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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash

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it's 8X the Xbox 360 but the games will be 4 - 6 times the 360
This is a 9/2011 paper on the reasons for a Xbox 720. Target performance is probably LOW, AMD HSA not factored in.... probably Edram, SOC and 28nm efficiencies assumed as well as some of the AMD fusion (coherent cache common memory pool etc.)

What we can take from this is the business plan and features that will be supported as well as the timetable. Those should be similar to Sony plans!
 
Yeah, they're talking about an always on whole house DVR/media server with significant resources reserved for background applications and services.

They're also targeting 120 watts, a little more than half what might be expected as the upper limit.

Document also describes an Xbox 361 to launch this year as a low cost device so you can have Xbox in every room of your house. Very much sounds like the Loop that was rumored as a Roku/AppleTV competitor.
Where are you finding that? There is so much there that my eyes water and I'm missing things.
 

AmFreak

Member
Where are you finding that? There is so much there that my eyes water and I'm missing things.

p.48 + 49
STRG+F 361 ;)

Also interesting that by 2015 they want to transition into cloud gaming:
"Access to the latest and greatest experiences without upgrading hardware"
"Never wait for your hardware to catch up"
"Never need to upgrade again"
...
 
"how much of that CPU and memory is allocated to the non-gaming functions and OS?". For sure I don't know but a cite that seemed reasonable was less than 100 meg needed for both GPU and CPU to do Kinect 2 Gesture recognition. And this supports Kinect using a GPU rather than CPU only....another point as lots of traditional CPU power is not needed. Prefetch for GPU and branch prediction should be big uses for typical CPUs and X86 does that very well, modern Power 7 too?

Thanks, but I was also referring to more than just Kinect.


Nice find. I remember a portion of that diagram being leak awhile back, but I think most wrote it off as fake.. Also it said >32MB of eDRAM. I had mentioned to a couple of people that maybe the memory is DDR4. I wonder how much 8GB of DDR4 will run.

EDIT: Messed up the calculations.
 

Pistolero

Member
Seems to the layman that I am that the gap between this console and its predecessor, at least going by what is described here, is not as pronounced as some might want it to be. Perhaps was this the reason behind all those developers' campaign to get Microsoft to raise the bar, specs wise. The machine is probably beefier now...
 
Towards the end where they break out stuff year by year.
Found it page 50, more there that's interesting:

Xbox 361, cheaper Xbox360 with more features:

HDMI pass-thru (IF the PS3 had this then Google TV would be possible)
HD-Homerun => access to a Homerun Digital TV tuner? WOW, I've got one.
XTV with full 1080P and overlays (Not possible on Xbox 360)

More is implied here, HDMI pass-through implies always on low power modes, Xbox361 as the only input to your TV with it controlling your picture with overlays, windows with information from the web and more.

So this is similar to what we were speculating a PS3.5 would have.
 
Seems to the layman that I am that the gap between this console and its predecessor, at least going by what is described here, is not as pronounced as some might want it to be. Perhaps was this the reason behind all those developers' campaign to get Microsoft to raise the bar, specs wise. The machine is probably beefier now...

From how it sounds not that much other than the memory.
 

AmFreak

Member
Seems to the layman that I am that the gap between this console and its predecessor, at least going by what is described here, is not as pronounced as some might want it to be. Perhaps was this the reason behind all those developers' campaign to get Microsoft to raise the bar, specs wise. The machine is probably beefier now...

They don't really need another Xbox->360 if this document is to be trusted. (See my last post). If by 2015 they transition to Cloud Gaming the power of the hardware doesn't matter anymore.
 

jmdajr

Member
2010168860.png


Cloud gaming. Lol for me.
 
They don't really need another Xbox->360 if this document is to be trusted. (See my last post). If by 2015 they transition to Cloud Gaming the power of the hardware doesn't matter anymore.

Well that seems to be their plan. But I think 2015 is way too early for global high quality cloud gaming. Sounds risky.
 

AmFreak

Member
Gemüsepizza;38927465 said:
Well that seems to be their plan. But I think 2015 is way too early for global high quality cloud gaming. Sounds risky.

They won't stop doing it the old non streamy way.
 
They don't really need another Xbox->360 if this document is to be trusted. (See my last post). If by 2015 they transition to Cloud Gaming the power of the hardware doesn't matter anymore.
Everyone is misreading. First comes (2013) the Xbox 720 as the cloud server that will serve AAA games to any device like On-live does (page 45). Forrenza glasses and handhelds will use the GPU power in the Xbox 720. 2015 for titles that exceed the power of the Xbox720 available via cloud.

That last might change due to the HSA Foundation allowing 2011 Cell vision where your PC can augment your PS4 or possibly Xbox 720.
 
That's what i said ...Seems so.
There is a subtle difference that might have been misunderstood by many. Your statement could have been read as "If by 2015 they transition to Cloud Gaming the power of the hardware doesn't matter anymore". I think there will be multiple models beyond what we think of with Onlive. There is the possibility of an upgrade to local performance using the cloud as in shared processing not Onlive where there is no need for a local GPU. This was also in the Sony 2011 Cell vison, banks and banks of APUs using HMC memory as a cloud server available to upgrade local GPU&CPU performance. This is the 2015 upgrade via the cloud mentioned for Xbox 720 after 2015.

The term UPGRADE is the key here and you would have to be familiar with the Sony 2011 patent to catch this. Cloud gaming is available now, what has to change to make it available in 2015...nothing. Distributed processing is going to take several years to implement, 2015 or 2016 seems about right.

Edit: Page 30 mentions Cloud processing that supports my take. "Should not require glasses or cloud processing. Those will be layered in post 2013"
 
I don't want cloud gaming. =/

My internet resets like once a day...
Welcome back and read my posts above your. Subtle difference on take, it's not traditional cloud gaming, or at least that's my take.

My wall of text that KageMaru complained about explains this and has the cites...now if only people read it.

I'm burned out now but will be back in the morning....already people like Brad Grenz and others on BY3D have found things I missed, looking forward to reading this thread tomorrow for even more uncovered gems. Lots of information to digest...lots implied and waiting to be uncovered.
 
Welcome back and read my posts above your. Subtle difference on take, it's not traditional cloud gaming, or at least that's my take.

My wall of text that KageMaru complained about explains this and has the cites...now if only people read it.

I'm burned out now but will be back in the morning....already people like Brad Grenz and others on BY3D have found things I missed, looking forward to reading this thread tomorrow for even more uncovered gems. Lots of information to digest...lots implied and waiting to be uncovered.

Thanks, and yeah, I read it all. I just "never" (not for another 10+ years) see us go to cloud gaming. Bandwidth costs too much (70 bucks a month for 20down 15 up!?!?), I still have a data cap... and like I said... unless internet becomes near 100% reliable, I don't want it.
 
it's 8X the Xbox 360 but the games will be 4 - 6 times the 360

4-6 times the 360 fits in with the 1-1.5 TF GPU spec rumor.

I wonder if that rumor was based on this presentation or something more current, because near as I can tell, this is from late 2010, so it's 1.5 years old. edit: I guess not that old.


But yeah, if they want to launch at $299, it will be hard for them to add something better.
 

bananas

Banned
2010168860.png


Cloud gaming. Lol for me.

You might be out of luck, but as long as you have a good ping, you really only need a 5 Mbps download speed for 720p cloud gaming. And to get 480p quality probably only requires a 2 Mbps speed. Most people probably have at least 2 Mbps speed.
 

AmFreak

Member
There is a subtle difference that might have been misunderstood by many. Your statement could have been read as "If by 2015 they transition to Cloud Gaming the power of the hardware doesn't matter anymore. I think there will be multiple models beyond what we think of with Onlive. There is the possibility of an upgrade to local performance using the cloud as in shared processing not Onlive where there is no need for a local GPU. This was also in the Sony 2011 Cell vison, banks and banks of APUs using HMC memory as a cloud server available to upgrade local GPU&CPU performance. This is the 2015 upgrade via the cloud mentioned for Xbox 720 after 2015.

The term UPGRADE is the key here and you would have to be familiar with the Sony 2011 patent to catch this. Cloud gaming is available now, what has to change to make it available in 2015...nothing. Distributed processing is going to take several years to implement, 2015 or 2016 seems about right.

It doesn't really matter if your Gpu is involved at all and if instead of getting the finished frame as a video signal you do distributed processing (aside from distributed processing needing potentially far, far more bandwith) you in both ways have to rely on the network. Besides there is no mention in the document of distributed computing, but numerous ones of getting your games from the cloud.
 

MercuryLS

Banned
So if Kinect and background services is going to suck a bunch of the Durango's power, wouldn't the PS4 be better in some respects where nearly 100% of the power is for traditional controller gaming? It's a trade-off, some power for more flexibility, not sure if I like that as I want my games to take full advantage of the hardware.
 
4-6 times the 360 fits in with the 1-1.5 TF GPU spec rumor.

I wonder if that rumor was based on this presentation or something more current, because near as I can tell, this is from late 2010, so it's 1.5 years old. edit: I guess not that old.

That's based on stuff heard in the last few weeks.

So if Kinect and background services is going to suck a bunch of the Durango's power, wouldn't the PS4 be better in some respects where nearly 100% of the power is for traditional controller gaming? It's a trade-off, some power for more flexibility, not sure if I like that as I want my games to take full advantage of the hardware.

PS4's GPU is already better based on what we know so far.
 

Mindlog

Member
p.48 + 49
STRG+F 361 ;)

Also interesting that by 2015 they want to transition into cloud gaming:
"Access to the latest and greatest experiences without upgrading hardware"
"Never wait for your hardware to catch up"
"Never need to upgrade again"
...
Now that I think about it. That seems like another good reason for a lot of RAM and a slight CPU bias.
 
pastebin is a joke. I posted one fake comment just to see how people fell for that crap. Don't remember the title I put. But it's just silly, anyone can write any crap they pull out of their ass, and somehow people find it legitimate enough to post it on sites like this one. Unreal.

yet somewhere there's probably legit infos on it. theres a pastebin from late 2011 speaking of durango and orbis, well before anybody knew those names or they were public.
 
Did you see a 2tf capable gpu on show at the Nintendo booth?

I didnt even see a 300 gflop one. Not that it might not exist just that it certainly wasnt on display.

What was one display was PS360 level and not a nickel more.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I don't want 4-6 times 360, won't that be a little difficult to put clear blue water between it and the 360? And in that case why are we 'upgrading' if there isn't much 'up'?

all that media stuff sounds interesting but ATSC tuners etc seems overkill. You can stream online services with a cheap appleTV or roku box. That should be a hygiene factor hardware wise, not something you build a box around. (of course software wise you can emphasise media in the OS)

Now that I think about it. That seems like another good reason for a lot of RAM and a slight CPU bias.

Not really. The onlive console is cheap and has little ram but does all that. Cloud gaming and media playback can all be done with a few megs of ram and a $2 SoC
 
yet somewhere there's probably legit infos on it. theres a pastebin from late 2011 speaking of durango and orbis, well before anybody knew those names or they were public.

Wasn't that dismissed because you can change the "date" of the pastebin entries - so it looks like it is from 2011 but was actually writen/updated 2012 when the information was first leaked.
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Great find jeff!

At first i was not convinced that its real, but after i ignored that HW table with uber weird structure of components, then it started making sense. :) Now i can almost accept 2 APU + 1 BCCPU as reality. :)
 

i-Lo

Member
Remember this infamous trailer?

How close to this do you academics think we'll be getting by the end of the next gen (say around 2018-19)? Or rather do you think because PS4 is supposed to be easier to program, the peak can be reached sooner?
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
that trailer is not that impressive anymore imho

Yeah, I'm kind of shocked. I always remembered it looking absolutely insane but it actually isn't that far off from current gen. Fire and explosions actually look a lot better in recent games. Doesn't seem to have motion blur either. Animation is still really great though. I would love to see FPS animation like that next gen.
 

DieH@rd

Banned
That trailer actually looked insane when it came out [i remember the meltdowns here @ gaf], but as the years went PS3 developers really extracted every ounce of power from that console.

We never got that kind of animation for every single soldier on the field, but visual quality that we got in other fields is astounding. I cant wait to see next year's e3 tech demos and target renders [SW1313 & Square demo are good starting points].
 

i-Lo

Member
that trailer is not that impressive anymore imho

The particle volume and effects are still one of the highlights. Given what we have seen from Starwars 1313 (modded UE3) and the fact that UE4 is emphasizing it in a big way gives me hope that that portion might be possible next-gen.
 

mckmas8808

Banned
The particle volume and effects are still one of the highlights. Given what we have seen from Starwars 1313 (modded UE3) and the fact that UE4 is emphasizing it in a big way gives me hope that that portion might be possible next-gen.

I hope so too.
 
Project 10 = Xbox361 ?

http://www.egmnow.com/articles/news/rumor-microsofts-next-xbox-codenamed-project-ten-coming-next-year/ said:
The current codename for the next Xbox is “Project Ten”
It will be coming in time for next year’s holiday season
The UI will be heavily based around Microsoft’s “Metro” style of user interface (the current interface for Windows Phone 7, and the style both the Xbox 360 and Windows 8 are moving to)
The console’s OS will have Microsoft’s Silverlight technology deeply embedded in it (potentially for uses such as media functionality)
Microsoft will be going the “Apple route” with Project Ten, meaning the console will extensively integrate with Windows 8 and Windows Phone for better cross-platform functionality

Xbox 361, cheaper Xbox360 with more features: Page 50

HDMI pass-thru (IF the PS3 had this then Google TV would be possible)
HD-Homerun => access to a Homerun Digital TV tuner (just software support needed) I've got one and it's a 2 digital tuner (Cable and Air) connected to network.
XTV with full 1080P and overlays (Not possible on Xbox 360)

More is implied here, HDMI pass-through implies always on low power modes, Xbox361 as the only input to your TV with it controlling your picture with overlays, windows with information from the web and more.

So this is similar to what we were speculating a PS3.5 would have.

Xbox361 and Slimmer Slim PS3.5 released this holiday season?
 
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