that's on the street in hong kong still protesting is reduced to 0.
Are you a Uighur? Or have you just been to Urumqi?
 
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MrTickles

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Ummmm, is it just me or is the hypocrisy a little too much? So you argue it is a fight they cannot win and should just roll over and accept reality, whilst you are not accepting the reality of GAF being a place of freedom and anti-oppression be it socialist oppression, communist oppression, or corporate greed and every other type of oppression and continue to beat your dead horse while getting dog-piled on by individuals with less extremist views and don't back out of this argument you cannot win here? Take your own advice and live by example and accept the inevitable consensus that your position is biased and ludicrous, then people might start to take you seriously.
Are you conflating an online forum discussion with protests in hong kong?

kek. Here I will be called a shill and be subject to all sorts of messenger attacks. Airport barricading kids in hong kong will be subject to 20-30 years of reform by hard labour. Slight difference.

It is politically correct to swallow the propaganda and dogpile on china. As I said it is the trumpists 'muh russiah'. I don't do politically correct.

And I've been to urumqi. I've been to every nook and cranny in about 30 countries.
 
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I think China can just veto most stuff, as one of the five permanent members of the security council. But I'm absolutely not a UN expert.

P.S. The blue lights you see in some of the videos are supposedly laser pointers the protesters use to obscure facial recognition. Pretty insane.


Between the lasers and American flags I consider them Real American Heroes.
 

*Nightwing

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Sep 24, 2014
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Nope
Are you conflating an online forum discussion with protests in hong kong?

kek. Here I will be called a shill and be subject to all sorts of messenger attacks. Airport barricading kids in hong kong will be subject to 20-30 years of reform by hard labour. Slight difference.

It is politically correct to swallow the propaganda and dogpile on china. As I said it is the trumpists 'muh russiah'. I don't do politically correct.

And I've been to urumqi. I've been to every nook and cranny in about 30 countries.
Nope, I'm not conflating anything. Just pointing out a glaring hypocrisy in your argument style that you might be missing seeing the forest from the trees. Not arguing your substantive opinion which is your right to have and I respect, although cannot join in arguing about it with you as we seem to disagree in the fundamental ideal of if inalienable personal freedoms are worth fighting an insurmountable opposing force over, so it's always going to revert back to that basic principle. And if neither of us can budge on that principal then any argument is going to be a waste of both of our times. Arguing with random people on the net isn't an important fight, but fighting for freedom will always be worth it.
 

Shad0w59

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May 18, 2018
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Tribalism is taking over now. It's very much an 'us vs them' situation with no dialogue.



This guy was beaten by the crowd because he said "I support Hong Kong police, you can start beating me now." in the middle of the crowd. He was also wearing a provocative T-Shirt supporting the police. Not the brightest thing to do when you are standing in the middle of thousands of people on the other side.

Turns out he is a reporter for Global Times which is a China state funded outlet. He was tied up then doxxed (his identification and notes were taken from him and photographed). Medics eventually got to him later.







Bloomberg - Global Times Says Man Seized in Hong Kong Airport is Reporter:

Reuters -




Edit: I'm not sure if the victim in the video below is the same reporter, or was another person who was suspected to be an undercover policeman from China. There seems to be a lot of confusion over the two people. Even people saying the person was posing as a reporter but actually a policeman etc. The guy on the floor looks like him to me.

 
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DragoonKain

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China is such a cool and interesting country I've always wanted to visit. It's like this blend of amazingly huge metropolitan areas with big rural areas, and just the range of wealth on such massive extremes. Something about the country is fascinating to me, I guess it's all the people and several cities with tens of millions of people.
 

Shad0w59

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May 18, 2018
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Another video I came across showing the protesters tactics at the airport. This might have been the guy who was suspected as being undercover police from Mainland China. Quite creative use of flashlights to subdue him.

 

DragoonKain

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Btw, the listed population by city in China seems to vary. I remember looking at the wikipedia page a few months ago and it how Guangzhou as the biggest at like 30+ million and now the wiki page changed to Shanghai.



Maybe they are tallying it by different standards?
 
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MrTickles

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if inalienable personal freedoms are worth fighting an insurmountable opposing force over
For starters that in itself is a loaded argument you make in mere passing. Inalienable according to which authority? Which government? The 'rights' they 'have' were never even granted to them by the former British administration and they were never granted in perpetuity. They came temporarily, and as a direct result of the hand over. No hand over of sovereignty to China, no autonomy in the first place. Thus it is China's to give and take away.

And that footage of them beating up randoms at the airport is not going over well in the mainland.
 
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oagboghi2

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For starters that in itself is a loaded argument you make in mere passing. Inalienable according to which authority? Which government? The 'rights' they 'have' were never even granted to them by the former British administration and they were never granted in perpetuity. They came temporarily, and as a direct result of the hand over. No hand over of sovereignty to China, no autonomy in the first place. Thus it is China's to give and take away.

And that footage of them beating up randoms at the airport is not going over well in the mainland.
But I’m sure the video of the police beating people up will, right?
 
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sahlberg

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But I’m sure the video of the police beating people up will, right?
IF it is shown on mainland media there is a fair chance people will applaud the police.
The people I know from the mainland deeply distrust and dislike the HKers for being arrogant and think they are special.

A lot of/most mainlanders may well applaud any footage of the police showing strength and beating up these troublemakers.
The mindset of mainlanders is very different from yours and mine. They are very very nationalistic and pro their state and
approve of, almost celebrate, hard handed handling of troublemakers.

(You know that the concentration camps they run where they have about a milion of minority muslems imprisoned have wide support from the populace?)


There is a very strong social stigma against going against the state or causing trouble. It is now basically in the DNA of their culture and minds. Anyone that tries to disrupt societal harmony and cause trouble will be punished and average mainlanders will approve or even celebrate with joy that the troublemaker got what was coming to them.
 
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sahlberg

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So what are the demands of the protestors?
They were talking about that they want democracy, but

I think they are at the stage now where they are very dangerously close to openly flaunting the S-word.
When that happens all bets are off and a lot of people will go missing.

(* Separatist)
 
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crowbrow

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So what are the demands of the protestors?
  • a full withdrawal of a proposed bill that would allow Hong Kong people to be extradited to mainland China
  • a retraction of any characterization of the movement as a “riot”
  • a retraction of charges against anti-extradition protesters
  • an independent committee to investigate the Hong Kong police’s use of force
  • universal suffrage in elections for the city’s chief executive officer and legislature by 2020

So far the extradition bill has been suspended but not withdrawn.
 
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sahlberg

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You are confused since you are young and from America?

Older people from Eastern Europe still remember when this was fact of life.
Shit talk your government and you and your whole family would disappear
3am Wednesday morning., never to be heard of again.
That was reality for family of mine.

That is how far-left authoritarian societies operate. Every time.
 

sahlberg

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You are confused since you are young and from America?

Older people from Eastern Europe still remember when this was fact of life.
Shit talk your government and you and your whole family would disappear
3am Wednesday morning., never to be heard of again.
That was reality for family of mine.

That is how far-left authoritarian societies operate. Every time.
Edit: east germany under Honecker

The empty apartment would be filled with a new family of political observers for a few quarters.
Just to make sure no-one would talk shit or ask about the person that disappeared.
In case some more families needed to be disappeared.


Two days after someone and their whole family would be gone forever. If you asked next door neighbor about what happened to "bob and his family"?
They would all slam the door and say there had never been anyone called bob living there, and the guy next door had lived there for ages. (or else he would disappear too)
 
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iamblades

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For starters that in itself is a loaded argument you make in mere passing. Inalienable according to which authority? Which government? The 'rights' they 'have' were never even granted to them by the former British administration and they were never granted in perpetuity. They came temporarily, and as a direct result of the hand over. No hand over of sovereignty to China, no autonomy in the first place. Thus it is China's to give and take away.

And that footage of them beating up randoms at the airport is not going over well in the mainland.
Inalienable means just that, they are intrinsic to being a human, they are not given by government and cannot be taken away by government. I'd go one step further and say that they can not even be willingly transferred or sold to a third party.

Self ownership is the most obvious place to start in natural rights theory, as it is physically impossible to transfer ownership of your self.

Most of the rest of the inalienable rights(life, self defense, self determination, property, etc) follow pretty logically once you recognize this fact.
 

sahlberg

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Inalienable means just that, they are intrinsic to being a human, they are not given by government and cannot be taken away by government. I'd go one step further and say that they can not even be willingly transferred or sold to a third party.

Self ownership is the most obvious place to start in natural rights theory, as it is physically impossible to transfer ownership of your self.

Most of the rest of the inalienable rights(life, self defense, self determination, property, etc) follow pretty logically once you recognize this fact.
Eh um.
"Inalienable" is most definitely stemmed from your value system and granted from your form of government,
Anything else is just delusion (you think all the world shares the same moral valuesystems as you?).

The rights that are seemed as "inalienable" differs greatly from culture to culture.
Please do not be surprised when "inalieable rights" in europe will make weapon ownership illegal.
Or what "inalienable rights" in far east or africa means ownership of personal mines should be ok.


Travel more. The world is big. There is a lot of different value systems and cultures out there.
Some of them might be offensive to you! but they still exist.


Your fart of "inalienable rights" means just bullshit outside of your own culture/value system. When you are in a chineese prison you can ask for human rights tribunal all day long and it wont change a thing.


Your moral/ethics system does not apply anymore. You play by different rules now.

There is nothing intrinsic except what your local culture grants you.
 
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Doczu

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Yeah, HK is in a lose-lose situation here.
If they double down on the protests in hope they will achieve some form of (in)dependence - mainland commies will go full force and beat the living shit of anyone in their way.
If they back off, they will lose their (in)dependence and mainland commies will dissapear those that are to dangerous or independent for their operations.

This shit was already lost in '97 when the brits moved out. Took them 20 years to easily infiltrate and prepare the society for take over. Hoped this would go without any violence or public backlash but now they got a small "situation" on their hands.

Like people above mentioned: google any potential uprising in the old Warsaw Pact countries.

1. People get mad at situation X
2. Some form of peaceful protests start.
3. National police or military don't intervene yet, just flex a bit
4. Politicians talk about possible changes.
5. Soviet_Anthem.mp3
6. Regular fighting on streets begin.

Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia are the biggest examples, but you can dig many others in the former soviet republics, not only the "foreign" puppet states

EDIT: my take is that the commies are waiting to know who are the biggest protesting groups to kno who to cull after the dust settles. If they go in too fastthey risk that the protesters will go dark and wait for another shot.
 
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*Nightwing

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Sep 24, 2014
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Nope
For starters that in itself is a loaded argument you make in mere passing. Inalienable according to which authority? Which government? The 'rights' they 'have' were never even granted to them by the former British administration and they were never granted in perpetuity. They came temporarily, and as a direct result of the hand over. No hand over of sovereignty to China, no autonomy in the first place. Thus it is China's to give and take away.

And that footage of them beating up randoms at the airport is not going over well in the mainland.
On inalienable human rights it's not a passing statement, I meant it as a direct to the point statement, apologies if it didn't come off that way. But this is exactly my point, I'm not willing to run around in circles arguing in vain over a concept established by intellectual consensus in the late 1600's to 1700's. Becouse the next step is arguing the validity of past intellectual achievements which then is a slippery slope with no end to invalidate all intellectual progress since the beginning of recorded history unless you have direct and conclusive knowledge of it if I go down this rabbit hole of an argument with you, so apologies again but rather than wasting my time and yours, I leave it at this is the central point we disagree on and I will agree to dissagree on it rather than disrespecting your opinion since I find it ridiculous rehashing philosophical arguments from 3 centuries ago.
 
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dionysus

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Eh um.
"Inalienable" is most definitely stemmed from your value system and granted from your form of government,
Anything else is just delusion (you think all the world shares the same moral valuesystems as you?).

The rights that are seemed as "inalienable" differs greatly from culture to culture.
Please do not be surprised when "inalieable rights" in europe will make weapon ownership illegal.
Or what "inalienable rights" in far east or africa means ownership of personal mines should be ok.


Travel more. The world is big. There is a lot of different value systems and cultures out there.
Some of them might be offensive to you! but they still exist.


Your fart of "inalienable rights" means just bullshit outside of your own culture/value system. When you are in a chineese prison you can ask for human rights tribunal all day long and it wont change a thing.


Your moral/ethics system does not apply anymore. You play by different rules now.

There is nothing intrinsic except what your local culture grants you.
Eh, you have a point but there is a counterpoint.

Inalienable rights are things human beings possess without any outside interference. No one grants it to you, and for it to be removed from you an outside force must suppress your inherent ability. In the Declaration of Independence, they limited those to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness. There are other formulations. The ability to be alive, the ability to sustain oneself (own the fruit of your labor), and the ability to make choices, to boil it down into today's vernacular. Now we don't live alone, so rights infringe on others rights. My right to own the fruit of my labor doesn't include stealing your car. That is where your point comes in. Different cultures do interpret how to deal with the cases where just being human interacts with other people being human.

The worst despotic regimes fundamentally assault inalienable rights in iniquitous ways. Feudalism, for example, said a person couldn't relocate without permission, had to perform jobs determined by others, and did not allow the ownership of one's labor. The lord owned all the fruit of the serf's labor, and any he let the serf keep was out of his largess.
 
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sahlberg

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Oct 27, 2017
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Well it's tame compared to the beatings we see in western protests. It's not really a cause for contrarianism yet as that would be hypocrisy.
At first I thought I would say you were wrong, but then I realized that in both cases it is :

hard-line communists beating up people that are not hard-line-communists.

So the comparasion works. Works in HK, works in Portland.
 

Dontero

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Apr 19, 2018
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I don't see those protest doing anything.
The game was set when British leaved and handed over officially Hong Kong to China.
This is what you get when you don't have army.

The only blame party here is Hong Kong administrators that poured hope buckets on those people as if they didn't know what will happen.
 

Doczu

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China is literally like Nazi Germany at this point. Total surveillance state, ACTUAL concentration camps, organ harvesting and global expansionism. Individual rights totally stomped in the name of Chinese supremacy.
It almost looks like the people who claimed that National Socialism was a leftist ideology at heart were right.
Makes you think 🤔
 

Dontero

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Apr 19, 2018
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What joins Mussolini and Hitler ? They both joined communist party.

The difference between NS and C is that communist believed that you need to collectivize everything while NS believed that companies should still be private but with government setting goals. Other than that they are exactly the same thinking government should handle everything else.

And yeah China is mirror of NS. State driven goals for private companies while at the same time assuring no divergence in population stamping out non main chinese.
 
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Apr 18, 2014
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Well it's tame compared to the beatings we see in western protests. It's not really a cause for contrarianism yet as that would be hypocrisy.
You mean like here in Portland where they let the protesters direct traffic?

Eh um.
"Inalienable" is most definitely stemmed from your value system and granted from your form of government,
Anything else is just delusion (you think all the world shares the same moral valuesystems as you?).

The rights that are seemed as "inalienable" differs greatly from culture to culture.
Please do not be surprised when "inalieable rights" in europe will make weapon ownership illegal.
Or what "inalienable rights" in far east or africa means ownership of personal mines should be ok.


Travel more. The world is big. There is a lot of different value systems and cultures out there.
Some of them might be offensive to you! but they still exist.


Your fart of "inalienable rights" means just bullshit outside of your own culture/value system. When you are in a chineese prison you can ask for human rights tribunal all day long and it wont change a thing.


Your moral/ethics system does not apply anymore. You play by different rules now.

There is nothing intrinsic except what your local culture grants you.
I think there seems to be a philosophical difference you are missing here. As a human being born on this planet we each have the right to live as we choose. Regardless of governmental oversight there will always be consequences for our actions that we need to take into account when making decisions.

Obviously a giant monolithic government can stomp on those rights very easily. Heck, 2-3 people can generally stomp on those rights if they so choose. That doesn't make it any less of a right.

I have the right to defend myself to the death granted by the simple fact that I am alive. I can choose when to exert that right anytime I want and it can certainly lead to my demise if I am not careful. No government grants me that right. It is mine by birth.
 
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Trojita

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Feb 9, 2009
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I want these protestors to see reality for their own good. They can't win against China, so either they desist or die. I'm against these protests because they are bad for the population of hong kong. They will even accelerate the demise of the two state system. They could have enjoyed autonomy for another 30 years. It could end next year.
Fast forward to now

I'm flying into Hong Kong in December. These kids better be under control or in gulags by then. I don't want to be inconvenienced.
"I hope they are in forced labor camps so that I don't get inconvenienced". I'm sure you really care about the people of Hong Kong.
 

cryptoadam

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Feb 21, 2018
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Something I find interesting that I wanted to point out. The leftists here in America are on the side of the protesters and continually bash China. Those same leftists bash Trump for the trade war....

God damn what a cute doggo

Also Orange Man Bad, thats all there is too it. If Trump cured cancer the left would protest for cancer and start calling cancer great and wonderful.
 
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