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PS3 Firmware Update 3.21 of preventing piracy by removing Linux.

Massa

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Jan 16, 2009
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RavenFox said:
How old are you? Were you downloading 8 gig files in 1997 and 2002? How many bluray burners did you own back then?
Common sense would tell you different times and different architecture right? The yester years have no relevance to this specific issue.
Are you aware that every system except the PS3 can play pirated games? Including the Xbox 360 which sells a lot more software.
 

Kalren

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Jun 7, 2004
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AndyD said:
But the answer hinges on two things - if a vulnerability is found, and also BC has already been removed in the hardware.
Was a vulnerability actually found with the Other OS? Or was it just a potential vulnerability that Sony reacted to?

PS3 exist and were sold with BC...
 

Kalren

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Jun 7, 2004
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Solstice said:
But the question is about vulnerability, because the only reasonable reason to remove it would be if it was a security risk.
So you are saying yes? If they found BC had a security hole, they should remove it?
 

patsu

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Jun 19, 2005
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I think the difference is B/C -- if present -- will help Sony make money to fund the continual development. OtherOS does not contribute $$$, and is used by very few people, and yet now pose a security risk that can affect Sony, partners and PSN users. One day if few people want B/C, then it may go away like publishers taking away old/obsoleted game servers.

The talent invested in OtherOS can be used to do something that benefit more PS3 users.
 

railGUN

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Nov 19, 2005
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patsu said:
I think the difference is B/C -- if present -- will help Sony make money to fund the continual development. OtherOS does not contribute $$$, and is used by very few people, and yet now pose a security risk that can affect Sony, partners and PSN users. One day if few people want B/C, then it may go away like publishers taking away old/obsoleted game servers.

The talent invested in OtherOS can be used to do something that benefit more PS3 users.
They took money for OtherOS when it was a feature on the box. It did contribute $$$. I highly doubt Linux just "magically" worked on the PS3. They spent money on developing a feature that they marketed, which, like it or not, attaches a value to that feature. Removing that feature at a later date with no refund or compensation should be illegal, or it opens some scary doors. This "but you can choose to not upgrade" is an even slipperier slope. How is this solution even remotely fair? It's insulting.
 

OldJadedGamer

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Feb 28, 2006
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RavenFox said:
How old are you? Were you downloading 8 gig files in 1997 and 2002? How many bluray burners did you own back then?
Common sense would tell you different times and different architecture right? The yester years have no relevance to this specific issue.
With the PS2 you could install any off the shelve 3.5 HDD and run a special disc then Rent/borrow games and back them up to the HDD. The same could be done for even the biggest Blu-ray game. What is different in the technique from the PS2 to the PS3 in this situation?

All one would need is a huge cheap HDD and a Gamefly account. No Blu-ray burner needed... no 50 gig download needed either but same end result.
 

patsu

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Jun 19, 2005
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missile said:
patsu, no offense, but please read my posts more carefully. Well, I wrote; "... First
an foremost I think that having the RSX enabled from day 1 would have made the
PS3 a good competitor for low-end PCs over time. ...
". That is to say, open source
would had been much for flourish on PS3 if the RSX were accessible day 1, leading to
said good competitor. And I do believe that your requested 'speed up' could had attained
as well in this case.
RSX would have helped, but the reason I am negative against PS3 Linux now is because economically speaking, it does not make sense. There is no competition with low-end PCs. Every PS3 sold without game is a loss to Sony. The low-end PCs, netbooks, etc. are all sold for profit. Over time, the PCs will drop in price, and gain in even more software. PS3 Linux is not a sustainable business. Throwing resources there is a dead end.

The OtherOS feature does not depend on open source. Open source makes it a lot easier
to utilize the PS3 under the influence of the OtherOS. Hence, judging the usefulness of
whether there is any open source or even huge open source activity under the OtherOS is,
at best, very subjective.
Well... like it or not, Linux is OtherOS's only outcome today.
 

CircleOfFire

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Dec 22, 2008
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It sucks they're taking away the OtherOS functionality. But I wish people in this thread would stop saying Sony took away backwards compatibility, the card readers and the SACD functionality. They stopped putting the feature in newer consoles and that's it with _those_ features.

A lot of the attitude here has been treating it as if Sony slipped into their homes in the middle of the night and worked over their PS3 with a baseball bat to stop them from playing PS2 games.
 

Reallink

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Jan 7, 2008
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panda21 said:
I don't think thats actually in the law though surely? If it stopped being able to play the games sold to run on it then fine, but all they have to do is say on the box of the new ones 'requires firmware 3.21 or greater' and i don't see how its illegal.

Aren't there 360 games that require an HDD? does that mean 360 arcade owners can sue microsoft?

If sony decided to fuck everyone over and switch to PS3.5 games that run only on the slim from now on, i think that would be legal. there is no requirement for them to keep releasing games that run on the older models.
There are probably a hundred different laws that could be applied here, and none of them are going to be black and white. The crux of this case is really the removal of advertised functionality. That is what separates it from your Arcade analogy as well as other controller-required titles. Adding an HDD to a Core doesn't disable Xbox 1 BC for instance. They can put anything they want on a box or in a EULA in an attempt to cover their ass, but that doesn't mean a court is going to back it up.
 

RoninChaos

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Solstice said:
This is copied and pasted from another forum, but I think it's relevant here:
They didn't do that shit because they were nice people. They did it because the Xbox 360 does almost ALL of that stuff out of the box. They did it to stay competitive.
 

patsu

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railGUN said:
They took money for OtherOS when it was a feature on the box. It did contribute $$$. I highly doubt Linux just "magically" worked on the PS3. They spent money on developing a feature that they marketed, which, like it or not, attaches a value to that feature. Removing that feature at a later date with no refund or compensation should be illegal, or it opens some scary doors. This "but you can choose to not upgrade" is an even slipperier slope. How is this solution even remotely fair? It's insulting.
Some people bought PS3 for Linux and gaming. These people should find an avenue to talk to Sony for compensation or refund. I don't know what Sony will say because PS3 was sold at a heavy loss in the first place. It's something that probably requires arbitration.

For most of the gamers, they may not care. In fact, you may find some people happy about Sony focusing on games.
 

patsu

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CircleOfFire said:
It sucks they're taking away the OtherOS functionality. But I wish people in this thread would stop saying Sony took away backwards compatibility, the card readers and the SACD functionality. They stopped putting the feature in newer consoles and that's it with _those_ features.

A lot of the attitude here has been treating it as if Sony slipped into their homes in the middle of the night and worked over their PS3 with a baseball bat to stop them from playing PS2 games.
Yes, not to mention the newer SKUs are cheaper.
 

panda21

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Mar 25, 2008
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Reallink said:
There are probably a hundred different laws that could be applied here, and none of them are going to be black and white. The crux of this case is really the removal of advertised functionality. That is what separates it from your Arcade analogy as well as other controller-required titles. Adding an HDD to a Core doesn't disable Xbox 1 BC for instance. They can put anything they want on a box or in a EULA in an attempt to cover their ass, but that doesn't mean a court is going to back it up.
the thing is they aren't removing the functionality.

they are giving you the choice of upgrading to a newer firmware to be able to play newer games. they aren't taking anything away from people who choose not to upgrade.

whether they will only be able to play a few (ie the wii controller or hdd analogy) or no newer games if they choose not to update seems irrelevant to me. what if all wii games happened to require a nunchuck from now on?

just because sony choose to only release games that require a higher firmware from now on (and even this probably won't be uniform since it depends on when the game was developed) doesn't prevent the older games from working if you choose not to upgrade.

your argument seems to be based on the fact that sony are somehow required to keep providing games that run on a non-upgraded older console, which is nonsense
 
Let me quote an interesting article from ps2dev.org;

ps2dev:Oobles said:
... Today Sony will release a new version of the Playstation 3 firmware(v3.21). This release has the single purpose of removing the OtherOS feature from all PS3 consoles (both earlier fat models and latest slim versions). This type of announcement might normally be considered an April Fools day joke. However, in this case it is real and Sony are being the fools.

It would seem that this is knee jerk reaction to the recent progress announced by George Hotz (geohot) at breaking the Hypervisor security. However, Sony executives are not that stupid and would realize that this will do little to stop these advancements. Developers such as Geohot won't upgrade their console and are likely to continue to make progress. This decision is more likely a planned obsolescence to remove a feature that Sony MBA educated marketing executives see as a useless feature that reduces the value of the Playstation brand.

It is obvious from these maneuvers that the Sony gaming and console division is struggling to survive the current onset from companies Nintendo, Apple and Microsoft. The 'hey day' of the Playstation 2 platform five years ago is lost and Sony executives missing out on bonuses and pay rises are attempting to do anything they can to resurrect their once dominant gaming platform. Sony continue to miss out of excellent opportunities that the architecture of the Playstation 3 provide.

Many believe that the root cause of this is the retirement of Ken Kutragi, the persion who originally steered the Playstation group. Following his retirement Sony brought in executives with little understanding of the brand and eco-system that revolves around the Playstation division. What is worse, is that these "MBA educated marketing executives" who make decisions based on graphs, projections and the results of surveys conducted by external marketing companies are failing at delivering innovates products to the market.

Nintendo have blown Sony out of the water with their Wii console that is cheap to manufacture and first introduced the Wiimote. Apple have blown Sony out of the water with their App store and casual gaming. Microsoft have equalled Sony in the current console wars and continue to steal exclusive titles from Sony. The sad part of this is that the Playstation 3 provides the ground work for exciting and innovative products.

To 99% of Playstation owners, the removal of the OtherOS feature is a non event. It won't be missed and will not have been used. It is a blip on any usage graph. To 1% of Playstation owners it is a platform for developers to cut their teeth on the Playstation hardware. It provides an avenue for young developers to write software for the Cell CPU. It provides the gateway that these young developers who will eventually be paid to write the AAA titles by large gaming companies. Sony will effectively starve out the next wave of developers for their platform and the quality and number of games will continue to drop. These 1% of developers are a large part of what brings the best out of the Playstation platform.

However, Sony have already done that. The landscape has changed from the Playstation 2 days. Why would a developer want to cut their teeth on the Playstation hardware. A young developer can easily pickup an Apple iphone development kit and release their own mini-game and start making money. Apple are already extending that platform to the iPad. Apple understand the simple rule of creating a great developer eco-system around their products. Sony continue to fail in this area, living in the closed systems of the Playstation 2 days.

The OtherOS feature is built on a Hypervisor which provides a secure sand box that could be used to create a huge developer community of the likes of the Apple iphone. The Hypervisor could have been the basis for an App Store and a free developer tool kit. The Hypervisor could have been the basis for a simple developer programming language such as Squeak. Sony took the first step in providing the OtherOS feature, but failed to take the subsequent steps to make this feature the basis for something great.

When Sony bring out their App store or iPad competitor where will the developers be? The developers might be with Apple learning their API and building the next wave of new titles on the iphone. The developers might even be with Google learning the Android APIs. They might be with Microsoft learning their APIs and building new and innovative titles for them. The next round of developers won't be with you Sony because you don't have any API's to learn. Soon your platform will only get the sequels, or the AAA titles that are easy to port to the Playstation 3 so that large companies can extract a few more dollars out of your gaming community. You won't be getting the best developers because they won't know your hardware or your APIs.

The Sony MBA educated marketing executives who seem to currently control the Playstation brand are fools. Have a happy April, Fools!
[Ref]
 

railGUN

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Nov 19, 2005
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panda21 said:
the thing is they aren't removing the functionality.

they are giving you the choice of upgrading to a newer firmware to be able to play newer games. they aren't taking anything away from people who choose not to upgrade.

whether they will only be able to play a few (ie the wii controller or hdd analogy) or no newer games if they choose not to update seems irrelevant to me. what if all wii games happened to require a nunchuck from now on?

just because sony choose to only release games that require a higher firmware from now on (and even this probably won't be uniform since it depends on when the game was developed) doesn't prevent the older games from working if you choose not to upgrade.

your argument seems to be based on the fact that sony are somehow required to keep providing games that run on a non-upgraded older console, which is nonsense

Making a customer pick between different, useful functionality of a product that offered full functionality at the time of purchase is not fucking acceptable business practice. Period. It's practically extortion.
 

panda21

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railGUN said:
Making a customer pick between different, useful functionality of a product that offered full functionality at the time of purchase is not fucking acceptable business practice. Period. It's practically extortion.
except you aren't choosing functionality. by not updating you get a perfectly reasonable functionality, several years worth of games and other os.

the fact that future as yet unreleased games that require a new firmware version don't work is irrelevant. its exactly the same as if all new ps3 games only ran on the slim. i dont see how that would be illegal, so long as they were sold as such.
 

railGUN

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Nov 19, 2005
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panda21 said:
except you aren't choosing functionality. by not updating you get a perfectly reasonable functionality, several years worth of games and other os.

the fact that future as yet unreleased games that require a new firmware version don't work is irrelevant. its exactly the same as if all new ps3 games only ran on the slim. i dont see how that would be illegal, so long as they were sold as such.
Can I keep Linux and play MAG today?
 

Fugu

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Jan 25, 2009
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panda21 said:
except you aren't choosing functionality. by not updating you get a perfectly reasonable functionality, several years worth of games and other os.

the fact that future as yet unreleased games that require a new firmware version don't work is irrelevant. its exactly the same as if all new ps3 games only ran on the slim. i dont see how that would be illegal, so long as they were sold as such.
Except people bought the PS3 under the condition that the PS3 was capable of doing both at the same time; the PS3 wasn't marketed as "capable of running Linux OR new games"; Sony is introducing a contingency and is forcing you to choose which functionality you want.

Your example of the Wii and the Nunchuck is flawed because the Wii isn't marketed as being capable of playing games that require the Nunchuck without a Nunchuck. The PS3 is marketed as being able to utilize Other OS AND having total library compatibility with itself. In this example, Sony is now forcing its userbase to pick between two features.

Sony is providing you a choice, yes, but regardless of which choice you pick you will end up with less features than you had last week.
 
patsu said:
RSX would have helped, but the reason I am negative against PS3 Linux now is because economically speaking, it does not make sense. There is no competition with low-end PCs. Every PS3 sold without game is a loss to Sony. The low-end PCs, netbooks, etc. are all sold for profit. Over time, the PCs will drop in price, and gain in even more software. PS3 Linux is not a sustainable business. Throwing resources there is a dead end.
With your kind of reasoning there wouldn't even be a Linux today. 'You' have to
start somewhere.

patsu said:
Well... like it or not, Linux is OtherOS's only outcome today.
The main intention was to run Linux, granted.

pancakesandsex said:
Hey, you got your tag!
Fits him quite well. xD
 

Reallink

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Jan 7, 2008
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panda21 said:
the thing is they aren't removing the functionality.

they are giving you the choice of upgrading to a newer firmware to be able to play newer games. they aren't taking anything away from people who choose not to upgrade.

whether they will only be able to play a few (ie the wii controller or hdd analogy) or no newer games if they choose not to update seems irrelevant to me. what if all wii games happened to require a nunchuck from now on?

just because sony choose to only release games that require a higher firmware from now on (and even this probably won't be uniform since it depends on when the game was developed) doesn't prevent the older games from working if you choose not to upgrade.

your argument seems to be based on the fact that sony are somehow required to keep providing games that run on a non-upgraded older console, which is nonsense
But that is the whole point of this potential plaintiff argument--they are effectively removing functionality in either situation. Your choice is to either lose OtherOS or the ability to play new physical media. These accessory-dependent examples are irrelevant because they do not feature this dichotomy of loss and gain. Obviously there is no loss of advertised Wii functionality in adding a Motion Plus dongle, the situation simply doesn't apply. I believe your difference is based on the assumption Sony has the right to release "Playstation 3 Software" that is not playable on "Playstation 3 Hardware" (effectively of their choosing) because they said so. This argument's point is that there are likely several consumer laws in place that says that isn't so. They can not force consumers to either give up a feature (that may have a high value for some people) in order to continue using a product as it was represented (e.g. play past, present, and future Blu-Ray Discs/Playstation 3 software).

Your argument is basically like Samsung selling you a "CD/DVD Player" (explicitly marketed as such) and later saying you have to do an update that removes the CD functionality if you want to continue playing DVD's. If you can't see the wrong in that and consider it black and white legal, God help us all if there are many more like you out there. I don't know how to put it any simpler.
 

Massa

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missile said:
Let me quote an interesting article from ps2dev.org;


[Ref]
It's very easy to rebut that article.

Sony's "three pillars" for the PlayStation in 2010 are:

- 3D gaming;

- Motion controller;

- Paid subscription to PSN;


You can't look at that list and say Sony haven't been paying attention to what their customers want. Come on, those things are exactly what people have been asking for!
 

beast786

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Massa said:
It's very easy to rebut that article.

Sony's "three pillars" for the PlayStation in 2010 are:

- 3D gaming;

- Motion controller;

- Paid subscription to PSN;


You can't look at that list and say Sony haven't been paying attention to what their customers want. Come on, those things are exactly what people have been asking for!

You forgot what a huge victory Bluray was also. People dont realize that everything has a unique business model. A sucess of Bluray is worth more than being in 2nd place in overall console install base.

That article is stated from a small point of view. Bigger picture of what sony has accomplished and there vision is very different.

3D/Bluray/TV. All part of a bigger vision.

This Looom and dooms theorist crack me up. :lol

My next article is going ot be how Honda Civics are selling more than porchues. Hence , Porchue is going down :lol
 

beast786

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missile said:
Cross Game Chat, anyone?

To get that .. first they had to implement in game XMB. (which they did)

Then they implemented cross game text chat.

Now we expect Cross game voice chat.

You do realize things work in sequences. right?
 

OldJadedGamer

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Feb 28, 2006
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beast786 said:
To get that .. first they had to implement in game XMB. (which they did)

Then they implemented cross game text chat.

Now we expect Cross game voice chat.

You do realize things work in sequences. right?
Not really since other systems had cross game chat from launch.
 

beast786

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OldJadedGamer said:
Not really since other systems had cross game chat from launch.
But the other system didnt had features that PS3 had either HDMI port, Internet etc etc. And since then, background downloading and others have been implemented that were at that time more important.

Think about it. You are comparing it to a Free vs Paid service. And want everything that Paid service proivde.
 

Kittonwy

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Feb 21, 2006
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Kalren said:
The question wasn't if a vulnerability was found or not. It was how reasonable it is to remove it?
But they're not removing BC for the older models, why would I even need to judge whether it's reasonable or not? Reasonable for whom?

As for OtherOS, it's probably reasonable for Sony because they probably don't want the system hacked, it's probably not reasonable for the few who use otherOS, for those who don't use it like myself, why should I even give a shit either way? Not to mention it's fucking hypothetical, you can ask the same question on a number of other features, some I care about, and some I don't.

At the end of the day, it's a matter of what I value more, I've never used it, I have no plan of ever using it, I'm not sure why it's there in the first place, I've never considered my PS3 to be some sort of PC, to me it's a fucking game console/blu-ray player.

On the other hand, I don't want the system hacked because pirates will try to exploit those very hacks, I fucking hate pirates because they're FUCKING THIEVES, so if removing it would shut the door in the faces of hackers and prevent those hacks which pirates might try to exploit, why should I need to join the outrage?
 
Feb 17, 2005
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I just realized it's April Fools Day and 3.2.1...Is just like the last part of a countdown, or in our case, the first part of a meltdown:lol
 

Brofist

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21 pages in and people are still entering this topic just to say "I don't care since I never used it". I have a feeling this topic will last a while. :lol
 

Cruzader

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Jul 23, 2007
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Somewhere...
I got a Q. If I have a PS3 offline all the time and buy a new game, say Uncharted 3 and still have FW 1.6 or some weird old FW, the game wont boot till I update to the newest FW?
 

androvsky

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Kittonwy said:
On the other hand, I don't want the system hacked because pirates will try to exploit those very hacks, I fucking hate pirates because they're FUCKING THIEVES, so if removing it would shut the door in the faces of hackers and prevent those hacks which pirates might try to exploit, why should I need to join the outrage?
I wouldn't mind so much if there was an even mildly plausible route to piracy, especially if piracy was actually happening. Preventing the geohot hack would just require a simple patch to the hypervisor that wouldn't even impact the linux kernel.

But instead of taking the simple step of patching a minor hole that can't even be used for piracy, Sony shat their pants and removed OtherOS completely.

I hate to say it, but it really looks like they were just looking for an excuse to get rid of it now that Kutaragi's gone, since their reasoning for removing it from the Slim was weak as hell.
 

Zero-Crescent

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androvsky said:
I wouldn't mind so much if there was an even mildly plausible route to piracy, especially if piracy was actually happening. Preventing the geohot hack would just require a simple patch to the hypervisor that wouldn't even impact the linux kernel.

But instead of taking the simple step of patching a minor hole that can't even be used for piracy, Sony shat their pants and removed OtherOS completely.

I hate to say it, but it really looks like they were just looking for an excuse to get rid of it now that Kutaragi's gone, since their reasoning for removing it from the Slim was weak as hell.
I think Phil Harrison's departure contributed more to the shift in the political climate regarding Linux, since publicly, he seemed to be the primary champion of that particular feature. Of course, Linux in general, seems to be a far bigger deal in Europe than in Japan and America.
 

Slavik81

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panda21 said:
I don't think thats actually in the law though surely? If it stopped being able to play the games sold to run on it then fine, but all they have to do is say on the box of the new ones 'requires firmware 3.21 or greater' and i don't see how its illegal.

Aren't there 360 games that require an HDD? does that mean 360 arcade owners can sue microsoft?

If sony decided to fuck everyone over and switch to PS3.5 games that run only on the slim from now on, i think that would be legal. there is no requirement for them to keep releasing games that run on the older models.
.

This might be a dickish move, but there's no way that this is illegal.

ChronicleX said:
Wrong. Lets say you own 3 games and all 3 games work that is a 3/3 = 100% works. Now throw in a game that requires an update that you own and suddenly your working games have shrunk by 25%.
You aren't making any sense. There is no game in existance that requires firmware 3.21 so it's impossible for you to already own one.

All the games you owned when firmware 3.21 released still would work after it released. Nor are you losing the ability to play games released after firmware 3.21 if you choose not to upgrade: you never had that ability before firmware 3.21, either.

Installing firmware 3.21 gains you the ability to play games released after 3.21. Not installing it doesn't mean that you lose that ability, but that you don't gain that ability.
 

railGUN

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Nov 19, 2005
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Slavik81 said:
.

This might be a dickish move, but there's no way that this is illegal.


You aren't making any sense. There is no game in existance that requires firmware 3.21 so it's impossible for you to already own one.

All the games you owned when firmware 3.21 released still would work after it released. Nor are you losing the ability to play games released after firmware 3.21 if you choose not to upgrade: you never had that ability before firmware 3.21, either.

Installing firmware 3.21 gains you the ability to play games released after 3.21. Not installing it doesn't mean that you lose anything, but that you don't gain that ability.
I believe MAG will no longer work if you don't get the newest firmware. In fact anything that connects to the PSN will no longer work.
 

Slavik81

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railGUN said:
I believe MAG will no longer work if you don't get the newest firmware. In fact anything that connects to the PSN will no longer work.
Everything on PSN will eventually no longer work anyways. It was never promised to you that it would.