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Protests escalate in Hong Kong, violent clashes with police (Update: HKG airport grounded; mainland military rolling in)

Shad0w59

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Carrie Lam's announcement last week has been largely ignored by the "protesters".

They continue to target and destroy the transport system at the end of this week.


 
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Dane

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After all the shit they did, not suprising, and Lam didn't accept all of their requests, at this point they completely lost the faith on the system.
 

Shad0w59

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Hong Kong is on fire:




Off duty policeman is harrassed at his wedding:



Confrontation with a driver:

 
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Shad0w59

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"Protesters" are using tactics of handing out press vests in order to hide in crowds:


Fake press cards are among the items seized by police:



This kid obviously did not have any press training, trying to take a picture with the cap on.

 

Shad0w59

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According to a NYT reporter, rioters have moved to Hong Kong's downtown Central district this Sunday and have begun destroying the station there. They are also throwing bags of trash and hosing them down with water to make them harder to clean up.


Edit: this station is now on fire:


 
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cryptoadam

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Welp thats the end of that. The left just got their excuse to bury the HK protestors and side with the facist CCP. Pepe the frog wasn't enough but this will firmly push the protestors in WHYTE SUPREMACIST sexist, transphopic, racist, antisemetic, 2 scoop ice cream, orange skin camp.

What a gift for the left now they can support the totalitarian government without that tinge of guilt since its all part of the fight against Orange Man now.
 

crowbrow

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These people are 10 times more violent than Antifa. Whoever claims Antifa should be labeled a terrorist organization should also be up for these protestors labeled as terrorists. Ironically they are asking Trump for help instead.
 

eot

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These people are 10 times more violent than Antifa. Whoever claims Antifa should be labeled a terrorist organization should also be up for these protestors labeled as terrorists. Ironically they are asking Trump for help instead.
Their country is being forcefully integrated into a dictatorship and they stood up against laws that would have them deported there. I have zero sympathy for Antifa, but it's not quite the same, and I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
 

crowbrow

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Their country is being forcefully integrated into a dictatorship and they stood up against laws that would have them deported there. I have zero sympathy for Antifa, but it's not quite the same, and I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
It's all relative. The protestors in Hong Kong think their fight is righteous while many don't and the same with Antifa. They're both protesting their governments. Still their tactics are pretty similar but the Hong Kong protestors seem to be more violent than Antifa.
 
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crowbrow

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lol and you don't even get paid for spreading this kind of propaganda.
For the record, I'm in favor or protests as a general principle. I think any society should tolerate protesters as long as they don't go out of their way to harm and kill others. So I'm in favor of hong kong people protesting as well as antifa protesting. Where I see double standards is people supporting one and demonizing the other from each side because of their behavior when both behave so similar. Like I mentioned in this thread before, the perception of protesters from outside a country and inside are fairly different most of the time (I've seen that many times in my own country) and people that from the outside support protests in other countries are usually against protesters in their own country which is kind of ironic but speaks to how people love to see unrest and revolution from a vicarious position but not in their own backyard.

I also linked to this and the rhetoric and parties taking positions in favor and against the protesters in Hong Kong could pretty much be exchanged by antifa and their supporters and detractors inside the US and the parties taking sides will change little: government and conservatives against protesters while social organizations and celebrities in favor of protesters.

 
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DunDunDunpachi

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For the record, I'm in favor or protests as a general principle. I think any society should tolerate protesters as long as they don't go out of their way to harm and kill others. So I'm in favor of hong kong people protesting as well as antifa protesting. Where I see double standards is people supporting one and demonizing the other from each side because of their behavior when both behave so similar.
So you're simplifying the two situations down to very basic impressions and then drawing conclusions based on your simplifications, and then criticizing those who don't come to the same conclusions as you. Got it. These sort of meta-conversations about the supposed hypocrisy of a group are usually fruitless.

Like I mentioned in this thread before, the perception of protesters from outside a country and inside are fairly different most of the time (I've seen that many times in my own country) and people that from the outside support protests in other countries are usually against protesters in their own country which is kind of ironic but speaks to how people love to see unrest and revolution from a vicarious position but not in their own backyard.
You're ascribing motives that you couldn't possibly know and then basing your argument on those assumptions.

I also linked to this and the rhetoric and parties taking positions in favor and against the protesters in Hong Kong could pretty much be exchanged by antifa and their supporters and detractors inside the US and the parties taking sides will change little: government and conservatives against protesters while social organizations and celebrities in favor of protesters.

If you think the rhetoric of the protestors themselves -- and the rhetoric of the for/against groups -- are pretty much the same between Antifa and HK, then you're not paying attention (or a propagandist), falling into the very same criticism that people in other countries have a different perception than reality.

Arguing about the perceptions of outside observers is a dead-end conversation when you're making so many other unsubstantiated claims. How are the Hong Kong protestors "10 times more violent", and how is that not all "relative" (as you say in the very next post) considering the differences of location, size of protest, and most importantly political aims? We're comparing a string of protests from hundreds of thousands (if not millions) in a ~400 square mile city to a string of protests from a few hundred (maybe a few thousands) that appear in a few pockets across a 3.7 million square mile country.
 

crowbrow

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So you're simplifying the two situations down to very basic impressions and then drawing conclusions based on your simplifications,
No, it's actually a general observation that happens way too often. Like I said, I've seen the same behavior many times in my country and elsewhere. I'm just noticing the pattern.

are pretty much the same between Antifa and HK
Well not the same but really similar, at least in the article that I linked. You could substitute the hong kong protesters for antifa in that article and it will work pretty accurate to how the sides align in the US too.

We're comparing a string of protests from hundreds of thousands (if not millions)
Lol I showed earlier in this thread how those number are probably grossly exaggerated. There's no credible source that supports a number of millions.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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No, it's actually a general observation that happens way too often. Like I said, I've seen the same behavior many times in my country and elsewhere. I'm just noticing the pattern.


Well not the same but really similar, at least in the article that I linked. You could substitute the hong kong protesters for antifa in that article and it will work pretty accurate to how the sides align in the US too.


Lol I showed earlier in this thread how those number are probably grossly exaggerated. There's no credible source that supports a number of millions.
The millions are a disputed number, I'll grant you that, but it does not undermine my point: these protests are contained within one city. Even if you compare HK to Antifa Central (a.k.a Portland, OR) there aren't a whole lot of similarities other than mob violence.

Besides, you are guilty of your own observation:

the perception of protesters from outside a country and inside are fairly different most of the time (I've seen that many times in my own country) and people that from the outside support protests in other countries are usually against protesters in their own country which is kind of ironic but speaks to how people love to see unrest and revolution from a vicarious position but not in their own backyard.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you...

...living and/or a native of Latin America? Therefore, not a native of either country being discussed.
...in favor of China keeping the USA "in balance" on the world scene? Therefore, predisposed toward the government cracking down on HK.
...against the West's interventions abroad? Therefore, predisposed against Hong Kong and their desire for Western-style freedoms.

I'd say you are cheering from "a vicarious position" yourself. Heck, you're not even making an argument about the protests themselves but rather are stirring up (fruitless) disagreement about how those who cheer the HK protestors yet deride Antifa are contradicting themselves.
 
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crowbrow

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The millions are a disputed number, I'll grant you that, but it does not undermine my point: these protests are contained within one city. Even if you compare HK to Antifa Central (a.k.a Portland, OR) there aren't a whole lot of similarities other than mob violence.
Well I would have to see the percentages of protesters vs whole population. But still my initial point was precisely about the behavior you mention as "mob violence". Because Trump and others are calling to designate Antifa as a terrorist organization precisely because of their behavior and then it would logically follow that groups that behave similarly should also be considered terrorist groups. Right now, because of the images and videos we have seen, it seems the Hong Kong protesters behave more violent than Antifa.

...living and/or a native of Latin America? Therefore, not a native of either country being discussed.
Yeah but I'm not sure why this is relevant. Like I said, I've have seen the same pattern with supporting and condemning protesters everywhere, including my home country, my resident country that is now Germany and I see it also in instances like this. It is practically almost the same predictable for and against groups within and outside the country.

...in favor of China keeping the USA "in balance" on the world scene? Therefore, predisposed toward the government cracking down on HK.
I am in favor of a more diverse world power stage but that doesn't mean I support a government silencing protesters and dissent. Any respectable country should allow protesting and dissent. This BTW could be a way for each country to put pressure on each other, if the US and others makes an ethical condemnation of the Chinese government squashing dissent then that can make the Chinese government behave less authoritative (in fact this already happened since they stepped back on the extradition proposal) because, since they need more protagonism in the world stage, they need also to behave more in tune with human rights standards. The same I would expect other powers to condemn the US if they label an opposing group like Antifa as a terrorist organization.

...against the West's interventions abroad? Therefore, predisposed against Hong Kong and their desire for Western-style freedoms.
I'm against any country's interventions abroad and not, I'm not predisposed against that. I prefer each country should decide their own faith without foreign powers intervening and manipulating. Sadly, that's not the world we live in and, sadly, the US is one of the biggest offenders here but of course not the only one.

I'd say you are cheering from "a vicarious position" yourself. Heck, you're not even making an argument about the protests themselves but rather are stirring up (fruitless) disagreement about how those who cheer the HK protestors yet deride Antifa are contradicting themselves.
Like I said, I just notice the pattern which for me is fundamentally contradictory but explainable. But yes, of course my position is vicarious in this case but the pattern not so much since I have noticed it where I live too several times. Also the vicarious part is not a criticism, is just part of the observation of how these things usually roll.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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At the heart of it, crowbrow crowbrow you think there's a contradiction if someone supports the HK protestors yet condemns Antifa. I don't see it that way at all, obviously, and I'm wondering how you come to that conclusion. The plain facts of the situation would seem to disprove what you are implying. You are trying to shoehorn this situation into a false comparison and additionally you condemn the "hypocrisy". You're more concerned about "what Trump and others" say instead of looking at what the protests are about.

When you say "Where I see double standards is people supporting one and demonizing the other from each side because of their behavior when both behave so similar", you are implying that people who support one and demonize the other are somehow following conflicting beliefs, which you go on to explain is because people like to approve of protests in other countries as a "vicarious" (selfish) experience.

This is quite a tall assumption on your part, and it is something you've not even lifted a finger to demonstrate.

I think the simpler, more obvious conclusion is that these are two different situations with two different groups in two different countries. It is only natural that a given person might support one and condemn the other. It is also natural that a person might condemn both or support both. Remarkably, there is a range of opinions that exists on this topic.

Here are some more differences I see between the two groups, other than the obvious stuff that I've already pointed out like location, concentration of protest, number of members, message, etc


Where are Antifa's five demands? One might almost come to the conclusion that Antifa is a generic "anti Fascism" gang that goes around looking for fascists wherever they might be found. Antifa is usualy protesting other US citizens, not the government. In fact, Antifa enjoys the protection and support of the government in some American cities (see: Portland, OR).

The Hong Kong protesters (are they even a unified group?) aren't roaming the streets with the support of their law enforcement. The HK protesters aren't enjoying the protection of city hall, and they are definitely protesting against the government (unlike Antifa).

Your views on the situation are simplistic, and therefore you see "contradiction" based on the most superficial of similarities. When you dig deeper, you see how different the situations are, and therefore supporting one and condemning the other is a perfectly rational standpoint to take.

When poisoning the well with a dose of "both sides", try to use more discrete toxin next time.
 

crowbrow

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you think there's a contradiction if someone supports the HK protestors yet condemns Antifa.
If the condemnation comes from their tactics definitely since both are behaving with similar tactics and the basis to propose putting antifa on terrorism lists is based on their tactics. So yeah I think there's hypocrisy there.

You're more concerned about "what Trump and others" say instead of looking at what the protests are about.
Because my argument has nothing to do with the reasons for the protests themselves but mostly for the tactics the protesters use (the violent ones mainly) and the groups that support and condemn the protests in both instances which are pretty similar within both territories. About the issues themselves, I also mentioned how I support protesting out of principle, so I would support people protesting even if I don't agree with their viewpoints or issues, people should have a way to show dissent against any government through protesting.

which you go on to explain is because people like to approve of protests in other countries as a "vicarious" (selfish) experience.
I don't think people do it consciously but there's definitely a pattern there.

I think the simpler, more obvious conclusion is that these are two different situations with two different groups in two different countries.
Yeah but the same with the other instances I've mentioned where this pattern emerges. They are always different reasons of course but the pattern is there: inside the country social organizations and left-leaning celebrities or public figures (most of them usually) support the protesters against government oppression while conservative and government voices go against the protesters. When this pattern happens so often even when reasons for the protests are varied then I have to wonder.