androvsky said:
To get this straight, you're asking if a total XMB rewrite is possible with GTKwebkit and Glib?
Yes!
Is a total XMB rewrite possible using QTwebkit and QT? Yes!
Webkit and Enlightenment? Yes!
GTK and Mozilla? Yup.
Home? As in Playstation Home? Yes, they could replace the XMB with that. And there was a group in Sony that tried according to some rumors.
You've been putting a lot of effort into discovering what Sony could do with various libraries and toolkits on the PS3. The answer is pretty much whatever they want, given the limitations of the hardware (mostly RAM). The big thing with me is that answer doesn't change if they're using GTK+, QT, Cairo, Enlightenment, or Sony's own home-grown libraries.
So when we look at the webkit disclosure and see that it's using GT+K to handle some basic interface functions, all I conclude from it is that the webkit browser is using GTK+. GTK+'s main reason for being is to present a consistent windowing interface for both the user and programmer across multiple platforms. Much of what it does isn't really needed on the PS3, since most applications will running full-screen, one at a time, and thus don't need to deal with the complexities of a windowing environment. GTK+ is overkill for Sony's meager needs for most of these applications.
So yes Sony can do as I speculated. But will they,
you assume no for several reasons.
1) You assume it doesn't mean much that a Standard-easy-popular-cross platform-toolkit for building applications or porting existing GTK toolkit applications to multiple Sony platforms was chosen. And that the GTK toolkit is Cairo SVG based means nothing. Edit: Obviously you do know some of the advantages as you stated them above. But you again assume that the big advantages also seen in Gnome Mobile, Android and iOS in using a SVG based toolkit will not make their way into the PS3 OS.
Then there is gstreamer, telepathy, and the host of OS utilities in Glib.
androvsky said:
Obviously Sony already has made a bunch of applications for the PS3, so they've got the basic libraries covered. And chances are, knowing Sony, those libraries are largely incompatible with everything else Sony makes. We know they've got a big push to unify their software development across hardware.
How many is a bunch of applications; I count 6 prior to webkit and support libraries and 6 is not a bunch compared to the 10s of thousands of iOS and Android apps.
Massa and you pointed out the PS3 is using (Wiki confirmed) FreeBSD so it didn't have to legally disclose (no GPL or LGPL). If choices for libraries have as a primary criteria that they don't need to be disclosed it severely limits Sony choices to much older or Sony clean room code. For example take the current Qriocity audio application code from 1999 and severely bloated in size (121 megs). Hulu a video application is 2 megs because it uses webkit and Gstreamer DRM. That is possible because Sony is using 2010 webkit and support library code but they had to disclose it.
All current (pre-webkit) PS3 applications are severely bloated and designed to run one at a time. They have a modular "plugin" design to allow for easy replacement or changes without impacting other PS3 programs. While it allows for relatively easy upgrades and limits bug issues it's horribly inefficient. I don't know if this supports your argument or mine.
In any case, it will not be possible to support background music with the current Qriocity, or many other requested features unless Sony modifies the PS3 OS. This in part explains why it's taking so long for this ecosystem/browser upgrade to be released. The survey questions a couple of messages above confirm a rewrite of applications and possibly the XMB.
2) Sony for the first time has started disclosing what's in the PS3 and is using code that is so new it's not finished. You don't think that says something?
androvsky said:
But considering Sony execs won't even confirm or deny that the Playstation Suite is coming to PS3, I'm not going to assume anything when Sony itself probably doesn't know where it's going.
Playstation Suite is coming to the PS3, that was stated then retracted. This I expect is typical Sony in that they don't release information. What is Playstation Suite? Is it coming to the PS3? That should be an obvious yes as Playstation Suite is a suite of applications to sell Sony games and media as well as certification that a platform will run Sony Games. Anyone think that is not going to happen for the PS3?
3) "when Sony it'self doesn't know where it's going"; a recurring theme in many posts and very inaccurate. I too felt this way as Sony does everything without telling us why, no timetable etc. This makes us feel like they don't know what they are doing. I have posted multiple examples of Sony patents like the
2009 WebGL patent and others that show that Sony does know where it's going. There is Collabora getting a PS3 dev kit in 2007.....In light of that you have to upgrade your opinion of Sony management. They do know where they are going.
If Playview is using webkit support libraries, it's showing at cebit in 2009 (Edit: The name and features were patented in 2010 but an infinite picture database and gigabyte VERY high resolution picture viewing application was shown at cebit in 2009.) means that Sony started work on the PS3 webkit support libraries prior to 2009. That Sony understood the implications in webkit being on multiple platforms early on.
Edit: Marlin
Gstreamer Ultraviolet DRM was released in
2009 too. This is an important point in that the PDF mentions Sony as one of the Founding members of the Marlin Group and that the PS3 uses Marlin DRM. So sometime before the 2009 release of the PDF Sony had decided on a browser, either Firefox, Opera or webkit, all of which use Gstreamer. That Gstreamer would be a part of the PS3 OS.
Two patents related to browsers and the IPTV DRM player in 2009!
Webkit and support libraries on multiple platforms is a HUGE development! It is going to change the whole industry! Gnome 3.2 browser desktop Shell is a reflection of what is going to happen as is Android and iOS. Cross platform support for applications is now Open Source.
androvsky said:
Remember how there was a major rebranding to go along with the Slim launch? It was something extra to make the brand as well as the system feel fresher and to get people talking. I'd expect something fairly interesting in the next firmware around the same time the price drop hits for the same reasons.
Again, you could be right but since there has been no news of a die size reduction that could allow a hardware refresh to reduce the price and the Indian Sony rep stating that there wouldn't be one for Gamescom, I don't expect a price drop but I do expect Firmware updates to, as you state above; "to get people talking" and add consumer perceived value to the PS3.
Edit:
Indian Sony rep said:
"Well, if there was a price drop coming at Gamescom, I'd know. There is, however, a new PS3 chassis being discussed. A slightly different design, but from what I can tell, not much difference in functionality." Rumors of a PS3 price drop have been swirling around, particularly for the upcoming Cologne event.
A new PS3 chassis design + the Digitimes PS4 rumor; This might be a PS3 hardware refresh @ 32nm rather than a PS4. Current PS3 is Humpty-Dumpty cracked and can not be un-hacked. Releasing a new PS3 with more memory and USB3 or dedicated Kinect like interface will have high end current owners purchasing a new PS3 with new encryption keys. The 20 million first year sales figure would support this as would the PS3 OS rewrite I've been speculating.
EDIT: The changes to the PS3 OS could allow it to do everything a redesigned PS3 with more memory could do just slightly slower (using Hard Disk swap) or with less detailed shader resolution (similar to the difference between PS3 and Vita games of the same title). This would be a requirement as Sony has said they will not provide any features in an upgrade that would obsolete older PS3s.
Some of the rumors of the hardware in the PS4 have .28nm die as necessary to reduce power and heat. Foundries have announced low yealds at that die size and have delayed timetables for many coming CPU SOC and GPUs. This might impact the Vita also. So a PS4 release at the end of this year is VERY unlikely but a release of a 32nm PS3 is possible. The PS3 cell is risc and RSX is simple enough that they might have transistor densities that would allow yealds at 28nm to be economical.
Digitimes said:
Sony to start production of PS4 at end of 2011, say Taiwan makers
Sony will have Taiwan-based partners begin production of PlayStation 4 (PS4) featuring body movement-based control like Kinect at the end of 2011 for launch in 2012, according to Taiwan-based component makers.
Foxconn and Pegatron Technology, assemblers of PS3, will undertake assembly of PS4 as well, the sources pointed out. The planned shipment volume of PS4 in 2012 is at least 20 million units, the sources indicated.
androvsky said:
Now that I think about it, Sony's OS people are probably busy with Vita, so whatever the PS3 gets will either be something they've been sitting on for a while, or less likely, some early cross-platform stuff.
I'd guess that PS3 Glib and openGl support for Cairo were done by Sony Japan, PS3 webkit and support libraries by Sony US (Geoff and team) but the Sony Vita port is being done in the UK. The reasons for this guess is that PS3 Glib and OpenGL for Cairo would have to be optimized for the Cell which is best done by the same Software engineers that ported and optimized the PS3 kernel for the Cell processor.
There are only three Sony Linux guys and I've read Geoff's name and seen his picture at EU webkit hackfests as early as April 2010, his name is also on the webkit disclosures. I've seen two other names associated with the webkit port to the PS3 and all three have Sony US email addresses.
Parts of the Vita port are very similar to the Sugar interface from OLPC (from functionality) which was written by an employee of Redhat in one day. I don't think that it's going to be difficult to write the Vita OS given the core is generic Gnome Mobile eLinux and was already ported to Arm processors.
Summary: Your comments show a comprehensive grasp of the issues involved, probably greater than my own. But I feel they are colored by an impression that Sony does not know what it's doing. That in my opinion is in error and is probably the only difference in our understanding of what's coming. You could still be correct though,
it depends on Sony <grin>.