-
Introducing NeoGAF Gold
PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news
- Thread starter CozMick
- Start date
- 1594
I know that, in the end, it depends on the Japanese consumer's willingness to adapt, but its precisely the Japan Broadcasting Corporation (NHK), with the work from their NHK Science & Technology Research Laboratory (http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/english/index.html), the one who is prominent nowadays in the development of a new broadcasting system based on Ultra High Definition TV imagery and called Super Hi-Vision.
They have even demonstrated in own events like the OPEN HOUSE 2011 Exhibition (http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/open2011/index_e.html) the possibilities that brings this new system, and the different technology advancements devised for its application, as testified by their technical reports published (http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/technical/02_super.html):
・Technical Development Towards Implementation Of Extremely High Resolution Imagery System With More Than 4000 Scanning Lines [IBC2006]
http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/technical/pdf/02_1.pdf
・22.2 Multichannel Sound System for Ultra High Definition TV [SMPTE2007]
http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/technical/pdf/IBC2007_08040907.pdf
・An Ultra High Definition Color Video Camera With 1.25-inch Optics and 8k x 4k Pixels [SMPTE2004]
http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/technical/pdf/02_3.pdf
They have even demonstrated in own events like the OPEN HOUSE 2011 Exhibition (http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/open2011/index_e.html) the possibilities that brings this new system, and the different technology advancements devised for its application, as testified by their technical reports published (http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/technical/02_super.html):
・Technical Development Towards Implementation Of Extremely High Resolution Imagery System With More Than 4000 Scanning Lines [IBC2006]
http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/technical/pdf/02_1.pdf
・22.2 Multichannel Sound System for Ultra High Definition TV [SMPTE2007]
http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/technical/pdf/IBC2007_08040907.pdf
・An Ultra High Definition Color Video Camera With 1.25-inch Optics and 8k x 4k Pixels [SMPTE2004]
http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/technical/pdf/02_3.pdf
Inferno OS
In doing some searches for keywords this popped up.
Still don't know if this is in any way associated with Sony or their Vita PSP2. Keywords that interested me were the name of the maintainer, "Vita" as well as it's a distributed processing model and it's cross platform both interpreted or compiled native. Also, as the link shows OLPC was interested in this and Sony apparently got many of their ideas for Vita from the Sugar interface and OLPC.
Sony toyed with and published a patent for Cell distributed processing.
As Androvsky stated; "there are many ways to support cross platform". Playstation Suite has us all guessing.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...=45&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
In doing some searches for keywords this popped up.
Still don't know if this is in any way associated with Sony or their Vita PSP2. Keywords that interested me were the name of the maintainer, "Vita" as well as it's a distributed processing model and it's cross platform both interpreted or compiled native. Also, as the link shows OLPC was interested in this and Sony apparently got many of their ideas for Vita from the Sugar interface and OLPC.
Sony toyed with and published a patent for Cell distributed processing.
As Androvsky stated; "there are many ways to support cross platform". Playstation Suite has us all guessing.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...=45&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
Sony Exec talks
" multifunctional capabilities that are going to be market leading in 2012 and 2013" What does that sound like, just a new browser or a Gnome Mobile Sony (closed platform) Multimeda flavor Linux or whatever?
IF Sony is waiting for Gnome 3.2 (September 28, 2011) so that they can use the State of the Art GTKwebkit browser and browser desktop features in Gnome 3.2, they will be the first to have these features outside of Linux and the above quote (Market Leader in 2012 and 2013) from Sony will be true.
Downside is this gives us a timeframe for these new features that extends at the earliest October 2011 to the latest 2012.
More information:
1) PS3 OS Linux used the RSX 256meg memory as a swap partition, it being much faster than swap to the hard disk. The PS3 multifunctional entertainment side can do the same minus enough Video frame memory for 3-D video. The game side RSX memory must be used for games (assets and shader). androvsky mentioned this in a previous thread
GNOME 3 released, ushers in an interesting amalgam of iOS and OS X
Release Notes for Gnome 3.0
Again, I am not saying that Gnome 3 will be ported to the PS3 or Vita. What I am saying is that ideas and code from Gnome 3 and the OLPC project have been and will be used in Sony platforms. How much gets ported intact in a recognizable form is debatable and depends on Sony plans for the PS3.
" multifunctional capabilities that are going to be market leading in 2012 and 2013" What does that sound like, just a new browser or a Gnome Mobile Sony (closed platform) Multimeda flavor Linux or whatever?
IF Sony is waiting for Gnome 3.2 (September 28, 2011) so that they can use the State of the Art GTKwebkit browser and browser desktop features in Gnome 3.2, they will be the first to have these features outside of Linux and the above quote (Market Leader in 2012 and 2013) from Sony will be true.
Downside is this gives us a timeframe for these new features that extends at the earliest October 2011 to the latest 2012.
More information:
1) PS3 OS Linux used the RSX 256meg memory as a swap partition, it being much faster than swap to the hard disk. The PS3 multifunctional entertainment side can do the same minus enough Video frame memory for 3-D video. The game side RSX memory must be used for games (assets and shader). androvsky mentioned this in a previous thread
GNOME 3 released, ushers in an interesting amalgam of iOS and OS X
Release Notes for Gnome 3.0
Again, I am not saying that Gnome 3 will be ported to the PS3 or Vita. What I am saying is that ideas and code from Gnome 3 and the OLPC project have been and will be used in Sony platforms. How much gets ported intact in a recognizable form is debatable and depends on Sony plans for the PS3.
Sony brings new 3-D viewing Technology to the PS3
PS3 gets "worlds First" 4K by 2K visual Magazine
PlayView being updated for 4K resolutions, 3D support and in-game browsing.
GT5 used Playview for their Car Database.
How is it done? With technology developed for web browsers, Probably Cairo that was necessary for the PS3 webkit port.) Webkit supports the same technology to be resolution independent. The libraries ported into the PS3 with webkit add functionality.
Edit: I've been using the term SVG and incorrectly applying it. Cairo is known primarily as a SVG library but it also contains Pixman. The combination of the two allows scale-able (zooming) for vector and pixel based graphics as well as the digital manipulation of pictures and video when bound with gstreamer. This is an important point as this is the primary reason Sony is including it in the PS3 OS.
So now we are seeing a 4K by 2K video standard being supported by the PS3, it's picture support with zooming (3-D coming) at this time (its said to work with movies) but why that standard.....my guess has been that the PS4 will have 4k by 2k media rendering. Sony has been up-converting all their movies to 4K and filming new ones in that standard.
Playview allows lower resolution displays to access higher resolution content, this includes pictures and movies, by supporting zooming. This is similar to how the PS3 displays pictures which can be zoomed into with one joystick with the other allowing travel in the picture.
It is nothing new, the iTablet and iPhone has had a zooming interface as do Android platforms as everything on them uses SVG graphics. In my opinion the PS3 is going to support SVG in the same way, all PS3 routines will be rewritten to use Cairo for rendering as has already been done with all 2011 Sony networked products like TVs and Blu-Ray players. Two things then become possible, Zooming and international Fonts with Cairo-Pango.
The PS3 is the KEY for Sony to introduce 3-D high resolution pictures and Video to consumers as well as how they can display those formats when using Sony cameras. Edit: at this time I don't think it supports 4K video.
OK, so I just killed part of my argument above in message 554 <grin>.
Playview is also being discussed in NeoGAF @ http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=435890
Edit: And it has not been confirmed that Cairo is being used for Playview. I assume it is as it's capable of doing so and is the only SVG library that we know is in the PS3. I say library because my understanding is that OpenGL does the work.
There are multiple chains of logic supporting Sony using Cairo rather than custom code. The biggest is that they will want Playview media usable on multiple platforms and Cairo is a cross platform library usable on any platform with OpenGL and also on Windows and other backends.
Cairo contains Skia code (Android) and all Webkit browsers support a common SVG standard which, using the same logic, Playview probably uses the webkit SVG library which is supported by Cairo in the PS3.
Something similar at a website http://memorabilia.hardrock.com/ It's just SVG and hyperlinking, at this site totally supported in a browser with SVG. So from functionality it appears that Cairo is being used to support Playview in the PS3. Again from Sony, the Playview library can be called and used by a game as well as webkit and webkit support libraries which includes Cairo.
If Playview is using a webkit SVG standard then Playview would use the SVG library supporting webkit on a platform. For Android, the Skia compiled library of openGL calls, for the PS3 and Vita, the Cairo library of compiled openGL calls.
Looking at functionality, Playview also has to know how to display fonts, pictures, Movies and music also 3-D. That requires multiple libraries of considerable size. I would guess it's a certainty that the webkit support libraries, which have to support all the above for webkit, are being used for/by Playview.
1) Sony started work on the GTKwebkit April 2010
2) Sony applied for a trademark for "Playview" (date on article is June 2010)
3) Showed a working Playview at CEDEC Sept 4, 2010.
4) PS3 Firmware 3.5 released September 28, 2010 contained a webkit javascript engine with bindings to Cairo. (Cairo openGL had to be in the PS3 at that time)
5) GT5 delayed till after PS3 Firmware 3.5 for it's Playview car database.
/xx/ quote:
Edit: Assuming Playview is designed to use webkit tools there must be some way of telling the platform OS how to process the Playview file. Further we don't know how Playview works, is it a file that is javascript or XML based?
In any case Playview probably has an extension that tells the OS how to use it. Does this also require DRM support? Part of PS Suite certification?
PS3 gets "worlds First" 4K by 2K visual Magazine
PlayView being updated for 4K resolutions, 3D support and in-game browsing.
GT5 used Playview for their Car Database.
How is it done? With technology developed for web browsers, Probably Cairo that was necessary for the PS3 webkit port.) Webkit supports the same technology to be resolution independent. The libraries ported into the PS3 with webkit add functionality.
Edit: I've been using the term SVG and incorrectly applying it. Cairo is known primarily as a SVG library but it also contains Pixman. The combination of the two allows scale-able (zooming) for vector and pixel based graphics as well as the digital manipulation of pictures and video when bound with gstreamer. This is an important point as this is the primary reason Sony is including it in the PS3 OS.
So now we are seeing a 4K by 2K video standard being supported by the PS3, it's picture support with zooming (3-D coming) at this time (its said to work with movies) but why that standard.....my guess has been that the PS4 will have 4k by 2k media rendering. Sony has been up-converting all their movies to 4K and filming new ones in that standard.
Playview allows lower resolution displays to access higher resolution content, this includes pictures and movies, by supporting zooming. This is similar to how the PS3 displays pictures which can be zoomed into with one joystick with the other allowing travel in the picture.
It is nothing new, the iTablet and iPhone has had a zooming interface as do Android platforms as everything on them uses SVG graphics. In my opinion the PS3 is going to support SVG in the same way, all PS3 routines will be rewritten to use Cairo for rendering as has already been done with all 2011 Sony networked products like TVs and Blu-Ray players. Two things then become possible, Zooming and international Fonts with Cairo-Pango.
The PS3 is the KEY for Sony to introduce 3-D high resolution pictures and Video to consumers as well as how they can display those formats when using Sony cameras. Edit: at this time I don't think it supports 4K video.
OK, so I just killed part of my argument above in message 554 <grin>.
Playview is also being discussed in NeoGAF @ http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=435890
Edit: And it has not been confirmed that Cairo is being used for Playview. I assume it is as it's capable of doing so and is the only SVG library that we know is in the PS3. I say library because my understanding is that OpenGL does the work.
There are multiple chains of logic supporting Sony using Cairo rather than custom code. The biggest is that they will want Playview media usable on multiple platforms and Cairo is a cross platform library usable on any platform with OpenGL and also on Windows and other backends.
Cairo contains Skia code (Android) and all Webkit browsers support a common SVG standard which, using the same logic, Playview probably uses the webkit SVG library which is supported by Cairo in the PS3.
Something similar at a website http://memorabilia.hardrock.com/ It's just SVG and hyperlinking, at this site totally supported in a browser with SVG. So from functionality it appears that Cairo is being used to support Playview in the PS3. Again from Sony, the Playview library can be called and used by a game as well as webkit and webkit support libraries which includes Cairo.
If Playview is using a webkit SVG standard then Playview would use the SVG library supporting webkit on a platform. For Android, the Skia compiled library of openGL calls, for the PS3 and Vita, the Cairo library of compiled openGL calls.
Looking at functionality, Playview also has to know how to display fonts, pictures, Movies and music also 3-D. That requires multiple libraries of considerable size. I would guess it's a certainty that the webkit support libraries, which have to support all the above for webkit, are being used for/by Playview.
1) Sony started work on the GTKwebkit April 2010
2) Sony applied for a trademark for "Playview" (date on article is June 2010)
3) Showed a working Playview at CEDEC Sept 4, 2010.
4) PS3 Firmware 3.5 released September 28, 2010 contained a webkit javascript engine with bindings to Cairo. (Cairo openGL had to be in the PS3 at that time)
5) GT5 delayed till after PS3 Firmware 3.5 for it's Playview car database.
/xx/ quote:
Now seriously, I know it was a bit of a stretch from my part, and I'll change my previous post to reflect this, but from the convenience standpoint of the Sony Group, it makes sense.
The SCEI Software Platform Development Dept., advancement called by them High-Resolution Image Enlargement Technology (高画質画像拡大技術
consists in tree hierarchies with different and variable in size (down to 256x256 px) image tiles consisting in Scalable Vector Graphic representations, the archive data stores information of each image tile position in regards to what is being visualized on-screen. As jeff_rigby pointed, OpenGL back-end compliant Cairo SVG main branch libraries are incorporated into the PS3 platform, so it would be a simple step to use them. Of course, this is all speculation based in approximations (functionality), but what is more interesting is the wider picture that some information shows.
Sony Electronics Inc. (SEI) own Sony Developer Network had a, now undisclosed, initiative called Sonys Networked Application Platform (SNAP) as means to impulse a new framework with the objective of development of applications for different devices, namely (and this is important) those devices from the Networked Products & Services Group and backed by Sony Network Entertainment Inc. (SNEI). A section of the now missing website precisely talked about focus on visual approach of the applications:
http://fireballed.org/linked/2010/11/24/snap/
This where it gets interesting, as some of the latest Sony Electronics Inc., products already use Pando + Cairo, in the internationalization with dynamic text (i18n-text) for example (http://old.nabble.com/Pango-License-td30466635.html), and for future applications also supported by Sony Network Entertainment Inc., but... where does the PS3 system falls into all of this? Well, Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA) recently transferred the management of all online services, that obviously includes the PlayStation Network, to Sony Network Entertainment Inc. (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...America_Taking_Over_SCEAs_Online_Services.php). That means they are preparing the integration of all their backed products into the same network, and for a simple integration you need cross-platform applications and services to use in all of them, and that is why the SNAP Developer Program work and Cairo SVG "easier" assimilation for different back-ends and subsequently different products grants them an advantage in porting, generating in a simple way connectivity and synergies. As Mr. Hirai said, this "will drive vision, strategy, and execution for network services across the entire Sony group".
As PlayView for Games its only the first step for said technology, and different contents not exclusively related to a gaming platform, like digital versions of the PLUP SERIES (プルアップ シリーズ magazines, are going to be distributed in the future as well, it would be a logical step for them to make it available to the rest of Sony Network Entertainment Inc., supported devices through the future general PlayStation Network (or supposedly Sony Network) and Store, right?
The SCEI Software Platform Development Dept., advancement called by them High-Resolution Image Enlargement Technology (高画質画像拡大技術
consists in tree hierarchies with different and variable in size (down to 256x256 px) image tiles consisting in Scalable Vector Graphic representations, the archive data stores information of each image tile position in regards to what is being visualized on-screen. As jeff_rigby pointed, OpenGL back-end compliant Cairo SVG main branch libraries are incorporated into the PS3 platform, so it would be a simple step to use them. Of course, this is all speculation based in approximations (functionality), but what is more interesting is the wider picture that some information shows.Sony Electronics Inc. (SEI) own Sony Developer Network had a, now undisclosed, initiative called Sonys Networked Application Platform (SNAP) as means to impulse a new framework with the objective of development of applications for different devices, namely (and this is important) those devices from the Networked Products & Services Group and backed by Sony Network Entertainment Inc. (SNEI). A section of the now missing website precisely talked about focus on visual approach of the applications:
http://fireballed.org/linked/2010/11/24/snap/
This where it gets interesting, as some of the latest Sony Electronics Inc., products already use Pando + Cairo, in the internationalization with dynamic text (i18n-text) for example (http://old.nabble.com/Pango-License-td30466635.html), and for future applications also supported by Sony Network Entertainment Inc., but... where does the PS3 system falls into all of this? Well, Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA) recently transferred the management of all online services, that obviously includes the PlayStation Network, to Sony Network Entertainment Inc. (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...America_Taking_Over_SCEAs_Online_Services.php). That means they are preparing the integration of all their backed products into the same network, and for a simple integration you need cross-platform applications and services to use in all of them, and that is why the SNAP Developer Program work and Cairo SVG "easier" assimilation for different back-ends and subsequently different products grants them an advantage in porting, generating in a simple way connectivity and synergies. As Mr. Hirai said, this "will drive vision, strategy, and execution for network services across the entire Sony group".
As PlayView for Games its only the first step for said technology, and different contents not exclusively related to a gaming platform, like digital versions of the PLUP SERIES (プルアップ シリーズ
magazines, are going to be distributed in the future as well, it would be a logical step for them to make it available to the rest of Sony Network Entertainment Inc., supported devices through the future general PlayStation Network (or supposedly Sony Network) and Store, right?
In any case Playview probably has an extension that tells the OS how to use it. Does this also require DRM support? Part of PS Suite certification?
I just got a PS3 yesterday, it's a slim model, so I cannot use Linux AFAIK. Is there anything currectly I can do to upgrade the existing browser or use another one? Sorry for the stupid question but a.) I haven't read this thread and b.) I know almost nothing about the PS3 features other than the hardware it uses (CPU, GPU, RAM, Blu-ray, HDD, etc.). Really want to know if there's anything I can get now or in the near future as far as web browsers. Thanks for any reply.
Off-topic: I now own, for the first time, all three current-generation consoles, Xbox 360, Wii and now PS3. I have a 3DS too. Sadly, my PSP was stolen last year in Miami, so I'll just wait for Vita to arrive.
Anyway, back on topic: can someone run down for me what, if anything, was done to the PS3 browser? I don't have the time to read this whole thread. Much appreciated.
Anyway, back on topic: can someone run down for me what, if anything, was done to the PS3 browser? I don't have the time to read this whole thread. Much appreciated.
Sony's working on a port of webkit (the underlying browser engine that Chrome and Safari use) for the PS3. You can go here to download and look at the source: http://snei-opensource.com/webkit/webkit-releases/webkit-11.02.03-ga52edd9/ It's safe to say that'll be a huge improvement over the current Netfront browser; with HTML5 support we'll be able to view HD youtube videos without having to go through a proxy site, view gaf reliably without having to go through the mobile phone version, and generally be much better.
Looks like the last build was from back in February, so hopefully Sony will release it soon. Until then, we're stuck with the Netfront browser.
Looks like the last build was from back in February, so hopefully Sony will release it soon. Until then, we're stuck with the Netfront browser.
Sony quietly testing PSN Store revamp
First use of webkit for the Store? Database support with fields?
Other interesting information:
http://www.indianvideogamer.com/features/round-6-interview-with-atindriya-bose-playstation-india/
No price cut from a Sony regional head but it's being predicted by news blogs. Michael Pachter has predicted big drops in sales for every major format. A price drop is needed and expected. If both of these posts are true then something else must happen to spark interest and get Sales figures growing. Releasing new features helps and both PS3 and Xbox360 are getting ecosystem updates this year. In addition Sony should release it's GTKwebkit for the PS3 and Vita. If it's impressive enough to generate press it should help sales.
Apparently Sony did not buy the Toshiba Cell plant to just make camera components.
First use of webkit for the Store? Database support with fields?
Other interesting information:
http://www.indianvideogamer.com/features/round-6-interview-with-atindriya-bose-playstation-india/
No price cut from a Sony regional head but it's being predicted by news blogs. Michael Pachter has predicted big drops in sales for every major format. A price drop is needed and expected. If both of these posts are true then something else must happen to spark interest and get Sales figures growing. Releasing new features helps and both PS3 and Xbox360 are getting ecosystem updates this year. In addition Sony should release it's GTKwebkit for the PS3 and Vita. If it's impressive enough to generate press it should help sales.
Apparently Sony did not buy the Toshiba Cell plant to just make camera components.
From the PS3 GTK webkit libraries, Geoclue libraries can only be used by a handheld so the assumption is that the same GTKwebkit will be in the Vita. From Sony the Vita and PS3 are going to share libraries and toolkits. From functionality the Vita has features nearly identical with the OLPC sugar interface and that uses a GTKwebkit.
I too wonder when the browser will be released. So far Sony has been implementing, with the exception of IPTV using the webkit javascript engine and possibly Portal 2 using parts of the webkit core, features that use only the libraries that support webkit.
A webkit browser has several processes and webkit2 even more. Both webkit and webkit2 use the same javascript engine and webcore and those are not changing. Webkit2 which is nearing stable release might be the reason for Sony delaying the Browser release.
http://blog.kov.eti.br/?p=110
2010 Feb 28th 2011 April 2011 June 17th, 2011 http://blogs.igalia.com/alex/category/webkit2/ Jun 24, 2011 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.audio.pulseaudio.general/10215
IF I'm correct and pulse audio is coming to the PS3 to support echo cancellation and redirection for the headphones we already know require 3.70, the above quote indicates it's not ready as of the above date. Pulse Audio could be used to support cross game chat.
So less than 10 days ago GTKwebkit has a stable release. In light of that I don't think the PS3 port is being purposely delayed by Sony. Multiple projects for the support programs used by Gnome Mobile to support GTKwebkit are nearing or have completion dates this Sept-October 2011. Sony is apparently jumping into the webkit development cycle in the later stages. When was probably influenced by the WebGL standards release last March.
August 6 2011 This is the next information release. August 18th 2011 Gamescom
September 6th 2011 Stereo Headphones = PulseAudio (speculation)
September 15th 2011 TGS Tokyo Game Show
September 28th 2011 Gnome 3.2 release which has latest GTK 3.2 & Gnome mobile libraries with a totally integrated browser desktop. Firefox no longer included by default, it will include a GTKwebkit.
A webkit browser has several processes and webkit2 even more. Both webkit and webkit2 use the same javascript engine and webcore and those are not changing. Webkit2 which is nearing stable release might be the reason for Sony delaying the Browser release.
http://blog.kov.eti.br/?p=110
2010 Feb 28th 2011 April 2011 June 17th, 2011 http://blogs.igalia.com/alex/category/webkit2/ Jun 24, 2011 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.audio.pulseaudio.general/10215
Following on from the previous Pulse Audio release a little over six months ago, I'm very happy to announce the next (and likely last) instalment in the 0.9.x series. [Next release should be 1.0 and stable-ready for release.]
As before, the 0.9.23 release is primarily a bugfix release. It also includes a preview of module-echo-cancel. Originally this was intended to gather feedback on it's progress rather than a recommendation for general use. As time has slipped somewhat on the release, numerous improvements have subsequently been made in the master branch, so we do not recommend using it in 0.9.23 to any great extent - feel free to have a play tho'
As before, the 0.9.23 release is primarily a bugfix release. It also includes a preview of module-echo-cancel. Originally this was intended to gather feedback on it's progress rather than a recommendation for general use. As time has slipped somewhat on the release, numerous improvements have subsequently been made in the master branch, so we do not recommend using it in 0.9.23 to any great extent - feel free to have a play tho'
So less than 10 days ago GTKwebkit has a stable release. In light of that I don't think the PS3 port is being purposely delayed by Sony. Multiple projects for the support programs used by Gnome Mobile to support GTKwebkit are nearing or have completion dates this Sept-October 2011. Sony is apparently jumping into the webkit development cycle in the later stages. When was probably influenced by the WebGL standards release last March.
August 6 2011 This is the next information release. August 18th 2011 Gamescom
September 6th 2011 Stereo Headphones = PulseAudio (speculation)
September 15th 2011 TGS Tokyo Game Show
September 28th 2011 Gnome 3.2 release which has latest GTK 3.2 & Gnome mobile libraries with a totally integrated browser desktop. Firefox no longer included by default, it will include a GTKwebkit.
There are issues with this thread recognized by a moderator in that it is taking too long for Sony to release a webkit port so this thread becomes history. The Thread name changed recently to reflect this.
We are getting new readers asking for "easy" answers as the thread is long and I've been long winded on occasion <grin> sorry. Much of the thread is my posting information I find and then developing speculation based on the information. Some of the logical trains of thought can be wrong and I generally discover this or have it pointed out by others in this thread.
I propose a message be edited with links and descriptions of key points in this thread, those that I feel have become supported by enough information to be taken seriously. That way one message can provide answers and information that interests readers.
I've been doing this for my messages but of equal importance is a conservative voice. Androvsky is one of the posters that has been acknowledged as a knowledgeable and conservative poster in this thread as well as one who found and posted the second PS3 webkit disclosure. He generally serves as a foil and as a conservative voice in responding to my posts.
The following posts by both androvsky and myself have been linked to by news blogs and as such might be better suited to get the information out there.
jeff_rigby post here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27697080&postcount=410
androvsky post http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27012121&postcount=260
Many of the guesses and speculation in this thread are being made independently by others in other blogs as well. If any reader would post links to those posts and they add a better argument or more information I'll add then to my index.
Thank you
Note to moderator: I have no way to create a new thread nor do I, at this time want to. Is there some way, if you agree that an index to this thread would prove valuable, to provide a link to this page in the header?
CozMick: As the OP of this thread what do you think?
We are getting new readers asking for "easy" answers as the thread is long and I've been long winded on occasion <grin> sorry. Much of the thread is my posting information I find and then developing speculation based on the information. Some of the logical trains of thought can be wrong and I generally discover this or have it pointed out by others in this thread.
I propose a message be edited with links and descriptions of key points in this thread, those that I feel have become supported by enough information to be taken seriously. That way one message can provide answers and information that interests readers.
I've been doing this for my messages but of equal importance is a conservative voice. Androvsky is one of the posters that has been acknowledged as a knowledgeable and conservative poster in this thread as well as one who found and posted the second PS3 webkit disclosure. He generally serves as a foil and as a conservative voice in responding to my posts.
The following posts by both androvsky and myself have been linked to by news blogs and as such might be better suited to get the information out there.
jeff_rigby post here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27697080&postcount=410
androvsky post http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27012121&postcount=260
Many of the guesses and speculation in this thread are being made independently by others in other blogs as well. If any reader would post links to those posts and they add a better argument or more information I'll add then to my index.
Thank you
Note to moderator: I have no way to create a new thread nor do I, at this time want to. Is there some way, if you agree that an index to this thread would prove valuable, to provide a link to this page in the header?
CozMick: As the OP of this thread what do you think?
The Sony US forums and http://us.playstation.com/ have been updated.
I'm now noticing, perhaps because I'm looking for it, that the http://us.playstation.com/ site has images that peg my office PC CPU performance to 100% and stutters. It's not downloading as there is no network activity and only about 120megs is being used by the site. My CPU temp goes up from 100 to 105 degrees F.
Interesting, the PS3 accessing the same site has a slightly different display with stationary pictures, Sony had to provide a different website setup for the PS3.
I'm now noticing, perhaps because I'm looking for it, that the http://us.playstation.com/ site has images that peg my office PC CPU performance to 100% and stutters. It's not downloading as there is no network activity and only about 120megs is being used by the site. My CPU temp goes up from 100 to 105 degrees F.
Interesting, the PS3 accessing the same site has a slightly different display with stationary pictures, Sony had to provide a different website setup for the PS3.
Wow, 4 posts on NeoGAF since 4/11 and 0 posts on Sony forums since 2008 and you respond to mine. I'm flattered, you are correct, it is Flash..... Sorry, Flash functionality was one of the standards set by W3C for HTML5 and SVG.
That's three "got me" for the last two months....at least that I know of <grin>.
That's three "got me" for the last two months....at least that I know of <grin>.
Heh, do you research the posting habits of everyone who replies to your posts? As you've worked out I've only recently had the account activated here. Another 'incorrect assumption' on the Sony forum though... ;-)
I didn't realise support for Flash functionality was specifically in the W3C standards given the need for the plugin... do you mean general plugin support or do you mean Flash like functionality is supported through the use of the HTML5/CSS etc? Sorry I'm a bit confused there!
Personally I would have expected Sony to move away from the use of Flash if they were intending on displaying their web sites identically on both a PC and the PS3, particularly as they presumably would have to rely on Adobe building them a decent Flash plugin for the PS3... I would have expected them to move to alternatives which they have more control over.
As you've worked out I've only recently had the account activated here. Another 'incorrect assumption' on the Sony forum though... ;-)I didn't realise support for Flash functionality was specifically in the W3C standards given the need for the plugin... do you mean general plugin support or do you mean Flash like functionality is supported through the use of the HTML5/CSS etc? Sorry I'm a bit confused there!
Personally I would have expected Sony to move away from the use of Flash if they were intending on displaying their web sites identically on both a PC and the PS3, particularly as they presumably would have to rely on Adobe building them a decent Flash plugin for the PS3... I would have expected them to move to alternatives which they have more control over.
If it were a better browser there are some decent sites out there for streaming content. That and things like BBC iPlayer/4OD for us in the UK, would probably be do-able in HD. BBC iPlayer/4OD run pretty well on the Ps3 just now, but it could be better!
Waiting for this to fall into place and jeff to go, BAM, I'm Jack Tretton bitches! So far it's almost like a viral to build up people's hopes for an awesome FW update haha (not discrediting your findings by saying that jeff).
Waiting for this to fall into place and jeff to go, BAM, I'm Jack Tretton bitches! So far it's almost like a viral to build up people's hopes for an awesome FW update haha (not discrediting your findings by saying that jeff).
andshrew said:
Heh, do you research the posting habits of everyone who replies to your posts? As you've worked out I've only recently had the account activated here. Another 'incorrect assumption' on the Sony forum though... ;-)
I didn't realise support for Flash functionality was specifically in the W3C standards given the need for the plugin... do you mean general plugin support or do you mean Flash like functionality is supported through the use of the HTML5/CSS etc? Sorry I'm a bit confused there!
Personally I would have expected Sony to move away from the use of Flash if they were intending on displaying their web sites identically on both a PC and the PS3, particularly as they presumably would have to rely on Adobe building them a decent Flash plugin for the PS3... I would have expected them to move to alternatives which they have more control over.
As you've worked out I've only recently had the account activated here. Another 'incorrect assumption' on the Sony forum though... ;-) I didn't realise support for Flash functionality was specifically in the W3C standards given the need for the plugin... do you mean general plugin support or do you mean Flash like functionality is supported through the use of the HTML5/CSS etc? Sorry I'm a bit confused there!
Personally I would have expected Sony to move away from the use of Flash if they were intending on displaying their web sites identically on both a PC and the PS3, particularly as they presumably would have to rely on Adobe building them a decent Flash plugin for the PS3... I would have expected them to move to alternatives which they have more control over.
"Personally I would have expected Sony to move away from the use of Flash" Me too. It's troubling that they have a Flash Banner. They could have Flash games in the short term moving to WebGL as those are developed. Edit: My best guess is that Sony is porting PS1 classic games Via C to HTML5 and will be offering them as PS Suite and possibly on-line multi-player versions. Adobe has a Flash to HTML5 converter and in the WebGL demo pages I've read about C to HTML5 javascript conversion tools.
If it has WebGL (that actually performs well), I would love to develop games for it.
Their userbase is probably made of 99% IE mongrels. Heck, even IE9 only barely supports a slither of the Web Platform.
If they're like every other media company on the planet, they also likely have a few Flash guys who have been doing this kind of work forever, and a lot more frontend developers who are terrible, awful at their jobs and couldn't possibly pull that banner off with web standards.
Their userbase is probably made of 99% IE mongrels. Heck, even IE9 only barely supports a slither of the Web Platform.
If they're like every other media company on the planet, they also likely have a few Flash guys who have been doing this kind of work forever, and a lot more frontend developers who are terrible, awful at their jobs and couldn't possibly pull that banner off with web standards.
Okay, no speculation on PS3 web browser but have you tried www.YouTube.com/tv ? I use it rather frequently to teach my son how to speak a foreign language. Works great so far.
Crackle.com is kinda nice too although the selection is limited.
General web browsing sucks although Web apps like Hulu, Vudu and NetFlix work very well.
Crackle.com is kinda nice too although the selection is limited.
General web browsing sucks although Web apps like Hulu, Vudu and NetFlix work very well.
......because they are using a modern webkit javascript engine.
Netflix on release was using QTwebkit (21 meg) with cairoFB (unaccelerated PPU). With PS3 firmware 3.56 the Netflix application dropped from 21 megs to 18 megs (don't know what that was) and with one of the last two releases dropped from 18 to 16 megs and is now using the PS3 cairoGL SVG (hardware accelerated SPU-RSX) library for rendering. Unless they have fixed it, the menus now scroll so fast they get ahead of the album art fills. QTwebkit's javascript engine uses Cairo for rendering as does the javascript engine in GTK+webkit.
Hulu is using the PS3 webkit javascript engine with CairoGL and the Marlin/gstreamer ultraviolet DRM. (GL is either OpenGL or PSGL, I don't think it matters to us.)
Remember the discussion on the similarity in menus between Netflix and Mubi. Both could be using the hildon library for forms, the PS3 uses the hildon libs. It's one of the webkit options.
So far Sony has been implementing, with the exception of IPTV using the webkit javascript engine and possibly Portal 2 using parts of the webkit core, features that use only the libraries that support webkit; that includes Glib. I suspect that only webcore, javascript engine and support libraries are in the PS3 at this time. The other parts of a browser and webkit (API) can and probably will change and are going to be updated. This includes GTK+ which is a support library and is going to be updated to GTK3.2 by September 28th this year.
I'd guess that PlayStation Suite (you saw part of this first) is a suite of Programs to support (sell & play) multiple current and new media coming out of Sony Entertainment. Playview is an example of this and it appears that webkit support libraries are going to be leveraged in multiple platforms to support this new suite of programs.
Sony 2011 networked TVs and Blu-ray players have an Opera browser but also contain Gstreamer, Cairo and a javascript engine. The opera browser can take advantage of gstreamer but not cairo or the second javascript engine. There are multiple uses for Cairo but the javascript engine can only be used to support applications. That begs the question as to whether Playview is a native application or javascript ( XML). If the same Playview application/file is usable on multiple platforms then it's probably a javascript ( XML) application. If this is the case then Sony is using a model something like Android or webkit where the critical performance parts of applications are native language while non critical parts are cross platform interpreted language. Webkit makes this possible on the PS3 but the Sony 2011 Networked platforms don't have webkit installed (only javascript engine and support libraries). Why; probably timing. Again, the webkit javascript engine is done and is not getting major changes while webkit API is still evolving to fully support webkit 2 and a few new features.
All the above speculation is nothing new and was obvious 2 years ago when looking at Android or Webkit block diagrams. In the past I've posted them and speculated on the above but that only generated not possible comments or why are you posting these diagrams.
If you look at the Marlin Gstreamer DRM PDF, it already supports Qriocity ultraviolet DRM for Apple, PC and Linux. What is not in there is that Gstreamer has been ported to Android which means that the support is there for a Marlin DRM gstreamer player. Gstreamer for Android Gstreamer is multi-media support. Notice all three above examples; video editing, DLNA Support and Video conferencing are in the PS3. But the versions in the PS3 are old and I believe do not use gstreamer. They will be replaced.
So a certified Playstation Suite platform will have the developer including support for games and media with programs provided by Sony using resources provided by webkit support libraries and supplemented in some cases by Sony. This might explain windows media libraries found in the PS3 webkit disclosure. A webkit port by Sony to the PC is probably required (WebGL games are not supported by IE in any case and would need a supporting webkit browser).
Qriocity is probably a priority for Sony which requires the support libraries not the browser, browser is a lower priority. Only when webGL games are available would a new browser be a priority for Sony. Until then it's only benefit to Sony would be in consumer perceived added value.
Netflix on release was using QTwebkit (21 meg) with cairoFB (unaccelerated PPU). With PS3 firmware 3.56 the Netflix application dropped from 21 megs to 18 megs (don't know what that was) and with one of the last two releases dropped from 18 to 16 megs and is now using the PS3 cairoGL SVG (hardware accelerated SPU-RSX) library for rendering. Unless they have fixed it, the menus now scroll so fast they get ahead of the album art fills. QTwebkit's javascript engine uses Cairo for rendering as does the javascript engine in GTK+webkit.
Hulu is using the PS3 webkit javascript engine with CairoGL and the Marlin/gstreamer ultraviolet DRM. (GL is either OpenGL or PSGL, I don't think it matters to us.)
Remember the discussion on the similarity in menus between Netflix and Mubi. Both could be using the hildon library for forms, the PS3 uses the hildon libs. It's one of the webkit options.
So far Sony has been implementing, with the exception of IPTV using the webkit javascript engine and possibly Portal 2 using parts of the webkit core, features that use only the libraries that support webkit; that includes Glib. I suspect that only webcore, javascript engine and support libraries are in the PS3 at this time. The other parts of a browser and webkit (API) can and probably will change and are going to be updated. This includes GTK+ which is a support library and is going to be updated to GTK3.2 by September 28th this year.
I'd guess that PlayStation Suite (you saw part of this first) is a suite of Programs to support (sell & play) multiple current and new media coming out of Sony Entertainment. Playview is an example of this and it appears that webkit support libraries are going to be leveraged in multiple platforms to support this new suite of programs.
Sony 2011 networked TVs and Blu-ray players have an Opera browser but also contain Gstreamer, Cairo and a javascript engine. The opera browser can take advantage of gstreamer but not cairo or the second javascript engine. There are multiple uses for Cairo but the javascript engine can only be used to support applications. That begs the question as to whether Playview is a native application or javascript ( XML). If the same Playview application/file is usable on multiple platforms then it's probably a javascript ( XML) application. If this is the case then Sony is using a model something like Android or webkit where the critical performance parts of applications are native language while non critical parts are cross platform interpreted language. Webkit makes this possible on the PS3 but the Sony 2011 Networked platforms don't have webkit installed (only javascript engine and support libraries). Why; probably timing. Again, the webkit javascript engine is done and is not getting major changes while webkit API is still evolving to fully support webkit 2 and a few new features.
All the above speculation is nothing new and was obvious 2 years ago when looking at Android or Webkit block diagrams. In the past I've posted them and speculated on the above but that only generated not possible comments or why are you posting these diagrams.
If you look at the Marlin Gstreamer DRM PDF, it already supports Qriocity ultraviolet DRM for Apple, PC and Linux. What is not in there is that Gstreamer has been ported to Android which means that the support is there for a Marlin DRM gstreamer player. Gstreamer for Android Gstreamer is multi-media support. Notice all three above examples; video editing, DLNA Support and Video conferencing are in the PS3. But the versions in the PS3 are old and I believe do not use gstreamer. They will be replaced.
So a certified Playstation Suite platform will have the developer including support for games and media with programs provided by Sony using resources provided by webkit support libraries and supplemented in some cases by Sony. This might explain windows media libraries found in the PS3 webkit disclosure. A webkit port by Sony to the PC is probably required (WebGL games are not supported by IE in any case and would need a supporting webkit browser).
Qriocity is probably a priority for Sony which requires the support libraries not the browser, browser is a lower priority. Only when webGL games are available would a new browser be a priority for Sony. Until then it's only benefit to Sony would be in consumer perceived added value.
Animated GIF is part of the Sony webkit test: http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/webkit/webkit-tests/images.html So if we get a browser desktop they will be available just about everywhere. SVG and CSS animations too.
I can't believe this thread is still going. The OP was a stretch, and everything Jeff_Rigby has posted since is a misunderstanding. Getting people's hopes up for nothing.
And you can bet if there ever is a browser upgrade, this guy is going to claim victory despite it having nothing to do with the various links to windowing toolkits he's posted.
And you can bet if there ever is a browser upgrade, this guy is going to claim victory despite it having nothing to do with the various links to windowing toolkits he's posted.
I occasionally use my Wii browser to stream Youtube videos to my TV but the quality is naturally quite rubbish. Having a browser on the PS3 that's doesn't take 5 years to launch a web page would make for a nice upgrade to my lounge room internet video sharing.
Unfortunately it looks like I'm going to get a Wii U before this PS3 upgrade ever comes.
Unfortunately it looks like I'm going to get a Wii U before this PS3 upgrade ever comes.