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PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news
- Thread starter CozMick
- Start date
why do you people keep coming in this thread just to take shots at the guy for posting what he think is going on?
it's not like he is in every thread doing this he stays in this thread & post it's not hurting you if you don't want to see it just stay out of the thread or just put him on you ignore list it's real simple.
it's not like he is in every thread doing this he stays in this thread & post it's not hurting you if you don't want to see it just stay out of the thread or just put him on you ignore list it's real simple.
OgTheClever
Member
Is there a way to put the thread on the ignore list as well?onQ123 said:
jeff_rigby
Banned
You missed 90% of what I was saying!funkystudent said:
A large part of the Sony ecosystem is network related.jeff_rigby said:
Withnail said:
Withnail and /XX/ understand this and their posts reflect this fact. Network connected Sony TVs and Blu-ray players, Cameras with WiFi, S1 and S2 able to WiFi connect with a camera and transfer pictures (with DLNA) and then display on a Sony TV with DLNA, State of the Art Browsers in Network connected Sony products (including the PS3) and Movies, Music, Emagazines, Ultraviolet DRM and more.
More is coming using the abilities in Webkit browsers, (cross platform) WebGL games coming and like Playview (web technology) able to be played outside a Browser. It's starting for Sony this season.
The above also implies changes to Sony websites and of course the PS3 GTKwebkit browser turned on (10% of the post).
Edit: WebGL games outside a browser (full screen) but using webcore frees up extra memory not needed to support the GTK toolkit, parts of Glib needed active to support GTK as well as the browser front end. Webcore does not need to be connected to the Internet to be used.
On the XMB the GTK toolkit can be used to support webkit based WINDOWS applications like a mini-wordprocessor, Email editor, Calender or windows to display HTML information. The Sony published GTKwebkit diff files do have changes that indicate that the PS3 browser will use GTK toolkit for dialog boxes and more. It will probably be full screen.Dr.Xym said:
Anyone looked at the Life with Playstation recently? Pressing and holding square then scrolling down can take you to a Sony Game category that has many PS1 games displayed with on select, videos of gameplay. This I expect is soon going to be on-line and some, since they appear to all be PS1 or PSP level games might be the coming PS Suite games.
Other features in Life with Playstation use the Netfront browser and Google Maps now breaks I guess because Google as stated after August 17th will not support older browsers for some features.
S1 and S2 now have names S1 becomes S and S2 becomes P. Seems they support both Flash (speculation) and Adobe Air as well as Android. http://discover.store.sony.com/tablet/#intro
So I could have been correct early on about Sony using Air to support applications and Ultraviolet on Android but not for the PS3 and later speculation that Gstreamer would be ported to Android to support Ultraviolet could be wrong but correct for the PS3.
I can see no other reason for including Adobe Air on an Android platform than to support Ultraviolet DRM or PS Suite or both. For Android, O3D or Adobe Air would work for PS Suite but since Air is on every platform it's the better choice. Edit: Looks like PS Suite will be something like Mono as it requires C# and runs on an engine.
Could Air applications be coming to the PS3....Android applications? Could PS Suite be an Air application? Who knows now....... This is one of the problems with trying to predict how Sony is going to implement features by functionality when the W3C is creating browser specifications to duplicate Flash functionality and Air is just Flash outside a browser and Air for embedded platforms can share a platform's webkit javascript engine. Air for Android and iOS = Air for Embedded.
More than half the work to port Air for embedded to the PS3 has already been done with the Webkit javascript engine port. I seem to remember saying that a year ago...ago...ago <grin>.
androvsky are you sure PS3 firmware 3.5 and Adobe Server 3.5 streams is just a coincidence? <grin>
PSP Firmware 3.5 supported receiving video and audio streams from the PS3 and Firmware 6.35 for the PSP from the Internet.http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158082 said:
There are too many uses for gstreamer and it's much better for use in game than Air or Flash. In this case it's again Collabora providing Flash server 3.5 stream functionality using Gstreamer so that a webkit port using gstreamer would duplicate Flash functionality.
These are Adobe Air apps that can be embedded in an Android wrapper and sold in the Android store or in a Vita-PS3 wrapper and sold in the Sony store or in a Air wrapper, iOS, etc.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/sony/8636440/Sonys-200000-Adobe-Android-app-challenge.html said:
And here is where I have a lack of knowledge, is an Air application on an Android platform any faster or more powerful than an Android application (Android O3D would seem to support a NO)? So the choice by Sony to target Air is what depending on the answer? Air is cross platform (Open Screen Project) to just about everything while Android is just Android. Adobe Air and Flash are already supported by the Vita CPU & GPU but the PS3 would be a custom write and would come later and if PS Suite is Air then Sony comments that it is coming later make sense. Edit: C# and Mono
jeff_rigby
Banned
GNOME 3.2 to feature "web application mode" Again, Ubuntu Linux will have the Gnome 3.2 desktop shell and by default the same GTKwebkit we will have (front end browser will be different). The Gnome 3.2 desktop shell is a browser desktop. The Gnome 3.2 shell supports both Cairo and Cairo-Clutter applications (Clutter is an upper level version of Cairo with more features. The Google Chrome OS uses Clutter as does MeeGo.) The webkit core is identical on all platforms but the support on a platform for webkit can vary. In this case the PS3 and Gnome Shell 3.2 support for GTKwebkit is nearly identical (Gnome Mobile libraries). It follows that what is possible on Gnome 3.2 is possible on the PS3 provided Sony is supporting a XMB browser desktop and it looks like they are doing this.
No one reading and understanding what these features in Gnome 3.2 imply? This is big! If handled properly, it could be big for Sony in PS3 user perceived value.
http://iloveubuntu.net/empathy-32-probably-feature-complex-log-viewer-fancy-new-ui-and-more
Pulse Audio echo cancellation finished and testing. Was probably part of PS3 Firmware 3.7 and it was too large to allow Xgame Chat.
Gnome's Media Explorer works similar to the PS3 XMB. There are differences but a couple make sense. 1) Movies should start with a default frame display and advance at the bottom which disappears in a few seconds but can be brought up when the cursor is moved off the bottom of the screen. Pressing triangle requires knowledge of the feature.
I can understand now why Sony does not have a File chooser for AV. It simplifies the UI for the user but makes the setup more difficult when trying to access files from a networked PC. The DLNA 1.5 controller feature I think is going to address this. Still I think it's time to also include a file browser/chooser.
Edit: This is what can be done on a browser desktop. Will we get this feature; there are several issues (save, load and windows) that Sony would have to implement in the PS3 OS, simple to do really but it would also open up the PS3 to third party apps that don't have to come through the PS Store. But so does the browser, this "Save as App" makes it more convenient. Web apps can be run off-line. For me, this one feature would make up for the loss of other OS Linux. Will it happen......I'd have to say no, not without a push from us.
No one reading and understanding what these features in Gnome 3.2 imply? This is big! If handled properly, it could be big for Sony in PS3 user perceived value.
http://iloveubuntu.net/empathy-32-probably-feature-complex-log-viewer-fancy-new-ui-and-more
Pulse Audio echo cancellation finished and testing. Was probably part of PS3 Firmware 3.7 and it was too large to allow Xgame Chat.
Gnome's Media Explorer works similar to the PS3 XMB. There are differences but a couple make sense. 1) Movies should start with a default frame display and advance at the bottom which disappears in a few seconds but can be brought up when the cursor is moved off the bottom of the screen. Pressing triangle requires knowledge of the feature.
I can understand now why Sony does not have a File chooser for AV. It simplifies the UI for the user but makes the setup more difficult when trying to access files from a networked PC. The DLNA 1.5 controller feature I think is going to address this. Still I think it's time to also include a file browser/chooser.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Thanks,onQ123 said:
Speculation should be challenged but with facts or other plausible theories. Pot shots that do not add anything to the discussion are not appreciated.
I've upped my estimate of accuracy from 80% to 90% after reviewing PS3 Firmware features from 1.8 on. From functionality PS3 firmware 3.0 contained an unfinished port of Cairo, gstreamer, pulse audio and glib. This has very strong support from a number of angles.
1) Collabora received a PS3 developer kit Edit November 2007
2) PS3 Firmware 3.0 was released September 2009 Looks like it's using Cairo
3) Marlin Gstreamer DRM which in the PDF states it's used by the PS3 released 2009.
4) Playview was first shown September 2009 and March 2010 at Cebit and uses web technology (Shown on a PS3 and PSP) <two Collabora secret projects> Edit: removed SVG, it's web technology supported by web kit support libraries Gstreamer with Cairo bindings.
All the above could use the support libraries for a GTKwebkit port.
5) Firmware 3.5 (September 2010 contained a webkit javascript engine that requires Cairo
6) Some streaming DRM is needed for Hulu and other IPTV.
7) Sony disclosed GTKwebkit and listed the support libraries March 2011 after webkit and Cairo were declared stable and the WebGL standards were finalized. Gstreamer and Pulse audio were not finished, had not reached 1.0 status.
All the above are facts! The following is speculation.
8) Firmware 3.7 contained a 1.0 finished version of Pulse audio and updates to the audio portion of Gstreamer (probably 1.0).
9) Firmware 3.7 also included a new Gstreamer blu-ray player by Collabora from the separate OEM branch. This uses the gstreamer core in the PS3 and that is 1.0 finished. Plugins are still being updated (PS3 plugins would be partly custom Sony so may be finished).
Firmware 3.0 was the start of a total rewrite of the PS3 OS. Firmware 4.0 will be the end product of the major changes. Support for this is all over NeoGAF in discussion of features in various PS3 firmware versions and in this thread.
androvsky's arguments can be used in reverse now. Knowing that the functionality in the webkit libraries can support the features we see in firmware 3.0 and later, why would Sony have used custom code or other libraries when they knew they were going to port GTKwebkit to the PS3 and would have those libraries in the PS3 eventually.
He who does not want to be named from the Beyond 3D 2010 thread HTML5 on consoles stated that Sony must port webkit to the PS3 to be relevant; "the consoles have no choice but to follow suit. HTML5 is an important and powerful media platform". This was what prompted me to join this thread. It was an obvious business NEED for Sony. I and others assumed it was coming but did not put together that Sony was already half way through a porting process. Support libraries fully integrated into the PS3 with the final step the webkit port. A wait for finished versions of support libraries and webkit made this a 2 year project. You also have to understand that the PS3 did not have a full OS, only the bare minimum to support games and as such could not support an easy port...there was nothing there to support webkit.
IF you look at the comments caused by this thread "Big upgrade rumored for a long time" you can understand why Sony did not announce their plans. Much of the ridicule I'm receiving is generated by the Long time it's taking causing disbelief.
Yep. Well, it was November 2007, but close enough. Still can't tell from that post if Sony sent them a free kit to get some software made, or if Collabora purchased one so they could play around with a Cell+RSX, since it was just before the price cut on dev kits was publicly known. Hopefully they got the discount!jeff_rigby said:
Okay, here is the main reason I'm replying to this post. "Looks like it's using Cairo" is not only not a fact, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I've seen you make this assertion before, how does one tell if an application (XMB in this case?) that's already using accelerated draws is using Cairo, OpenGL, or direct writes to the RSX? It's especially confusing since Cairo itself is an abstraction layer, and could be using OpenGL to handle drawing.
Well, the pdf I found merely states that the PS3 (and PSP, and Sony TVs) use Marlin DRM, which was widely known. It also states that the gstreamer plugin is one of many options for PC playback of Marlin-encrypted videos. It does not state that the PS3 uses gstreamer. Is there a PDF that says otherwise?
I honestly don't know here, but where was it stated Playview uses SVG? A lot of what it's doing is smooth scaling of large photos, which isn't what SVG is really designed for.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Are you using the Index page I created or Google? I assume you are taking this quote in a different light:androvsky said:Yep. Well, it was November 2007, but close enough. Still can't tell from that post if Sony sent them a free kit to get some software made, or if Collabora purchased one so they could play around with a Cell+RSX, since it was just before the price cut on dev kits was publicly known. Hopefully they got the discount!
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27618869&postcount=392
1) PS3 Developer kit Sent us
2) Partial return to the gaming industry. How do you partially return to the gaming industry? With Applications yes games No.
3) And who is Tim = In his day-to-day work at Collabora Multimedia, Tim often integrates GStreamer into applications and devices
I too went through your logic path and found it did not fully support my position until I went one step further and looked for who Tim was. With that understood the underlined words totally support my take. After this date Collabora changed to a Multimedia Support company. Gstreamer is the perfect Open source library choice for Sony a multi-media company. Look at the Collabora projects page and assume all are going to be in the PS3. How many can be confirmed to this date?
Don't you find it interesting that I posted about Collabora creating a blu-ray player and within days with PS3 3.7 a new blu-ray player is in the PS3. Gstreamer 1.0 locked and Dolby 7.1 and 3-D blu-ray menus for the new blu-ray player are implemented in 3.70.
This is a lock for me. Collabora was sent a PS3 developer kit to see what they could do to integrate Gstreamer and Gstreamer with Cairo bindings into the PS3 OS to support a GTKwebkit browser. This inititated by the Alp Tolker (Collabora) GTKwebkit Sept lecture two months before receiving the Dev kit in November.
Edit: And androvsky, all Sony 2011 Networked TVs and blu-ray players have gstreamer and Cairo disclosures and are not using them for the browser. Add this to a "partial return to the gaming industry" for the PS3 and Vita and you have full support across the board for Sony Networked platforms.
If you read the entire PDF and understand that it primarily applies to IPTV (all examples are IPTV) and the PS3 was mentioned as being supported by Marlin.
The implications in this PDF are as follows:
1) There is a separate OEM DRM branch of Gstreamer Player in addition to the open source. The Collabora Blu-ray player must be from this separate branch also.
2) Knowing the above which version of Marlin IPTV player is in the PS3? Of course it has to be Gstreamer (a Netscape plugin for the GTKwebkit browser which is an accepted standard that could also be used outside a browser in the PS3 IPTV applications (Same plugin standard that Flash would use)). You arn't going to insist that Access (Air for embedded) or Playready (Silverlight) was used like I did before we knew about Gstreamer and Marlin DRM.
Edit: I did some research and as of Feb 2010 the gstreamer plugin for Chromium was not using the system gstreamer codecs and core gstreamer; Collabora blogs were talking about Google needing to fix this. Opera appears to take advantage of a platforms gstreamer core and codecs but Opera's gstreamer is not a plugin.
3) It's also possible using this PDF to support the PS3 being Linux. (Support not prove, Gstreamer is cross platform so it could support something else that was not mentioned.)
Yeah, you can't use the pictures...Pixman is a part of Cairo and that is what is used for pictures. Opps:
OK, I see where I made a mistake. It's gstreamer with Cairo bindings which has support for Pixman and SVG not Playview SVG which can be misleading and wrong in some cases. You can support SVG in Playview (guess) but most to this point are pictures or video as you stated which would use the Pixman code in the Cairo library of OpenGL calls. Cairo is primarily associated with SVG but it contains parts of a number of other OS libraries that all (PS3) render through a library of OpenGL routines.jeff_rigby said:
I saved this for last as it's the hardest to prove...it's the sum of a number of observations.
1) It does look like it's using Cairo. The "What's New" is using Pixman like functionality (trapezoid manipulation of pictures) which is a part of Cairo. (Yes custom code is possible) And another clue, hover (selection) is by Zooming.
2) We were told (at that time) an effort was being made to reduce the size of the PS3 OS footprint. Cairo can reduce the size of the OS footprint and still support more shader features and animation. The PS3 original theme changed with 3.0 and included fog (Shader feature) and X, O & triangle characters floating in the background (Animation) but used less memory (XML with Cairo bindings). Gameside an even greater effort to reduce memory footprint. The XMB as Cairo SVG icons.
3) Torne (March 2010) looks like it is using SVG text and Gstreamer. Eyepet is using Gstreamer with Cairo bindings (augmented reality from functionality) before October 2010. Both these and Play TV which I believe is only using gstreamer were not allowed into the US, I assume because of copyright law differences.
4) Firmware 3.0 2009. 2009 was a big year with Sony patents for WebGL games, Marlin IPTV DRM, Playview (Web technology) see: http://gizmodo.com/5354574/sonys-high+res-image-enlargement-engine-gives-ps3-psp-infinite-zoooooom and follow the links to Gigapan (HTML5) or Deep Zoom which is using Microsoft's Silverlight, Ajax and XML and the example given is the Hard Rock Website. http://timemachine.gigapan.org/wiki/Main_Page So some deep thought about the Internet and Web technologies was taking place before 2009. As I've shown, Sony was in contact with Collabora in late 2007.
Why this issue is important is that the webkit port and webGL will work better if Gstreamer and Cairo are native to the PS3 and have been fully integrated with the PS3 OS and hardware accelerated codecs. The PS3 is a special case for webkit integration in that it was missing the OS tools to support webkit.
The GTKwebkit support libraries were chosen because they result in a smaller OS footprint and at the same time more features. An effort to duplicate Flash technology with open source which was one of the goals of the W3C resulted in the development of Open source webkit support libraries that supported (gstreamer with cairo bindings) augmented reality. And guess what, Eyepet and features Sony is touting for the Vita feature augmented reality which is supported by webkit support libraries.
This is important so I'll state it again, Cairo includes code from a number of Open Source software projects to include the rendering functionality needed for the W3C recommendations. A Gstreamer player was developed and integrated with Marlin DRM to provide the functionality of a Flash Video stream (3.5) player. And Playview as web technology can be viewed on another platform with Air for embedded.
Being informed of the above by Collabora in 2007 or realizing it themselves Sony set out to rewrite the PS3 OS to incorporate these new feature and at the same time reduce the size of the PS3 OS. In parallel, Collabora and others were doing the same with the Linux Gnome shell.
I realize that some can still have doubts until something comes out of Sony but it's a stretch to assume the above is not the case not the other way around.
Androvsky, Sony had PS3 OpenGL sometime 2008-2009, I remember reading about it in a GDC developer slide show. Porting CairoGL to the PS3 required almost no changes as seen in the Sony webkit LGPL disclosure (Confirms OpenGL and Cairo). The XMB is XML and there is a XML library with Cairo bindings. Changing the XMB to use CairoGL should have been pretty easy. Gstreamer would have been harder but they had help from Collabora. Gstreamer and GTK toolkit required a glib port to the PS3.
jeff_rigby
Banned
More screenshots of the Vita Browser Another site slightly easier to use.
In the Following picture notice the Picture icons on the left which are a part of the Sony playstation site and are menu links to different parts of the Playstation site. This I expect is part of the New design.
Browser control icons are on the right and of course are SVG.
My opinion: Now that we are finally seeing Vita browser screens I would assume, since I believe the Vita and PS3 are using the same GTKwebkit and both had to wait till Gstreamer 1.0, Pulse audio 1.0 and GTK 3.2 were released, that we will see the PS3 GTKwebkit browser soon. Vita and PS3 may be using a similar looking browser front end written with the same GTK toolkit and Cairo.
In the Following picture notice the Picture icons on the left which are a part of the Sony playstation site and are menu links to different parts of the Playstation site. This I expect is part of the New design.
On the left a rolodex list of SVG Picture icons to navigate the New PSN.
Browser control icons are on the right and of course are SVG.
My opinion: Now that we are finally seeing Vita browser screens I would assume, since I believe the Vita and PS3 are using the same GTKwebkit and both had to wait till Gstreamer 1.0, Pulse audio 1.0 and GTK 3.2 were released, that we will see the PS3 GTKwebkit browser soon. Vita and PS3 may be using a similar looking browser front end written with the same GTK toolkit and Cairo.
jeff_rigby
Banned
staticneuron
Member
jeff_rigby said:
So if they are ever able to lower the OS footprint again, do you think they can have Xgame chat?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Sony Internet site 4K is just the beginning.Red UFO said:
Notice there is no picture for the Home 4K source. A media server can now be used but I believe the next product out in 2012 will be a 4K blu-ray probably using the GE plastic and 500Gig with full backward compatibility with current blu-ray. Cost for the 4K player in line with high end blu-ray.
In 2009 articles were speculating on the use of the then breaking news that GE's plastic division (purchased by the Saudi family) had produced a plastic for blu-ray disks that had a high enough reflectivity to support holographic blu-ray which would allow up to 1 Terra-byte disks. The speculated use was for a Wii HD, PS4 and Xbox720 and projected release dates of those new platforms 2011 when GE said that consumer drives might be available.
Edit: New News! /2011/07/ge-unveils-500gb-micro-holographic-discs-with-blu-ray-speeds/
Projection from 2009 GE news release would have both PS4 and Xbox720 using these drives.
New drives will be backwardly compatible, cost about the same as current blu-ray drives but will be able to read disks with more than 10 times more information (500 gig and up).
4K media support in the PS4 follows to fill out the 4K ecosystem chart above.
Thanks to Patsu on Beyond 3D
Sony F65 (8K down sampled to 4K) image sensor better than film. If you look at the purple 2K and compare it to the blue 2K down converted from 4K you can see the Picture detail that is gained with this method. The same I think applies to 4K blu-ray down converted to 2K for current 1080P TVs.
Sony 8K video sensor: The new F65 sensor is reported to have 20MP resolution and send 16-bit raw data at speed of 20Gbps. The optical array area is 24.7 x 13.1 mm, diagonal is 28 mm.
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2011/09/sony-image-sensor-business-presentation.html Thanks to onQ123
Sony, if the business plan above is accurate, is going to push consumer camera resolutions both still and video to above 4K with 3-D and 4K in the same video cameras. Consumer cameras will then need a display platform in the living room, something that can edit and play/display 4K+ resolutions and 3-D = PS4 With FOSS Gstreamer editor possibly PiViTi.
Sony is projecting a massive increase in Cmos image sensor production and a move to UHD. This confirms the Nagasaki plant purchase was for increased image sensor production but the F65 is a 120 fps at 4K and 60fps at 8k resolution = 20Gbps which is going to need fast memory and processor....cell? HDMI can not support these speeds so Display port a certainty in coming 4K TVs and PS4.
Playview is a 4K by 2K viewer and package for distributing media. This would seem to indicate a coming resolution Standard for Sony. Playview like players would allow viewing of 4K media on lower resolution TVs via zooming.
Edit: Confirmed, PS3 to display 4K stills in early 2012
Sony PDF on 4K Projection
Sony pushing and financing 4K Digital theater systems
Sony is treating and supporting commercial Theatre operations as an Ecosystem
Sony 8K Monster CineAlta F65 now officially official!http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=2555 said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28868088&postcount=549
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28868474&postcount=552
Edit: US already planning a transition to ATSC 3.0 4k & possibly 8K broadcast TV. I still remember all the 4K is not happening arguments. This is made possible by h.265.
Sony has a PDF outlining what's possible using the existing 6 Mhz Broadcast TV bandwidth and the new H.265 codec. 4K TV channels, Multi-viewpoint, full 1080P 3-D, multi-channel Web plus advertising.
Those all appear to be open-source projects so the about page in the PS3's system menu should tell us everything; so, none of them? Yes, it's interesting that Collabora had a PS3 devkit, but keep in mind these are things under the "Facts" heading in your earlier post.jeff_rigby said:
No. Your evidence is that Collabora will talk about blu-ray at a conference in October, and somehow that translates into Sony dumping their highly optimized playback software they've been working on for years? Keep in mind there's a lot of patents and licenses surrounding blu-ray, and if Collabora is going to be doing open-source blu-ray playback, they'll have to be extremely careful about handling any proprietary projects with the same people. Collabora might not able to work on a closed-source implementation at all without tainting the open-source project.
Also, blu-ray is a very complex format. Sony managed to move to this new version without a huge slew of compatibility issues with existing releases; this suggests they didn't completely replace the player.
I'm talking about the PSN Video Store, it uses Marlin. The infrastructure for Marlin DRM video playback (including streaming) has been on the PS3 for years. And I did notice that the PS3 was listed separately from IPTV. If Sony adds gstreamer for just webkit apps (and maybe PS Suite?), that's a different discussion.
Implications don't matter here, you were talking facts, and said: "3) Marlin Gstreamer DRM which in the PDF states it's used by the PS3 released 2009."
No, the PDF does not state the PS3 uses Gstreamer, it's still your speculation. Indeed, the PDF states there are many playback options, of which, gstreamer is one. Adding Marlin to Sony's existing playback software might've been easier than switching to gstreamer; since it would be a proprietary solution not available to third-party licensing, the PDF wouldn't mention it. It's not just speculation, it's a bit of a stretch.
And you're still not showing us how it's a fact that PlayView uses any of those libraries.
Yes, custom code is possible. Those effects are easily done by slapping a texture on a rectangle; an intern could do that using native RSX calls with little effort.
Cairo can reduce the size of the OS footprint compared to what? Compared to other open-source graphics middleware as seen on a typical linux install, probably. Compared to using libraries that directly write to the RSX, adding Cairo would almost certainly increase the size of the OS since Cairo still has to talk to the RSX.
Cairo is probably being used by the webkit port because it means they don't have to port the GTK to use native PS3 routines; it'll save them a lot of trouble to simply use Cairo's draw to image option and then send the finished image to the RSX. There's no reason to add Cairo to the rest of the OS since it'll just be an extra layer taking up more space.
Do you have any evidence at all that Eyepet, Torne, or Play TV are using gstreamer?
It seems like you keep going back and forth between Cairo (and gstreamer, and other open-source projects) being used for the future webkit apps and possible PS Suite, and the PS3 OS and XMB already being rewritten a while ago to use them. I don't have a problem with asserting with the former; Sony's already disclosed that the webkit port uses GTK and Cairo, and they'd be reasonable parts of the PS Suite.
However, taking the news that Collabora is going to talk about blu-ray playback in a month and turning that into Sony replaced their playback software in 3.70 is a huge stretch. So is saying that a few new 3D effects being added to the XMB in 3.0 means that Sony added Cairo to the XMB. Or that Marlin = gstreamer. Anyway, I've spent too long on this post as it is, gotta grab lunch.
jeff_rigby
Banned
No. There is a separate branch of Gstreamer for OEM. Collabora works for Car companies porting Gstreamer, Marlin uses a Gstreamer player for DRM, you think they are open source?androvsky said:
RE: "Gstreamer and Blu-ray players", remember when Sony and the rest went Blu-ray 3-D, PS3 with firmware 3.5 and only Sony Blu-ray and PS3 did not support loss-less audio...well now with Firmware 3.7 we now have 3-D lossless audio and can support Dolby 7.1 on a new USB headphone. (This at the same time Gstreamer open source goes 1.0 and now supports 3-D I.E. Faster using fewer resources.)
I find it interesting that BOTH Sony 3-D blu-ray players (Which have gstreamer in their disclosures) and the PS3 3-D Blu-ray player could not support lossless audio. Again my speculation could be behind events, Firmware 3.5 may have contained a Gstreamer blu-ray player that was not finished and with 3.7 it is or Gstreamer integrated into the PS3 and Blu-Ray players could not support loss-less audio at that time.
Firmware 3.0 was a MAJOR upgrade to the PS3. The following could have been Sony using the webkit support libraries.
Cairo
Support for new Dynamic Custom Themes
[Information Board] replaced by a [What's New] feature.
The default theme has been changed to an updated version of the 'Original' waves theme (the original theme has been renamed 'Classic').
Pulse Audio
[Audio Multi-Output] allows audio output through multiple connectors (e.g. HDMI and optical) simultaneously.
Added the ability to upsample audio stored on the internal or USB hard drive to 88.2 kHz or 176.4 kHz.
Background audio playback is disabled in the [Internet Browser] and [Photo Gallery] when the audio upsampling feature is enabled.[41]
Gstreamer
During Video playback, the right analog stick can be used to play content in slow playback, fast reverse, and fast forward.
Echo Canceller added to Accessory Settings.
Under Remote Play Settings you can now manually set a device (such as a PSP system or Sony Ericsson Aino) to be used for remote play.[39]
Again, Collabora does open source and OEM closed-proprietary.
A good point and only Sony not being able to support lossless audio on 3-D blu-ray players suggest that the core code might be Sony's and Gstreamer is being integrated with it rather than a totally new player.
Really, a stretch? Look again at the Marlin examples...the only choice is gstreamer. There is a legitimate argument that the PDF is a blueprint of already tested methods to be implemented and the PS3 did not have at that time (2009) an adaptive bitrate gstreamer DRM player but 2009 PLANS were for such a player. A PS3 gstreamer core and pulse audio needed.
From Functionality and knowing Sony knew they would be using these libraries for GTKwebkit. Knowing that the functionality in the webkit libraries can support the features we see in firmware 3.0 and later, why would Sony have used custom code or other libraries when they knew they were going to port GTKwebkit to the PS3 and would have those libraries in the PS3 eventually.
Sony had PS3 OpenGL sometime 2008-2009, I remember reading about it in a GDC developer slide show. Porting CairoGL to the PS3 required almost no changes as seen in the Sony webkit LGPL disclosure (Confirms OpenGL and Cairo). The XMB is XML and there is a XML library with Cairo bindings. Changing the XMB to use CairoGL for rendering should have been pretty easy. Gstreamer would have been harder but they had help from Collabora. Gstreamer and GTK toolkit required a glib port to the PS3.
I'll give you that it only looks like parts of the XMB are using Cairo (which is what I said) if you will consider that Meemo, MeeGo, The Chrome OS, iOS and Android are using Cairo or something similar for their drawing routines because it is more efficient. Your point that it would be less efficient to use an upper level library to draw rather than direct to RSX might be correct in some cases but not for a more complete OS that must support applications as witnessed by all other handheld operating systems mentioned above. And after compiling the cairo upper level language isn't it direct RSX code?
We have been told that the PS3 is getting many of the Vita "Network" applications and my take is that the PS3 OS now supports those applications but didn't before 3.0. Where one draws the line as to when these webkit support libraries were ported to the PS3 is probably irrelevant to most. We go back to my belief that Sony is using webkit support libraries and has since 3.0 and yours that Sony will not use them in the PS3 OS beyond supporting a webkit browser and perhaps multiple one at a time applications. There will be XMB features that will prove this issue.
Edit: Quite a few posts ago I mentioned PiViTi a gstreamer based video editor which at that time was written using Python and required X windows support. I stated that we should look for Collabora to upgrade PiViTi to use GTK3 so that it could be ported without Xwindows and we might then see a more robust and feature rich video editor on the PS3; It's happening. Sony will want to support 3D video editing and with Gstreamer 1.0 this is possible so I expect the PS3 video editor to be replaced with a newer version and at the same time more features.
Edit2: Cairo had a stable release and Sony disclosed it, Webkit had a stable release and Sony disclosed it. Gstreamer will have a 1.0 stable release and I predict that Sony will disclose it (unless they purchased the rights to use it from Fluendo/Collabora). GTK tool kit will have a 3.2 release soon and I predict that Sony will disclose it at that time. glibc apparently does not require disclosure. Geoff mentioned that more disclosures are coming.
jeff_rigby
Banned
The Playstation Home Loot Space Theatre is using an adaptive bitrate player. The Loot Space Theatre is new and free so try it out. Sites that support (serve) an adaptive bitrate player will change the served resolution to a lower bit-rate/lower resolution to accommodate slower connections. Sites like NASA that do not have that ability constantly pause for buffer.
Of course I know the PS3 has a Gstreamer adaptive bitrate Marlin DRM player that supports: MP4, MP2TS (Playview US would use), MP4 PDCF which is used for IPTV, Torne, Playview, Home and will be used by the PS3 GTKwebkit browser. Since the GTKwebkit browser will be using Gstreamer it can detect a different codec being used and automatically switch to the correct codec.
Gstreamer conference Oct 25, 2011 subjects I'd suggest reading this page. Professionals using Gstreamer in multiple Linux embedded open and proprietary platforms. Read it here now and in the near future it will be in multiple platforms.
An example:
Of course I know the PS3 has a Gstreamer adaptive bitrate Marlin DRM player that supports: MP4, MP2TS (Playview US would use), MP4 PDCF which is used for IPTV, Torne, Playview, Home and will be used by the PS3 GTKwebkit browser. Since the GTKwebkit browser will be using Gstreamer it can detect a different codec being used and automatically switch to the correct codec.
Gstreamer conference Oct 25, 2011 subjects I'd suggest reading this page. Professionals using Gstreamer in multiple Linux embedded open and proprietary platforms. Read it here now and in the near future it will be in multiple platforms.
An example:
jeff_rigby said:
Marlin is a DRM "solution". It supports Gstreamer multimedia framework (along with several others). That doesn't mean PS3 uses GStreamer. Did you notice Marlin also supports a Windows Media Player plugin. I guess that means PS3 runs Windows Media Player right? I hear Microsoft is working on an Internet Explorer port for PS3!
Jesus, you continue to embarrass yourself.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
This thread... This fucking thread. One man conspiracy kliq.
jeff_rigby
Banned
And the point is the choice is between Gstreamer and a Windows Media player which is limited to Windows platforms so by process of elimination this leaves gstreamer which we know is already being used by Sony in 2011 Network connected Blu-ray players and TVs (From Disclosures) and in the PS3 and used by the GTKwebkit (from Disclosures). Are you suggesting that Sony will have multiple players on the same platform or that Sony might not prefer using the same IP across multiple platforms if possible? It makes sense to use Gstreamer for everything AV related.theBishop said:
I think androvsky would agree with the above. I believe his only problem is with my stating it's a fact.
Edit: Sony change mid stream: PS suite might be Mono
Sony 2011 networked blu-ray player to use Microsoft Playready DRM rather than Marlin
SteveWinwood
Member
I imagine a guy in a tin foil hat running from hotel to hotel with tons of fake names being chased by imaginary Sony agents.shagg_187 said:
jeff_rigby
Banned
Point me to where I have misread one and Sony is using an internal repository not one maintained on the internet, at least the ones that they listed.theBishop said:
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Guys, lay off Jeff already. At least he is bringing useful stuff to this thread.
shagg_187 said:
The curious cat in me decided to check the per-user post counts of this thread, and, well...
And I thought Sculli's 1k+ posts in the de facto Avatar OT was excessive.
Edit: Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen jeff post anywhere else. Actually, I think I may have caught him in another thread not all too long ago, but that may have been a dream.
SteveWinwood
Member
Something something broken clock something twice a day.JaseC said:
JaseC said:
Nope. The first post contained some vague, possibly useful info. Nothing Jeff has posted since #1 has contained useful data. Maybe it was marginally interesting that a Sony engineer has some Webkit check-ins, but Jeff blew that wildly out of proportion. Everything since page 10 is nonsense.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Originally Posted by jeff_rigby:
Point me to where I have misread one and Sony is using an internal repository not one maintained on the internet, at least the ones that they listed.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27026928&postcount=271
Where was I wrong? Your post was correct but you didn't read my cite!
Point me to where I have misread one and Sony is using an internal repository not one maintained on the internet, at least the ones that they listed.
theBishop said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27026928&postcount=271
The + signifies an addition to the Diff file by Sony and I assumed that "RenderThemePOSIX" meant Render Theme is POSIX. Your reply to my post:jeff_rigby said:The following is a Cairo SVG draw routine for a Popup menu. Notice the RendererThemePOSIX, POSIX is the Sony name for the toolkit theme
Quote:
+ // draw popup menu bg
+ cairo_set_source_rgba(cr, RGBA_BG);
+ cairo_rectangle(cr,
+ m_x,
+ m_y + m_h,
+ m_w,
+ m_itemH * m_visibleCount + m_outlineW * 2);
+ cairo_fill(cr);
+
+ // draw popup menu outline
+ cairo_set_source_rgba(cr, RGBA_OUTLINE);
+ cairo_rectangle(cr,
+ m_x,
+ m_y + m_h,
+ m_w,
+ m_itemH * m_visibleCount + m_outlineW * 2);
+ cairo_set_line_width(cr, m_outlineW);
+ cairo_set_line_join(cr, CAIRO_LINE_JOIN_MITER);
+ cairo_stroke(cr);
+#endif
+
+ // set clip area
+ cairo_rectangle(cr, m_x, m_y + m_h + m_outlineW, m_w, m_itemH * m_visibleCount);
+ cairo_clip(cr);
+ cairo_new_path(cr);
+
+ // draw text
+ cairo_select_font_face(cr,
+ "",
+ m_fontIsItalic ? CAIRO_FONT_SLANT_ITALIC : CAIRO_FONT_SLANT_NORMAL,
+ m_fontIsBold ? CAIRO_FONT_WEIGHT_BOLD : CAIRO_FONT_WEIGHT_NORMAL);
+ cairo_set_font_size(cr, m_fontSize);
+
+ for (int i = 0; i < m_itemCount; i++) {
+ if (i == m_selected) {
+#if USE_THEME_IMAGES
+ WebCore::RenderThemePOSIX:
+ WebCore::IntRect((int)(m_x + m_outlineW),
+ (int)(m_visibleY + m_itemH * i),
+ (int)(m_w - m_outlineW * 2),
+ (int)(m_itemH)),
+ 1, 1, 1, 1);
+#else
And my response: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27043948&postcount=289
Where was I wrong? Your post was correct but you didn't read my cite!
jeff_rigby
Banned
Really <sigh> Then there is the email from Geoff Levand stating that the Coming webkit Browser would be a Cairo - Posix port.theBishop said:
I wrote an Email to Geoff Levand (Sony programmer in charge of the Javascript port, his name is in the GNU license disclosure)
On 12/16/2010 10:50 AM, jeff wrote:
Yes, we have a port of webkit that runs on PS3. It
is actually a generic Cairo/POSIX port. You can get
what we have for release here:
http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/pub/webkit/
It is now just javascript core, but we will be releasing
updates with more support in the coming months
jeff_rigby said:
"Sony programmer in charge of the Javascript port" -- Jesus, Exhibit #2398598
Geoff Levand was the official maintainer of "OtherOS", essentially Linux on PS3. This is a link to a port of Webkit to PS3/OtherOS. In the quote you post, he says it's not even a significant modification. Just a stock webkit build drawing to a stock Cairo backend. Nothing to see here, folks.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Geoff WAS until April of 2010 the Linux maintainer, he was transferred to the webkit port. Check the dates on the webkit disclosure and the Email:theBishop said:
This is way after Other OS was removed! Read the Files listed in the cite!
I ASSUMED it was but have found no proof of this. There is an internet article on Sony engineers working on Linux for the PS3, an implication that Sony created Other OS to support Linux for future PS3 applications but nothing concrete. That they called the webkit port POSIX would imply either the PS3 is not Linux and/or they are planning on using the same theme across multiple POSIX platforms. Is there anything you can cite?withnail said:
theBishop; your post brought up a good point. The PS3 disclosures for the coming webkit port and other coming applications can be used to port the same applications to "other OS" Linux (minor changes needed). Big issue is the CairoGL support (requires OpenGL which Sony did not release for Other OS Linux. Other OS was FB (frame buffer)) I've been trying to find a reason for Sony to remove "Other OS" from the PS3. Nothing really sticks....this is another possible.