PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news

jeff_rigby

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patsu said:
They will need a VM system for webkit. If so, they will need a more sophistcated memory manager such that the web browser cannot interfere with the games. Perhaps not a full subset but I am curious how they implement the Java runtime on Blu-ray side.

Also, I remember many small devices remove WebKit features so that it can run well in their environment. So WebKit is different for different devices.

That said, I think a native environment probably runs better at this point.
So something around 26+megs to support a Vita browser UI?

Video of Vita Interface showing:

Live functionality
Popup Chat notification from bottom with Icon and go directly to chat when touching the Popup user icon.
Browser is available from multiple windows as is the store. Cross game chat is available while playing a game (maybe only in "Live") or while using the browser.

The above would seem to indicate that webkit and ?Some? support libraries are always loaded as is a low level program to detect a request for chat (telepathy?)

There are multiple ways to accomplish this using a 26 meg OS cache. Cache in this case is misleading as the compiled to native language routines in webkit and support libraries are not copied to another memory location rather pointers to the routine are passed and it remains in the same memory location except for the instructions being executed in the CPU & CPU cache. It's called Zero Copy.

1)It may be a Python (JIT interpreted language) script in which case it would be very similar to Android functionally and isn't an Android OS core about 27 megs. Android runs a JIT script-like file that calls native language routines when needed for performance. Webkit Javascript (JIT script) does the same for the same reason. The model makes sense and has advantages.

2) If compiled native language it would quickly require more space as it would not use some of the routines in the 26 meg cache but provide machine language copies of them over and over. This is a more rigid harder to move from separate routine to separate routine method (to save memory) but faster. One large machine language program could reuse code but that requires more memory.

You could emulate the method Python uses to call native language routines but why go to the trouble. Only parts of a UI require performance, a JIT script calling native language routines has no performance issues, is easier to use and can be more easily separated into modules for different functions while using the fewest resources (Android model again).

Comparing advantages and disadvantages in Python vs. native language is similar to Andoid vs. native language. A discussion on the best method to use is out of my depth, I only understand the basic features in both. My understanding is that Androids biggest feature is memory efficiency.

Native language runs better but may not be the best choice. OLPC used Python for their OS UI and not because they wanted a cross platform OS. The PiViTI video editor uses Python and my understanding for that choice is because it is easier to use/write, uses fewer resources and is cross platform. A video editor requires a higher performance level than the UI in an OS.

The biggest thing I see is that the Android model is a large part of Gnome Mobile. An effort to use fewer resources has been behind new features since 2008. Xwindows and Matchbox are no longer a part of Gnome Mobile; that functionality has been moved to Glib and GTK resulting in greater performance while using less memory. Notice in this older block diagram of the Gnome Mobile core (need to remove Matchbox and Xwindows) the language bindings considered important; C and Python. The OLPC Sugar interface was written using Python in a day and functionally is identical with Vita Near. OLPC uses GTKwebkit which uses the core Gnome Mobile libraries and I'm certain the Vita does also



Everything I have read and that's hundreds of hours, points out the advantages in using Gnome Mobile/webkit support libraries and Python etc. These advantages are no accident, they are well thought out and have been coming since 2005 (Apple released webkit code) with the majority of the Hackers getting on board in 2007 caused by Alp Tolker of Collabora and the Gstreamer/Cairo webkit.

If as we suspect, PS Suite in large part depends on webkit and cross platform support libraries, Sony understands this and is moving to this model too.

The impression that the desktop would be based on HTML5 is in error, the desktop will support HTML5 but can be native language, or Python script, or Lua or anything Sony wants. But everyone is moving to support webkit and Hybrid webkit applications on the desktop. The XMB will be rewritten to support this (my opinion).

Edit: Currently the PS3 UI is written using XML.

Just looked at the files from PS3 firmware 3.55 again and the XMB UI is written using XML script. The GTK webkit has a library listing for XML which confirms that XML can be rendered with Cairo. Shouldn't be hard to change the current XML renderer to use cairo for rendering. If so, that is not an issue in the time it's taking for release. Edit on edit: The PS3 XMB may be using cairoGL for rendering since Firmware 3.0 (Sept 2009) and XML with Cairo backend.

Possible reasons for delays:

1) Waiting on Gnome & GTK3.2 as well as webkit2.
2) Ecosystem and XMB OS rewrites are extensive
3) Waiting on new applications and a rewrite of older applications.

Rumor is no major announcements at Gamescom. Prepare to be disappointed again.
 

jeff_rigby

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Mozilla aims to play the OS game

Mozilla believes that the web can displace proprietary, single-vendor stacks for application development. To make open web technologies a better basis for future applications on mobile and desktop alike, we need to keep pushing the envelope of the web to include --- and in places exceed --- the capabilities of the competing stacks in question.

We also need a hill to take, in order to scope and focus our efforts. Recently we saw the pdf.js project expose small gaps that needed filling in order for "HTML5" to be a superset of PDF. We want to take a bigger step now, and find the gaps that keep web developers from being able to build web apps that are --- in every way --- the equals of native apps built for the iPhone, Android, and WP7.

To that end, we propose a project we’re calling Boot to Gecko (B2G) to pursue the goal of building a complete, standalone operating system for the open web. It’s going to require work in a number of areas.

New web APIs: build prototype APIs for exposing device and OS capabilities to content (Telephony, SMS, Camera, USB, Bluetooth, NFC, etc.)
Privilege model: making sure that these new capabilities are safely exposed to pages and applications
Booting: prototype a low-level substrate for an Android-compatible device
Applications: choose and port or build apps to prove out and prioritize the power of the system.
"web apps that are --- in every way --- the equals of native apps built for the iPhone, Android, and WP7". I suspect that they are talking about an Android model but using a Javascript JIT engine rather than Android with webkit support libraries; in our case, the GTKwebkit port.
 

jeff_rigby

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BruiserBear said:
A year later and people are still holding out hope the browser is getting a "big upgrade"?
Yup, but there is a difference of opinion as to how much beyond a NEW GTKwebkit browser (not upgraded Netfront) is coming.

WebGL standards just became official March 2011, the final Webkit2 code was just released by Apple (after pressure from the industry) and GTK/Gnome3.2 will be released September 2011. Gnome 3.2 will be the first Linux Browser desktop with GTKwebkit as the default browser. There may be code from webkit2 or Gnome3.2 that will be included in the PS3 upgrade. At this point we are just guessing.

My hope is that Sony is rewriting the PS3 XMB as a browser desktop with features similar to Linux Gnome 3.2 Shell (contact manager, Chat, Calender, Browser, etc). At a minimum I believe the PS3 OS will be rewritten to render with Cairo and will support international fonts with Cairo-Pango.

Others believed strongly a few months ago that the GTKwebkit Sony disclosures meant just a new browser. I believe as time goes by and no browser is announced (overdue for just a browser) as well as somewhat weak evidence of PS3 OS changes, I don't believe they think my speculations are as wild as they once did.

Xbox ecosystem (WP7) upgrades are also delayed till about the same time (Sept-Oct).
 

patsu

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jeff_rigby said:
Sony is also into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RVU_Alliance

Last year the Xbox implemented this and had the ability to play media from a cablebox. RVUA is an extension to DLNA to, for example, allow Cable Boxes to be controlled and media to play from a cablebox to any network connected & capable TV, Blu-ray, Game Console and personal Media device.

More information here. There is DRM and key codes in this so it's not quite as described above. Will the PS3 have support for this? It's up to Sony. All network connected 2011 and later Sony blu-ray, TVs and the PS3 have the ability to do this with firmware updates. For Sony products to get access to RVU servers it would have to demonstrate DRM security, be a closed system and connect using HDMI to a HDCP TV.

From Sony SNAP: Which seems to indicate that Sony wants their products to have the "Coolest apps".
I do not know whether RVU is supported on PS3 (Probably not !). But PlayTV 3.0 was announced a few weeks ago. It supports interfacing with Sony DVRs:
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2011/07/05/torne_update/

Reco x Torne allows Torne users to use the Torne interface to control a Sony Blu-ray recorder that's in another room. Torne can then be used to schedule recordings on the Blu-ray recorder and also view programs that were recorded on the Blu-ray recorder. This feature will be priced ¥1,800. One reason a Torne user may want to use this feature is because Torne only has access to terrestrial digital broadcasts while Sony's Blu-ray recorders have access to satellite and cable.
 

jeff_rigby

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Theonik said:
Gamescom or bust.
Rumor is no major announcements at Gamescom. Prepare to be disappointed again. 4 months ago I said Sept-Oct. Gamescom is a month too early and only slightly more probable than E3. The Tokyo Game Show fits better for a number of reasons. If I am correct, the changes and new features are going to be Revolutionary and State OF The Art. They will want to announce them in Japan.

The Sony India rep talked about 2012 IP which gave me a sinking feeling at perhaps having to wait till next year. But Ultraviolet is being announced as supported in multiple devices for the fall of 2011 so I expect much of the new features to be available for the PS3 at about the same time.
 

patsu

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Personally, I wouldn't expect any major PS3 announcements until after Vita is launched. There _could_ be some server related announcement when R3 is launched, but probably a small thing.
 

jeff_rigby

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patsu said:
I do not know whether RVU is supported on PS3 (Probably not !). But PlayTV 3.0 was announced a few weeks ago. It supports interfacing with Sony DVRs:
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2011/07/05/torne_update/
From the description it looks like the same features described by RVUA. RVU is an extension to DLNA which is supported by the PS3. The PS3 has support for DLNA 1.0+ but not DLNA 1.5 which allows remote control and I expect DLNA 1.5 for the Vita, S1 and S2. It shouldn't be much more effort to add RVU support to DLNA 1.5 when that is rewritten for the PS3 to allow the Vita to remotely control and play on the PS3

Anyway good find on the 20 new features for PlayTV 3.0.
 

Deadstar

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Almost every site supports flash, how can a modern browser not support it? Doesn't make sense to me.
 

patsu

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jeff_rigby said:
From the description it looks like the same features described by RVUA. RVU is an extension to DLNA which is supported by the PS3. The PS3 has support for DLNA 1.0+ but not DLNA 1.5 which allows remote control and I expect DLNA 1.5 for the Vita, S1 and S2. It shouldn't be much more effort to add RVU support to DLNA 1.5 when that is rewritten for the PS3 to allow the Vita to remotely control and play on the PS3
Inconlusive. According to the article, only Sony DVRs are supported. Unless you can find RVU in the Sony DVR specs.


Deadstar said:
Almost every site supports flash, how can a modern browser not support it? Doesn't make sense to me.
The PS3 web browser supports Flash 9.
 

patsu

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Withnail said:
PS3 firmware 3.0 was announced at Gamescom, maybe 4.0 will be as well.

/optimistic
Firmware 3.0 was not very memorable though. There are other releases with more impactful features (e.g., 3D Blu-ray, Move support, ...)
 

jeff_rigby

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patsu said:
Personally, I wouldn't expect any major PS3 announcements until after Vita is launched. There _could_ be some server related announcement when R3 is launched, but probably a small thing.
Wasn't the Vita supposed to be released in October but has been pushed to Jan 2012 because of supply chain issues?

If the above is the case it might decouple the PS3 upgrade news from the Vita release. They still need to generate press for the holiday season 2011 and what's coming is the biggest bang for the buck. Microsoft is supposed to release their ecosystem-WP7 in the fall 2011.

patsu said:
Inconlusive. According to the article, only Sony DVRs are supported. Unless you can find RVU in the Sony DVR specs.
I was not suggesting that Sony already supported RVU, only the Xbox supports this as far as game consoles. It's being tested now and is designed for Thin Clients = low CPU power and resource platforms like Apple TV, Blu-Ray players, Network connected TVs etc. Anything that can support DLNA now and is firmware upgradeable should be able to support RVU. This will be a VERY attractive feature.
 

XOMTOR

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At this late stage of the PS3's lifecycle, I doubt Sony will be making any significant changes to its OS or related software. I'd love to be proven wrong but if a new browser hasn't come along after all these years, I can't see a new one coming in at the 11th hour.

I just hope Sony will get it right with the Vita's media/web/social connectivity capabilities. Aside from its Blu-ray player, I've never been impressed with my PS3's non-gaming attributes.
 

madmaxx350

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XOMTOR said:
At this late stage of the PS3's lifecycle, I doubt Sony will be making any significant changes to its OS or related software. I'd love to be proven wrong but if a new browser hasn't come along after all these years, I can't see a new one coming in at the 11th hour.

I just hope Sony will get it right with the Vita's media/web/social connectivity capabilities. Aside from its Blu-ray player, I've never been impressed with my PS3's non-gaming attributes.
It wouldn't be that surprising if they are setting a framework for PS4 and Vita. Isn't Microsoft doing the same thing with WP7 dashboard?
 

madmaxx350

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Deadstar said:
I was referring to the Vita not supporting flash. Seems like it would if PS3 does.
Vita Browser doesn't? News to me, we haven't even seen it in action let alone heard any info on it , we just know it exists and quite honestly that wouldn't make sense if it didn't ...
 

patsu

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jeff_rigby said:
Wasn't the Vita supposed to be released in October but has been pushed to Jan 2012 because of supply chain issues?

If the above is the case it might decouple the PS3 upgrade news from the Vita release. They still need to generate press for the holiday season 2011 and what's coming is the biggest bang for the buck. Microsoft is supposed to release their ecosystem-WP7 in the fall 2011.
I don't know. But if I were Sony, I would dedicate all resources to develop Vita so that it can be released "comfortably" this year. Then focus on PS3 and Vita integration next year.
 

XOMTOR

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madmaxx350 said:
It wouldn't be that surprising if they are setting a framework for PS4 and Vita. Isn't Microsoft doing the same thing with WP7 dashboard?
Yea you'd think it would be logical; however this is Sony we're talking about here.
 

jeff_rigby

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patsu said:
I do not know whether RVU is supported on PS3 (Probably not !). But PlayTV 3.0 was announced a few weeks ago. It supports interfacing with Sony DVRs:
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2011/07/05/torne_update/
Look closely at the pictures in the article for Torne Version 3.0. Vita style icons in a circle, they look and some of the menus look SVG. The Tweet chat window looks similar to the Vita chat window. Could this be one of the first applications using Cairo, webkit and Hilden Icons?

Watch the video below. Play close attention to the zooming, the Mini web browser in the application, the multiple levels of zoom in images and text. This is an example of what I expect for future PS3 applications using the GTKwebkit tools and Cairo even if this turns out to not be based on that technology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBxAUy1orMM&feature=player_detailpage

Very very fast text and image rendering. Wish they demoed the browser more. Can anyone watching this confirm that the PS3 Netfront browser can't be used in an application like we are seeing in the video?


DirecTV is field testing RVU and will offer remote viewing without DirecTV boxes in October. Looks like many new options exist for new features in October. Samsung is jumping on this so I expect Sony and the rest of the CE industry to do so also.



And we also have AllVid which is essentially RVA but for adopting a standard Menu interface rather than having the DVR serve it.

AllVid is a CableCARD replacement proposed by the U.S. Federal Communications Commission (FCC). The AllVid hardware would act as a universal adapter for all types of pay TV content, delivered through a wide variety of means, including cable TV, satellite TV, VDSL, IPTV, and Internet TV.

The FCC has proposed several design aspects to AllVid while soliciting feedback from interested parties on a final specification before going forward for rulemaking. Major elements of the FCC's AllVid proposal include:

Gateway device capable of decoding six video streams and feeding through a home network to various devices.[3]
Adapter device capable of decoding two video streams and feeding directly to a television or consumer electronics device.[3]
Physical connection using 100BaseTX Ethernet.[3]
Internet Protocol as a communications protocol between the AllVid gateway and end devices.[3]
Encryption and authentication using the DTCP-IP standard used by the Digital Living Network Alliance.[4]
Content ordering and billing for VOD and PPV services may be handled via gateway generated screens but additional options are requested.[4]
Service discovery may use Universal Plug and Play, as suggested by TiVo, but other proposals are invited.[4]
Content encoding is proposed to support multiple codecs to allow devices flexibility in choice of video formats without requiring transcoding by the gateway
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/02/allvid-tech-alliance/
You know there’s going to be a showdown over some communications technology issue when Google, Best Buy, Mitsubishi, Sony, TiVo and two other big companies start a new group with the word “alliance” in it.

Sure enough, the septet has announced that they’ve united to defend the Federal Communications Commission’s new proposal for an “AllVid” standard that would make it easier for consumers to watch both pay television and the video they get from their home broadband network on the same screen.
DTCP-IP required for AllVid or RVU and it's already in the PS3!
Settings > System Settings > Enable DTCP-IP
Enable DTCP-IP on the Playstation
To enable playback of copyright-protected video files that are stored on a media server, you must first connect the PS3™ system to the Internet and perform an authentication procedure. This menu option is displayed only when you have attempted to play content that requires authentication.
 

jeff_rigby

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XOMTOR said:
Yea you'd think it would be logical; however this is Sony we're talking about here.
You haven't been following the thread. Multiple new features have been enabled recently that appear to be using the GTK webkit libraries disclosed by Sony in November 2010 and March 2011. Torne looks like an application totally written with Cairo for rendering and uses webkit for a browser search feature like Google TV.

Check out the video of Torne, notice how fast text and video rendering. Kick-ass accelerated and looks awesome. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBxAUy1orMM&feature=player_detailpage

Androvsky: It's as fast as the XMB and looks like it's using Cairo. Still too early to be positive about this and needs confirming.
 

jeff_rigby

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Rumor: Vita to be released October 28th 2011 October again! And yes, there are reasons the Vita and the new PS3 webkit/Ecosystem have release dates that are at the earliest tied together and at the latest due to Forge issues in making the SOC for the Vita.

Edit: Vita release pushed into 2012 for US and EU but 2011 for Japan, TGS is scheduled for the Sony announcement.

I would guess that means Gamescom could be more PS3 oriented. More new PS3-Vita features demoed. PS3-S1 features demoed, Sony ecosystem outlined?
 

jetsetfluken

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Yeah, torne's UI is very slick and responsive. I actually live in NA and bought the hardware/software for it for experimentation purposes - you think there is no real way to view media on it just because there's no Japanese TV signal? That's what I hear, but who really knows what is possible.
 

jeff_rigby

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jetsetfluken said:
Yeah, torne's UI is very slick and responsive. I actually live in NA and bought the hardware/software for it for experimentation purposes - you think there is no real way to view media on it just because there's no Japanese TV signal? That's what I hear, but who really knows what is possible.
If you have it, I have a couple of questions.

Can you zoom the text in the Torne web page to maximum zoom and look to see if it scales like SVG or bitmap. The Netfront browser is bit-mapped when zooming but the GTKwebkit uses SVG.

You can compare the Netfront browser text to the Torne mini-browser text, it should be obvious. I'm trying to confirm Torne Version 3 is using the PS3 webkit and Cairo SVG.
 

androvsky

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jeff_rigby said:
If you have it, I have a couple of questions.

Can you zoom the text in the Torne web page to maximum zoom and look to see if it scales like SVG or bitmap. The Netfront browser is bit-mapped when zooming but the GTKwebkit uses SVG.

You can compare the Netfront browser text to the Torne mini-browser text, it should be obvious. I'm trying to confirm Torne Version 3 is using the PS3 webkit and Cairo SVG.
I wasn't going to say anything, but you know the video you linked of the browser in Torne was uploaded in March of 2010, right? It's of the original version of Torne. I don't see "browser improvements" listed in the latest version's changelog, either.

Uploaded by erumoaTube on Mar 20, 2010
You can tell when the user switches to the regular Google homepage, it hasn't looked like that in a long time.
 

patsu

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I doubt Tourne 3 is using any advanced web tech. The recording and automation part need to run in parallel with GT5 or U3.
 

jeff_rigby

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androvsky said:
I wasn't going to say anything, but you know the video you linked of the browser in Torne was uploaded in March of 2010, right? It's of the original version of Torne. I don't see "browser improvements" listed in the latest version's changelog, either.

You can tell when the user switches to the regular Google homepage, it hasn't looked like that in a long time.
Edit: Always, always tell me when it appears that I have made a mistake. I can be wrong or previous assumptions have to be reviewed in light of new information. Good observation and thanks.

Regardless, Torne 2.0 looks like it is using SVG even though we assume Cairo was not in the PS3 till September 2010. Sony was using SVG in Demos for Playview in 2009.

Edit: I've suspected the XMB might have been rendering with Cairo since after a firmware update 3.0 the XMB changed having the X&O sparkles in the background. XMB remained the same XML UI and is still using "Pixelmaps" rather than SVG but rendering changed to Cairo rather than the lower level PSGL. "What's New" uses Pixman like functionality which is included in Cairo.  Both "What's New" (manipulation/rotation of trapezoid picture) and the X,O, triangle particle display animation would be easily accomplished with Cairo. While the above observations were too weak to conclude Cairo was in the PS3 with Firmware 3.0, Torne is a further support for Cairo in the PS3 with Firmware 3.0. Sept 1, 2009 Firmware 3.0 revamps the XMB
As many of you predicted, Sony has announced a brand new firmware update for PS3. The big three point zero. Firmware 3.00 will offer support for animated XMB themes and a "What's New" section. At GamesCom, SCEE presented a theme with an animated Sackboy running on a globe. The redesigned XMB makes it easier to see what's updated in the PlayStation Store (both Video and Game content), so some comparisons to Xbox 360's NXE can be made.
Cairo may have been in the PS3 and used by Torne in March 2010.
An undisclosed source has apparently told VG247 that Sony's PlayStation 3 is in for a radical interface overhaul in an upcoming pre-holiday firmware update. PS3 Firmware 3.0 (v2.8 was just released--see pic above) will be "a completely new system," writes the site, citing its source as calling the update "a huge overhaul,"
androvsky; remember when you posted the following, that's an example of Pixman which is included in Cairo. We/I assumed only developer PS3's had it at that time.



Compare Playview written in the UK with Torne written in Japan; massive difference. It's possible Torne got special treatment or was used as a test and development project for Cairo on the PS3.

Edit: This brings up other issues, Eyepet has features that would seem to suggest Gstreamer with Cairo bindings was in the PS3 when Eyepet made it's appearance in the UK. Eyepet didn't make it's way into the US till almost a year later and Playview - Torne are still not in the US. Is there a copyright difference between those countries and the US that delayed or keeps those products out of the US until Sony Legally complies with disclosures? Marlin Gstreamer Ultraviolet DRM was released in 2009 and the PS3 uses Marlin DRM. So was a Gstreamer core in the PS3 with Firmware 3.0 which might have had Cairo too?

What difference when Sony ported Cairo and Gstreamer to the PS3? It shows a long well thought out plan is in play. Many are continuing to underestimate Sony! Sill to come is a change from bitmapped (pixmapped) fonts to SVG with Pango. Further a change in the way the XMB works is I think coming. My impression is that all around the XMB changes to the PS3 OS are occurring that we can not notice. This because I think coming changes to the XMB will be extensive and can not occur piecemeal.

Google maps will have a web address link on the desktop with a custom SVG icon, other sites Sony considers important or who pay for access to the XMB will have similar custom links. With 7 lines of code a window can open and that site can display (Webkit would be used). Stationary widget windows will need to be supported which eliminates the current XMB design.

The next major PS3 Firmware update after 3.0 was 3.5 (Sept 28 2010) with the Javascript engine, 3.5 to 3.66 are webkit and other support libraries and that is a guess. We are not being told what's in each firmware update, we have to guess from features that are turned on.

August 18th 2011 Gamescom

September 6th 2011 Stereo Headphones = PulseAudio (speculation) requires Firmware 3.7

September 15th 2011 TGS Tokyo Game Show


October 28 2011 rumor for Vita release in UK

In the past:

Firmware 3.0 Sept 1, 2009 Cairo? and major overhaul of the XMB
Firmware 3.5 Sept 28, 2010 webkit javascript engine
Firmware 4.0 Sept or October 2011? Webkit browser and ecosystem upgrade turned on

patsu said:
I doubt Tourne 3 is using any advanced web tech. The recording and automation part need to run in parallel with GT5 or U3.
Web tech would not need to be running when recording. That would be a low level Mpeg2TS copy through the USB to the Hard disk (or whatever codec was being used in Japan or Europe).

As to Webkit being in the PS3 in March 2010 it's possible as EA had a version of webkit with a MARCH 2010 creation date for the PS3; Remember. Still need to confirm, I suspect that a Netfront game version is being used not webkit.
 

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Next update should be 3.70

PSLS » News » PS3 / PlayStation 3 » Rumor
PS3 System Software Update v3.70 Prematurely Revealed
05/29/2011 Written by Zak Islam

Another official PlayStation wireless headset for the PlayStation 3 was recently unveiled. When Sony revealed the headphones in their accessory page an intriguing piece of information was added.

Yesterday, Sony unveiled an official headset that is scheduled for a release in a few months. The headset will provide surround sound, and due to this, Sony has (mistakenly) noted down that an unannounced PlayStation 3 system software update, 3.70, on the official accessory page for the headset.

Surround sound on the PS3™ requires system software version 3.70 or later. Surround Sound does not work with Blu-ray Disc movies.

While the description may be misleading due to it stating surround sound for the PS3 (which already has the ability) requires 3.70, it’s not: the firmware is needed to provide surround sound to the headset.

As noted by GX, .01 updates are normally less significant compared to the full next tenths. So, with E3 around the corner, could Sony be preparing an announcement for version 3.70? Could PS3 owners finally see the announcement of cross-game voice chat or possibly more?
The blu-ray player is a from source to sink application bypassing the PS3 OS. With new requirements requiring HDMI only output it's even more so; this is for HDCP. Confirming this is the inability to use the new headphones with blu-ray, I suspect because pulse audio which supports redirection of audio to the USB port for the RF adaptor used with the new stereo headphones will not be enabled for Blu-ray.

Pulse audio will be required to support echo cancellation which is sorely needed for Chat applications. In addition it's possible to support cross game chat using the pulse audio redirection ability and low level telepathy in Glib which will also be needed to detect a request for chat or collaborative gaming.

It's possible that we may get a cross game chat announcement at Gamescom but little more. Tokyo Game Show might have the PS3 4.0 announcement. These are guesses as they totally depend on Sony management.

http://www.pulseaudio.org/

PulseAudio is a sound system for POSIX OSes, meaning that it is a proxy for your sound applications. It allows you to do advanced operations on your sound data as it passes between your application and your hardware. Things like transferring the audio to a different machine, changing the sample format or channel count and mixing several sounds into one are easily achieved using a sound server.

PulseAudio is designed for Linux systems. It has also been ported to and tested on Solaris, FreeBSD, NetBSD, MacOS X, Windows 2000 and Windows XP.

PulseAudio is an integral part of all relevant modern Linux distributions and used in various mobile devices by multiple vendors.
PulseAudio 0.9.23
Arun Raghavan (16):
volume: Add explicit checks for ARMv6 instructions
rescue-streams: Fix segfault in some conditions
client: Don't update smoother while corked
echo-cancel: Move the module into it's own directory
echo-cancel: Split out speex code from the core module
echo-cancel: Pass arguments to the specific canceller module
echo-cancel: Let AEC module determine source/sink spec
echo-cancel: Add alternative echo-cancellation implementation
echo-cancel: Allow selection of AEC method using modargs
echo-cancel: Make blocksize a module-wide parameter
echo-cancel: Mark immutable parameters as const in vfunc
echo-cancel: Fix out-of-tree build
echo-cancel: Ensure correct handling of endianness
echo-cancel: Use S16NE for adrian module
echo-cancel: Fix source may_move_to function
i18n: Update POTFILES.*
Looks like it might be ready for use in the PS3 despite not reaching version 1.0. The PS3 is stated to be freeBSD by Wiki. Notice POSIX....the webkit tools all support POSIX OS, little wonder that Sony calls their version of Webkit POSIX rather than GTK. PS Suite is POSIX support too. Getting it yet? POSIX - cross platform libraries - POSIXWebkit - PS Suite
 

androvsky

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Pulse audio will be required to support echo cancellation
PulseAudio is not needed. Echo cancellation is a very, VERY common problem, with tons of literature on the subject.

from 2002: http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=32264&cid=3486161
Laura's right: you'll find the maths and the algorithms for echo cancellation in most textbooks on adaptive filtering. Check out the July 1999 issue of the IEEE Signal Processing Magazine (it shouldn't be too hard to get hold of it, most university libraries' engineering section should have it) -- it is an issue dedicated to "Adaptive Algorithms and Echo Cancellation". All the maths and algorithms you need are discussed there. Yes, you do need a good background in linear algebra to follow the underlying theory, but the algorithms should be easier to implement, and you're likely to find source code for most of them on the web (LMS filtering is used in many other applications too).
Echo cancellation is a common design problem in hands-free telephone systems and conference systems; there is lots of literature on the subject. See the references in the articles I mention above.
One of Sony's core strengths is audio. I would expect that they've written their own fair share of literature on the subject (as well as software!). I'm not saying that they'll automatically make great VOIP software; I'm saying they'll want to do it in-house.

Since PulseAudio is LGPL, do you have any indication that it's being used on the PS3? It's a low-level audio server, so it's a bit late to add it to the system without causing conflicts with existing games and software. To be effective on the platform, it'd have to use the SPUs extensively, which would be the subject of some discussion from the developers as well as show up in changelogs and the source.
 

jeff_rigby

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androvsky said:
PulseAudio is not needed. Echo cancellation is a very, VERY common problem, with tons of literature on the subject.

from 2002: http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=32264&cid=3486161


One of Sony's core strengths is audio. I would expect that they've written their own fair share of literature on the subject (as well as software!). I'm not saying that they'll automatically make great VOIP software; I'm saying they'll want to do it in-house.

Since PulseAudio is LGPL, do you have any indication that it's being used on the PS3? It's a low-level audio server, so it's a bit late to add it to the system without causing conflicts with existing games and software. To be effective on the platform, it'd have to use the SPUs extensively, which would be the subject of some discussion from the developers as well as show up in changelogs and the source.
*Edit: wrong "Sony purchased the current PS3 video chat and did not provide echo cancellation" In accessory settings press triangle when in the settings menu for the mic. Linux to this point did not have an open source echo cancellation program. This was so much of an issue that echo cancellation for pulse audio was funded by a Norwegian group to be used with Jitsi which is a multi-platform open source chat program meant to provide the same functionality as Skype. This is happening NOW and a finished version of Pulse Audio 1.0 with echo cancellation is scheduled for October.

Echo cancellation is kinda complicated because the time between primary and echo is variable and has two components. 1) is the distance from mic to TV speakers and the second is related to the MS travel time to and from the other end and on the other end the distance from their mic to speaker. You can see in the Pulse audio changelog for the latest version that there are several methods available for echo cancellation.

Edit: wrong; "The PS3 audio out is standard ALSA". ALSA is a Linux standard for audio output but the PS3 is thought to use free BSD which would mean it is using a OSS standard. The SPU tasked with audio out and the DSP hardware that converted the digital to analog audio have a driver program that emulates an industry Standard that programs can plug into. Other OS Linux provided an ALSA standard for Linux applications to plug into the PS3 hardware. This standard can be used by Sony to interface with Pulse audio. Pulse audio has a output sink that is compatible with ALSA so as far as output, it would plug in. Input for pulse audio is a set of plugins as are some of the redirections for output.

The "Standard" used to output to the PS3 PCM audio output is in this case irrelevant as no other application is going to have to know or use that standard. It can be ALSA (code provided by other OS ALSA) or OSS (FreeBSD) or custom. The input to pulse audio on the other hand has to match what applications expect. In the case of Game OS, it has to match what games expect, in the case of Gstreamer, it has to match what gstreamer expects. This is one of Pulse Audio's features, it can have multiple input plugins at the same time. So Pulse audio could provide a OSS (FreeBSD) standard input for game OS and also work with a gstreamer base plugin or even the ALSA Linux standard for GNU Linux applications.

The name Pulse Audio comes from it's primary design feature. In handheld battery operated portables like the Vita, audio is processed in bursts and then the CPU and most of the audio circuitry sleeps while the processed audio is streamed to the audio out amp. This saves CPU time and battery life. In the PS3 this was already done to allow the SPU tasked with audio to also perform other tasks. What Pulse audio gives Sony for the PS3 is a STANDARD for this and other features that plugin and are STANDARDS supported by Gstreamer.

Read the Pulse audio documentation as well as gstreamer, they are meant to work together with multiple dynamically loadable plugins to serve different functions.

The Vita is also going to have pulse audio for the reasons mentioned above (Edit: this is fact as handheld SOC designs usually assume Pulse audio or something like it will be used to conserve power). It will be used to also provide low overhead audio chat (cross game chat) between platforms Edit: that is speculation.

And as always, this is my read and my opinion and I could be wrong...but I doubt it <grin>.
 

Speevy

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This thread is the equivalent of discussing Game Zero's impact on the Gamecube in 2007.
 

jeff_rigby

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Blimblim said:
Wait, are you talking about PS3 Linux, or the actual GameOS?
PS3 other OS Linux used gstreamer, CairoFB and pulse audio too. The PS3 game side and application side are POSIX kernels similar to Linux but are thought to be based on freeBSD.

The webkit port is bringing limited support for GNU Linux to the PS3. Edit: Not Linux the kernel but GNU Linux the applications. IF using gstreamer (an accepted GNU Linux standard for AV) the application does not care if the the audio out is OSS or ALSA as gstreamer takes care of that. If the application is using Cairo for rendering then the application does not care about FB or X windows or OpenGL using a Linux kernel or FreeBSD, Cairo takes care of rendering. That's what the job listing posted by Sony supported; to port GNU Linux, webkit and related applications to the PS3. This means that Standards are going to be supported by the PS3 OS that make the PS3 more of what we think of as Linux than freeBSD. I've been mentioning Gnome Mobile as the core programs in Gnome 3.2 shell and Gnome Mobile are provided by the GTKwebkit and support libraries.

It is worth mentioning again; PS3 Other OS Linux had older versions of most of the programs supporting webkit. This includes Glib, telepathy, D-Bus, Gstreamer, Cairo, etc. What's different is that Sony is now providing accelerated hardware support. For instance Cairo on other OS Linux used a FrameBuffer backend and Cairo on the PS3 OS uses OpenGL (accelerated SPU-GPU OpenGL). What does this mean; most of the work for porting these applications to support webkit on the PS3 was already done for Other OS Linux. As of March 2011 Cairo and Webkit had finished stable releases with everything needed to support the WebGL standard also released in March. Sony then posted their webkit disclosure in Feb-March 2011.
 

jeff_rigby

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androvsky said:
Isn't that more of a subtle encouragement to buy the fancy echo-cancelling PS Eye?
o_O
What echo cancelling? There is a 4 microphone array in the PS eye that was meant to help with echo cancellation but to my knowledge that was never implemented by Sony.
 

jeff_rigby

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Sony confirms the Vita can control, act as a controller for the PS3 as well as play collaborative games. Comparisons to the WiiU worth watching. I suspect PS3-Vita collaborative abilities will be demoed at Gamescom with similar functionality.

In previous articles it was mentioned the PS3 had this Vita collaborative feature added, it is not the same as the PS3-PSP feature. It's a new standard between Vita-PS3 and most likely will be in all Sony platforms. My belief is that it uses low level Telepathy - D-Bus tubes which is in Glib. D-Bus and Telepathy (all of Glib too) are available on POSIX platforms and are an accepted standard. Most likely the WiiU will use the same negotiation standards.
 

funkystudent

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when is this thread gonna be locked.

its a bunch of random speculation and guesswork. I thought gaf had rules for this shit.

this thread has been going for months with no sign that there is a ps3 browser update or X game chat coming in the near future.

I say if we hear nothing at Gamecom this thread gets locked. Otherwise rigby will keep going until GDC next year or to e3.... when ever they might announce these mystical features.
 

jeff_rigby

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funkystudent said:
when is this thread gonna be locked.

its a bunch of random speculation and guesswork. I thought gaf had rules for this shit.

this thread has been going for months with no sign that there is a ps3 browser update or X game chat coming in the near future.

I say if we hear nothing at Gamecom this thread gets locked. Otherwise rigby will keep going until GDC next year or to e3.... when ever they might announce these mystical features.
Actually, features using webkit and support libraries have been enabled and are being used now. This is part of the point of my posts.

Also, you must have missed that WebGL - Cairo - Stable GTKWebkit happened March 2011 so it's only 4 months since then. Gstreamer 1.0 supporting 3-D is coming in October, Pulse audio 1.0 supporting echo cancellation is coming Sept-Oct, GTK3.2 is coming September 28th and on and on. Vita is (rumor) scheduled for October 28th after Pulse audio 1.0 and all the above I mentioned are finished as Vita is I believe using the same GTKwebkit and support libraries as the PS3. But you expect the PS3 to have a webkit browser before October?

Features that have been enabled came after a Stable release of the support libraries being used.

In March 2011 in another GAF thread I mentioned that it's coming in October and every post in this thread the same but I expected Sony to announce something at E3, more likely at Gamecom and a certainty at TGS.

I find it ironic that some believe it's not coming. An industry wide revolution is occurring now and few see it. Those that do would believe all are going to take advantage of the new abilities (they would be stupid to not do so) and that in my opinion includes Sony.

If X game chat is coming it will, in my opinion, use in part Pulse audio. So the delay in getting X game chat would be tied to Pulse audio 1.0 which is waiting for an echo cancellation update (to support audio chat) among other features. Complaining or making the statement that this has been going on too long so "rigby" must be wrong when I have repeatedly stated that it's coming in October is what?
 

perryfarrell

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jeff_rigby said:
I find it ironic that some believe it's not coming. An industry wide revolution is occurring now and few see it.
All we see is someone with his head stuck so deep in the sand that he fails to see the big picture, chasing unsubstantiated silly rumors down a rabbit hole.

Why o why would Sony, who doesn't have a good track record bringing additional non-gaming features to their playstation OS, at this point in the life cycle of the PS3 (past its prime), sink funds into developing a browser? It hasn't been updated or changed in years. I mean, look at the PS store... It looks like Netscape circa 1995. Updating that thing is way more important than adding a browser.
 

painful fart

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perryfarrell said:
Why o why would Sony, who doesn't have a good track record bringing additional non-gaming features to their playstation OS, at this point in the life cycle of the PS3 (past its prime), sink funds into developing a browser? It hasn't been updated or changed in years. I mean, look at the PS store... It looks like Netscape circa 1995. Updating that thing is way more important than adding a browser.
Wouldn´t it make sense if Sony spent their scarce developer resources in a joint effort to improve those features that would benefit both the PS3 and the Vita at the same time?

That is actually the main reason why I put some beliefe in Rigbys cyclic reports, but his timeline may be a bit optimistic, Sony is a pretty slow mover.