Dragona Akehi
Retired
NinjaFusion said:
God forbid people used a feature on a system and are angry it was taken away.
I bought a PS3 in part because it had Linux and I needed an extra computer at the time.
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PS3 Firmware Update 3.21 of preventing piracy by removing Linux.
- Thread starter Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
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God forbid people used a feature on a system and are angry it was taken away.
I bought a PS3 in part because it had Linux and I needed an extra computer at the time.
Gaz Pwnage
Member
honestly, this is a disgrace. Sony have totally and utterly messed up this generation and arnt making matters any better
dr_octagon
Banned
I'm sure it's been done to death but it's worth remembering that it is a matter of principle. It doesn't matter that it affects a small number of people, Sony are at fault. A retroactive effect of removing such a feature, which was a selling point for some, is a big deal. It's not just people complaining for the sake of it, iapetus is spot on about the rights of the consumer and I don't see why this should be an exception.
But this isn't to say one couldn't create a business out of the OtherOS /obonicus said:
PS3Linux. And I think Sony had a couple of ideas in mind which didn't took off
the way they thought. But honestly, locking out half of the performance of
the PS3, i.e. the RSX, doesn't make the system very attractive for many people
in the field of multimedia / graphics programming. With the RSX enabled things
would look different today, for sure. Quite a bunch of software 'cannot' be
ported just because of the lack of graphics acceleration. Given that, the
OtherOS feature was more or less only attractive for people who weren't
into graphics and related stuff, which cuts out quite a bunch of people.
Which is pure speculation. I wouldn't be surprised if they use Cell again.obonicus said:
Sure. But this wasn't always the case, esp. not during the first years of itspatsu said:
development.
You know what, I would pay $100 to Sony for just getting an activation keypatsu said:
from the PSN to get the OtherOS + RSX enabled on a Phat / Slim. Why can't
this be a reliable business model? Some people would start to build / port
multimedia applications, whatever, over to PS3Linux making the system
much more attractive for many other people who may likely buy an
activation key in the process. I know people who would pay $100 just for
seeing one particular application running under PS3Linux!
I silently assumed that almost all people do have a fw >= 2.4 (if I rememberjonabbey said:
the number correctly) on their system.
Naked Snake
Member
nm
frontieruk
Member
we buying into this that the lv2 hypervisor has been dumped? removed link as guessing site is on banned list
test_account
XP-39C²
What happend to my previous post in this thread (i wrote it some days ago, but i forgot to ask before now)? Was my post removed? I cant find that post again now at least. Was some other posts removed as well? There was something that i wanted to reply to, but i cant find that post again either. It wasnt really anything important though, so it doesnt really matter that much, but i was just wondering I think that TheBranca18 answered to my question if i am not mistaken, so thanks for the answer to my question
I am just kidding hehe, i understand what you mean with what you wrote But i think that some of the defendig does make sense though, at least in my opinion. Maybe i dont agree with all the defending and maybe some of the defending is due to people are being bias towards a company, but even if i shouldnt agree with all of the defending, in some cases i can see the reasoning behind some of the defending.
In this case with removing the OtherOS feature from the PS3, i can see why some people defend it because a lot of people dont use Linux on their PS3, so they wont be affected when the OtherOS feature was removed. Maybe some people who are defending it is saying that it isnt that big of a deal that the OtherOS feature is removed because many people wont be affected by this. And maybe some people defend this because it might lead to piracy on the PS3, so from a business perspective it could have been a wise decition by Sony to remove the OtherOS feature if it could prevent piracy on the PS3. So i think that there are some valid points to defend the removal of the OtherOS from older PS3 models, but that is just my opinion What do you think?
I also wonder if some people dont like the removal of the OtherOS feature mainly because a feature is being removed, even if they dont use this feature. I remember when Sony discontinued the 60GB PS3. I then had to buy a PS3 because i wanted the PS2 backward compability and the built-in memorycard reader. But during the last 2 years or so, i have played maybe 3-4 PS2 games on my PS3 and i have used the memorycard reader once just to test it. So i mostly bought my 60GB PS3 back then because i wanted these features, but it turned out that i really didnt need these features afterall (i dont regret anything about buying my 60GB PS3 back then though, i am very happy that i bough my 60GB PS3 since i have had much fun with my PS3). I wonder if it is something similar to some of the complaints about removing the OtherOS from older PS3 models, that some people complain about it mostly because they lose a feature, even if they dont use it. But i dont know, i am just speculating.
If you dont have Linux installed on your PS3, how would the removal of the OtherOS feature affect you? I am just curious
EDIT: I added some text. And i am sorry for some late replies here, i didnt check the thread in some days, so i didnt get around to reply before now, sorry.
I think that TheBranca18 answered to my question if i am not mistaken, so thanks for the answer to my question If GAF's mother is in bed with Sony, does this need to be defended? =) I mean, couldnt it be assumed that GAF's mother was in bed with Sony of her own free will because she wanted to have a good time? Hehe =) Doesnt most people enjoy a good time and any defending need about having a good time? Hehegregor7777 said:
I am just kidding hehe, i understand what you mean with what you wrote But i think that some of the defendig does make sense though, at least in my opinion. Maybe i dont agree with all the defending and maybe some of the defending is due to people are being bias towards a company, but even if i shouldnt agree with all of the defending, in some cases i can see the reasoning behind some of the defending. In this case with removing the OtherOS feature from the PS3, i can see why some people defend it because a lot of people dont use Linux on their PS3, so they wont be affected when the OtherOS feature was removed. Maybe some people who are defending it is saying that it isnt that big of a deal that the OtherOS feature is removed because many people wont be affected by this. And maybe some people defend this because it might lead to piracy on the PS3, so from a business perspective it could have been a wise decition by Sony to remove the OtherOS feature if it could prevent piracy on the PS3. So i think that there are some valid points to defend the removal of the OtherOS from older PS3 models, but that is just my opinion
What do you think? I also wonder if some people dont like the removal of the OtherOS feature mainly because a feature is being removed, even if they dont use this feature. I remember when Sony discontinued the 60GB PS3. I then had to buy a PS3 because i wanted the PS2 backward compability and the built-in memorycard reader. But during the last 2 years or so, i have played maybe 3-4 PS2 games on my PS3 and i have used the memorycard reader once just to test it. So i mostly bought my 60GB PS3 back then because i wanted these features, but it turned out that i really didnt need these features afterall (i dont regret anything about buying my 60GB PS3 back then though, i am very happy that i bough my 60GB PS3 since i have had much fun with my PS3
). I wonder if it is something similar to some of the complaints about removing the OtherOS from older PS3 models, that some people complain about it mostly because they lose a feature, even if they dont use it. But i dont know, i am just speculating.If you dont have Linux installed on your PS3, why are you pissed?LM4sure said:
If you dont have Linux installed on your PS3, how would the removal of the OtherOS feature affect you? I am just curious From what i have read about it, i think that it might be true that the LV2 hypervisor has been dumped. But i guess that it remains to see how much that people can do with this dumped data. I think that it shall be interesting to see what happends at leastfrontieruk said:
EDIT: I added some text. And i am sorry for some late replies here, i didnt check the thread in some days, so i didnt get around to reply before now, sorry.
On a technical note; OtherOS != Linux. So there is the possibility that....test_account said:... If you dont have Linux installed on your PS3, why are you pissed?
Being able to install a debug firmware on a retail PS3 would be a pretty good start.test_account said:
Dumping the lv2 hypervisor while trying to install such a firmware may reveal what
condition the firmware checks to prevent its installation. A debug firmware allows
to run unsigned code under the GameOS, which would open the door for homebrew
on the PS3.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
How about you remove some of those smileys while you're at it?test_account said:
:O :| :/ :\missile said:
It doesn't matter. Most businesses lose money in their first two years. It's called an investment. The point is in the long run, Linux is sponsored by businesses and user donation. In the long run, PS3 Linux cannot compete with NetBook, iPad, and other low cost PC.
Because it is not SCEA's core business. The gamers would rather SCEA invests all its resources into gaming. In addition, having an alternate platform on PS3 weakens Sony's position. It's like users taking over Xbox Live for their own purposes.
I am not sure if $100 is sufficient when the volume is low and the hardware is losing money. Mac OSX is cheaper because the hardware margin is higher. Also, how many consumers would buy a Linux PC these days ? The scene is dominated by Windows and Mac OSX.
Did you pay for Yellow Dog to keep the PS3 Linux momentum going ?
Speaking about the 'long run'; PS4, anyone?patsu said:
Up until recently.patsu said:
I think the Slim is close to break even. To tell the truth, I know quite somepatsu said:
people who would even paid $500 just for the OtherOS feature on the Slim.
Anyway, that's a different story.
I'm speaking more or less from the perspective of the PS3. Just for example,patsu said:
there are parents who have installed Linux onto their PS3 such that their kids
could also use the PS3 as a computer.
Built my own Linux (for a special purpose) to keep the momentum going frompatsu said:
another direction.
patsu, I can understand if you can't use PS3Linux for your own purpose, no
problem, but don't forget that there are many people out there who can make
a good use of it. Have fun on your iPhone.
missile said:
PS4 will be starting from zero base whereas PC, netbook already has 2 decades of software. They will become cheaper and cheaper too.
I doubt it. The UI is still pretty rough compared to polished OSes like Windows and Mac. I bought an iPad for my kid. Much more refined, user friendly and there are a lot of free/cheap games and educational titles for him already.
See ? Why should Sony support Linux on PS3 then ? At least I paid for YDL subscription to keep Yellow Dog going.
patsu, I can understand if you can't use PS3Linux for your own purpose, no
problem, but don't forget that there are many people out there who can make
a good use of it. Have fun on your iPhone.
That doesn't answer Sony's question of sustaining the business. People can make good use of pirated software and enjoy at Sony's expense too. Doesn't mean Sony is obliged to entertain them.
For what it's worth, few people use PS3 Linux. SCEA is obliged to focus its resources on gaming and entertainment software.
test_account said:If you dont have Linux installed on your PS3, why are you pissed?
Because this sets a precedent for a hardware manufacturer to remotely disable an advertised feature of the hardware that they had previously committed to maintaining, in violation of European law. I don't care what that feature is, or whether I want to use it personally, they should not be allowed to get away with it.
patsu said:
Because they sold the PS3 as being capable of running Linux, and claimed it was one of the most powerful features of the device. They don't have to actively support the community, but likewise they can't just remove that capability.
Moundir&Tony>you
Member
Haven't read the whole thread , but I guess the fact that you can keep 3.15 firmware and connect to PSN has already been mentioned ... hasn't it ?
Moundir&Tony>you said:
Yes, as has the risk associated with it (opening you up to all manners of attack should the DNS server you use be compromised), the fact that it doesn't work around some of the other issues (specific games requiring latest firmware) and the fact that if it becomes an issue Sony are likely to take steps to close it down.
CadetMahoney
Member
with this and the apocalyps3 this is a strong contender for the worst "year of the PS3" years so far.
The source of that "proxy bypass" DNS server for 3.15:
http://rvlution.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=123
If you run your own DNS at home, you can do this, too...
http://rvlution.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=123
If you run your own DNS at home, you can do this, too...
Geohot is godlike:
http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/2010/04/otheros-supported-on-321oo.html
Too bad I said screw it and updated my PS3 anyway.
Edit: I should have read the thread.
http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/2010/04/otheros-supported-on-321oo.html
Too bad I said screw it and updated my PS3 anyway.
Edit: I should have read the thread.
Sutanreyu said:
Just a couple of posts above yours too. :lol
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20649465&postcount=2176
Seriously though, this has been posted way too many times today, we get the idea, he's doing stuff.
Was this posted? Saw it on Slashdot just now.
http://www.thinq.co.uk/news/2010/4/7/sony-update-bricks-fat-playstations/
http://www.thinq.co.uk/news/2010/4/7/sony-update-bricks-fat-playstations/
Mine didn't 'brick' but after the update if I try to watch a Blu Ray it'll freeze up after 20-30 minutes and refuse to read discs. If I kill it completely with the switch at the back, it'll read discs again, but the same thing happens consistently - 20 minutes into a movie, it 'dies'synt4x said:
Is it just the disc drive dying or is it the firmware update? 60 GB, repaired from a YLOD once.
test_account
XP-39C²
Ok, i understand what you mean. But doesnt the PS3 EULA say that Sony can remove, add or edit features on the PS3? I have read someone who said this at least, but i am not 100% sure if it is true or not. And when you use a PS3, you have to agree to the EULA? How commited is a company to support a feature if it says in the EULA that they can remove it? I dont know how the PS3 EULA is according to european law though.iapetus said:
Regarding setting a precedent, is this the first time in history that a feature have been remotely disabled? If not, is there any special reason why the removal of the OtherOS feature would set a precedent? But if this is the first time something like this happend, then i see what people mean with setting a precedent.
But if a precendet is now set, what effect will it have on hardware devices in general? Will companies start to remove features from their products because a precedent is set? I dont think that any company really wants to remove any feature from their products unless they see a good reason for it (at least from a business perspective) because it can make some of their consumers angry, and no company wants their consumers to be angry at them, so if a precedent is set now, what effect will it have on hardware devices in general?
If a feature on a hardware device can be exploited in a bad way (like for example leading to piracy), and removing the feature is the only way to prevent this exploit, should a company be forced by law to do nothing to stop this exploit? I guess it can depend exactly on what kind of feature that is affected, if it is a very important feature that a lot of people use or if it is a feature that maybe not that many people use. But i think that this is a difficult question to answer, so i dont really know the answer to this. But i think that it is an interesting question at least
The PS2Linux Kit was never ment to be a business the way you might think;Fafalada said:
From the PS2 Linux Community one can read; "Linux (for PlayStation 2) is
aimed mainly at the hobbyist home computer enthusiast.... Linux ... is a great
way to learn more about Linux, computers and programming as well as being
a powerful development platform for the experienced Linux user. ..." -- [Ref]
And therefor it would be good to have a Linux running day 1 on PS4.patsu said:
Don't know if that holds true. KDE, for example, is a pretty good UI to begin with.patsu said:
As a child I used GeOS on a C64 and got no problems using it. I always loved, and
still love, to tinker around with the hardware I do play games on. Programming some
lines in BASIC on my C64 back in the days really got me started. It was so awesome.
You are funny, aren't you? :lolpatsu said:
Why Sony should support PS3 Linux? From a business point of view; to save money.
Let's looks again at the fw 3.21 PS blog; ... security concerns ... mkay....
Going by the same logic they need to bring back the OtherOS, because without it
the PS3 has become much more vulnerable. No? I think the guys around Goeff
have seen this coming but the authorities thought otherwise. I hope they will
somehow turn back to Goeff & friends to ask how we all can go along. Linux, the
Open Platform concept, or anything for that matter isn't the problem. The
problem simply is that some authorities at Sony don't know how stuff works.
Hacking is a community approach, it's largely based on sharing ideas. More
people, more / different ideas. Individuals like GH and M do sometimes influence
the scene, but if you look at it, they do not really work with the community.
Both claimed to have the lv2 hypervisor since for about two months, but none of
them has shared the dump to the public. JB on the other hand is much more
open-minded;
"Jaicrab: a pleasure working with you friend [DemonHades].
Best to all! A week ago I started to dismount for the first time a PS3 and
install Linux without any experience. My only goal was to teach people to
change the cooling of a PS3. Gradually I was calling attention to the world
of SCENE and a eek I give the LV2."
Look from where he was coming from! He just wanted to change the cooling
system of the PS3.
JB was able to dump the lv2 hypervisor, utilizing GH's hack, just 3 days after
Sony has taken away the OtherOS feature, releasing it to the public. This is
what the removal of the OtherOS has lead to, emphasizing people in hacking the
PS3. No?
If the authorities at Sony aren't listening to their technical engineers, then
Sony may pay an utterly high price in the end, which will exceed the cost of
maintaining PS3Linux in order of magnitudes.
A proper supported PS3Linux will diminish the attempts and enthusiasm of
hacking the PS3. There would be no reason in hacking the PS3 while having
the OtherOS and the RSX enabled, no other than piracy, of course.
Emphasizing hacking on the PS3 may perhaps lead to piracy in the end.
I hope you got your answer, patsu. You may still feel free to disagree, but
I don't think that piracy can be countered by locking out features. Quite the
contrary will be the case. Well, it would be interesting to see how a possible
loss due to piracy on PS3 will stand upon the cost of maintaining PS3Linux.
As a big company you have to give something back to the community even if it
cost you a little. But it's not like that Sony hasn't done something like this
in the past, we've got the PS2Linux Kit. Let me repeat what I've written above;
"... Linux (for PlayStation 2) is aimed mainly at the hobbyist home computer
enthusiast.... Linux ... is a great way to learn more about Linux, computers
and programming as well as being a powerful development platform for the
experienced Linux user. ...". And up to my point of view, this is why Sony should
support the OtherOS / PS3Linux further. Education is the highest value we have.
Everybody has to spent a little. No?
Sony should reconsider their decision and go ahead with something we all can
go along with. The OtherOS + RSX is all what is needed.
And if the two reason I've given above, i.e. education and diminishing
interest in hacking the PS3, aren't worth to be considered, then please keep the
OtherOS feature out of the PS3. But one thing is for sure, locking out the OtherOS
feature from the PS3 will definitively lead to a dead end for Sony.
test_account said:
And that's where I stopped reading. Laws are bigger than EULAs.
In fact, EULAs aren't even comparable - they hold ZERO legal weight.
It's like asking "Is 10 bigger than red?".
The correct answer is "WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?".
I had a physics professor once who went off on a rant about the difference between a right answer, a wrong answer, and the insipid shit he got from the majority of the class.
It was great. I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was to the tune of:
Your answer is a number when you should have a vector. We're talking about current here and your fucking answer is in Newtons. What you have done here offends me.
Do games also freeze after that period of time? Can you still access XMB or quit Blu-Ray playback by ejecting the disc?Chrange said:
If so, that sounds rather similar to when my Blu-ray drive failed, the XMB and things were still responsive, so there wasn't any system-wide crash.
test_account
XP-39C²
Why did you stop to read there? If i read the rest of my post, you see that i didnt make any claims on how EULA works because i wasnt sure how EULA always hold up in court and i wanted to ask about thisMudkips said:
(i know that you havnt said that i made any claims about how EULAs work though, but i just wonder why you would stop to read my post after i mentioned "EULA" ).Laws are bigger than EULAs indeed, that is true as you say, but are you saying that even if i choose "i agree" to a EULA, i can then violate everything that is written in the EULA and never get convicted of it? I have always thought that EULA is some sort of contract that agree to when you click "i agree", and contracts are usually legaly binding i think. Maybe not every single thing that is written in a EULA (or that is written in a contract for that matter) will hold up in court even if you choose to click "i agree" though, but maybe some parts of the EULAs holds up in court if you choose to agree with the EULA?
But why is EULAs used so often if they hold zero legal weight? Wouldnt it just be a waste of time and rather pointless to use EULA if they basically are of no use? That sounds strange to me at least, but i dont know much about what the law says regarding EULAs, so i dont know.
Honestly i dont think that i have ever read a whole EULA before, at least not what i can remember, so i dont know what a EULA says makes sense or not, but isnt the things that is usually written in the EULA pretty straight forward or doesnt it make sense at all what is written in the EULA? Do you have any examples from a EULA that doesnt make sense? I think that it would be cool to see something from an EULA that doesnt make sense
EDIT: I added some text.
EDIT 2: I am sorry for the a bit late edit here, but i forgot to write something in my post.
I believe most companies just include bullshit (unenforceable or just void stuff) to scare customers, hoping some actually believe they are binding. That said, almost all EULAs are partially valid and enforceable - parts that are unlawful are void, though. The PS3 EULA tells you not to reverse engineer anything, and that part is invalid for example.test_account said:Laws are bigger than EULAs indeed, but are you saying that even if i choose "i agree" to a EULA, i can then violate every single EULA and never get convicted of it? And why is EULAs used so often if they hold zero legal weight? Wouldnt it just be a waste of time and rather pointless to use EULA if they are of no use? That sounds strange to me at least, but i dont know much about what the law says regarding EULAs, so i dont know.
And honestly i dont think that i have ever read a whole EULA before, so i dont know what a EULA says makes sense or not, but a EULA is usually fairly long, so there must be something in the EULA that makes sense?
CrayzeeCarl
Member
I'm guessing "Rebuild Database?" It seems to fix numerous problems.pot said:
missile said:
I don't think it's a sure thing. After this incident, I'd think Sony will think very hard before exposing a Linux layer for their content platform. :lol
You're not an average consumer. You said your friend's girl friend only need web browser and other simple desktop apps. If there is no commercial interest in PS3 Linux, it will just fall behind. Yellow Dog ported stuff to PS3 Linux, but the overall experience still suck (e.g., YDL 6.1 has broken WiFi).
You have just proved my point. Chasing down Linux security holes is a distraction. They should save resources and focus on entertainment.
False. If SCEA is losing money, how do they give back ? Why not ask GM to give back something to the community ? It's a super huge company. They need to appease the shareholders and core customers first.
Secondly, do you have proof that PS3 Linux cost a little ? They already mentioned that writing Linux drivers for new PS3 model is non-trivial, and delay launches.
This contradicts your original claim that PS3 can compete with low cost PC for the average consumers (e.g, your friend's girl friend). It's just a dev env for Cell.
Too little, too late.
test_account
XP-39C²
Ok, so some parts of EULA is valid and holds up in court while other parts might not hold up in court? That makes sense to me, i would be surprised if all points in EULAs in general didnt hold any legal weight at all at leastwsippel said:
I also guess that laws can be different from country to country, so maybe something in a EULA holds up in court in one country, but that doesnt hold up in court in another country?Ye, i guess that could be the reason indeed, that some companies writes some points in their EULA just to scare the consumers and hope that the consumers think that some of the points the the EULA are binding as you say.
Ok, i see, so reverse engineering the PS3 is legal? That is cool
I remember there was some big legal case when a guy got convicted for cracking the DVD protection, but he won in court, so i guess that also goes under reverse engineering, or? Do you know if removing features from the PS3 is a void in the EULA by the way?In the United States the answer is generally no.test_account said:Ok, i see, so reverse engineering the PS3 is legal? That is cool
Chilling Effects said:
test_account
XP-39C²
Ah ok, i see, thanks for the info!Slavik81 said:
But Geohot never got convicted for reverse engineering the iPhone (i think he did that at least?) i think, does that mean that it was legal or didnt Apple want to take any legal action against it? What will happend if Sony decides to take legal action against those who try to reverse engineer the PS3, will that hold up in court in the United States or will it not hold up in court?While I think this is a very stupid thing for Sony to do, going the legal route is total bullshit on your part. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it should be a legal matter, even if in Big Brother Euro it's technically illegal for some pansy-pandering reasons.iapetus said:
It's complicated, and I don't know. Suffice to say that at the very least, it's grounds for a long and expensive legal battle, regardless of who ends up winning.test_account said:Ah ok, i see, thanks for the info!
Fortunately, being a jerk isn't illegal... 'cept in Britain.loosus said:
loosus said:
No offense, but you're a complete tool. You're exactly the type of sheep that Sony wants PS3 owners to be.
iapetus has every right to take the legal route, especially if Sony is walking the fine line themselves.