PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news

seb

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theBishop said:
I can't believe this thread is still going. The OP was a stretch, and everything Jeff_Rigby has posted since is a misunderstanding. Getting people's hopes up for nothing.

And you can bet if there ever is a browser upgrade, this guy is going to claim victory despite it having nothing to do with the various links to windowing toolkits he's posted.
I know right?
I love this thread, at some point it needs to be moved to the community forum ; a tiny community of 1 person.
 

androvsky

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While I agree that jeff_rigby tries way too hard to find connections where there probably aren't any, the webkit browser info is pretty solid.

Sony's posted the source code to the webkit browser port, you can download it now. If anyone has a PS3 devkit you could tell us how far along it is.
http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/pub/webkit/webkit-11.02.03-ga52edd9/

If that's not enough, Sony also posted a job listing.
http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/jobs/webkit-engineer.txt
Job Summary: The Sony Network Entertainment Senior Software Engineer-WebKit will join a dynamic team of experienced engineers developing WebKit and related open source software for the Playstation3, Sony Android devices, and other Sony consumer electronics products.
Everything past that, the GTK, Cairo, Pango, Telepathy stuff is definitely speculation. Some of it is grounded in the fact that they're used in the webkit port, but there's not a lot of evidence any of it will be used elsewhere.


And yes, I can see Sony putting a bunch of work into porting a webkit browser then deciding to ditch the project when it's nearly finished, it certainly wouldn't be the first time. But the fact is they are working on it.


please stop bumping this stupid thread unless there is concrete proof of a Browser update. Geez.
The thread title got fixed, it now specifies there's no concrete news. ;) It's like the Starhawk thread, how long did it say "no news, don't bother clicking"?
 

Ashes

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Bumping this thread for the people who keep complaining about concrete info in a speculation thread. The mods changed the title for a reason yah? Bumping complaints are now just noise and ironic.

Edit: Some of us like jeff's speculation, and androvsky's replies. And they are both pretty civil with each other, so I personally kinda like all that stuff...
 

Valkyr Junkie

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FWIW, last night Sony sent out a survey related to some of their network applications (PlayMemories, Filmy, etc). It looks like they're trying to expand their integration into social media services, so I wonder if these upgrades are related to that. There were no questions about web browsing in the survey.
 
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LOL @ Conspiracy theory.

Breaking News: Companies want to adapt the most stable web browsers for their particular device so they can topple iPhone's decent (though lackluster) browser, and they're doing it by trying to add features like Flash and HTML5 to it. More news at 11.
 

Utako

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It would be amazing if Sony put out a Chrome competitor on Windows/Mac/Linux, in addition to putting it on the PS3&4.

The more good browsers, the better.
 

zomgbbqftw

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Utako said:
It would be amazing if Sony put out a Chrome competitor on Windows/Mac/Linux, in addition to putting it on the PS3&4.

The more good browsers, the better.
Could be the basis of the PS Store redesign we've been hearing about, if Sony rolled it out like the Chrome web store then it would be easy to push cross-platform with some games playable everywhere via webkit.
 

funkystudent

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I remember hearing back when LBP.me was announced that sony where looking at creating a web site for PSN stuff like they have on the 360. (buy stuff on the web and it is added to your download list on the ps3)

Anyone look at what Kaz had for breakfast and guess from that if this is happening?

With the PSN store redesign coming in 4.0 (probably) I guess that would be a good time to have such a feature.
 

gillty

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Utako said:
It would be amazing if Sony put out a Chrome competitor on Windows/Mac/Linux, in addition to putting it on the PS3&4.

The more good browsers, the better.
Sounds like an awful idea, Sony makes terrible software. Furthermore, I don't need any rootkits on my system. Just stick to webkit on your own systems Sony.
 

pharmboy044

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funkystudent said:
I remember hearing back when LBP.me was announced that sony where looking at creating a web site for PSN stuff like they have on the 360. (buy stuff on the web and it is added to your download list on the ps3)
The LBP.me site is awesome. I really hope Sony is looking into implementing that into their Playstation site.
 

patsu

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Valkyr Junkie said:
FWIW, last night Sony sent out a survey related to some of their network applications (PlayMemories, Filmy, etc). It looks like they're trying to expand their integration into social media services, so I wonder if these upgrades are related to that. There were no questions about web browsing in the survey.
Can you post the questions ?

And what is PlayMemories ?
 

jeff_rigby

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Valkyr Junkie said:
FWIW, last night Sony sent out a survey related to some of their network applications (PlayMemories, Filmy, etc). It looks like they're trying to expand their integration into social media services, so I wonder if these upgrades are related to that. There were no questions about web browsing in the survey.
Photo Gallery is the picture viewer that was updated to also show Facebook and Picassa 3 on-line pictures.

Playmemories is the picture viewer that can also display 3-D dual angle and Panorama digital images. It has no social media on-line features.

Filmy is a movie player that takes advantage of advanced features in Sony cameras like GPS to index films by location or other criteria. It has no on-line features.

I'd guess that they might get some on-line social media features. This does not require webkit, Photo Gallery didn't though it might be easier to implement now that the PS3 has more tools to support this.

Edit: Rewrites of current applications is one of my speculations necessary to support the PS3 moving to SVG. While doing so it makes sense to add on-line social support, integrating functionality and using the GTK toolkit and other webkit libraries to reduce the size of the application.
 

Valkyr Junkie

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jeff_rigby said:
Photo Gallery is the picture viewer that was updated to also show Facebook and Picassa 3 on-line pictures.

Playmemories is the picture viewer that can also display 3-D dual angle and Panorama digital images. It has no social media on-line features.

Filmy is a movie player that takes advantage of advanced features in Sony cameras like GPS to index films by location or other criteria. It has no on-line features.

I'd guess that they might get some on-line social media features. This does not require webkit, Photo Gallery didn't though it might be easier to implement now that the PS3 has more tools to support this.
There was zero focus on the Photo Gallery app in the survey. I would assume that means they're planning on rolling all of its functionality into PlayMemories to make one centralized "picture" application, especially since that has a branded name as opposed to a generic one, and we know how much Sony likes to have interesting names for everything. Actually, one of the questions on the survey is if you would like to see PlayMemories and Filmy merged into one.

patsu said:
Can you post the questions ?

And what is PlayMemories ?
Sorry, it was actually a fairly lengthy survey, and I can't go in now that I've completed it. Basically it was asking if you were aware of "X", followed by a list of all of the various XMB apps and services. Then for anything you checked, it asked you specific questions about how pleased you were with various aspects of the app, and then they asked for what features you would like to see added to them. Judging from the list of choices, there's a lot of new features they have considered on the drawing board. I made a point of reinforcing how important I thought geotagged image support was (I mean they support geotagged videos in Filmy for the love of God). Hopefully someone else reading this thread hasn't answered the survey yet, so they can screencap everything.
 

funkystudent

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pharmboy044 said:
The LBP.me site is awesome. I really hope Sony is looking into implementing that into their Playstation site.
yeah I wouldnt be shocked if they do do a site that it is basically a re designed LBP.me


heck didnt the current PSN Store start its life as the singestar store?
 

patsu

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Valkyr Junkie said:
There was zero focus on the Photo Gallery app in the survey. I would assume that means they're planning on rolling all of its functionality into PlayMemories to make one centralized "picture" application, especially since that has a branded name as opposed to a generic one, and we know how much Sony likes to have interesting names for everything. Actually, one of the questions on the survey is if you would like to see PlayMemories and Filmy merged into one.
They should merge and enhance PlayMemories, Photo Gallery, Filmy, and EyeCreate. They should also integrate them with playstation.com and the XMB Chatroom. In addition, they should port Vita's social tools to PS3.

Sorry, it was actually a fairly lengthy survey, and I can't go in now that I've completed it. Basically it was asking if you were aware of "X", followed by a list of all of the various XMB apps and services. Then for anything you checked, it asked you specific questions about how pleased you were with various aspects of the app, and then they asked for what features you would like to see added to them. Judging from the list of choices, there's a lot of new features they have considered on the drawing board. I made a point of reinforcing how important I thought geotagged image support was (I mean they support geotagged videos in Filmy for the love of God). Hopefully someone else reading this thread hasn't answered the survey yet, so they can screencap everything.
Well, they sent a survey earlier and after a few months, we get PS Plus discounts and a too-simplistic cloud save. That's it ? Everything else was no show, and there was practically zero integration.
 

jeff_rigby

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Valkyr Junkie said:
There was zero focus on the Photo Gallery app in the survey. I would assume that means they're planning on rolling all of its functionality into PlayMemories to make one centralized "picture" application, especially since that has a branded name as opposed to a generic one, and we know how much Sony likes to have interesting names for everything. Actually, one of the questions on the survey is if you would like to see PlayMemories and Filmy merged into one.

Sorry, it was actually a fairly lengthy survey, and I can't go in now that I've completed it. Basically it was asking if you were aware of "X", followed by a list of all of the various XMB apps and services. Then for anything you checked, it asked you specific questions about how pleased you were with various aspects of the app, and then they asked for what features you would like to see added to them. Judging from the list of choices, there's a lot of new features they have considered on the drawing board. I made a point of reinforcing how important I thought geotagged image support was (I mean they support geotagged videos in Filmy for the love of God). Hopefully someone else reading this thread hasn't answered the survey yet, so they can screencap everything.
Now how would they merge Playmemories under the XMB Picture Icon and Filmy under the XMB Movie Icon into one application??????????????

The XMB is going to change! And that is speculation based on the above.

Anyone disagree as to the implications in the survey question?

Rewrites of current applications and XMB is one of my speculations necessary to support the PS3 moving to Cairo SVG and International fonts. While doing so it makes sense to add on-line social support, integrating functionality and using the GTK toolkit and other webkit libraries to reduce the size of the application.

And a browser desktop is the next logical step. The Vita is using the same toolkit (from Sony) and is sharing libraries with the PS3. I suspect Patsu will get his wish and Vita Social net features will make their way into the PS3.
 

androvsky

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Now how would they merge Playmemories under the XMB Picture Icon and Filmy under the XMB Movie Icon into one application??????????????

The XMB is going to change! And that is speculation based on the above.

Anyone disagree as to the implications in the survey question?

Rewrites of current applications and XMB is one of my speculations necessary to support the PS3 moving to SVG. While doing so it makes sense to add on-line social support, integrating functionality and using the GTK toolkit and other webkit libraries to reduce the size of the application.

And a browser desktop is the next logical step.
Well, a major XMB overhaul is one possibility.

Another is that the same icon under the photo and video categories open the same application, but maybe a different view, which is exactly how the various PS Store icons work now.

While I wouldn't be surprised if Sony does a major overhaul for the inevitable price drop, I don't think a couple of errant apps from Sony's camera division is necessarily a hint.
 

Utako

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zomgbbqftw said:
Could be the basis of the PS Store redesign we've been hearing about, if Sony rolled it out like the Chrome web store then it would be easy to push cross-platform with some games playable everywhere via webkit.
Fieldrunners is coming to the Chrome Store (and Angry Birds already has, as you are probably aware), so I'd say that is one indication where the trend is going to go, and I think this would be a great move on Sony's part.

jeff_rigby said:
PS3 moving to SVG
No offense, but do you know what SVG is? As someone who writes SVG, I'm having trouble understanding what this phrase means.
 

jeff_rigby

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Utako said:
Fieldrunners is coming to the Chrome Store (and Angry Birds already has, as you are probably aware), so I'd say that is one indication where the trend is going to go, and I think this would be a great move on Sony's part.

No offense, but do you know what SVG is? As someone who writes SVG, I'm having trouble understanding what this phrase means.
Yes I do and it's Scaleable Vector Graphics which requires Cairo & Cairo-Pango for International fonts and Layout engine. An example of this is at http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27026928&postcount=271 The GTK toolkit uses Cairo as does webkit for all rendering.

In simpler terms, I believe the PS3 is moving to the same Font and zooming interface that both Android and iOS uses.
 

jeff_rigby

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androvsky said:
Well, a major XMB overhaul is one possibility.

Another is that the same icon under the photo and video categories open the same application, but maybe a different view, which is exactly how the various PS Store icons work now.

While I wouldn't be surprised if Sony does a major overhaul for the inevitable price drop, I don't think a couple of errant apps from Sony's camera division is necessarily a hint.
A major overhaul for a price drop? Don't understand this. Major overhaul instead of a price drop, is that what you meant?

Edit: Rereading Valkyr Junkie's post and it looks like its unlikely to be wrong. That adds more weight to the argument that the XMB is being rewritten.

Androvsky: To settle some of the critical comments, is what I am speculating possible given the GTKwebkit port and dependencies like Glib? This is a separate argument from will Sony do as I speculate. My cites to show what is possible given these GTK webkit tools on Gnome Mobile should have already answered this question for everyone but many are not reading the thread.

Something like systemd (Linux) and launchd (Apple) is the only OS tool not in the GTKwebkit dependencies and needed to easily Swap programs to the hard disk for "Live" on the PS3. If used it will replace sysvinit, maybe one of the PS3 OS routines. It will not be in the Vita.

Then, do you believe Sony will follow Linux/POSIX OS standards to allow for easier ports of webkit and related applications to the PS3? There is no down side, Glib will be included in the PS3 & Vita pretty much unmodified (it's required for GTKwebkit). Until called it occupies very little memory, just enough for the OS service loop (same as libc, in fact there is some duplication of libc functionality in Glib). Most Glib routines are not loaded in memory or serviced in the loop until called so it adds very little overhead to PS3 game OS or multi-media OS. On the Vita Glib will be in memory but most routines will not be serviced in the loop until called.

Glib contains the minimal telepathy and LibIce (industry standard for connect negotiations). Once connection has been negotiated LibIce unloads from memory but min telepathy is resident for negotiating data channels for collaborative games or detecting a request for chat.

Your argument, I believe, is that the PS3 OS already contains routines to manage collaboration between PSP and PS3 and Sony will rewrite what would normally be used in PS3 to PSP to work on the Vita rather than use the existing Glib in Vita. It makes more sense to rewrite the PS3 OS to use the routines in Glib.

Those routines in Glib on the Vita are identical to Glib on the PS3 and are now a Standard used by GNU Linux. You see how illogical, one or the other would need to be rewritten, why go with older non-standard routines when you can rewrite the PS3 OS to comply with newer standards.

Sony is recently about cross platform compatibility and they will want OS and applications they use to be portable to a PS4 or other platforms which would have industry standard Glib routines. It's not just about PS3 and Vita. Gstreamer requires Glib and I believe Marlin gstreamer ultraviolet DRM players will be used for DRM on multiple platforms by Sony.
 

jeff_rigby

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theBishop said:
I can't believe this thread is still going. The OP was a stretch, and everything Jeff_Rigby has posted since is a misunderstanding. Getting people's hopes up for nothing.

And you can bet if there ever is a browser upgrade, this guy is going to claim victory despite it having nothing to do with the various links to windowing toolkits he's posted.
1) The OP is not a stretch, it has now five confirming Sony disclosures. B, C & E absolutely confirm it's coming.
a) Nov 2010 first webkit disclosure for the webkit javascript engine
b) March 2011 second webkit disclosure with Chrome changes (Chrome is the interface we see)
c) Webkit tests including forms which are part of the PS3 browser not webkit
d) Sony job listing for porting webkit related applications to Sony platforms
e) Patent filed by Sony for WebGL games

2) androvsky discovered the second GTKwebkit disclosure so if anyone is juvenile enough to claim victory for that it would be androvsky.

3) how can you determine if what I posted is a misunderstanding if you don't read the thread?

4) Getting peoples hopes up for nothing is overstating. The speculation that Sony will use the tools provided by webkit and support libraries is obvious and is supported by the Sony job posting. Again it's obvious and claiming credit for pointing out the obvious is not very rewarding.

The only points for which I might accept credit are:

1) Finding the Gnome Mobile and OLPC links which have functionality the same as in Vita
2) the Collabora post that stated that they were sent a PS3 development kit
3) the Marlin Gstreamer ultraviolet DRM PDF file stating that the PS3 uses Marlin for DRM
4) the Sony Snap Developer site (now deactivated)

The rest is an attempt to point out what can be done with the Gnome mobile (GTKwebkit) tools. In so doing I have stated multiple times it's up to Sony how much they port from the Gnome 3.2 (browser) desktop shell.

In a Email from someone at Sony I can relate the following: we are not getting another Open platform Linux to replace the Linux Other OS. I expect webkit related ports to be "simplified" and deliberately crippled to protect the closed platform nature of the PS3. The someone has been very careful about what he has disclosed, He has only offered information that is in the disclosures and has cautioned against overoptimism in what's coming.

While the above would tend to support androvsky, I suspect what's coming is greater than androvsky states but less than I hope for.
 

androvsky

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Androvsky: To settle some of the critical comments, is what I am speculating possible given the GTKwebkit port and dependencies like Glib? This is a separate argument from will Sony do as I speculate. My cites to show what is possible given these GTK webkit tools on Gnome Mobile should have already answered this question for everyone but many are not reading the thread.
To get this straight, you're asking if a total XMB rewrite is possible with GTKwebkit and Glib?
Yes!
Is a total XMB rewrite possible using QTwebkit and QT? Yes!
Webkit and Enlightenment? Yes!
GTK and Mozilla? Yup.
Home? As in Playstation Home? Yes, they could replace the XMB with that. And there was a group in Sony that tried according to some rumors.

You've been putting a lot of effort into discovering what Sony could do with various libraries and toolkits on the PS3. The answer is pretty much whatever they want, given the limitations of the hardware (mostly RAM). The big thing with me is that answer doesn't change if they're using GTK+, QT, Cairo, Enlightenment, or Sony's own home-grown libraries.

So when we look at the webkit disclosure and see that it's using GT+K to handle some basic interface functions, all I conclude from it is that the webkit browser is using GTK+. GTK+'s main reason for being is to present a consistent windowing interface for both the user and programmer across multiple platforms. Much of what it does isn't really needed on the PS3, since most applications will running full-screen, one at a time, and thus don't need to deal with the complexities of a windowing environment. GTK+ is overkill for Sony's meager needs for most of these applications.

Obviously Sony already has made a bunch of applications for the PS3, so they've got the basic libraries covered. And chances are, knowing Sony, those libraries are largely incompatible with everything else Sony makes. We know they've got a big push to unify their software development across hardware. But considering Sony execs won't even confirm or deny that the Playstation Suite is coming to PS3, I'm not going to assume anything when Sony itself probably doesn't know where it's going.


A major overhaul for a price drop? Don't understand this. Major overhaul instead of a price drop, is that what you meant?
Remember how there was a major rebranding to go along with the Slim launch? It was something extra to make the brand as well as the system feel fresher and to get people talking. I'd expect something fairly interesting in the next firmware around the same time the price drop hits for the same reasons. Now that I think about it, Sony's OS people are probably busy with Vita, so whatever the PS3 gets will either be something they've been sitting on for a while, or less likely, some early cross-platform stuff.
 

jeff_rigby

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androvsky said:
To get this straight, you're asking if a total XMB rewrite is possible with GTKwebkit and Glib?
Yes!
Is a total XMB rewrite possible using QTwebkit and QT? Yes!
Webkit and Enlightenment? Yes!
GTK and Mozilla? Yup.
Home? As in Playstation Home? Yes, they could replace the XMB with that. And there was a group in Sony that tried according to some rumors.

You've been putting a lot of effort into discovering what Sony could do with various libraries and toolkits on the PS3. The answer is pretty much whatever they want, given the limitations of the hardware (mostly RAM). The big thing with me is that answer doesn't change if they're using GTK+, QT, Cairo, Enlightenment, or Sony's own home-grown libraries.

So when we look at the webkit disclosure and see that it's using GT+K to handle some basic interface functions, all I conclude from it is that the webkit browser is using GTK+. GTK+'s main reason for being is to present a consistent windowing interface for both the user and programmer across multiple platforms. Much of what it does isn't really needed on the PS3, since most applications will running full-screen, one at a time, and thus don't need to deal with the complexities of a windowing environment. GTK+ is overkill for Sony's meager needs for most of these applications.
So yes Sony can do as I speculated. But will they, you assume no for several reasons.

1) You assume it doesn't mean much that a Standard-easy-popular-cross platform-toolkit for building applications or porting existing GTK toolkit applications to multiple Sony platforms was chosen. And that the GTK toolkit is Cairo SVG based means nothing. Edit: Obviously you do know some of the advantages as you stated them above. But you again assume that the big advantages also seen in Gnome Mobile, Android and iOS in using a SVG based toolkit will not make their way into the PS3 OS. Then there is gstreamer, telepathy, and the host of OS utilities in Glib.

androvsky said:
Obviously Sony already has made a bunch of applications for the PS3, so they've got the basic libraries covered. And chances are, knowing Sony, those libraries are largely incompatible with everything else Sony makes. We know they've got a big push to unify their software development across hardware.
How many is a bunch of applications; I count 6 prior to webkit and support libraries and 6 is not a bunch compared to the 10s of thousands of iOS and Android apps.

Massa and you pointed out the PS3 is using (Wiki confirmed) FreeBSD so it didn't have to legally disclose (no GPL or LGPL). If choices for libraries have as a primary criteria that they don't need to be disclosed it severely limits Sony choices to much older or Sony clean room code. For example take the current Qriocity audio application code from 1999 and severely bloated in size (121 megs). Hulu a video application is 2 megs because it uses webkit and Gstreamer DRM. That is possible because Sony is using 2010 webkit and support library code but they had to disclose it.

All current (pre-webkit) PS3 applications are severely bloated and designed to run one at a time. They have a modular "plugin" design to allow for easy replacement or changes without impacting other PS3 programs. While it allows for relatively easy upgrades and limits bug issues it's horribly inefficient. I don't know if this supports your argument or mine.

In any case, it will not be possible to support background music with the current Qriocity, or many other requested features unless Sony modifies the PS3 OS. This in part explains why it's taking so long for this ecosystem/browser upgrade to be released. The survey questions a couple of messages above confirm a rewrite of applications and possibly the XMB.

2) Sony for the first time has started disclosing what's in the PS3 and is using code that is so new it's not finished. You don't think that says something?
androvsky said:
But considering Sony execs won't even confirm or deny that the Playstation Suite is coming to PS3, I'm not going to assume anything when Sony itself probably doesn't know where it's going.
Playstation Suite is coming to the PS3, that was stated then retracted. This I expect is typical Sony in that they don't release information. What is Playstation Suite? Is it coming to the PS3? That should be an obvious yes as Playstation Suite is a suite of applications to sell Sony games and media as well as certification that a platform will run Sony Games. Anyone think that is not going to happen for the PS3?

3) "when Sony it'self doesn't know where it's going"; a recurring theme in many posts and very inaccurate. I too felt this way as Sony does everything without telling us why, no timetable etc. This makes us feel like they don't know what they are doing. I have posted multiple examples of Sony patents like the 2009 WebGL patent and others that show that Sony does know where it's going. There is Collabora getting a PS3 dev kit in 2007.....In light of that you have to upgrade your opinion of Sony management. They do know where they are going. If Playview is using webkit support libraries, it's showing at cebit in 2009 (Edit: The name and features were patented in 2010 but an infinite picture database and gigabyte VERY high resolution picture viewing application was shown at cebit in 2009.) means that Sony started work on the PS3 webkit support libraries prior to 2009. That Sony understood the implications in webkit being on multiple platforms early on.

Edit: Marlin Gstreamer Ultraviolet DRM was released in 2009 too. This is an important point in that the PDF mentions Sony as one of the Founding members of the Marlin Group and that the PS3 uses Marlin DRM. So sometime before the 2009 release of the PDF Sony had decided on a browser, either Firefox, Opera or webkit, all of which use Gstreamer. That Gstreamer would be a part of the PS3 OS.

Two patents related to browsers and the IPTV DRM player in 2009!

Webkit and support libraries on multiple platforms is a HUGE development! It is going to change the whole industry! Gnome 3.2 browser desktop Shell is a reflection of what is going to happen as is Android and iOS. Cross platform support for applications is now Open Source.

androvsky said:
Remember how there was a major rebranding to go along with the Slim launch? It was something extra to make the brand as well as the system feel fresher and to get people talking. I'd expect something fairly interesting in the next firmware around the same time the price drop hits for the same reasons.
Again, you could be right but since there has been no news of a die size reduction that could allow a hardware refresh to reduce the price and the Indian Sony rep stating that there wouldn't be one for Gamescom, I don't expect a price drop but I do expect Firmware updates to, as you state above; "to get people talking" and add consumer perceived value to the PS3.

Edit:
Indian Sony rep said:
"Well, if there was a price drop coming at Gamescom, I'd know. There is, however, a new PS3 chassis being discussed. A slightly different design, but from what I can tell, not much difference in functionality." Rumors of a PS3 price drop have been swirling around, particularly for the upcoming Cologne event.
A new PS3 chassis design + the Digitimes PS4 rumor; This might be a PS3 hardware refresh @ 32nm rather than a PS4. Current PS3 is Humpty-Dumpty cracked and can not be un-hacked. Releasing a new PS3 with more memory and USB3 or dedicated Kinect like interface will have high end current owners purchasing a new PS3 with new encryption keys. The 20 million first year sales figure would support this as would the PS3 OS rewrite I've been speculating.

EDIT: The changes to the PS3 OS could allow it to do everything a redesigned PS3 with more memory could do just slightly slower (using Hard Disk swap) or with less detailed shader resolution (similar to the difference between PS3 and Vita games of the same title). This would be a requirement as Sony has said they will not provide any features in an upgrade that would obsolete older PS3s.

Some of the rumors of the hardware in the PS4 have .28nm die as necessary to reduce power and heat. Foundries have announced low yealds at that die size and have delayed timetables for many coming CPU SOC and GPUs. This might impact the Vita also. So a PS4 release at the end of this year is VERY unlikely but a release of a 32nm PS3 is possible. The PS3 cell is risc and RSX is simple enough that they might have transistor densities that would allow yealds at 28nm to be economical.
Digitimes said:
Sony to start production of PS4 at end of 2011, say Taiwan makers

Sony will have Taiwan-based partners begin production of PlayStation 4 (PS4) featuring body movement-based control like Kinect at the end of 2011 for launch in 2012, according to Taiwan-based component makers.

Foxconn and Pegatron Technology, assemblers of PS3, will undertake assembly of PS4 as well, the sources pointed out. The planned shipment volume of PS4 in 2012 is at least 20 million units, the sources indicated.
androvsky said:
Now that I think about it, Sony's OS people are probably busy with Vita, so whatever the PS3 gets will either be something they've been sitting on for a while, or less likely, some early cross-platform stuff.
I'd guess that PS3 Glib and openGl support for Cairo were done by Sony Japan, PS3 webkit and support libraries by Sony US (Geoff and team) but the Sony Vita port is being done in the UK. The reasons for this guess is that PS3 Glib and OpenGL for Cairo would have to be optimized for the Cell which is best done by the same Software engineers that ported and optimized the PS3 kernel for the Cell processor.

There are only three Sony Linux guys and I've read Geoff's name and seen his picture at EU webkit hackfests as early as April 2010, his name is also on the webkit disclosures. I've seen two other names associated with the webkit port to the PS3 and all three have Sony US email addresses.

Parts of the Vita port are very similar to the Sugar interface from OLPC (from functionality) which was written by an employee of Redhat in one day. I don't think that it's going to be difficult to write the Vita OS given the core is generic Gnome Mobile eLinux and was already ported to Arm processors.

Summary: Your comments show a comprehensive grasp of the issues involved, probably greater than my own. But I feel they are colored by an impression that Sony does not know what it's doing. That in my opinion is in error and is probably the only difference in our understanding of what's coming. You could still be correct though, it depends on Sony <grin>.
 

DonMigs85

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Rather than just a new browser I wish they would also updated their Windows Media Audio codec. Anything encoded with WMA10 plays silent on the PS3.
 

Bomber Bob

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DonMigs85 said:
Rather than just a new browser I wish they would also updated their Windows Media Audio codec. Anything encoded with WMA10 plays silent on the PS3.

dude wma is dead
 

Mithos

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DonMigs85 said:
Rather than just a new browser I wish they would also updated their Windows Media Audio codec. Anything encoded with WMA10 plays silent on the PS3.
Sign me up on that, AND some other codecs need to be updated as well.
 

jeff_rigby

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Mithos said:
Sign me up on that, AND some other codecs need to be updated as well.
For what player?

The Blu-ray, DVD, DLNA 1.0, XMB System and IPTV players are totally separate programs. There is no evidence that they use the same codecs. For DRM both Blu-ray and DVD applications are total from source drive to HDMI HDCP sink applications bypassing the PS3 OS for the most part. DLNA and XMB system may use the same codecs but IPTV is using a gstreamer core and a gstreamer binding to FFmpeg (Speculation based on seeing ffmpeg in the PS3 firmware 3.55 files list). Other gstreamer codecs coming or are already in the PS3.

The discussion above if I'm right would have upgraded to DLNA 1.5, XMB system and IPTV using the same gstreamer core. Blu-ray and DVD player would remain the same. Benefits we might see, background music available from DLNA, System Hard disk and from Pandora or Qriocity for example everywhere. All other benefits will be Sony's in reduced complexity, size and ease in updating the PS3.

Gstreamer Codecs for Arm processors and size data. This gives and idea of what's available and the size of codecs. Some have Microsoft copyright which could explain them not being available.
 

Deadly Cyclone

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Browser updated yet?

Damn you all for getting me excited every time I see this thread bumped. Is it too much to ask to be able to stream a youtube video in a quality above 240p? Or to be able to watch an episode of GameTrailers TV from the site?
 

Kung Fu Grip

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Deadly Cyclone said:
Browser updated yet?

Damn you all for getting me excited every time I see this thread bumped. Is it too much to ask to be able to stream a youtube video in a quality above 240p? Or to be able to watch an episode of GameTrailers TV from the site?
We were able to do that before. When you clicked on the windows media player tab it would stream the video fullscreen in HD. Now none of the videos on GT work on the PS3.
 

androvsky

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Deadly Cyclone said:
Browser updated yet?

Damn you all for getting me excited every time I see this thread bumped. Is it too much to ask to be able to stream a youtube video in a quality above 240p? Or to be able to watch an episode of GameTrailers TV from the site?
http://www.ps3youtube.com/

Lets you download youtube videos in whatever resolution is available, up to 1080p, and you can watch them as they download. Also has a better streaming player built-in. I believe there's a GameTrailers script for PlayOn too, but that'd require buying PlayOn. That's at least handy for watching free Hulu on the PS3.
 

jeff_rigby

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Speculation based on rumor: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28081678&postcount=1

While earlier reports pegged the new handheld as sporting 512MB of RAM, the newest information suggests that Sony has cut that number in half to 256MB. In order to compensate for the loss, the company reduced the size of the OS footprint in memory. 26MB of the 256 is high-speed RAM that can be used for certain tasks that require quicker access to system memory. The 128MB of graphics memory are still in place; however the planned 16Gigabyte of internal flash memory have been removed in favor of cheaper external storage.
Of the 256meg in the Vita, 26 meg is reserved for routines often needed. The Vita has a Zooming interface with functionality VERY similar to the OLPC Sugar Interface which also used eLinux and the Gnome Mobile libraries.

I would guess that the reserved 26meg would contain GTKwebkit and support libraries or since the size of the OS footprint in memory has been reduced, only the routines commonly used are in this reserved memory.

So something around 26+megs to support a browser desktop?

Edit:

Video of Vita Interface showing:

Live

Popup Chat notification from bottom with Icon and go directly to chat when touching the Popup user icon.

Browser is available from multiple windows as is the store. Cross game chat is available while playing a game (maybe only in "Live") or while using the browser.

The above would seem to indicate that webkit and support libraries are always loaded as is a low level program to detect a request for chat (telepathy?)

Multiple ways to accomplish this using a 26 meg OS cache. Cache in this case is misleading as the compiled to native language routines in webkit and support libraries are not copied to another memory location rather pointers to the routine are passed and it remains in the same memory location except for the instructions being executed in the CPU & CPU cache.

1)It may be a Python (JIT interpreted language) script in which case it would be very similar to Android functionally and an Android OS core is about 27 megs (from memory).

2) If compiled native language it would quickly require more space as it would not use some of the routines in the 26 meg cache but provide machine language copies of them over and over. This is a more rigid harder to move from routine to routine method but faster.

Comparing advantages and disadvantages in Python vs. Native language is similar to Andoid vs. native language
 

androvsky

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jeff_rigby said:
Speculation based on rumor: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28081678&postcount=1



Of the 256meg in the Vita, 26 meg is reserved for routines often needed. The Vita has a Zooming interface with functionality VERY similar to the OLPC Sugar Interface which also used eLinux and the Gnome Mobile libraries.

I would guess that the reserved 26meg would contain GTKwebkit and support libraries or since the size of the OS footprint in memory has been reduced, only the routines commonly used are in this reserved memory.

So something around 26+megs to support a browser desktop?
That's more descriptive of an L2 or L3 cache than anything... and there's still issues with it. If it's really high-speed RAM different from the 256, that means Sony is putting a 230 MB RAM chip in the Vita? Do those exist? If it's not separate, then the rumor could simply be referring to the OS reserved space; if so, it's a miracle Sony managed to squeeze in the OS into such a small space given how much more Vita is running in the background than the PS3.

As for the browser desktop, webkit's a bit of a notorious memory hog. I'm not sure it could display a blank page in under 26 MB. Honestly, if you want a flexible desktop, HTML is about the worst way of doing it. XML with native widgets would be best, or if you desperately need cross-platform support without recompiling (which is silly considering how different these platforms are), you could do XML with Java applications. HTML5 + Javascript is the method that wastes the most CPU and memory that I can think of.
 

madmaxx350

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androvsky said:
That's more descriptive of an L2 or L3 cache than anything... and there's still issues with it. If it's really high-speed RAM different from the 256, that means Sony is putting a 230 MB RAM chip in the Vita? Do those exist? If it's not separate, then the rumor could simply be referring to the OS reserved space; if so, it's a miracle Sony managed to squeeze in the OS into such a small space given how much more Vita is running in the background than the PS3.

As for the browser desktop, webkit's a bit of a notorious memory hog. I'm not sure it could display a blank page in under 26 MB. Honestly, if you want a flexible desktop, HTML is about the worst way of doing it. XML with native widgets would be best, or if you desperately need cross-platform support without recompiling (which is silly considering how different these platforms are), you could do XML with Java applications. HTML5 + Javascript is the method that wastes the most CPU and memory that I can think of.
just shows you how badly optimized PS3's OS is
 

androvsky

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madmaxx350 said:
just shows you how badly optimized PS3's OS is
Yeah, there is that. Remember when the memory usage requirements for stuff like the onscreen keyboard for the PS3 leaked, and it was in the range of several megabytes? I remember using the Netfront browser in-game required a minimum of 40 MB, and that's for a mobile browser optimized for memory usage.

Still, it'd be a good sign that Sony's got memory usage under control... assuming the rumor is true.
 

patsu

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PS3 has different design goals, including partitioning the system for security reasons. I reckon these requirements will incur additional overheads compared to a more "regular" OS.
 

androvsky

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patsu said:
PS3 has different design goals, including partitioning the system for security reasons. I reckon these requirements will incur additional overheads compared to a more "regular" OS.
That's true, the hypervisor did use up a little memory. I think I'm going to stand by my point that a webkit desktop + OS isn't going to fit in 26 MB though. :)
 

jeff_rigby

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androvsky said:
HTML is about the worst way of doing it. XML with native widgets would be best,
Turns out you are correct, the PS3 UI uses a XML script with the working parts native language. Cairo supports rendering XML so not a big issue changing the PS3 to render with Cairo, integrating Pango with native PS3 fonts may be.
androvsky said:
That's true, the hypervisor did use up a little memory. I think I'm going to stand by my point that a webkit desktop + OS isn't going to fit in 26 MB though. :)
Slight misunderstanding as to what a browser desktop does/is. It's a Zooming desktop (Cairo SVG) that can easily access the web using the GTK toolkit and webkit support libraries = a browser desktop. Picky and hard to differentiate. Webkit support libraries contain XML and you can use XML and Cairo script commands in the same file. I kinda grey out here.

Libraries listed in PS3 disclosure

$(CAIRO_LIBS) \ Cairo SVG library [almost no changes to the Cairo DIFF file means Sony is using OpenGL.]

+ $(LIBXML_LIBS) \
+ $(LIBXSLT_LIBS) \
+ $(PANGO_LIBS) \...................International Fonts Cairo-pango = SVG international fonts eventually to be part of Freetype above.


Example showing power and ease of use in webkit hybrid applications with a Sony job posting that shows Sony understands this applies to multiple platforms including the PS3.

26 meg is probably too low for the PS3...wasn't there some mention several years ago of reserving 40 megs.....

Anyway I didn't mean to imply a total PS3 rewrite using only the Gnome Mobile tools or GTKwebkit. I just thought the 26 meg number for the Vita might indicate how much Sony might have pared down the essential parts of an operating system.

androvsky said:
Yeah, there is that. Remember when the memory usage requirements for stuff like the onscreen keyboard for the PS3 leaked, and it was in the range of several megabytes?
Draw it with Cairo SVG instead of bitmapped and it might only occupy a few 100K not 2 megs and have a wider range of supporting fonts.


madmaxx350 said:
just shows you how badly optimized PS3's OS is
To be fair, it's a 5+ year old OS before webkit. Compared only to Andorid, iOS, OLPC, Memo, Vita and other handhelds with webkit that are less than 2 years old with an OS designed to be efficient, it suffers.

IF a PS4 is several years away, Sony will, as stated, every year provide new features for the PS3 to keep it fresh. It will be easier for them to do this with changes to the OS to use features that are already in the other handheld OSs.
 

theBishop

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jeff_rigby said:
Slight misunderstanding as to what a browser desktop does/is. It's a Zooming desktop (Cairo SVG) that can easily access the web using the GTK toolkit and webkit support libraries = a browser desktop. Picky and hard to differentiate. Webkit support libraries contain XML and you can use XML and Cairo script commands in the same file. I kinda grey out here.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27680295&postcount=405

26 meg is probably too low for the PS3...wasn't there some mention several years ago of reserving 40 megs.....

Anyway I didn't mean to imply a total PS3 rewrite using only the Gnome Mobile tools or GTKwebkit. I just thought the 26 meg number for the Vita might indicate how much Sony might have pared down the essential parts of an operating system.
You've made the only misunderstanding here, and it isn't slight.

How a person can take a fairly sensible and unsexy job listing and spin long-ass post after post about it is beyond me.

It says right there in the posting that it's not simply a PS3 position. We know Sony's got their hands deep in Androidland with the PS Suite project... and it just so happens that Webkit powers the Android web browser. SHOCKING!

Where are you pulling all this ridiculous crap about "Zooming Desktops"? And even if they are using Cairo for something, that doesn't necessitate GTK or Gnome Mobile Tools or any other random GUI toolkit your Googlemachine turns up.

Here's a wikipedia page about graphic libraries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Graphics_libraries

Maybe you'd like to make separate threads for each of them. I hear Sony's porting them all to their new 12MB Zooming_Multitouch_Mobile_SVG_Browsing_Experience++.

You found two useful things: A Sony job listing looking for webkit experience, and some evidence of Sony devs checking in changes to Webkit's GIT repo. That's the extent of it. Every other post I've seen of yours is the worst kind of stab-in-the-dark speculation. But you link to technical-looking websites so most people don't know the difference.
 

patsu

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androvsky said:
That's true, the hypervisor did use up a little memory. I think I'm going to stand by my point that a webkit desktop + OS isn't going to fit in 26 MB though. :)
They will need a VM system for webkit. If so, they will need a more sophistcated memory manager such that the web browser cannot interfere with the games. Perhaps not a full subset but I am curious how they implement the Java runtime on Blu-ray side.

Also, I remember many small devices remove WebKit features so that it can run well in their environment. So WebKit is different for different devices.

That said, I think a native environment probably runs better at this point.
 

patsu

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jeff_rigby said:
Aren't they exposing openGL which with a little work would allow the Hackers to port that to Other OS Linux?
As far as I know, that was a loophole that was closed pretty quickly.
 

jeff_rigby

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patsu said:
As far as I know, that was a loophole that was closed pretty quickly.
Libraries listed in PS3 disclosure

$(CAIRO_LIBS) \ Cairo SVG library [almost no changes to the Cairo DIFF file means Sony is using OpenGL.]

OpenGL being used in the PS3 application side to support CairoGL might expose the code to hackers. Code would be identical to that needed by CairoGL on Other OS Linux. They had to use CairoFB (Frame buffer) for other OS Linux which did not have hardware acceleration.
 

patsu

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I think there was already an OpenGL API at the beginning. The game developers didn't use it because it's too slow.
 

jeff_rigby

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Sony is also into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RVU_Alliance

Last year the Xbox implemented this and had the ability to play media from a cablebox. RVUA is an extension to DLNA to, for example, allow Cable Boxes to be controlled and media to play from a cablebox to any network connected & capable TV, Blu-ray, Game Console and personal Media device.

The RVU Alliance (RVUA) is a standards body created to manage the RVU protocol standard as used by manufacturers of consumer electronics to allow entertainment devices within the home to share their content with each other across a home network.

The published aims of the RVU Alliance are to expand the use of the RVU Protocol to enable users to:

Receive the same experience at every TV through the same look and feel
Provide access to high-definition programming from any TV in the home
Record and playback high-definition programming from any TV in the home
Access to personal media content (e.g., videos and photos) from any TV in the home
Interact with weather, enhanced sports, and other interactive applications from any TV in the home
Access content available on more devices (including personal media players and PCs)
The RVU protocol (RVU) is an Application Layer protocol, that combines the pre-existing Digital Living Network Alliance (DLNA) standards and a new Remote User Interface (RUI) protocol. The RVU RUI protocol is intended to allow an RVU-enabled client, such as a TV, to receive a pixel-accurate display of the user interface available on an RVU server. This, combined with DLNA's ability to transmit media (video, photos and music) across a home network, allows for the entire user experience of a media server to be transmitted to an RVU client. The protocol is primarily intended to operate over a home network. The RVU protocol has been developed with a focus on passing broadcast video coming from a multichannel video programming distributor through a residential gateway or dedicated media server to other consumer electronic devices in the home. However the protocol has a much broader applications that just this.
More information here. There is DRM and key codes in this so it's not quite as described above.
Device and Service Discovery and Control - UPnP SSDP
Media Management, Distribution, and Control - Digital Living Network AllianceTM (DLNA®), UPnP
Content streaming and media format interoperability - DLNA AV Transport HTTP
Digital content protection - DTCP-IP link protection
Remote User Interface - Low-overhead remote bitmap RUI, including remote control commands and status from client devices to the server
Will the PS3 have support for this? It's up to Sony. All network connected 2011 and later Sony blu-ray, TVs and the PS3 have the ability to do this with firmware updates. For Sony products to get access to RVU servers it would have to demonstrate DRM security, be a closed system and connect using HDMI to a HDCP TV.

http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/dtpc.html And the DRM is supported on the PS3!
Settings > System Settings > Enable DTCP-IP
Enable DTCP-IP
To enable playback of copyright-protected video files that are stored on a media server, you must first connect the PS3™ system to the Internet and perform an authentication procedure. This menu option is displayed only when you have attempted to play content that requires authentication.
From Sony SNAP:
we want your coolest apps to run on SNAP! We want Games, Widgets (weather, news, traffic, etc), remote controls, social apps, media sharing apps, media players, home automation, etc, etc, etc. You name it!

SNAP stands for Sony's Networked Application Platform and is part of an emerging new ecosystem for making downloadable applications available to networked devices like TV’s, Blu-ray Disk players and other Consumer Electronic products
Which seems to indicate that Sony wants their products to have the "Coolest apps".