cheezcake
Member
This is an important point. I don't think I'd be buying a Rift if I didn't get to try the dk1 and dk2 demos when they were both relatively new.
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PS VR has the strongest games lineup according to GameStop CEO
- Thread starter Get_craycray
- Start date
This is an important point. I don't think I'd be buying a Rift if I didn't get to try the dk1 and dk2 demos when they were both relatively new.
GT alone is bigger than anything coming for any other headset. Throw in other exclusives like Ace Combat and Rigs and its really easy to see what he means. Strength is obviously things that will perform well at retail in this context and Sony has more big names than anybody at the moment.
Also sony has increased the demo count at damn near event. Im not sure you are really following this.
I think the PC VR Defenders are being a bit absolutist here, a bit more nuance would be helpful.
1. "Far more efficient in the rendering pipeline". That's an incredibly interesting spin. Would you call XB1 games that run at 900p " far more efficient in the rendering pipeline" than their PS4 1080p counterparts?
Does the PS4 and XB1 include display or optical components in their solutions? Aahh, so you forgot that detail! This is fairly uncontroversial, pentile 1440p is reckoned to only have a marginal increase in IQ compared to rgb 1080p in March last year there was lots of dsiscussion on this, particularly in the more technical forums, and I never saw anyone particularly contest this. Does RGB confer a significant IQ adavatange at the same res, yes, so really what are you arguing about? In a Vive that 1440p image is processed by the display electronics to account for the lower mnumber of subpixels and this affects the quality of the IQ.
1. "PSVR can more easily get away with lower FPS, targeting 60, because of the hardware involved in the re-projection." There is no extra hardware either used or required in reprojection.
In PSVR Sony have a re-projection solution that is paying big dividends--which isn't true elsewhere AFAIK, 60 to 90 doesn't work too well apparently--I understand this is because of the refresh speed of the panel and the the sensor processing in the breakout box when rendering internally at 60 FPS. The pay-off is a 30% fill rate reduction. Arguably this is what allows PSVR to actually be succesful. Orientation latency is very low.
2. "Need significantly larger rendering targets for the same IQ". This is just untrue. The render targets are larger because Oculus and Vive want are going for a better VR experience, higher resolutions, higher framerates.
I understand Vive absolutley requires 457 million pixels/sec, that this is mandatory. We already know PSVR is getting big savings on fill rate due to RGB display and reprojection, doing the maths is illuminating.
3. "Hidden area stencil mesh equivalent". A Valve dev talked about that early last year and using it with Vive. Any software solution will be shared among all VR headset developers. PDF presentation for completeness.
I understand Sony have it (their particular spin-off) in their libraries, no one else does yet (AFAIK), its currently an advantage. Your disagreement here?
Sony have made lots of intelligent engineering decisions that allow their "HMD" to get within touching distance (say 8/10, compared to 9/10 or 10/10): RGB panel, 120hz panel, breakout box, non-fresnel optics.
1. "Far more efficient in the rendering pipeline". That's an incredibly interesting spin. Would you call XB1 games that run at 900p " far more efficient in the rendering pipeline" than their PS4 1080p counterparts?
Does the PS4 and XB1 include display or optical components in their solutions? Aahh, so you forgot that detail! This is fairly uncontroversial, pentile 1440p is reckoned to only have a marginal increase in IQ compared to rgb 1080p in March last year there was lots of dsiscussion on this, particularly in the more technical forums, and I never saw anyone particularly contest this. Does RGB confer a significant IQ adavatange at the same res, yes, so really what are you arguing about? In a Vive that 1440p image is processed by the display electronics to account for the lower mnumber of subpixels and this affects the quality of the IQ.
1. "PSVR can more easily get away with lower FPS, targeting 60, because of the hardware involved in the re-projection." There is no extra hardware either used or required in reprojection.
In PSVR Sony have a re-projection solution that is paying big dividends--which isn't true elsewhere AFAIK, 60 to 90 doesn't work too well apparently--I understand this is because of the refresh speed of the panel and the the sensor processing in the breakout box when rendering internally at 60 FPS. The pay-off is a 30% fill rate reduction. Arguably this is what allows PSVR to actually be succesful. Orientation latency is very low.
2. "Need significantly larger rendering targets for the same IQ". This is just untrue. The render targets are larger because Oculus and Vive want are going for a better VR experience, higher resolutions, higher framerates.
I understand Vive absolutley requires 457 million pixels/sec, that this is mandatory. We already know PSVR is getting big savings on fill rate due to RGB display and reprojection, doing the maths is illuminating.
3. "Hidden area stencil mesh equivalent". A Valve dev talked about that early last year and using it with Vive. Any software solution will be shared among all VR headset developers. PDF presentation for completeness.
I understand Sony have it (their particular spin-off) in their libraries, no one else does yet (AFAIK), its currently an advantage. Your disagreement here?
Sony have made lots of intelligent engineering decisions that allow their "HMD" to get within touching distance (say 8/10, compared to 9/10 or 10/10): RGB panel, 120hz panel, breakout box, non-fresnel optics.
I'm lost for words.. The rhetoric is that fascinating
Dragon Puncher
Member
Well, of course he would say that. If we count every possible experience, including demo's and prototypes though, there's no questing the PC will have more VR "games" than PS4. In my mind though, what's most important is that killer app, that convices people on a larger scsle that VR is worth your money, and who knows what that'll be or even if it's in development yet.
GhostTrick
Banned
Even if you count only games, PC has de facto more VR games thanks to legacy support.
VanquishUK
Member
It's certainly the nicest looking headset.
minecraft is going to be on oculus
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Is GT vr a VR only title, or is it just a normal console title with an optional VR mode tagged on to it?
travisbickle
Member
I'm sure it will be playable without a VR headset, but VR in a racing game is a lot more than a "mode tagged on".
Nope. Just nope.
cheezcake
Member
Okay so, the rendering pipeline is a term commonly used in graphics discussion. It ends in the generation of your final frame. It is totally independent of display technology. I have no idea why you're argument starts with talking about RGB vs Pentile again when the point you've quoted here is about the rendering pipeline.
It does offer an advantage at the same resolution, I'm arguing because obviously in this case PSVR is not the same resolution as the Rift or the Vive. I've read the discussions I'm certain you're talking about, in terms of raw lighting elements 1440p pentile only has a marginal increase over 1080 RGB. But this completely ignores the psychophysics behind image perception that causes Pentile to actually work. Our eyes are more sensitive to green than they are to red and blue, this fact is entirely ignored doing a raw subpixel analysis.
https://developer.oculus.com/blog/asynchronous-timewarp-examined/
Everyone has it, they just have different names for it.. It is a purely software solution. Any software solution can and will be equally applied among all the major VR headsets.
Subpixel structure has no effect on render requirements. If you're talking about the fact that they're using a 1080p display because they can get away with it using RGB, then yes that does allow a reduction in render cost for a loss in quality. Which is what I said. Again reprojection, aka ATW, will be available on any and all major VR platforms. If you did the smallest amount of research you would see that.
Also funnily enough, the very presentation that Valve mention that "absolute" render target of 457 mil pixels/sec literally has, in the very line below it, "We can reduce this to 378 million pixels/sec (later in the talk)".
Heh. Continuing on from my point above, that saving is exactly due to using a hidden area mesh. They also have a line which says "SteamVR/OpenVR API will provide this mesh to you". Like, do you understand what the hidden area mesh is even doing? It is not complicated, everyone will expose this in their API's. Thinking that Sony somehow have total and utter exclusivity over this purely software side feature is just bizarre.
Okay so yeh, given their constraints these are good engineering decisions. They are also not purely advantageous to it's main competitors in any way except for the 120 Hz refresh rate.
cheezcake
Member
There is a software called Vorpx which effectively allows you to make a bunch of older games VR ready. But the experience isn't good IMO. I wouldn't personally count them among proper VR games.
Correct. And this is something those of us with a 1080p pentile DK2 probably have understood even more than others. In specific cases like the default one-color red/orange static HUD like in Elite Dangerous, you will notice, at least on an unfiltered 1080p panel. But in practice sub pixel density doesn't make a linear difference, especially since we're normally dealing with a real-time sequence of images instead of one static image.
In a varying degree yes, some are better than others. Anyway, the guy that modded Richard Burns Rally used a Direct3D injection, and it ended up a relatively really good VR implementation.
https://youtu.be/0fEIrXv_vBY
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The thread title is misleading. Not the strongest lineup, but the largest lineup. And I doubt that seeing as PC has so much more in terms of backwards compatibility that will or already does support VR or can support VR with some work. It's not even close. Which is why those posts accusing him of being a company man seem to ring true.
Neuromancer
Member
The non conspiracy version of this is perhaps that he's seen more from Sony than he has from the other two.
PooBone
Member
First post hits the nail on the head.
It doesn't matter what anyone shows, Gamestop is only gonna back one of these. For very, very obvious reasons.
Just look at what they do with console bundles containing game codes instead of physical games.
Neuromancer
Member
I've said this several times in this thread and never gotten a response.
1. From this very article the guy says he has reached out to Valve and Facebook to try to sell Rift/Vive headsets and accessories at Gamestop.
2. Gamestop already sells Steam cards, no reason why they won't also sell Oculus Store cards.
3. Gamestop also sells gaming PCs. I know some people here make fun of that or the idea of buying prebuilt PCs or whatever but it's true.
4. To date we have no idea what PSVR games will be sold physically, if any.
So where are people getting the assumption that they don't sell any PC stuff or that they're not interested in these headsets? Because those assumptions are wrong.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
If that's the case, it'll do very little to sell the PS VR.
Chû Totoro
Member
Why are you always so right 1st post.
backbreaker65
Banned
I follow this stuff with regularity, and I know they have increased their Demo count, but it is a paltry count. The same demos get the headlines over and over again with regularity. I probably have more PSVR threads than anyone.
Not really surprising if you ask me. Sony is the only VR manufacturer with:
1. A strong collection of first party studios
2. Able to focus development on a single hardware set, allowing for less time performing QA and more time polishing the VR experience.
3. Have the deepest well of content providers to pull from with major Japanese 3rd parties getting involved as well as the same collection of western developers everyone else is targeting.
4. Likely will offer the lowest cost of entry.
Sony is in a pretty enviable position. They have a polished physical product designed with experience from their HMZ headset line's successes and failures, using established and purpose built hardware, with proven developers in-house and involved every step of the way. It is a very strong offering. They lack the high end user appeal of Rift or Vive, but that market isn't going to decide the fate of VR as a consumer product. Converting the mid-range gamer is what the technology requires to take off.
1. A strong collection of first party studios
2. Able to focus development on a single hardware set, allowing for less time performing QA and more time polishing the VR experience.
3. Have the deepest well of content providers to pull from with major Japanese 3rd parties getting involved as well as the same collection of western developers everyone else is targeting.
4. Likely will offer the lowest cost of entry.
Sony is in a pretty enviable position. They have a polished physical product designed with experience from their HMZ headset line's successes and failures, using established and purpose built hardware, with proven developers in-house and involved every step of the way. It is a very strong offering. They lack the high end user appeal of Rift or Vive, but that market isn't going to decide the fate of VR as a consumer product. Converting the mid-range gamer is what the technology requires to take off.
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
this was awesome, i remember they mentioning using movies to experience VR as well
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
You can experience that exact same thing too on your smartphone now
http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/sony-launches-the-walk-virtual-reality-app-on-ios-android/632397
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
You can experience that exact same thing too on your smartphone now
http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/sony-launches-the-walk-virtual-reality-app-on-ios-android/632397
i should get cardboard to test if VR wrecks my eyes before buying a VR headset, thanks!
fastest finger
Member
I know it's easy to see GameStop's comments as self-serving, but the sentiment is being echoed by UK retailers who have said PSVR is "in the strongest position, as it has the momentum of the PS4 and a promising line-up."
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/retail-dismayed-by-500-oculus-rift/0161196
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/retail-dismayed-by-500-oculus-rift/0161196
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Its too expensive. We were expecting £299, maximum. And where are the games? The concept is exciting but no-one has shown a game that works" said one senior buyer at a leading High Street chain.
This person is completely clueless.
Retail outlets are only really going to be able to sell games for PSVR. For PC VR solutions, retail is pretty much cut out outside of perhaps buying the VR kit itself
Yup. You've hit the nail on the head there I think.
You've also got to remember that there are already several good quality games available for the Oculus Rift before it's even released thanks to the DK1 and DK2 being around for so long:
Elite Dangerous/Horizons
War Thunder
Project CARS
Assetto Corsa
Plus third-party software such as VorpX that can VR-ify games that don't have VR support.
And out of the three HMDs the Oculus Rift is going to have more native support on launch day because developers have had Oculus Rift devkits for a couple of years longer than they've had Vive and PSVR devkits.
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