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PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news
- Thread starter CozMick
- Start date
jeff_rigby
Banned
Bad_Boy said:
Yup, that's what we have been expecting for 2 years. Finally there are OS tools to build applications. Two years ago I was looking at the Android OS being ported to the PS3 to support Chrome because the PS3 didn't have any support for applications or a browser. With the Android OS all the tools to build a webkit and support applications are there.
Gnome Mobile is like a native language version of Android. Much better than Android because it's native language but with essentially the same idea. Support graphics with a SVG library, Cairo instead of Skia and Gstreamer for AV instead of Androids open core. Both are open source with libraries chosen to be cross platform compatible.
So nothing but games announced at E3.
Angry Fork
Member
jayb said:
funkystudent
Member
well we got cross game text party chat which I always saw as a sign to voice chat was coming.Angry Fork said:
This Vita news has me thinking that its never coming to ps3. I hope sony just shoot the Cross game chat rumors in the head and just say "sorry we cant add it due to hardware limitations" instead of the years of winks and hints thats its coming.
Its All I ask. I will be disappointed but at least we will know once and for all.
jeff_rigby
Banned
jayb said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28113713&postcount=455
What embedded setups are going to display 3-D video; PS3?
I expected some announcements but not any of the major features.
August = Google not supporting older browsers
Holiday Season = NGP for sale (ecosystem upgrades done by then)
Sept-Oct = when most Linux projects are released at Linux EU.
Topics covered at the Oct 24, 2011 Gstreamer/Linux EU conference
2010 said:
The above are considered essential to platforms and are supported by Collabora with Gstreamer/Telepathy. The talk is on the progress and implementation of the above. Target date includes input from multiple projects and Google Summer Of Code.2011 said:
Compare to my guesses as to what is coming for PS3 - NGP:
1) New webkit browser (SVG, WebGL, HTML5) (GTK+Webkit) http://live.gnome.org/WebKitGtk
2) Telepathy in background always running http://gnomejournal.org/article/84/t...5-in-gnome-228
3) Collaborative educational games coming - look at OLPC http://one.laptop.org/about/software NGP "Near" = OLPC Neighborhood (Telepathy/Geoclue)
4) The entire PS3 OS is getting a rewrite to use Cairo SVG with pango international fonts.
5) New chat programs coming (possibly Empathy) http://live.gnome.org/Empathy
6) Upgraded DLNA (possibly Rygel) http://live.gnome.org/Rygel
So Xbox didn't announce their Windows7 handheld and Xbox ecosystem either. News articles have that for quarter 4 also.
jeff_rigby
Banned
jett said:
This thread was started 7/25/2010 two months before the Sept 28th 2010 release of Firmware 3.5 with the html5 webkit javascript engine. I am expecting the updates by October of this year which will make it about 1 year and two months or less from when this thread started.
jeff_rigby
Banned
M.D said:
The next gamescom will be open from August 17 to 21, 2011.
That's in the ballpark (Sept-Oct).
We've got a new update 3.65. I expect the webkit/ecosystem update version number to be 4.0. With 3.65 now and knowing 3.7 is needed for the Sony headphones this further supports a timeline after 3.7
Valve Confirmed to attend Gamescom
I have another theory; Sony decided E3 was for the Vita and Gamescom will be webkit-Social networking and ecosystem.
Portal 2 is the first use of webkit inside a game on the PS3. Gabe at the 2010 E3 announcing Sony as an OPEN to the Internet company and now at Gamescom 2011 a Webkit announcement.
Spaulding
Member
jayb said:
hmm, maybe that's a good sign... There will be games, like wipeout, that you can play simultaneously on Vita and PS3. I'd imagine that those games will use the same technology to incorporate voice-chat during gameplay.
If the PS3 doesn't get any major update prior to the Vita launch we'll probably never get CGC...
@jeff_rigby:
Nice work so far. Keep it up. Hopefully we'll see some major changes soon...
jeff_rigby
Banned
Originally Posted by jayb:
The Vita will have a cross game chat (text/voice and possibly video chat) from outside the game in "Live". The PS3 can implement this also, will probably implement "Live" and cross game chat with a memory swap to the Hard disk. Notification of a friend wanting a chat happens anywhere including in game probably using Collabora's Telepathy and a monitor program. Pausing the game takes you to "Live" the portal to a game which has Trophys, Chat, PSN Store for DLC and a button to resume game. "Live" is the portal to and the first thing you see when accessing a game. It allows you to choose players for a multi-player game and all of the above.
Cross game Voice chat from inside the game is also possible but less likely and was not announced.
The PS3 and Vita are going to share the GTK webkit and many other open source libraries.
"There will be games, like wipeout, that you can play simultaneously on Vita and PS3. I'd imagine that those games will use the same technology to incorporate voice-chat during gameplay." Yes it's possible for Sony to write their own standard for sharing information between games and provide code examples and a SDK for game developers to implement. Or they can use an established standard like Telepathy whose functionality was expanded by Collabora for One Laptop Per Child to support Collaborative educational games and Chat. Near in NGP and Neighborhood in OLPC show an amazing similarity and the choice of GTK webkit which includes Glib, Gstreamer, Cairo, geoclue, Pango and more all part of Gnome Mobile and used by OLPC make me believe that Telepathy is/will being used.
I believe there is fine tuning still being done for many of the libraries coming; this is confirmed for Gstreamer and Pulse audio. Cairo had AA issues and I believe has been updated in the PS3 with 3.65. Pango used too much memory and is being integrated with Freetype to correct that issue.
Glib is a big part of this and has not been touched on: Glib supports dynamic loading of plugins and contains D-bus and Telepathy. From GTKwebkit library list:
+ $(GLIB_LIBS) \
Glib is a software utility library in addition to glibc or subset
We are getting a GTK webkit and I believe from the lack of announcements at E3, it's being integrated into the PS3 OS and XMB and will be released in time for the Vita, S1 & S2 Andorid releases (Gamescom - Holiday season).Spaulding said:
The Vita will have a cross game chat (text/voice and possibly video chat) from outside the game in "Live". The PS3 can implement this also, will probably implement "Live" and cross game chat with a memory swap to the Hard disk. Notification of a friend wanting a chat happens anywhere including in game probably using Collabora's Telepathy and a monitor program. Pausing the game takes you to "Live" the portal to a game which has Trophys, Chat, PSN Store for DLC and a button to resume game. "Live" is the portal to and the first thing you see when accessing a game. It allows you to choose players for a multi-player game and all of the above.
Cross game Voice chat from inside the game is also possible but less likely and was not announced.
The PS3 and Vita are going to share the GTK webkit and many other open source libraries.
"There will be games, like wipeout, that you can play simultaneously on Vita and PS3. I'd imagine that those games will use the same technology to incorporate voice-chat during gameplay." Yes it's possible for Sony to write their own standard for sharing information between games and provide code examples and a SDK for game developers to implement. Or they can use an established standard like Telepathy whose functionality was expanded by Collabora for One Laptop Per Child to support Collaborative educational games and Chat. Near in NGP and Neighborhood in OLPC show an amazing similarity and the choice of GTK webkit which includes Glib, Gstreamer, Cairo, geoclue, Pango and more all part of Gnome Mobile and used by OLPC make me believe that Telepathy is/will being used.
I believe there is fine tuning still being done for many of the libraries coming; this is confirmed for Gstreamer and Pulse audio. Cairo had AA issues and I believe has been updated in the PS3 with 3.65. Pango used too much memory and is being integrated with Freetype to correct that issue.
Glib is a big part of this and has not been touched on: Glib supports dynamic loading of plugins and contains D-bus and Telepathy. From GTKwebkit library list:
+ $(GLIB_LIBS) \
glibc is a GNU Linux version of the POSIX standard libc required in all POSIX platforms. There are various subsets for embedded platforms.
Glib is a software utility library in addition to glibc or subset
sweetvar26
Member
I read some of the posts from this thread but sounds too technical.
In simple terms, are we getting just a browser update or overall software update for the OS? When can we expect it?
In simple terms, are we getting just a browser update or overall software update for the OS? When can we expect it?
I've been really busy lately so I haven't been able to respond to much on this thread...
The new browser is pretty solid, given there's source code we can look at for a PS3 port, and a job listing asking for more help. Can't get much more certain short of actually having it on the system. Everything else...
And where did you come up with the Telepathy stuff? From what I can tell, you're assuming that since it uses gstreamer and the webkit browser uses gstreamer, Sony must be planning on using it for cross game chat. That's not a valid assumption. At all.
gstreamer, cairo, and pango will probably be used in the browser. That's all we know. Just because Sony uses certain software in their TVs or blu-ray players doesn't mean they're going to rewrite the PS3's OS to match. Sony's not going to change the OS on a released game console. If you really want to believe that all these open-source libraries are coming to the PS3 and Vita, assume that it'll happen only in the context of the PS Suite.
Zinga said:
The new browser is pretty solid, given there's source code we can look at for a PS3 port, and a job listing asking for more help. Can't get much more certain short of actually having it on the system. Everything else...
Seriously, where are you getting this from? You're drawing way too many conclusions with far too little evidence. What software on the PS3 uses Cairo now? Where are the AA changes? How do you know Pango used too much memory on the PS3? And, uh, how does one integrate two different font rendering engines?
And where did you come up with the Telepathy stuff? From what I can tell, you're assuming that since it uses gstreamer and the webkit browser uses gstreamer, Sony must be planning on using it for cross game chat. That's not a valid assumption. At all.
gstreamer, cairo, and pango will probably be used in the browser. That's all we know. Just because Sony uses certain software in their TVs or blu-ray players doesn't mean they're going to rewrite the PS3's OS to match. Sony's not going to change the OS on a released game console. If you really want to believe that all these open-source libraries are coming to the PS3 and Vita, assume that it'll happen only in the context of the PS Suite.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I quote: " developing WebKit and related open source software for the Playstation3, Sony Android devices, and other Sony consumer electronics products". To my mind the job posting is not to help port webkit but to use webkit for webkit related open source software. The requirements spell this out:androvsky said:
BS or higher in Computer Science or Engineering.
Five or more years of relevant software development experience.
Knowledge of Web standards; HTML, CSS, JavaScript, DOM.
Open source software development experience.
Software development using Linux and GNU toolchains.
Expert at C/C++ programing.
IPTV and HOME, anything that is rendered with webkit or has bindings to Cairo like the Lua Home client
Home.
Reading about GTK, Cairo and Pango on other platforms like Second Life. The issues with Cairo and pango apply to all platforms.
Telepathy is part of Glib and is an extension of D-bus. It's in the PS3 now if Webkit (Glib) is in the PS3. Functionally Vita "Near" = OLPC Neighborhood; it is a valid assumption but not confirmed. Telepathy is a low level I/O standard method for negotiating D-Bus channels and more. It must be running to support any of the Gnome Chat programs for connection and negotiation of standards. It must be running to recognize a request for chat and a Telepathy monitor program must be running to notify the OS or the user. I'd refer you to my previous post for using Telepathy to support collaborative games
Define OS because there have been many changes already. You are saying that Sony will not internationalize the PS3, I am saying that they will. A major part of my reasoning is that Pango is in all 2011 networked products and Sony is targeting India and Arabic countries. The PS3 is going to play a key role there as it will here for Sony's ecosystem support.
Both the Xbox and PS3 are getting major OS changes for the coming ecosystem upgrades. In the context of a game machine, the PS3 is getting few changes. The application side in my opinion, massive changes.
Well there was new about the Live UI not being android based. So That means sony has created the OS from scratch and to add to that Vita and PS3 will be sharing eco-systems. Vita will be using an updated store that ties in with live UI and near, this is the same shit the PS3 will have to be compatible with. I see where he's coming from and it makes sense. There will have to be some sort of upgrade to the PS3's OS to stay compatible.
OS as in switching from whatever it's running now (probably an AIX varient) to linux, I'll also say they're probably not changing system font libraries at this late date.jeff_rigby said:
Where did I say Sony's not going to internationalize the PS3 (for one, it's already internationalized, it's just not complete)? I simply think they're not going switch system font rendering libraries. Since I don't know what they're using now for system fonts, I don't know how hard it would be to add left-to-right scripts to their current library.
I don't know what part of Home you're talking about. They switched to MLAA recently for the 3D graphics. What's rendered with webkit in Home?
Besides, I just checked the "About PlayStation 3" section on firmware 3.65, there's no new disclosures. No Cairo, no Pango, no webkit, no gstreamer. Why do we think Sony is currently using any of those on the PS3 without disclosing them in the "About" section again?
And what makes you think Telepathy is going to be used for anything outside the browser? What evidence is there that Sony's going to use Gnome Chat for cross-game chat in the PS3?
Sony is a game console manufacturer. When it comes to something like cross-game chat, writing their own standard and SDK is what they're most likely to do (with possibly a licensed commercial codec). Where did the italicized part of that quote come from, anyway?
Just because two pieces of software have similar functionality does not mean they are the same software, especially when one piece of software is open source and the other is being used as a core part of a game console. The default assumption should be that it is different software.
Nice addition with the edit.
I don't doubt Sony's putting a lot of effort into supporting apps across their devices, it's what PS Suite is all about (and their Skinny SDK before that, do any of the current video streaming apps use it?). Much of what you've been going on about in this thread makes it sound like Sony's making sweeping changes to open-source libraries across the entire platform, game libraries included, and that's what I've been arguing against. That, and that you assume from there that Sony's going to tack on a bunch of new features that use those libraries simply because it's possible.
Not really, the online store can run on pretty much anything, it's all http based. There's no reason the UI at the client end has to use the same rendering libraries. If you're talking about the apps being sold on that store, I agree, but jeff's been going way beyond that a lot in this thread (even taking into account his edit in his last post).pixelbox said:
I see where he's coming from too, my problem is he's going way too far with much of it. It helps if you were reading the Beyond3d forums back when he was convinced Sony was going to use Adobe Air for everything app-related. Now it's Gstreamer, Cairo, Pango.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I don't think androvsky is saying that there won't be upgrades, he just doubts that they will be as extensive as I believe or are happening now.pixelbox said:
Cairo had to be included with firmware 3.5 to support the HTML5 javascript engine. GTK, Glib and other libraries to support webkit rendering or front end were not needed at that time. I believe they were needed for Portal 2. The Home client 1.4 upgrade needed Lua with Cairo bindings. Freetype is being used as the default webkit SVG font so Pango is not needed yet and may not be in the PS3. Pango is going to be integrated into Freetype so an upgrade to that is coming. https://live.gnome.org/WebKitGtk (Pango should not be listed as a webkit library, it should already be part of Freetype.) This shows how long ago Sony started working with the GTK webkit as this was a part of 4/22/2010 recomendations. Edit: Either this is true or there is a reason to keep pango separate like using it for System fonts for Internationalization not just for webkit. Pango Memory leak vulnerability detected March 2, 2011
Support for Arm processors and SOC embedded systems has been a part of Gnome Mobile and porting a Linux Gnome toolkit Linux OS to a Arm handheld extremely easy. Porting to the PS3 very difficult but once a PS3 webkit port is done (Most of the Gnome Mobile toolkit is ported with the webkit port.), it's just as easy to make changes to the PS3 OS.
Even if the Vita has 512 meg, much of that memory has to be used to load toolkits and applications as there can be no swapping and dynamic loading from SD memory as it's too slow and can be damaged as it has a limited R/W life cycle limit. So the PS3 Limit of 265 meg is not that much of a limit when you consider the Vita does not have a Hard Disk and can not use virtual memory.
jeff_rigby
Banned
They do not need to change to Linux but they need to include additions to libc to match glibc and include Glib. Font libraries, why not; there is little to change. And there is also that in some cases Cairo-Pango is used to create a bit-mapped font "image" library that is used to render text from memory rather than use SVG to create "Image" characters on the fly. This would answer your concerns with rewriting OS routines.androvsky said:
Pango provides the SVG Fonts and the layout engine to have left-right and right-left as well as bi-directional which is needed when technical terms in English are included inside an Arabic line of text. Switching to SVG fonts will save memory and reduce the Firmware size, an absolute must if you are going to include multiple new fonts. Again, there are reasons all handhelds use SVG graphics that apply to the PS3 also.
It's not webkit in home it's Lua with Cairo bindings so all rendering in Home is with Cairo. Lua client 1.4 resulted in a smaller size and more shader functions which is a word for word description of the benefits in implementing Lua with Cairo bindings. And now that rendering in Home is with cairo, webkit routines that expect/use cairo SVG for rendering will work in Home also.
Pango does not require disclosure, Cairo has already been disclosed in the webkit site, webkit has been disclosed and I believe Gstreamer too with more coming according to Geoff Levand in his second email.
These are the guys who are currently porting webkit to the PS3. They are the Sony Linux-Cell guys.
Sony Linux site and updated by Geoff as late as last month. He kept his word and is updating the Linux support site on his own time. Sony gave him the webkit and Linux Gnome Mobile toolkit assignment in April of 2010 when they eliminated other OS Linux. Geoff's name pops up for the first time in April 2010 at webkit hackfests.
Already answered and I didn't specify the cross game Voice chat application just that the low level detection would be via Telepathy. In "Live" yes a Gnome chat program properly edited of features will probably be used there. From a previous message:
"The Vita will have a cross game chat (text/voice and possibly video chat) from outside the game in "Live". The PS3 can implement this also, will probably implement "Live" and cross game chat with a memory swap to the Hard disk. Notification of a friend wanting a chat happens anywhere including in game probably using Collabora's Telepathy and a monitor program. Pausing the game takes you to "Live" the portal to a game which has Trophys, Chat, PSN Store for DLC and a button to resume game. "Live" is the portal to and the first thing you see when accessing a game. It allows you to choose players for a multi-player game and all of the above.
Cross game Voice chat from inside the game is also possible but less likely and was not announced.
. Normally I'd agree here except everything in the Gnome Moble toolkit is being used for the PS3 and NGP. It's simpler to use the standards created than to develop new standards particularly since it's going to have to apply across several hardware platforms and will be used for chat and collaborative games/applications; some of which are coming from OLPC and Gnome/Linux.
Upgrades to existing features for the most part. There is nothing outstanding or exceptional in what's coming. Just upgrades in features to catch up with 2 years of advances in the real world that didn't happen to the PS3 for whatever reason. The only thing that's noteable is that its happening all at one time rather than over those last two years. Edit: It now looks like Firmware 3.0 (2009) contained at least Pixman (included in Cairo) and possibly an unfinished version of Cairo. The X-O-Triangles in the main screen and "What's New" trapezoid video manipulation could be Sony showing off new features that could be Cairo. So I'd restate and say that no major changes to the visible features we would notice will happen till 4.0.
We are talking about "Live" which has UI/webkit and chat functions and "Live" should be in the PS3 also. EDIT: The on-line store is not HTML it's XML (being picky) and it's for the most part on the PS3 Hard disk and at this time is part of PS3 firmware. (Just visited a PS3 pirate site that had a list of Files on the PS3 hard disk.)
From androvsky
If you read the thread, my position on the game side has not changed. From a previous message:
systemD and Glib make this possible, one or both may be used. Edit: systemd is Linux similar to Apple's launchd. Something similar, edited of not used features and ported to the PS3 OS whatever it is.
Yes, I was wrong....went from Android to webkit then to Adobe Air for embedded and when we got the Sony webkit disclosure I finally had enough information to be able to eliminate alot of guesswork. That lead to finding the Sony Snap developer site and to search using keywords GTK Cairo, Gstreamer, the rest follows.
The reason for the Android assumption: Two years ago I was looking at the Android OS being ported to the PS3 to support Chrome because the PS3 didn't have any support for applications or a browser. With the Android OS all the tools to build a webkit and support applications are there.
Gnome Mobile is like a native language version of Android. Much better than Android because it's native language but with essentially the same idea. Both are open source with libraries chosen to be cross platform compatible and the whole package using the fewest resources. With Gnome Mobile the tools to build a webkit and support applications are there.
The reason for the Adobe Air assumption was because the PS3 was supporting Flash 3.5 streams and needed an ultraviolet DRM adaptave streaming player. The only one I could find using Google search was Flash based (Air) and FREE or a custom Sony build which I didn't think Sony would do. The tools to build applications are there and Air for embedded (Flash) can share a webkit javascript engine with a webkit browser.
When I used the keyword Gstreamer DRM I finally found a Marlin Gstreamer adaptive streaming Ultraviolet DRM player was being used by the PS3 (The information was in a PDF file that a Google crawler could not find and index...maybe on purpose?). IF we had known Gstreamer was in the PS3 we could have eliminated Adobe Air and Android and Chrome <grin, your assumption and you had the information I didn't have a year ago>....this information was available 2 years ago but we didn't have the key words to search for it.
I made a big deal of Gstreamer AV in the PS3 on B3D when I found it as I believe it is the most important find given Sony is a AV company and it's use defines future features and answers many questions. Shifty didn't think it relevant to conversations and I got banned for posting information about it in a comparison of AV features between the PS3 and Xbox.
In my opinion a very big goof by Shifty showing his ignorance and shared by just about everyone because I believe Sony does not want this information out there.
If you haven't followed these links I believe you need to do so. From what I have seen and read, the Vita is borrowing at least ideas from OLPC. Both Vita (NGP) and the OLPC Sugar interface are running on the SAME Gnome Mobile GTKwebkit and toolkit and have the same functionality but "we must assume they are not using the same Glib software tools" ?
2) Telepathy in background always running http://gnomejournal.org/article/84/t...5-in-gnome-228
3) Collaborative educational games coming - look at OLPC http://one.laptop.org/about/software NGP "Near" = OLPC Neighborhood (Telepathy/Geoclue)
jeff_rigby
Banned
It is not clear that this is cross game party chat as my assumption is that it occurs from "Live" which is the portal to a game and you must pause the game to reach "Live" or access Live before starting a game.
http://www.psu.com/Rumor--PS-Vitas-Party-voice-chat-feature-coming-to-PS3---a011987-p0.php
Telepathy and a monitor program written by Sony will always be running in both the game side and Application side of the PS3.
2) Telepathy in background always running http://gnomejournal.org/article/84/t...5-in-gnome-228
Telepathy is a small set of very small programs to monitor and negotiate data channels between platforms over networks and between programs wherever they are running, inside the same machine or cross platform. What it does and the various other small programs it can call that are in Glib allow for negotiation of Standards and for instance use LibnICE
You really need to read two years of blogs by Collabora and others to understand that Sony is stepping into a OS and toolkit that was designed for exactly what they are now doing. IT's chicken and egg as to whether the Gnome Mobile functionality is driving Sony or Sony chose Gnome Mobile GTK because it matched their plans.
Gnome Mobile will plug-in to a ARM platform (Vita) with little custom work needed as it's already been ported to ARM. The PS3 cell on the other hand will require much more work. I would guess this is why the PS3 is always last for getting the same features in these news blogs.
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6317468/e3-2011-sony-playstation-vita-inside-and-out/p-2.html
Near = OLPC Neighborhood
Activity Logs ~ OLPC Journal
Video of the multiple PSN social networking features in the Vita that should also make their way into the PS3.
http://thegamershub.net/2011/06/playstation-vita’s-social-features/
http://www.psu.com/Rumor--PS-Vitas-Party-voice-chat-feature-coming-to-PS3---a011987-p0.php
SCEA America's on-line technology group = Geoff Levand and party porting Gnome Mobile tools. "create and host voice chat rooms, invite friends, and allow everyone in your party to see what you are playing and hop into your online game." That requires alot of negotiating connections and data channels as does collaborative games. That just about spells out Telepathy functionality as does "Near". Telepathy is in Glib which is included/required with webkitGTK and is part of a OS serviced loop/stack of programs similar to libc. I.E. it's there and was designed for these types of uses, is required by Gnome chat programs. Yet androvsky says we should assume it won't be used for a game machine when one of it's designed functions is to facilitate collaborative games.
Telepathy and a monitor program written by Sony will always be running in both the game side and Application side of the PS3.
2) Telepathy in background always running http://gnomejournal.org/article/84/t...5-in-gnome-228
Telepathy is a small set of very small programs to monitor and negotiate data channels between platforms over networks and between programs wherever they are running, inside the same machine or cross platform. What it does and the various other small programs it can call that are in Glib allow for negotiation of Standards and for instance use LibnICE
Telepathy and the other programs in Gnome Mobile and Glib have been evolving over 4 years to solve problems and issues with connections between multiple platforms and through firewalls and various networks while using the fewest resources. It's already optimally designed for the Vita and PS3 as the design goals in Gnome Mobile match/were made with handheld limited resource platforms and cross platform in mind. (We can thank Nokia and Intel for funding much of this.)
You really need to read two years of blogs by Collabora and others to understand that Sony is stepping into a OS and toolkit that was designed for exactly what they are now doing. IT's chicken and egg as to whether the Gnome Mobile functionality is driving Sony or Sony chose Gnome Mobile GTK because it matched their plans.
Gnome Mobile will plug-in to a ARM platform (Vita) with little custom work needed as it's already been ported to ARM. The PS3 cell on the other hand will require much more work. I would guess this is why the PS3 is always last for getting the same features in these news blogs.
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6317468/e3-2011-sony-playstation-vita-inside-and-out/p-2.html
LiveArea = Sony custom portal to a game; Trophy(s), Friends playing game, PSN store access for DLC, Chat, Access to Game
Near = OLPC Neighborhood
Activity Logs ~ OLPC Journal
Video of the multiple PSN social networking features in the Vita that should also make their way into the PS3.
http://thegamershub.net/2011/06/playstation-vita’s-social-features/
Others are also speculating that New Social networking features will make their way to the PS3 also.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Recap on past PS3 SDKs showing advanced technology that is now possible in the PS3. (work in progress)
Most introduced in Japan at Tokyo Game Show or CEDEC and some we haven't seen yet in the application side of the PS3. Are these going to make an appearance with the ecosystem upgrades?
Image enlargement Cairo SVG engine
Hyper-text and SVG text and images. Support libraries now in the PS3 with webkitGTK but the OS needs to know how to process. The GT5 picture database of cars used this feature. More coming?
Face Recognition
Speech Recognition
Sony adds YouTube upload support with PS3 SDK
At the PS3 release (2005) Applications on the PS3 were built with ProDG using Visual Studio (MS tools) The recent Job listings have as a requirement GNU Linux toolchain familiarity. When did this change take place and what it means for us is open to speculation.
Most introduced in Japan at Tokyo Game Show or CEDEC and some we haven't seen yet in the application side of the PS3. Are these going to make an appearance with the ecosystem upgrades?
Image enlargement Cairo SVG engine
Face Recognition
Speech Recognition
Sony adds YouTube upload support with PS3 SDK
At the PS3 release (2005) Applications on the PS3 were built with ProDG using Visual Studio (MS tools) The recent Job listings have as a requirement GNU Linux toolchain familiarity. When did this change take place and what it means for us is open to speculation.
jeff_rigby
Banned
http://www.gamegen.com.br/destaques...-do-playstation-vita-em-apresentacao-da-sony/
The above appears to be a Picture that lists Applications supported by the Vita. Notice the Skype logo and DLNA logo in the picture. Notice also the icons for pictures, video and music.
Skype & DLNA may be confirmed for the Vita or this could be old sales literature, unauthorized by Sony. Recently with Skype being purchased by Microsoft there is concern that it will not be as Open or free to use. At the very least I believe this shows that Sony will support cross platform chat inside and OUTSIDE the PSN. A very good business move and the PS3 should also gets this ability. I expect with MS purchasing Skype that the Xbox will support Skype.
DLNA for the Vita, if the Vita is to play and control files playing on the PS3 means an updated DLNA player on the PS3, possibly Rygel on both the Vita and PS3 or just extentions to support the latest DLNA standards for the PS3.
The above appears to be a Picture that lists Applications supported by the Vita. Notice the Skype logo and DLNA logo in the picture. Notice also the icons for pictures, video and music.
Skype & DLNA may be confirmed for the Vita or this could be old sales literature, unauthorized by Sony. Recently with Skype being purchased by Microsoft there is concern that it will not be as Open or free to use. At the very least I believe this shows that Sony will support cross platform chat inside and OUTSIDE the PSN. A very good business move and the PS3 should also gets this ability. I expect with MS purchasing Skype that the Xbox will support Skype.
DLNA for the Vita, if the Vita is to play and control files playing on the PS3 means an updated DLNA player on the PS3, possibly Rygel on both the Vita and PS3 or just extentions to support the latest DLNA standards for the PS3.
Making games for a WebGL-supporting PS3 browser would be amazing.
Hell, even the built-in pages for the browser would fucking rock in WebGL.
More about this magic technology: http://www.chromeexperiments.com/webgl
Hell, even the built-in pages for the browser would fucking rock in WebGL.
More about this magic technology: http://www.chromeexperiments.com/webgl
jeff_rigby
Banned
Good Find! One of the multiple demos on the page above is 3-D from a browser. This confirms both YouTube comments and a Sony comment that we would be able to view 3-D from the PS3 browser in a year. That would have been a couple of months ago so any time now.....Utako said:
There is also the Firefox web of wonders site https://demos.mozilla.org/en-US/#marblerun
http://www.pcworld.com/article/230426/facebooks_secret_projects_outed_meet_project_spartan.html
http://zorinlinux.cyacomputerblog.c...nd-python-with-gtk-and-webkit-linux-tutorial/
Click on the above link and watch the video. This is why the excitement over webkit and GTK. It's extremely easy to call and use.
Open windows anywhere and display or edit information. It's the reason for browser desktops and a total redesign of the Linux Gnome Shell to support this.
OLPC allows the owner/user access to python and the ability to modify the Sugar interface and OS for the OLPC (the sugar interface is written in python). A reset to default is also provided.
It's too soon to know how Sony wrote the Vita UI and desktop, they could have also used Python or any of the languages that have bindings to GTK and webkit. Like Android's webkit, GTK, webkit and support libraries are compiled native language for performance reasons.
Interpreted languages like Android, Python, Java or others can call the native language routines for a powerful and easy to use Hybrid combination that is cross platform compatible.
http://www.itworld.com/mobile-wireless/170155/end-linux-desktop-wars
This article is talking about HTML5 browser desktops becoming the standard platform for applications both Cloud and HTML5 hybrid/native. This is where Gnome Desktop shell is going with version 3.2 and GTK3.2.
jeff_rigby
Banned
WebKitGTK+ is the port of the WebKit engine to the GNOME platform
Collabora concentrates on Multi-media which touches on Webkit and other projects. Gstreamer AV (Collabora) is an integral part of Linux and many Webkit ports (Firefox, Opera).
GTK Icon
GTKwebkit icon
Picture/icons are for reference and possible future use by News blogs. The incorrect blog posts of Chrome coming to the PS3 all had Chrome Icons but none had Icons when correctly posting WEBKIT. Few apparently know what a GTK toolkit is or what a GTKwebkit IS or can do.
WebKitGTK+ is the port of the WebKit engine to the GNOME platform and "strives to be deeply integrated into the platform making an extensive use of all its foundation libraries like cairo (graphics), libsoup (networking), gnome-keyring (authentication), GStreamer (multimedia), pango (font support), etc." tied with my previous post about Gnome Mobile should give everyone an idea of where Sony MIGHT be going with the PS3.
Gnome 3.2 with GTK3.2 is evolving toward an integrated browser Desktop and Social networking. Ubuntu Linux using this new shell will no longer have Firefox as the default browser but will use a GTKwebkit version instead.
It is my belief that Sony is again looking ahead and believes as do Collabora and Igalia that the future desktops or UI frontends will be browser based supporting native GTK (or QT) and hybrid HTML5/GTK applications. (Nokia going with WP7 will probably mean that they will drop support for QT. IF you remember, Netflix ported a QTwebkit toolkit to the PS3 to support Netflix.)
GTK3.2 due September and Webkit2 (mentioned in the Sony Diff file) is nearing stable release. PulseAudio "by end of year" and Gstreamer 1.0 about the same time. Also planned are upgrades to Empathy chat to better integrate it into the Gnome Shell.
Webkit 2
Sony may be waiting for Webkit2 and GTK 3.2 before releasing: Webkit2 if properly supported by the PS3 PPU and using SPUR code which allows a Cell SPU to emulate most of the functions of a PPU can support the multi-cpu split process webkit2 to further increase WebGL performance. GTK 3.2 is getting multiple new features including broadway which allows GTK desktop applications to run in a browser or on the desktop interchangeably.
GTK+ 3.2 Squeezes In A Couple More Features
Why should Sony be supporting remote desktop and running remote GTK applications in a Game console; I believe it makes the PS3 more valuable and supports multiple uses to extend the life of the PS3. It's a "does it all" feature.
Gnome 3.2 due to release September 28, 2011 is as stated above, a set of foundation libraries and in addition utilities to integrate the features of a desktop. All that goes into the foundation libraries are being updated with features that match the vision of the Gnome Committees at hackfests. Gnome 3.1 (current version) is the unstable working release for the Stable 3.2 release due September 28th.
The schedule and more information Is on the 3.1 development page. Gnome 3.2 platform features are on this page. You decide, are some of these features necessary for a Sony ecosystem, are they something that would add value to Sony platforms and the PS3?
It is assumed that Sony will put their own spin on many of the Gnome 3.2 features, some of these features are necessary for the NGP.
Application menu / Actions / Jumplists
Backup
Color Management
Contacts = Friends
Crypto Glue
Quick File Previewing
Finding And Reminding
Fix Annoying Things
Human Interface Guidelines
IBus/XKB support
Login Screen
On-screen Keyboard
Sharing Many things on a modern desktop are most useful if they can easily be shared with different people or over different devices: calendar information, notes, music, photos, contacts, your entire desktop.
System Dialogs
Tablets / touch / scrollbars
Web Applications Integration
Just like with PS3 firmware 3.5's release Sept 28, 2010, (The last major Gnome release (2.8) was released Sept 29, 2010 and included GTK3.0) I think Gnome 3.2's (contains GTK 3.2) release September 28th 2011 date will be close to a major firmware release for the PS3.
Collabora concentrates on Multi-media which touches on Webkit and other projects. Gstreamer AV (Collabora) is an integral part of Linux and many Webkit ports (Firefox, Opera).
GTK Icon
GTKwebkit icon
Picture/icons are for reference and possible future use by News blogs. The incorrect blog posts of Chrome coming to the PS3 all had Chrome Icons but none had Icons when correctly posting WEBKIT. Few apparently know what a GTK toolkit is or what a GTKwebkit IS or can do.
WebKitGTK+ is the port of the WebKit engine to the GNOME platform and "strives to be deeply integrated into the platform making an extensive use of all its foundation libraries like cairo (graphics), libsoup (networking), gnome-keyring (authentication), GStreamer (multimedia), pango (font support), etc." tied with my previous post about Gnome Mobile should give everyone an idea of where Sony MIGHT be going with the PS3.
Gnome 3.2 with GTK3.2 is evolving toward an integrated browser Desktop and Social networking. Ubuntu Linux using this new shell will no longer have Firefox as the default browser but will use a GTKwebkit version instead.
It is my belief that Sony is again looking ahead and believes as do Collabora and Igalia that the future desktops or UI frontends will be browser based supporting native GTK (or QT) and hybrid HTML5/GTK applications. (Nokia going with WP7 will probably mean that they will drop support for QT. IF you remember, Netflix ported a QTwebkit toolkit to the PS3 to support Netflix.)
GTK3.2 due September and Webkit2 (mentioned in the Sony Diff file) is nearing stable release. PulseAudio "by end of year" and Gstreamer 1.0 about the same time. Also planned are upgrades to Empathy chat to better integrate it into the Gnome Shell.
Webkit 2
Sony may be waiting for Webkit2 and GTK 3.2 before releasing: Webkit2 if properly supported by the PS3 PPU and using SPUR code which allows a Cell SPU to emulate most of the functions of a PPU can support the multi-cpu split process webkit2 to further increase WebGL performance. GTK 3.2 is getting multiple new features including broadway which allows GTK desktop applications to run in a browser or on the desktop interchangeably.
GTK+ 3.2 Squeezes In A Couple More Features
If my guess is correct then Sept-October, the PS3 will have a UI and webkit that is state of the art and equal or better than every other platforms browser. I expect Sony to spend considerable time optimizing the Cell to support the new browser, remember the WebGL game patent.
Why should Sony be supporting remote desktop and running remote GTK applications in a Game console; I believe it makes the PS3 more valuable and supports multiple uses to extend the life of the PS3. It's a "does it all" feature.
Gnome 3.2 due to release September 28, 2011 is as stated above, a set of foundation libraries and in addition utilities to integrate the features of a desktop. All that goes into the foundation libraries are being updated with features that match the vision of the Gnome Committees at hackfests. Gnome 3.1 (current version) is the unstable working release for the Stable 3.2 release due September 28th.
The schedule and more information Is on the 3.1 development page. Gnome 3.2 platform features are on this page. You decide, are some of these features necessary for a Sony ecosystem, are they something that would add value to Sony platforms and the PS3?
It is assumed that Sony will put their own spin on many of the Gnome 3.2 features, some of these features are necessary for the NGP.
Application menu / Actions / Jumplists
Backup
Color Management
Contacts = Friends
Crypto Glue
Quick File Previewing
Finding And Reminding
Fix Annoying Things
Human Interface Guidelines
IBus/XKB support
Login Screen
On-screen Keyboard
Sharing Many things on a modern desktop are most useful if they can easily be shared with different people or over different devices: calendar information, notes, music, photos, contacts, your entire desktop.
System Dialogs
Tablets / touch / scrollbars
Web Applications Integration
Just like with PS3 firmware 3.5's release Sept 28, 2010, (The last major Gnome release (2.8) was released Sept 29, 2010 and included GTK3.0) I think Gnome 3.2's (contains GTK 3.2) release September 28th 2011 date will be close to a major firmware release for the PS3.
WrenchNinja
Member
I know lots of people complain about jeff bringing up all this info but I love this stuff. Very interesting, even if the web browser upgrade never happens.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Ashes1396 said:
Yes and to recap;
1) Androvsky confirmed that WebkitGTK coming to the PS3 is a fact.
2) Androvsky believes as I do, this is speculation, that the GTK toolkit will be used to support applications on the PS3.
Beyond that Androvsky does not believe that Sony will make significant changes to integrate the GTK toolkit and webkit (Gnome Mobile) into the PS3 OS. His view, if I understand correctly, is that GTKwebkit and applications will be run from the XMB like the current Browser does.
We both agree that the GameOS will have few changes (he missed reading multiple places where I state this). I believe that Telepathy will be running in both sides of of the PS3, he believes Sony will have a custom application to provide the same functionality.
A KEY word popping up all over the place in this thread is Cross Platform compatibility. Every Open source Library in the Linux Gnome shell or Gnome Mobile is cross platform and has already been ported to all major platforms. Besides allowing Linux applications an easy port to the PS3, anything developed for the PS3 can be used on the PS4 allowing an easy OS build when the hardware choices for it are made.
So any work on the PS3 OS to update it will also be usable on the PS4. Think of the PS3 over the next few years as a test bed for the more powerful PS4 that is coming when 4k resolution multi-media is popular in Japan and holographic blu-ray drives are perfected.
http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/06/17/sonys.tretton.says.ps.vita.could.fill.in.for.ipod/
So Sony is featuring support for entertainment media (Gstreamer & Players) as well as supporting other important features found in other platforms.
madmaxx350
Member
man , gotta admit this post made me laughed especially when your avatar is taking into account herekvn said:
to stay on topic , Jeff I hope what you say is true I do hope for a better browser lol
Well, it's more accurate to say that I wouldn't be surprised if Sony uses open-source libraries to facilitate PS Suite, since they want it to run on pretty much everything.jeff_rigby said:
I'm a little lost here. Do you think GTK and webkit are being integrated into the OS, or do you think there will be few changes? Because I think integrating webkit and GTK is a lot of very big changes, especially if they're going to keep the same memory footprint in games.
I actually believe Sony had a custom application for cross-game chat about two years ago. There were a bunch of leaks that indicated it was going to launch about the same time as Uncharted 2, then it got pulled at the last minute to become part of PS+. Then, when PS+ was about to launch, there were again a bunch of leaks about it but somehow managed to get pulled again at the last minute. Why it got pulled then when it was so close to launching I have no idea. Speculation might include playing chicken with EA over... something... or wanting to make Steam-compatible chat, or Vita-compatible, or who knows.
I doubt they pulled it to use Telpathy/Empathy. Keep in mind, the memory savings you've been mentioning assume that GTK, webkit and glibc are already loaded.
More like app sizes are small if everything's using the same libraries... which is valid, if you're talking about an entirely new and unified system, like Android or PS Suite. If you're talking about existing (or, frankly, future) PS3 games, you can't set aside room for stuff like webkit and GTK. There's 50MB of RAM reserved for the system on the PS3, and that has to include the kernel and whatever space it needs for memory mapping, in addition to little things like the XMB, system prompts and the like.
Yeah, Sony's all about cross-platform stuff these days, which is a good thing. Just don't forget there's many different ways to achieve that.
I've been working on 4k media and hardware for the last several years, and I don't even think it's going to hit it big in Japan within the next two years.
jeff_rigby
Banned
There are multiple ways to have cross platform portability and depending on whether it's a game or application two basic classes; I.E. one that requires more native language like games and one that can be hybrid. In either case the Open source support libraries to support GTK Webkit and webkit it'sself provide all that is necessary except for the most demanding games and for those I would guess the Android NDK would be used for C compatibility.androvsky said:
In the Sony Snap developer site, Cairo, the SVG drawing library that uses OpenGL is expected to evolve to use the Collada "Game asset" file format so I expect Sony is expecting ALL (games and applications) to be cross platform supported with the webkit support libraries.
You have to go back to my description of the two different snapshot kernels the PS3 has. One for the game side and one for the application and multi-media side. The gameOS side boots without many of the PS3 OS kernel tools loaded; that will not change. What will change is a Telepathy like application (a few K of bytes in size) and a minimal Glib presence. A game can be paused and a virtual memory swap can load "Live". It really is nothing different from the XMB loading when the PS button is pressed in a game. Now instead of the XMB, my guess is it will load Live which is what the Vita does.
Edit: To insure the least latency in a wireless connection between Vita and PS3 to play collaborative games, Telepathy will have to determine the best connection method which would be a direct wireless connection from Vita to PS3 rather than through the homes wireless router. This is not normally possible and is not usually a supported standard. This wireless connection method was implemented for OLPC as the assumption was there may be no home router always present. I expect Vita to Vita WiFi connections (if in range) even if WiFi routers are not present and Vita is not equipped with mobile phone support shown on this video at 1:44.
Implied in this is the ability to recognize that the Vita has moved into the same room with the PS3 so I expect the PS3 to go into special modes with the Vita present and in the same vein, to go into special modes if a specific type of controller is present. These changes would be part of the ecosystem updates.
Yes and that only applies to the Application/multi-media side of the PS3. I'm sorry if there was confusion about this. GameOS should be considered a separate scheme/model. Trying to force the two to look like each other or work like each other retards innovation and functionality. That I expect is going to change.
The 4K broadcast standard was supposed to hit Japan, Brasil, China and S. Korea around 2015. And again, PS4 game side would have 1080P rendering for games (3-D up from 720P to 1080P) but the multi-media side would display 4k with a holographic blu-ray with 500 Gig or larger per disk. This is another reason I think Sony is in no hurry to release the PS4; a hardware wait for the optical drive to be practical. I didn't put a definite date here as I didn't want to push the thread off topic.
Right now my 1080P $170 Sony video camera records MP4 at 25FPS. On the PS3 you can stop the play and display a frame. What I expect eventually is the ability to zoom in on a paused frame like we can now do with the 12 megapixel pictures I take with my $69.00 digital camera. The higher res in a 4K video camera would be usable (with Zoom) now on a PS3 using a 1080P or lower res TV. We could even have zoom and targeting of different areas of the screen while the video is playing. All possible now but probably a 2012 PS3 feature (depends on 4K video popularity).
I noticed a SYSOP changed the thread title to: PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news . I don't think that's really accurate unless it's referencing on WHEN the upgrade will happen
I notice that Geoff has even posted the webkit Sony Job opening on Craigs list now. Getting a new guy up to speed is going to take a few weeks and if they are depending on more internal help in what I expect is a Sony internal timetable they might be going nuts. There is always external consultation with Collabora and others for webkit and porting Gnome GNU Linux applications to the PS3 but if it's PS3 OS changes and integration I expect they want to keep that in house. There is also the Vita and Android S1 and S2.
Microsoft with the massive talent pool it has is also not releasing their ecosystem upgrades till the 4th quarter 2011.
Edit: and last:
Cross game chat inside a game is possible but there is too high a level of speculation involved in this even for me. I mentioned previously that PulseAudio can support multiple audio streams that Telepathy can manage so it's possible.
jeff_rigby
Banned
androvsky said:
I knew about the PS3 to PSP which required an initial wired connection via USB to register the pair which I assume was custom Sony to allow the PS3 wired LAN Mac address (and possibly security keys) to be transferred to the PSP . I did not know about PSP to PSP. Got me, big hole in my knowledge. Thanks for the information.
Some of this custom PS3 to PSP, PSP to PSP and requiring a PSN Server connection to enable mapping of IP addresses and ports behind older Routers and automatic Plug and play assigned port forwarding will be replaced with Standards supported by ICE (in Glib) which includes support for 802.11s ( Mesh Networking) which also requires support in glib in the Vita and libc if androvsky is right about the POSIX OS Sony is using for the PS3. Then there is IPV6 which allows newer routers to assign extended IP addresses.
Point is that Sony is behind standards because it makes their job easier. Having others provide open source software that complies with industry standards is something that Sony does; they even sponsor or start Committees to create the standards.
Edit: In thinking over the weekend, in worst case with both the PS3 and any of the Sony ecosystem portables using WiFi, several coming features won't work reliably; games, remote play or remote desktop and Rygel, the new DLNA 1.5 open source player/server, will have problems. Ad-hoc mode and gateway mode will have to be supported automatically depending on special case use of those features. The problem is the double hop through the same WiFi channel of large numbers of packets.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Actually the size of the display required with 4k resolution is a function of the distance from the TV. In smaller rooms, which I think you are imagining for typical homes in Japan, you don't need as large a screen.onken said:
Apple is putting alot of money into 4K from their Light Peak I/O port to support it and faster devices.
The reasons for using 4K in movie production are many and some apply to the consumer market. For a source platform, I.E. Blu-ray player to have a 4K standard and able to output video at any resolution up to 4K is the best of all worlds. Film has a resolution somewhere between 2K and 4K. The current TV standards we use compress color depth while 4K does not. This does create a visible difference even on smaller screens.
News I've read have Japan and China with broadcast 4K by 2015. Wikipedia is predicting 4K blu-ray players in 2012. 4K is currently required in polarized 1080P 3-D and the 3-D glassless head tracking 3-D TVs (would have something similar to Kinect in them).
First Super High 8k television
Youtube is providing support for video shot in 4K
8K broadcast standard in Japan by 2015
PS3 can display 4K resolution, same Cell and RSX used in Sony video editor.
Not the TV but the SOURCE, the blu-ray player!!!!!!!! with source media @ 4K but able to display on ALL TVs no matter what resolution from 480P UP. More powerful players like a PS4 could trick play and zoom in on areas of the screen and more.
Sony Demonstrates GT5 in 4K resolution
Discussion on Sony says the Cell-RSX combo will eventually do 4K
From Doctor_No:
Which seems to indicate that Sony feels that 4K is a standard that they will support.
Lagspike_exe
Member
1080p isn't going anywhere any time soon. There is absolutely no justification for investing into new and extremely expensive TVs when 1080p is enough for >99% of consumers. 4k will stick to cinema for now.