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[Zoe]

Understood, but I have no doubt that future games will require updated firmware, resulting in a loss of functionality.

But then wouldn't the onus be on the maker of the game, not the system?

 

[ChronicleX]

I suspect that Sony's defence against the "no longer fit for purpose" argument will be that access to PSN is not a right, and that they are offering users a clear choice between that functionality and the ability to install OtherOS.

I think its already been proven that they can simply withdraw access rights to the PSN network and all features relating to that service at their discretion. That being the case, the need to install the FW update is mandatory only in the sense of how it relates to PSN access.

Wrong. When new games come out updates are mandatory which would force the removal of the OtherOS feature regardless of PSN access, which is illegal. Also while as PSN exists and is operational denial of service without breaching the ToS of the PSN is also illegal.

If Sony is not breaking 1 law, then it is breaking at least 2 others.

 

[missile]

... I think its already been proven that they can simply withdraw access rights to the PSN network and all features relating to that service at their discretion. That being the case, the need to install the FW update is mandatory only in the sense of how it relates to PSN access. ...

It seems like that you've missed the point that you won't to able to play future
games that needs a fw 3.21+. So it does not only related to the PSN.

 

[Atilac]

Everytime I hear this i shake my head

The PS2 GPU has lots of bandwidth roughly 48 Gbits, thats 24 Gbit each way or :

19 Gbit frame buffer + 5 gbit texture buffer -> write

19 Gbit frame buffer + 5 gbit texture buffer <- read

Although i can't remember if the above is a 50/50 split read/write, it may of been 60/40

I think it also has about 1GB/s of bandwidth to access the main RDRAM.

The RSX has:

22.4 GB/s read and write bandwidth to GDDR (or 20.8)

and

20 GB/s read to the Cell and XDR memory
15 GB/s write to the Cell and XDR memory

Conveniently that adds up to about 47-48 Gbits in 2 discrete pools, that give you roughly the same bandwith as the PS2

Giga bit is different than Giga Byte...

 

[dogmaan]

Giga bit is different than Giga Byte...

read the end of my original post

 

[Rapstah]

Odd, when I arrived at home today to install this update it was already installed. I'm sure no one's turned on the PS3 for three days...

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

Odd, when I arrived at home today to install this update it was already installed. I'm sure no one's turned on the PS3 for three days...

 

[missile]

Just a small hint for those you will keep the OtherOS and who don't wanna use
the internet under the GameOS.

Disable the internet connection entirely under the GameOS just for the case
someone comes by installing the new firmware thinking doing you a favor. xD

 

[Clear]

It seems like that you've missed the point that you won't to able to play future games that needs a fw 3.21+. So it does not only related to the PSN.

But to circumvent that all Sony need do is to amend the EULA for future software products stipulating that to use them the game the user must have an appropriate FW revision installed. (Assuming that a similar clause isn't there already.)

The key thing is that the *capability* to play the software exists, same deal as with any PS3 being capable of accessing PSN. Capability is not the same as having the unconditional right of access.

 

[Slavik81]

Understood, but I have no doubt that future games will require updated firmware, resulting in a loss of functionality.

Technically that might not be the case. Each 'future game' may in fact be expanded functionality. That is, the list of games it can play normally grows, and if you refuse to install the firmware it stops growing, but does not shrink.

Though, you do lose out in other ways.

 

[jorma]

I think its already been proven that they can simply withdraw access rights to the PSN network and all features relating to that service at their discretion.

When was this proven and how?

I really hope this is not true at all.

 

[JudgeN]

When was this proven and how?

I really hope this is not true at all.

I think its cause PSN is considered a service, just like xbox live which can be taken away at any given moment based on EULA or something. ie When Microsoft took away xbox live for original xbox titles, even though people payed for live they were perfectly legal in taken it away.

 

[Azerach]

When was this proven and how?

I really hope this is not true at all.

http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2009/10/online_game_net.htm

Sony's Network is not similar to a company town. The Network does not serve a substantial portion of a municipality's functions, but rather serves solely as a forum for people to interact subject to specific contractual terms. Every regulation Sony applies in the Network is confined in scope only to those entertainment services that Sony provides.

 

[ChronicleX]

if you refuse to install the firmware it stops growing, but does not shrink.

Wrong. Lets say you own 3 games and all 3 games work that is a 3/3 = 100% works. Now throw in a game that requires an update that you own and suddenly your working games have shrunk by 25%.

Taking away otherOS is 1 thing, Sony can attempt to argue that it is the customers choice to not install it and it is their choice to not allow people on PSN without said firmware. However if a customer owns a game and they must install this update in order to play it then the choice argument is void. MAG is a good example of this.

 

[Clear]

Yeah I was referring to the Estavillo suit that got thrown out last September.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25495

 

[Rapstah]

Wrong. Lets say you own 3 games and all 3 games work that is a 3/3 = 100% works. Now throw in a game that requires an update that you own and suddenly your working games have shrunk by 25%.

Taking away otherOS is 1 thing, Sony can attempt to argue that it is the customers choice to not install it and it is their choice to not allow people on PSN without said firmware. However if a customer owns a game and they must install this update in order to play it then the choice argument is void. MAG is a good example of this.

The game wouldn't actually know it requires an update without PSN.

 

[ChronicleX]

The game wouldn't actually know it requires an update without PSN.

yes it would if the update is on the disk. Don't be a moron.

 

[Rapstah]

yes it would if the update is on the disk. Don't be a moron.

I thought you were talking about game updates.

 

[Dynoro]

I thought you were talking about game updates.

Okay; say you want to play an online only game. You cannot play it and have OtherOS now.

 

[Megadragon15]

I thought you were talking about game updates.

I'm very sure he was talking about a firmware update, which some games require to be on the most recent or a fairly recent one.

 

[jorma]

Yeah I was referring to the Estavillo suit that got thrown out last September.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25495

Interesting read. But in this case i assume there is an underlying violation of the TOS? So it's not really at their discretion in this case. I'm thinking more of reasons like "i dont like the look of your face" or "Trettons niece wants your PSN username, so we're booting you off" or "We dont like what you wrote about Uncharted 2 on GAF so we are kicking you out"

That's what "at their discretion" means to me =)

 

[AndyD]

Okay; say you want to play an online only game. You cannot play it and have OtherOS now.

But that is covered by the EULA which states online game service may be discontinued at any time. Its in the game's EULA and also the PSN EULA.

I think the point of stops growing but does not shrink applies still.

Interesting read. But in this case i assume there is an underlying violation of the TOS? So it's not really at their discretion in this case. I'm thinking more of reasons like "i dont like the look of your face" or "Trettons niece wants your PSN username, so we're booting you off" or "We dont like what you wrote about Uncharted 2 on GAF so we are kicking you out"

That's what "at their discretion" means to me =)

At their discretion means they can turn off the PSN tomorrow and tough cookies for everyone.

 

[patsu]

Factor in that one gets a PS3 as well (and not only a PC), meaning, playing games,
watching BDs and so on.

Sure, PC casual games are huge. iPad will have its own games given time. PS3 open source development has been slow, it won't speed up just because we get Linux back.

 

[jorma]

At their discretion means they can turn off the PSN tomorrow and tough cookies for everyone.

Still not the same thing as keeping the service up, but denying individual users who did not violate the TOS.

 

[Dynoro]

But that is covered by the EULA which states online game service may be discontinued at any time. Its in the game's EULA and also the PSN EULA.

I think the point of stops growing but does not shrink applies still.

I would be surprised that in the case of MAG (for example) that Sony could justify preventing access to a game that is still being sold full price in stores and is first party (I believe). I cannot see how they can force this firmware update on people where it disables a purchasing feature of the system (OtherOS).

The consumer should not be forced to choose which of the pre-firmware 3.2.1 features they get to keep.

 

[Sarye]

But that is covered by the EULA which states online game service may be discontinued at any time. Its in the game's EULA and also the PSN EULA.

I think the point of stops growing but does not shrink applies still.



At their discretion means they can turn off the PSN tomorrow and tough cookies for everyone.

Sorry but that's stupid. One of Sony's biggest selling point is free online. I fail to see how just because it's in the EULA makes that statement okay.

 

[ChronicleX]

At their discretion means they can turn off the PSN tomorrow and tough cookies for everyone.

Indeed, however if they do not do this then the user has not broken the ToS of the service and should retain access to it because the service is still operational.

 

[railGUN]

Legality aside, I'm just as done with Sony as much as I can be. I'm not going to say I'll never buy another Sony product, but I'm not supporting this company like I once did. I don't, and never did use Linux on my PS3 but thats not the point. I can't stand big corporations nuking my system from space because they didn't have the foresight to see that the OtherOS option might open unwanted doors.

I'm really sad that everyone isn't completely outraged by this, regardless of whether you use the OtherOS feature or not. You don't even need shitty metaphors to describe what Sony is doing. They are fucking their customers plain and simple.

 

[jorma]

Legality aside, I'm just as done with Sony as much as I can be. I'm not going to say I'll never buy another Sony product, but I'm not supporting this company like I once did. I don't, and never did use Linux on my PS3 but thats not the point. I can't stand big corporations nuking my system from space because they didn't have the foresight to see that the OtherOS option might open unwanted doors.

I'm really sad that everyone isn't completely outraged by this, regardless of whether you use the OtherOS feature or not. You don't even need shitty metaphors to describe what Sony is doing. They are fucking their customers plain and simple.

Yup, i don't care about OtherOS at all, but i still hope this bites them in the ass somehow, because next time they will remove shit i DO care about.

 

[patsu]

It's more a problem of Sony staying silent. If they don't tell us what's at stake, people will always take it the negative way.

 

[beast786]

Legality aside, I'm just as done with Sony as much as I can be. I'm not going to say I'll never buy another Sony product, but I'm not supporting this company like I once did. I don't, and never did use Linux on my PS3 but thats not the point. I can't stand big corporations nuking my system from space because they didn't have the foresight to see that the OtherOS option might open unwanted doors.

I'm really sad that everyone isn't completely outraged by this, regardless of whether you use the OtherOS feature or not. You don't even need shitty metaphors to describe what Sony is doing. They are fucking their customers plain and simple.

Were they also fucking us over when they improved bunch of stuff via firmware for free. Or if you take one away and we then forget of all the improvement PS3/PSN got since launch for free.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

Anyone else as filled with anxiety as I am about updating their PS3 on April Fool's Day?

 

[Azerach]

Were they also fucking us over when they improved bunch of stuff via firmware for free. Or if you take one away and we then forget of all the improvement PS3/PSN got since launch for free.

I still remember cursing sony for not implementing in game XMB and having to quit out of a game to read a message :lol

 

[AndyD]

Sorry but that's stupid. One of Sony's biggest selling point is free online. I fail to see how just because it's in the EULA makes that statement okay.

I am not saying they will.

Just that they could and the EULA would likely excuse them from legal liability. The EULA is a contract you enter in when you use the device.

For obvious reasons, it would never happen.

I would be surprised that in the case of MAG (for example) that Sony could justify preventing access to a game that is still being sold full price in stores and is first party (I believe). I cannot see how they can force this firmware update on people where it disables a purchasing feature of the system (OtherOS).

The consumer should not be forced to choose which of the pre-firmware 3.2.1 features they get to keep.

For MAG its one thing because its still being sold. But the fatty PS3s with OtherOS have been gone from shelves for months.

So its really down to people who have had a PS3 for a long time now that it affects. No current or say past 6 months advertising on the PS3 says OtherOS, because its all slims without OtherOS. I dont mean a straggler on the shelf somewhere, I mean produced items.

Servers for games get shutdown all the time once they are out and old. People complain but they have no recourse, because EULAs protect the companies. There was a post yesterday about Tabula Rasa for PC still being sold at retail for $30 even though its online only and the servers are gone.

 

[jorma]

Were they also fucking us over when they improved bunch of stuff via firmware for free. Or if you take one away and we then forget of all the improvement PS3/PSN got since launch for free.

No, they were not fucking anyone over when they provided a lot of good stuff at no extra cost.

 

[railGUN]

Were they also fucking us over when they improved bunch of stuff via firmware for free. Or if you take one away and we then forget of all the improvement PS3/PSN got since launch for free.

I'm sure Sony improves things with firmware updates because they love me. Not because they are competing in the video game console business with a couple other multi-billion dollar companies.

The "not being able to use my PS3 for a day because of the nice leap year firmware glitch" was an excellent feature that re-connected me with nature for a day. Thanks Sony.

 

[patsu]

Anyone else as filled with anxiety as I am about updating their PS3 on April Fool's Day?

To be frank, it felt like killing a unicorn.

The press should go ask Sony for more details like now... since the patch is out. They have to tell Sony that people are not happy with the silence.

 

[Yoshichan]

Installing this atm

 

[patsu]

I'm sure Sony improves things with firmware updates because they love me. Not because they are competing in the video game console business with a couple other multi-billion dollar companies.

The "not being able to use my PS3 for a day because of the nice leap year firmware glitch" was an excellent feature that re-connected me with nature for a day. Thanks Sony.

Actually, OtherOS, the photo app, Folding@Home, Life w/ PS are not necessary to compete in the console space. In fact, it's better for them to use these resources on PSN and games.

 

[RedNumberFive]

The press should go ask Sony for more details like now... since the patch is out. They have to tell Sony that people are not happy with the silence.

The gaming press will do no such thing. As long as they can regurgitate press releases and keep the companies that give them games and freebies happy, this will never happen.

 

[Clear]

Legality aside, I'm just as done with Sony as much as I can be. I'm not going to say I'll never buy another Sony product, but I'm not supporting this company like I once did. I don't, and never did use Linux on my PS3 but thats not the point. I can't stand big corporations nuking my system from space because they didn't have the foresight to see that the OtherOS option might open unwanted doors.

I'm really sad that everyone isn't completely outraged by this, regardless of whether you use the OtherOS feature or not. You don't even need shitty metaphors to describe what Sony is doing. They are fucking their customers plain and simple.

I honestly doubt Geohot's exploits have anything to do with removing OtherOS, its just a convenient pretext for globally removing the functionality as they can now turn around and say "we did it for security reasons".

Like I said awhile back, when the feature was cut from the slim SKU's last year the writing was on the wall. Its probably just a cost-saving measure (no longer maintaining the OtherOS hypervisor) or to eke out a bit more memory for XMB.

Personally I'm kind of on-the-fence about it all. No doubt what Sony is doing is deplorable, but I can see their logic in discontinuing a feature that is enjoyed by only a small percent of the userbase, especially if it frees up resources to be expended elsewhere.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

To be frank, it felt like killing a unicorn.

The press should go ask Sony for more details like now... since the patch is out. They have to tell Sony that people are not happy with the silence.

I don't do anything "radical" with my PS3 like alt-OS, etc.

I just...you know, use it for Blu Ray and gaming and STILL I can't help but think, "Oh fuck...what's going to happen once it's installed."

 

[patsu]

The gaming press will do no such thing. As long as they can regurgitate press releases and keep the companies that give them games and freebies happy, this will never happen.

Ha ha... don't be mad at them. Let's see.

 

[Sarye]

Servers for games get shutdown all the time once they are out and old. People complain but they have no recourse, because EULAs protect the companies.

Yeah I agree with that and that's the reason why it's in the EULA. But a server shutdown means no one can play. I think people expect that to happen eventually.

However this is a bit different. It means that only some people can't play unless they agree to having some features removed. And that's what sucks.

I don't really care about Linux but it sets a precedent. I don't want SONY to decide down the road to remove BC via a software update because they plan on selling these games on the PSN and holding my multiplayer games hostage essentially forcing me to do it.

 

[beast786]

I'm sure Sony improves things with firmware updates because they love me. Not because they are competing in the video game console business with a couple other multi-billion dollar companies.

The "not being able to use my PS3 for a day because of the nice leap year firmware glitch" was an excellent feature that re-connected me with nature for a day. Thanks Sony.

It doesnt matter if they love you or hate you. The fact it when they provided improvement I am sure you enjoyed it. Yet one loss and now they are the worst company ever and boycott the company.

Please keep in mind, I am not defending taking otherOS out. All I am saying is put things perspective.

As per the day where you couldnt use PS3 for one day. Seriously, that bothered you that much :lol . My internet went down yesterday, My electricity went down for few hourse last month. Shit happens. :lol

 

[lupinko]

I honestly doubt Geohot's exploits have anything to do with removing OtherOS, its just a convenient pretext for globally removing the functionality as they can now turn around and say "we did it for security reasons".

Like I said awhile back, when the feature was cut from the slim SKU's last year the writing was on the wall. Its probably just a cost-saving measure (no longer maintaining the OtherOS hypervisor) or to eke out a bit more memory for XMB.

Personally I'm kind of on-the-fence about it all. No doubt what Sony is doing is deplorable, but I can see their logic in discontinuing a feature that is enjoyed by only a small percent of the userbase, especially if it frees up resources to be expended elsewhere.

Yup, really geohot's adventures were just a convenient excuse for them to drop the final blow to OtherOS.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Ha ha... don't be mad at them. Let's see.

Investigative journalism is not in their blood.

 

[RedNumberFive]

I don't really care about Linux but it sets a precedent. I don't want SONY to decide down the road to remove BC via a software update because they plan on selling these games on the PSN and holding my multiplayer games hostage essentially forcing me to do it.

Exactly! I enjoyed using Other OS, but my life will move on. The whole point is that if you roll over on this feature being cut, you're telling Sony that it's OK to do it whenever they damn well please.

 

[badcrumble]

Yup, really geohot's adventures were just a convenient excuse for them to drop the final blow to OtherOS.

'The final blow'? Honestly, what happened here is almost certainly that some know-nothing higher-up suit saw geohot's blog, freaked out, and told the firmware team to remove OtherOS without even investigating whether things were truly secure or not.

 

[railGUN]

It doesnt matter if they love you or hate you. The fact it when they provided improvement I am sure you enjoyed it. Yet one loss and now they are the worst company ever and boycott the company.

Please keep in mind, I am not defending taking otherOS out. All I am saying is put things perspective.

As per the day where you couldnt use PS3 for one day. Seriously, that bothered you that much :lol . My internet went down yesterday, My electricity went down for few hourse last month. Shit happens. :lol

The density in this thread is just crazy. You keep justifying this bullshit and continue to support Sony. I'm going to say enough is enough and try my best to not support it.