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[theBishop]

You're correct that Levand was the maintainer of OtherOS. But the quoted email is dated over six months after Sony removed OtherOS from the PS3. Why would they still be doing work for OtherOS at that time?



The PS3 GameOS is also based on Linux btw.

For one, because PS3s-running OtherOS show up in some unexpected places. You might be surprised how many government/military agencies at least experiment with it.

Also, Geoff has continued working on OtherOS in his personal time:
http://git.gitbrew.org/~glevand/ps3/

OtherOS++!

 

[jeff_rigby]

For one, because PS3s-running OtherOS show up in some unexpected places. You might be surprised how many government/military agencies at least experiment with it.

Also, Geoff has continued working on OtherOS in his personal time:
http://git.gitbrew.org/~glevand/ps3/

OtherOS++!

Yup, he was supporting Ubuntu Linux and I believe is still supporting it in his spare time but besides the webkit disclosure being on a SONY site and not Geoffs site , it being Other OS would have it be a Frame Buffer CairoFB not OpenGL Cairo. Again the webkit disclosure shows Cairo is not using a Frame Buffer back end.

CairoFB and gstreamer were already part of Other OS Linux years ago but with older versions. Sony did not release OpenGL or any accelerated drawing support to other OS Linux.

Your cited link http://git.gitbrew.org/~glevand/ps3/

Index of /~glevand/ps3

Name Last modified Size Description
Parent Directory -
cfw/ 06-Aug-2011 22:07 -
doc/ 08-Jul-2011 09:06 -
freebsd/ 15-Aug-2011 13:19 -
linux/ 15-Jul-2011 10:13 -
petitboot/ 08-Jul-2011 06:21 -
pkgs/ 10-Jul-2011 16:44 -
scripts/ 08-Jul-2011 06:21 -

Linux and FreeBSD again. So from multiple indications the PS3 OS could be one of these. Thanks

 

[jeff_rigby]

Motorola is porting the Google V8 javascript engine to GTKwebkit.

Motorola (bought by Google) is busy adjusting WebKit GTK to use the v8 JavaScript engine. https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32452

2011-07-20 Nayan Kumar Konaje <nayankk@motorola.com>
2
3 Port V8 to WebKit-GTK
4
5 This is first of the patches to support building of V8 with
6 WebKit GTK. With this patch configure option is provided to
7 choose to compile either enable or diable SFX.
8

Performance JSC Vs V8
webkit-gtk-jsc-vs-v8-performance-on-arm/

Should Sony update the PS3 and Vita to use this javascript engine? This I guess depends on how V8 performs on the PS3 Cell and for the Vita.

Will this impact the PS3 GTKwebkit release date? A December 17th release date for the Vita gives Sony enough time to port and test V8 for the Vita but I was hoping the PS3 GTKwebkit turn-on for the PS3 would occur next month (October).

Why is Google-Motorola so interested in getting V8 into GTKwebkit? GTKwebkit is going to be the default browser backend for Gnome 3.2 desktop shell, the first browser desktop on Linux. Some connection to Sony's GTKwebkit? Or does Google have a plan for Motorola that would use GTKwebkit and eLinux/gnome in their Cableboxes?

QT likely to use the Google V8 javascript engine in version 5 next year. Qt is the other popular toolkit competing with GTK.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Bad Boy OP with the best summary of Vita features....excellent post

We already know from Sony that many of the Networking Vita applications will make their way into the PS3. It's possible other Vita features will also make their way into the PS3.

In addition to all this, the company announced a collaboration with Nico Nico Douga, a popular YouTube-style video service in Japan that allows user comments to scroll across the screen as videos play. While at launch the Vita will only be able to view videos (with comments embedded and addable via the console), in spring of 2012, Sony plans to allow images/video taken with the Vita's camera to upload to Nico Nico, directly from the handheld.

So I expect this is an updated video editor and uploader for Vita similar to the PS3. At the same time I expect the updated Vita video editor to be ported to the PS3.

 

[klier]

This is the craziest thread I have ever seen in my active years on forums. And that started in 1999.

This Jeff is unbelievable. So much wasted energy and time.

 

[Card Boy]

This is the craziest thread I have ever seen in my active years on forums. And that started in 1999.

This Jeff is unbelievable. So much wasted energy and time.

Thread title should be renamed Jeff Rigby the OT or something. Dude became a member just from this thread i reckon.

 

[Infinite Justice]

This is the craziest thread I have ever seen in my active years on forums. And that started in 1999.

This Jeff is unbelievable. So much wasted energy and time.

There was a thread similar to this but instead of stuff from a browser it was talking how the guts of the PS3 was more powerful than we gave it credit for and the poster was similarly dedicated.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

There was a pretty cool thread on Beyond3D where OP was convinced that Wii had much more RAM that it was reported and went into absurd lengths to prove it.

 

[jeff_rigby]

GTK 3.2 available September 28th Development work on this was recently frozen in preparation for a final release, only bugs found after this freeze would cause modification of the code.

From: Matthias Clasen <mclasen redhat com>
To: gnome-announce-list gnome org, gtk-devel-list gnome org, gtk-app-devel-list gnome org, gtk-list gnome org
Subject: GTK+ 3.1.90
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 18:56:22 -0400
The last development snapshot in the 3.1 cycle. Unless something
major comes up, this release should be considered API-frozen for 3.2.

As I've stated multiple times the Gnome release timetable is Sony's timetable going back to Firmware 3.0. October This makes sense as the Gnome Desktop uses many of the same libraries in GTKwebkit and GTKwebkit is going to be the default browser backend for Gnome Desktop 3.2 and the PS3. Mono, if it's going to be the core of PS Suite is also considered a Gnome application by WiKi. PS Suite also has to wait for these updates (for applications not games) and in addition for Android, the Google NDK/SDK (Feb 2011 Mono update).

Read this Wiki "Gnome Mobile initiative" and follow the links. It provides all the answers to all questions including those brought up by Massa and androvsky (hint Fluendo). You just have to read! Also Read and follow the links in the Index page I created.

The GNOME Mobile & Embedded Initiative (GMAE), also known as GNOME Mobile, is an initiative for developing and promoting the use of the GNOME platform in mobile devices. It was announced at the Embedded Linux Conference in Santa Clara, California on April 19, 2007. Gnome Technologies ATK · Bonobo · D-Bus · GConf · GLib · Keyring · GVFS · GObject · GStreamer · GTK+ · Mono · Pango · Vala

September 2007 Collabora demonstrated Gstreamer with Cairo bindings for GTKwebkit
November 2007 Sony sent a PS3 developer kit to Collabora.
September 28th 2009 PS3 firmware 3.0, according to Hirari, was a complete PS3 OS rewrite to support Media and Networked Media. Video introduction, the Future of digital Media, was played and featured Augmented Reality and overlays which can be supported by Gstreamer with Cairo bindings.
April 2010 3-D games released.
October 2010 Firmware 3.5 contained a webkit javascript engine which Sony disclosures indicate was Target=GDK/GTK using gstreamer for HTML5 video with rendering using CairoGL (Open GL Speculation based on the drawing backend being "PS3" placed in the webkit diff file where OpenGL would have been) 3.5 also contained blu-ray 3-D movie support but both Sony Network connected Blu-ray players (which disclosures have Gnome libraries (Cairo/Pango/Gstreamer/Glib/D-buss)) and the PS3 could not support lossless audio. With Gstreamer 1.0 released, PS3 firmware 3.7 now supports both blu-ray 3-D lossless audio and Dolby 7.1 for audio redirected to the new USB wireless headphones.
March 2011 Sony PS3 webkit disclosures have a complete GNOME GTKwebkit disclosure
My belief is that 3.0 was a rewrite using some of the Gnome libraries, at least Cairo & Gstreamer. Edit: Proved with the Charles Ying post.

The GNOME Project is an effort to create a complete, free and easy-to-use desktop environment for users, as well as a powerful application development framework for software developers. GNOME is part of the GNU Project.

The Sony SNAP developer program was based on GNU/Gnome but objective-C compiled to native language. Mono is Gnome/GTK written in C# with API callable Gnome native libraries like gstreamer but running on a Mono Virtual Machine (Mono also has .NET Microsoft windows support) .

The Mono project has gone beyond both of those components and has developed and integrated third party class libraries, the most important being: Debugging APIs, integration with the Gnome platform (Accessibility, Pango rendering, Gdk/Gtk, Glade, GnomeUI), Mozilla, OpenGL, extensive database support (Microsoft only supports a couple of providers out of the box, while Mono has support for 11 different providers), our POSIX integration libraries and finally the embedded API (used to add scripting to applications and host the CLI,

All GNOME see it yet? It's so obvious. (in hindsight <grin>) GNOME = GNU Network Object Model Environment, I.E. it uses Network libraries to support a Desktop environment; GTKwebkit support libraries.

 

[kvn]

"A new PS3 system software update, v3.72, will be released soon," said Eric Lempel, vice president of the newly formed Sony Network Entertainment.

"With this minor update, system stability during use of PS3 format software and network services has been improved."

Nothing more needs to be said, it's all in this thread.

Yep, nothing in the update, nothing in this thread.

 

[Hanmik]

"A new PS3 system software update, v3.72, will be released soon," said Eric Lempel, vice president of the newly formed Sony Network Entertainment.

"With this minor update, system stability during use of PS3 format software and network services has been improved."

Nothing more needs to be said, it's all in this thread.

wtf..?

 

[Massa]

The PS3 GameOS is also based on Linux btw.

It's not.

 

[Momo]

"A new PS3 system software update, v3.72, will be released soon," said Eric Lempel, vice president of the newly formed Sony Network Entertainment.

"With this minor update, system stability during use of PS3 format software and network services has been improved."

Nothing more needs to be said, it's all in this thread.

inception?

 

[seb]

"A new PS3 system software update, v3.72, will be released soon," said Eric Lempel, vice president of the newly formed Sony Network Entertainment.

"With this minor update, system staBility duRing use Of PS3 format softWare and network SERvices has been improved."

Nothing more needs to be said, it's all in this thread.

OMG, you were right all along!

 

[jeff_rigby]

3.72 contained something about direct access to the harddrives probably a security protection, but seems to have broken OCZ's Sandforce implematation.

I just got done installing the update to an old Fat 60GB with the new firmware. Apparently, it doesn't like my OCZ Vertex Plus 120GB SSD drive. The update seems to be working, but everytime I boot up it says the harddrive is invalid. I double checked the drive from my computer system and everything is working fine, but the PS3 no longer recognizes the drive.

That's two individuals with SSD drives and 3.72 created an issue with the drive. Security or buggy new Hard Disk access firmware to support faster access and/or a virtual memory swap like Linux systemD?

Google TV coming to Multiple platforms Via PS Suite

Even in 2007, Linux guys were speculating that Sony's plans for the PS3 were more than just games and the OS would evolve.

By content provider I didn't really mean just the game providers. It's pretty obvious that Sony wish to evolve to something more than just games when the timing is right; be it one entertainment box that has everything or separate products. But you have to do it in baby steps to see how market react and figure out the potential growth. I think in a way it's kind of like the open source community approach.

I understand that and I'm totally fine with it. Being a Linux user myself I sure want it to become more popular. The only thing I wonder about is why Sony did it right at launch. At launch they are using lots of money on each unit, it's supposed to be difficult to buy, and it's basically useless for your average guy anyway. Why not wait for the manufacturing prices to go down and then put the whole Linux stuff online? My issue is only with the timing, not with the actual idea.

Four months later and the Gnome foundation announces mobile and embedded initiative It's my opinion that Sony has adopted Gnome for the Vita, PS3 and PS4 with the some of Gnome libraries in the PS3 with Firmware 3.0 2009. Many of the PS3 updates since 2009 were tracking Gnome library updates, especially the ones labeled "improved system stability during use of PS3 format software and network services" which translated means XMB application software not game side improvements.

Access, the creator of the Netfront browser announced Mobile Linux development kit (2/2007)

Japanese mobile software company Access announced the availability of the Access Linux Platform development kit. The Access Linux Platform (ALP), which is designed for deployment on phone handsets and mobile devices, includes a Palm OS virtual machine capable of running legacy Palm OS Garnet applications. ALP also supports Java and Gtk software as well as native applications that leverage Access's MAX UI framework. The platform leverages numerous open source technologies, including the GStreamer multimedia framework, the D-Bus interprocess communication system, and the SQLite database library.

Access, which acquired PalmSource in 2005, is also the company behind the NetFront embedded web browser which is used on Sony's PSP handheld gaming system. The company has leveraged its past experience with mobile development to create a unique mobile Linux platform. "Just as is the case with the ACCESS NetFront Browser, the ACCESS Linux Platform software has been designed from day one specifically for mobile phones and converged devices," said Access CTO Tomihisa Kamada. "We believe this approach has enabled us to deliver an integrated, commercial-grade Linux-based platform that is optimized to provide true flexibility, openness and customizability for handset and mobile device manufacturers, operators and developers."

As a developer who uses Gtk on a regular basis, I've been reading about ALP with growing interest ever since the system was first revealed at last year's 3GSM World Congress. ALP will compete directly with Qtopia, a Linux-based mobile platform developed by Trolltech that leverages Trolltech's open source Qt toolkit. Like Trolltech, Access seems interested in promoting thirdparty development. Although it is still too early to gauge ALP's full potential, its use of prominent open source desktop software development technologies like Gtk and GStreamer is highly compelling.

Does the PS3/PSP Netfront browser support gstreamer? In any case a Japanese company that provided the Netfront browser for the PS3 and PSP recognized the Gstreamer AV library and GTK as powerful enough to be part of an operating system in 2007. All this in 2007 and Sony sent a PS3 developer kit to Collabora (gstreamer, D-Bus, GTKwebkit) late 2007.

2002 Panasonic and Sony started CELF (Consumer Electronics Linux Foundation) which evolved into eLinux around 2005.

What's coming is more than just a new browser and the Gnome libraries can support it. PS Suite may be based on Mono which is considered a Gnome Technology; there are two core modules supported by Mono (Gnome and .NET).

See below in next post:

GNOME = GNU Network Object Model Environment, I.E. it uses Network libraries to support a Desktop environment; GTKwebkit support libraries. The difference between androvsky and my views boils down to will the Playstation video store app be loaded nearly instantly because the Gnome libraries (Cairo, Glstreamer, Javascript engine, Glib) are already loaded and being used for the XMB or will those libraries be loaded as needed. Web apps loading from the XMB (as part of the XMB) other than full screen will prove this. Full screen apps are possible either way and only the load speed can be used to indicate a GNOME XMB desktop.

 

[jcm]

Apparently Hulu Plus and the new video store interface is based on a Sony-written JS framework called Trilithium.

The Video Unlimited service is a JavaScript application with a carefully designed runtime platform and very lightweight APIs to access hardware accelerated 3D graphics and shader effects, video playback engine, and other aspects of the PS3 hardware.

 

[chubigans]

That new Video Unlimited app is really fantastic. I could see the next PS4 UI being something like that.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Filling out the information in the above post:

If that's not enough of a departure from the conventional video on demand arrangement, the new UI also features "tumbler search technology," which abandons regular keyboard-style input for PS3 controls -- click the right button to select a letter as you scroll vertically through the alphabet. This "patented technology" also autocompletes your query and similarly takes advantage of Gracenote's database, allowing you to search by title, actor, director or tag. The new UI is specific to the company's video service and is currently only available via the PS3, but we're told it will roll out to the entire network and supported devices sometime in the future. All PlayStation Network users will be able to download the preview app starting October 11th, check out a video preview embedded after the break.

PlayStation Plus subscribers can download the “Video Unlimited – preview” later today. It’s easy, just head toward the Media section in the PlayStation Store,

Sony, Engadget and the author of some of the tools building the app all posted yesterday for consumption today.

 

[Hanmik]

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/27/sony-video-unlimited-preview-brings-gracenote-metadata-to-sen/

what does this have to do with "a big upgrade" or "the ps3 webbrowser"..?

I should have learnt my lesson by now, but I want a better web browser on my ps3, so I check this thread everytime it is bumped.. but right now I see nothing that has anything to do with the web browser or any changes to it.. and it is starting to anoy me.

 

[JJD]

That new Video Unlimited app is really fantastic. I could see the next PS4 UI being something like that.

Sony should revamp the PSN Store with that UI. Really amazing!

what does this have to do with "a big upgrade" or "the ps3 webbrowser"..?

I should have learnt my lesson by now, but I want a better web browser on my ps3, so I check this thread everytime it is bumped.. but right now I see nothing that has anything to do with the web browser or any changes to it.. and it is starting to anoy me.

Don't be naive. If a big web browser is indeed released you can be pretty sure there will be a new thread for new news. You don't need to come here just to annoy yourself and others.

 

[jeff_rigby]

what does this have to do with "a big upgrade" or "the ps3 webbrowser"..?

I should have learnt my lesson by now, but I want a better web browser on my ps3, so I check this thread everytime it is bumped.. but right now I see nothing that has anything to do with the web browser or any changes to it.. and it is starting to anoy me.

This is the cyclic part that others are complaining about:

The Gnome libraries and parts of webkit are being used for applications NOW. A full browser has many more dependencies and is therefor much easier to crash if there are any API changes to supporting libraries. Chrome is getting nightly updates, would you wish Sony to do the same with the PS3, nightly firmware updates?

At some point Sony will have to take a snapshot of Webkit development and release a browser based on that build. They will not do so until the supporting libraries are considered stable which is supposed to come with Gnome 3.2 this month Edit: September 28th which is today. That is the earliest we will see a new browser! A new XMB based on Gnome is also dependent on some of the same libraries and has nearly the same timetable. Sony can be blamed for any delays in releasing a new browser starting TODAY! The clock is ticking NOW. Linux distributions using Gnome 3.2 are scheduled for the middle of October but we expect more from Sony <sigh>.

Announcements and new features generally wait for the official release of the supporting libraries. Gee, the article for the new Movie application is released on the 27th for consumption on the 28th.......Gnome 3.2 released the 28th...could there be a connection?

Sony (My opinion) is going to use the Gnome technologies for just about everything. Second life, which is essentially the same as Sony's "Home", uses Mono for the scripting part of Second Life. Home uses Lua for the scripting part and I assume native libraries for shader and other game functions. If Mono is the basis of PS Suite then I expect Home will shift from Lua to Mono for scripting and will be available on PS Suite Platforms in 2012. (Once you build the native libraries on a platform to support PS Suite games why not use them for Home also. Mono is much faster than Lua but consumes a couple of megs more memory and is not free. There is a Lua to Mono compiler.)

PS Suite's suite of applications might possibly include a Store for all Sony products not just PS Suite applications and games (Javascript based), Google TV, Playview, E-Reader, Ultraviolet player and Home. All Gnome based technologies (Mono is considered a Gnome Technology).

 

[Ashes]

more whining, blahblah. At least thebishop seems to know what he is talking about so it adds a little biit more legitimacy to his concerns.

People should unsubscribe from this highly speculative thread if they don't like the discussion.

 

[jeff_rigby]

more whining, blahblah. At least thebishop seems to know what he is talking about so it adds a little biit more legitimacy to his concerns.

People should unsubscribe from this highly speculative thread if they don't like the discussion.

Hey, be nice <grin>. There is a legitimate reason to be upset at the time it's taking to get a new browser. There is a good reason for this "time" also.

Soon to not be so highly speculative <grin>.

 

[patsu]

That new Video Unlimited app is really fantastic. I could see the next PS4 UI being something like that.

There is a CNN article that talks about future plans. Sony intend to update Music Unlimited and the PS Store using similar technologies. They should not need to wait for PS4.

I think they should evolve PS Game Store into Games Unlimited. ^_^

They should also generalize PS Home so that we can convert and assimilate websites into the 3D world.

 

[jeff_rigby]

There is a CNN article that talks about future plans. Sony intend to update Music Unlimited and the PS Store using similar technologies. They should not need to wait for PS4.

I think they should evolve PS Game Store into Games Unlimited. ^_^

They should also generalize PS Home so that we can convert and assimilate websites into the 3D world.

Yeah, if you follow some of the links in my above post like This one, it pretty much spells out their plans. CNN article here.

Microsoft and Sony would like to sell the media, not just the hardware that plays them. But if their gaming consoles were truly home-entertainment Trojan horses, the clock is ticking for them to spring their surprise.

Now that the tools are done.....imagination in how they are used is what I look to next. One must also look to the "couch potato's" (from CNN article) limited attention span and have VERY fast loads and easy to understand UIs.

 

[Ashes]

Hey, be nice <grin>. There is a legitimate reason to be upset at the time it's taking to get a new browser. There is a good reason for this "time" also.

Soon to not be so highly speculative <grin>.

It wasn't aimed at you Jeff.

The whining is cyclical. People that don't want to be in this thread are not obliged to be. I'm not saying don't be negative or criticise the speculation, i.e. theBishop, he at least, clarifies his position with some knowledge/info etc.

I don't need: 'are we there yet?' posts every ten posts.

 

[jeff_rigby]

It wasn't aimed at you Jeff.

The whining is cyclical. People that don't want to be in this thread are not obliged to be. I'm not saying don't be negative or criticise the speculation.

I don't need: 'are we there yet?' posts every ten posts.

I knew that, Hanmik's post was timely <grin>. I used it to point out to the 'are we there yet? people that it's coming soon. It is a legitimate feeling as it's been two years since we (including me) expected applications and a year waiting on a new browser. From CNN post:

Microsoft and Sony would like to sell the media, not just the hardware that plays them. But if their gaming consoles were truly home-entertainment Trojan horses, the clock is ticking for them to spring their surprise.

Even CNN is making a similar comment. It's why I started looking into what's coming.....why was it taking so long, I then got hooked as it applies to everything not just the PS3. The more you learn the easier it is to see the big picture and predict what's coming.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Charles Ying Post

This is the new PlayStation Video Unlimited service. This PlayStation app runs at a full 60 frames per second (when you see it on a PS3), has tons of 3D graphics effects, full-speed 1080p video playback, and a fluid, hardware accelerated, animated user experience. What you may not know is that this is a web app.

A Web App? On A PlayStation?
The Video Unlimited service is a JavaScript application with a carefully designed runtime platform and very lightweight APIs to access hardware accelerated 3D graphics and shader effects, video playback engine, and other aspects of the PS3 hardware.

Two years ago, I helped start this project at Sony. In six weeks, our team took a working Flash UI prototype and recreated it on a PS3, complete with an early version of the platform, now internally called Trilithium. Alex Bustin, the same UI developer who built the original UI prototype, also wrote the Trilithium port.

The release of Video Unlimited was delayed until now, but Trilithium was used to build another of Sony&#8217;s partner&#8217;s apps, Hulu Plus for PS3. (See video at the end of this post).

So in late 2009 Sony had a working javascript engine on a developer PS3.

September 28th 2009 PS3 firmware 3.0, according to Hirari, was a complete PS3 OS rewrite to support Media and Networked Media. Video introduction, the Future of digital Media, was played and featured Augmented Reality and overlays which can be supported by player with Cairo bindings

Trilithium, Startrek fan, Trilithium powered the Warp drive engines on the Enterprise, get it; Javascript engine in the PS3....Enterprise....making money. And you don't think the Sony programmers have a sense of humor <grin>.

Trilithium&#8217;s strength comes from taking full advantage of the PS3 hardware and existing well-optimized frameworks (Make good use of the complex 8-core + GPU PS3 hardware without killing ourselves.) to do everything from graphics to video playback, leaving the decisions about the high level application to a very flexible JavaScript core API.

2) The preview application designed to work with a 2009 PS3 must include a HTML javascript engine as we know the PS3 did not have one until Sept 2010. There is a HTML5 javascript engine in the PS3 now! That's been proved with the size reductions for IPTV apps and Sony's Nov 2010 javascript engine disclosure (enable video switch in DIFF file proves HTML5).

Future plans call for webkit to be callable from a game, to use webkit for chat applications etc. Portal 2 used webkit most likely provided by the PS3.

Edit: Confirmed in the "About" section in the 2009 Video unlimited app.

libcurl => client-side URL transfer library
libxml2 => XML C parser and toolkit developed for the Gnome project
openssl => Secure Socket layer
webkit Disclosure site= http://products.sel.sony.com/opensource/ Same javascript engine now in the PS3
zlib => Compression library
jsSHA (Brian Turek)

1) Same webkit disclosure site for the PS3 GTKwebkit browser which means the same javascript engine which REQUIRES Cairo version 1.6 and gstreamer.
2) There is no Cairo or Gstreamer disclosed in the Video unlimited app, in fact no library to write or display AV.
3) There is in addition, a shell program that must be Sony custom developed for the PS3.

If you look at the First disclosure for the javascript engine, the Diff file for the Firmware 3.5 javascript engine disclosed by Sony Nov 2010 links to Gstreamer_lib and Cairo_lib. The GTK webkit Javascript engine supports webGL using Cairo and Gstreamer with Cairo bindings. It writes by using CairoGL API calls directly to the PS3 hardware. The Playstation Video store preview App written in 2009 uses the same API calls to Cairo for drawing and Gstreamer for Video/Audio that current IPTV apps like Hulu use. It follows then that Gstreamer and Cairo were in the PS3 in 2009 and most likely were part of Firmware 3.0 which had massive XMB rewrite which I would guess used XML with Cairo bindings.

# minimum base dependencies
LIBSOUP_REQUIRED_VERSION=2.28.2
CAIRO_REQUIRED_VERSION=1.6
@@ -281,6 +283,8 @@ AC_SUBST(GTK_LIBS)
AC_SUBST(CAIRO_CFLAGS)
AC_SUBST(CAIRO_LIBS)

AC_SUBST([LIBSOUP_CFLAGS])
@@ -772,6 +778,8 @@ if test "$enable_video" = "yes"; then
AC_SUBST([GSTREAMER_LIBS])

A couple of messages after the above I mentioned the big news wasn't webkit, it was Cairo. In the Sony SNAP site it mentioned SNAP is using Cairo and expects it to evolve over time to use Collada (game assets file). Cairo has been around for nearly 10 years and has been evolving over time. It started out as just a library of SVG calls for vector graphics then someone included Pixman code in it and now Cairo can manipulate SVG graphics and Pixel based graphics. Next step is to include support for the Collada file format for game assets (Shader support etc.)

With OpenGL support Cairo is one library that does it all. XML (PS3 XMB), Lua (PS3 Home), Mono (Might be PS Suite), Gstreamer, GTKWebkit, GTK all have Cairo bindings which means all can draw using Cairo's API. One Drawing Library that everything links to and highly optimized using both GPU and SPU.

If you think about it, using Cairo for Drawing simplifies the Javascript JIT engine, for drawing it's primarily then about compiling cairo to PS3 OpenGL native language (GPU-SPU) routines. I can't imagine the JIT engine code that would be needed for CPU drawing using the Cell.

Continued in #887 below

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I knew that, Hanmik's post was timely <grin>. I used it to point out to the 'are we there yet? people that it's coming soon. It is a legitimate feeling as it's been two years since we (including me) expected applications and a year waiting on a new browser. From CNN post: Even CNN is making a similar comment. It's why I started looking into what's coming.....why was it taking so long, I then got hooked as it applies to everything not just the PS3. The more you learn the easier it is to see the big picture and predict what's coming.

so in laymans terms....what is coming?

 

[jeff_rigby]

so in laymans terms....what is coming?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27697080&postcount=410

 

[tirminyl]

I periodically read this thread, so I find it all very interesting but man, it's a lot to digest.

jeff_rigby - What do you do for a living? That isn't mean to be a demeaning question or anything, I am honestly curious.

 

[Withnail]

Firmware 3.0 was interesting because it added the sparkles to the XMB and the changed font size which people went mental over, and at the time it just seemed like the version number was meaningless and Sony were tinkering for the sake of it. Looking back now and combined with the other information found by jeff_rigby it does give a hint that there were some significant changes made to the underlying technology. It's just a shame that we still don't really know when or if we will see any major improvements in functionality.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I periodically read this thread, so I find it all very interesting but man, it's a lot to digest.

jeff_rigby - What do you do for a living? That isn't mean to be a demeaning question or anything, I am honestly curious.

terminyl = another programmer with a sense of humor <grin>. What one sits at hours a day. Click on my name and read the public profile.

It boils down to Sony in late 2007 chose to Go with a GTKwebkit browser for the PS3 based on Gnome technology because Gstreamer with Cairo bindings could be used for Augmented reality and Gnome (Plus Cairo), the basis for supporting their Media Enterprise on multiple platforms. The priority for Sony is not the browser, its the applications that can be built with the javascript engine to sell Sony Media and support Sony products.

You probably think it's obvious. In hindsight it is.

If the WebGL programmer's post (in my post above) was authorized, I expect the wraps are coming off the project and we will be getting more news soon.

Following links from here I found this in a blog dated Jul 16, 2010 :

All this tells us is that there are going to be changes to the PS3 User interface, which we already expected.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I've been horrible at predicting when Sony would announce Firmware 4.0 or the Browser but pretty good at discovering the tools (Gnome) being used.

Recently with both the WebGL programmer announcement and official release of the preview version of the 2009 Video store application now available for Plus users with availability to everyone else October 11th and the following article I'd guess October 11 which is a Tuesday and typical Firmware update day for the PS3 will have a major update to the PS3, possibly 4.0. Edit: 4.0 will probably wait for 4K video out early 2011.

Recently Sony has released two tablets Sony Tablet S and Sony Tablet P which will be updated to Android 3.2.

With this update, Sony tablets will be provided access to Sony Unlimited Video Store which is expected on October 10. This will also include Sony’s Entertainment Network and Online Reading Store. But the most desired and anticipated breakthrough which will really have some great influence on the sale of Apple iPads, is the plan to enable Sony PS 3 directly on the both tablets. If this option is provided then many existing iPad users will have to think upon change.

From a marketing standpoint it would be stupid to release too many features all at once. So while the firmware version might reach 4.0, features will probably be turned on slowly building hype for the Christmas buying season and allowing PS3 users a period of adjustment so they are not overwhelmed. Again, this is a guess with no support.

 

[ShinobiFist]

Sony actually making their devices talk to each other? About time.

 

[Thunderbear]

...is the plan to enable Sony PS 3 directly on the both tablets. If this option is provided then many existing iPad users will have to think upon change.

Like remote control on the PSP/PSVita?

Sony actually making their devices talk to each other? About time.

The PSP already does, but it would be cool if it extended to tablets...

 

[jeff_rigby]

The following is a snip from the first Sony disclosure for the PS3, Nov 2010 for the JIT HTML5 Javascript engine.

# determine the GDK/GTK+ target.................................This is the key to understanding what's coming *GTK+ webkit* http://www.webkitgtk.org/
AC_MSG_CHECKING([the target windowing system])
AC_ARG_WITH(target,
- AC_HELP_STRING([--with-target=@<x11/win32/quartz/directfb@:>@],
+ AC_HELP_STRING([--with-target=@<x11/win32/quartz/directfb/ps3@:>@],
[Select webkit target [default=x11]]),
[],[with_target="x11"])

This snippet determines how the Javascript engine is going to write to your screen, which version of GTK or rather which backend GTK is going to use which is primarily which version of Cairo. Why is this needed when writing using GTK/Cairo results in exactly the same on screen image on any platform using any cairo backend? Because it's a JIT engine and the Just In Time compiling of the instructions from Javascript (using GTK/Cairo) to PS3 PSGL native language SPU-GPU microcode requires knowing how the writing will be done to the screen.

with-target=@<x11/win32/quartz/directfb/ps3@:>@] has ps3 in the place OpenGL would occupy. I assume here that Sony has some custom optimization for the PS3 GTK/cairo OPENGL backend. (GDK/GTK was X11 by default but is now GTK OpenGL thus the addition. One can take from this that the disclosure on 11/2010 was for at least a 6 months old webkit Javascript engine; around April 2010 or before, now 1.5 years old.)

I expect the JIT code for the PS3 using PSGL or OpenGL is much easier to implement than directFB would be as directfb uses more CPU instructions and managing the Cell is more difficult than a table of OpenGL GPU instructions or for instance an ARM processor.

OK back to Cairo and it not being disclosed. Massa made the statement and androvsky agreed that Cairo and Gstreamer were not being used by the PS3 because they had not been disclosed by Sony as required by the LGPL licence for open source code. (Cairo was disclosed March 2011). This should be true but isn't. Somehow the PS3 used Gstreamer and Cairo in 2009. Gstreamer can be purchased from Fluendo but Cairo can't.

Cairo was not declared stable until after the WEBGL standard was released and within weeks of the WEBGL standard, Sony released the Cairo disclosure. Cairo needed to support all the features in the WebGL standard, so if WebGL changed then Cairo changed to support it.

As I've stated before, games and applications I thought using Gstreamer and Cairo were not allowed in the US (Eyepet, PlayTV and Torne) because I believe the copyright rules are stricter in the US.

Why was this important; because Cairo and Gstreamer integrated into the PS3 OS and optimized for the Cell and RSX GPU was necessary for the WebGL browser to support games and the XMB to support web-applications.

Charles Ying's post confirms an optimized framework using the PS3 cell and GPU exists in the PS3 to support the javascript engine since 2009. Since the javascript engine uses Gstreamer with cairo bindings to support HTML5 video and GTK/cairo for writing to the screen then the Cairo-gstreamer framework was in the PS3 since 2009.

Sony has been tweaking and tuning this framework since 2009 to give us the best implementation of a WebGL browser and I believe the best tools to create applications on the PS3.

Edit: It's later discovered Sony is using OpenVG and AVM+. These libraries can not be used to support IPTV for Sony. Proof of concept?

 

[yurinka]

Sounds great.

Big props, jeff_rigby. You have been doing a great job in this thread since some years ago.

 

[Momo]

Sounds great.

Big props, jeff_rigby. You have been doing a great job in this thread since some years ago.

Jeff's been an active member a few months at best iirc

 

[Afrikan]

my head hurts when I read jeff's posts, but I keep reading. >_<

that video of Hulu Plus looks NICE...never knew it was like that....waiting to try Video Unlimited Preview myself before watching the video.

do yall think that they can improve the NFL Ticket App they have running on the PS3, with this tech? I believe right now you can't have multiple games playing at one time on screen, like the PC/Directv versions. And if they could/have been behind the scenes, would we have to wait till next season or would it be possible to implement it during the season with a software update for that particular app?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Jeff's been an active member a few months at best iirc

12 days after the first post in this thread and the reason I joined NeoGAF. 1year and 2 months ago and this month (October) when I predicted the Browser release.....

do yall think that they can improve the NFL Ticket App they have running on the PS3, with this tech? I believe right now you can't have multiple games playing at one time on screen, like the PC/Directv versions. And if they could/have been behind the scenes, would we have to wait till next season or would it be possible to implement it during the season with a software update for that particular app?

Very Very good question. Multi-threading needed and the gstreamer core has to be fast enough for multiple video threads. Before gstreamer 1.0 probably not or they would have done it right?...now probably yes but that's something I can't determine from reading articles.

 

[jeff_rigby]

More rumors for this month (3 days old):

A source inside Microsoft has informed Warp Zoned that this Fall’s Xbox Live Dashboard update will be available starting in October. OK, that’s nice, October is a more accurate release date than “this fall.” But our source also revealed that, in addition to a new Windows 8-inspired user interface and a variety of Kinect control enhancements, the update will include web browsing through an Internet Explorer app. Internet Explorer on the Xbox 360, along with the new Bing Search, is apparently “very cool” according to our source.

Microsoft has announced a boatload of new features for their fall update, but Internet browsing has not been one of them so far. Sadly, further clarification was not offered, so it’s possible our source is mistaken. But with the PlayStation 3 and Wii both offering a web browser, this seems like a no-brainer for Microsoft.

I wonder if this is tied to Sony releasing a browser this month too (if my guess is correct).

If this information turns out to be true I think that the Xbox 360 has given itself a longer lifecycle with the inclusion of the web browser, it is a function that has been asked for since the Playstation 3 was released and featured the web browser at launch. With all of the possible new functions of the update the Xbox 360 could truly be the all-in-one Media Center that Microsoft was hoping the system to be.

Again, if true both companies appear to have the same View of a ALL-IN -One Home Media center.

Yesterday Microsoft announced that content from almost 40 new media partners will begin rolling out on Xbox 360 in over 20 countries before Christmas.

And Sony now has an App section in the Playstation store.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

If MS does offer a web app for the 360, the sad thing is that it'll work 20x better than the PS3's browser.

By the way, i believe you jeff. I might not understand half the stuff you post but it's fun to read. I think he knows alot more than you think guys. (Grin)

 

[User Name Here]

If MS does offer a web app for the 360, the sad thing is that it'll work 20x better than the PS3's browser.

By the way, i believe you jeff. I might not understand half the stuff you post but it's fun to read. I think he knows alot more than you think guys. (Grin)

I was just thinking about that. Maybe this could force Sony to upgrade the browser, if they see the 360's browser is better.

 

[jeff_rigby]

PS3 to support 4K still picture output to new 4K Monitors in early 2012

4K (moving picture) video output not mentioned. This confirms the PS3 HDMI output can support 4K video (still pictures). Is the PS3 gstreamer core fast enough for 4K video played from the PS3 Hard Disk? Is there a compression codec-standard for 4K?

In a runaround way, Sony Japan revealed it will allow the PS3 to display 4K resolution photos thanks to an upcoming firmware update. The introduction of the company's VPL-VW1000ES 4K projector at CEATEC in Japan also contained mention of the PS3 update due at the start of 2012. It will allow the games console to natively output 4096x2160-resolution still images.

Currently, displays connected to the PS3, most commonly with maximum 1080p resolutions, mean any images larger than 1920x1080 aren't fully displayed. This firmware will change this, allowing 4K displays such as Sony's new projector to work with the PS3 to display images in all their glory. Whether a 4K video output update will ever reach Sony's console remains to be seen.

OK < tongue in cheek> prediction revision, PS3 Firmware 4.0 will occur the beginning of 2012 and will enable 4K video (still picture). 3.9 something will be released in 2011 with most of the ecosystem and Wekit browser.

Browsing the net for 4K video playback and several are blogging about testing 4K video using gstreamer and other players on other platforms. Do-able with gstreamer with some glitches and this is before Gstreamer 1.0 which is supposed to be optimized and faster. Troubling was testing 4K video playback was from memory not a Hard Disk file and testing was done after decompression.

 

[jeff_rigby]

PS3 titles that are played via Remote Play need a bit of customization for memory and CPU use. Sony is finishing up work on a library that facilitates this and will be sending a beta version of this out to developers to test upcoming and old titles.

While Yoshida did not say when Remote Play support will be ready for PS3 games, Vita owners will get to try out one area of Remote Play at launch. Sony is finishing up work on the required customizations for Torne, a popular first party device that gives the PS3 digital video recorder capabilities. Following a December update, this will support Remote Play on Vita.

Outside of pure Remote Play, Vita can be used as a controller for your PlayStation 3. The system's screen can also act as a sub monitor. Yoshida said that Sony is looking into creating utility libraries that will allow PS3 developers to use the Vita's touch screen.

The December update to Torne should include the new Webkit browser rather than Netfront. That puts a max date to the new PS3 GTKwebkit browser release, before the Vita release December 17th (Torne update should be before this date).

Torne already uses Cairo and Gstreamer but currently uses the old Netfront browser. Since Torne uses the libraries in (my opinion) the XMB Gnome desktop it is another application that should load almost instantly and exit to the XMB instantly.

 

[thuway]

The December update to Torne should include the new Webkit browser rather than Netfront. That puts a max date to the new PS3 GTKwebkit browser release of before the Vita release December 17th (Torne update should be before this date).

Torne already uses Cairo and Gstreamer but currently uses the old Netfront browser. Since Torne uses the libraries in (my opinion) the XMB Gnome desktop it is another application that should load almost instantly and exit to the XMB instantly.

So Remote Play for Vita at launch?
Also, when i iz getting crossgamezchat?

 

[M.D]

So Remote Play for Vita at launch?
Also, when i iz getting crossgamezchat?

PS4

 

[jeff_rigby]

So Remote Play for Vita at launch?
Also, when i iz getting crossgamezchat?

Complain to the Japanese Immersive UHD 24 audio channel mentality. I think including 7.1 sound in earphones came from that mentality and it's coming for the PS4 which will support immersive 4K and multi-channel sound with 7.1 being a minimum. HMD and virtual reality-immersive 4K video with sound go hand in hand. That killed cross game chat in my opinion. Too much memory needed for the additional audio channels the new headphones with 7.1 had to support, something had to go.

Cross game chat is dead as far as the PS3 is concerned.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Charter testing Multi-screen Video in the home.

Charter Communications is testing out SeaChange International's "Nitro" user interface using a hybrid IP-QAM gateway to deliver video to tablets, PCs and other devices inside a subscriber's home, according to industry sources.

In announcing the Nitro product in June, SeaChange said that a "major multiple system operator (MSO) is the first Nitro customer with an initial deployment planned for later this year."

http://www.schange.com/Docs/Public/ondemand/Nitro_BR_6-5_2011.aspx

http://www.schange.com/Docs/Public/ondemand/tru2way_BR_6-6_2011.aspx

Sea Change Nitro is a RVU, HTML5 and Flash solution for multiple platforms to access the Homes Cable DVR content. Game consoles mentioned, HTML5 required as well as (or) DLNA and DTCP-IP. Interesting is that Marlin DRM is not supported but Playready which Sony recently purchased rights to use is mentioned. Connected?

Sony can do the same thing between their products with DLNA RVU (they already support DTCP-IP in the PS3) inside the home. Outside the home ? possibly using HTML5 with some form of DRM?

Direct TV to release their RVU over home network October.

Sony to release a New Bluetooth-PS3-TV-Stereo controller late October. More clues for a major update to the PS3 firmware in October and Sony supporting the PS3 as a must have Home Theater accessory.