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PS5 and Xbox Series X GPU TFLOPs Difference “Probably” Won’t Matter in the Long Run – Hellpoint Developer

Thirty7ven

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There was a really big difference between the PS2 and the Xbox. I know PS2 was a fillrate monster for its time and could ease through transparency effects while Xbox struggled but... they were almost two years apart - it came out in March 2000, the Xbox in November 2001 - and MS basically put a PC together with off the shelf parts and came out with a HUGE box that was a money sink for the company. I had one and I loved it, Chaos Theory was INSANE!
 

Lethal01

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Yes, load times better with more details. Ok what is it going to change, and what is it going to do things that nothing else is capable of?



Indeed. “it’s a game-changer” whilst not knowing what it is going to change. Lol


Are you saying that having an SSD in the consoles isn't a game-changer? Being able to instantly swap scenes definitely open up a lot of possibilities. Being able to "Just" walk through a door and being in a big open building is huge, Not having to keep the world loaded in the background is huge since it lets you boost the detail on the inside. Being able to instantly swap characters to a character in a totally different place even in a super detailed world is another random idea for something that would be very hard to do without the SSD.

Not having to put an extra room between the outside and the inside to hide the 20 seconds of loading is huge. It's a game-changer because developers will have to throw random stuff into the game to get around hardware issues and focus more on what would actually make the game better.

I don't know if the ps5 being twice as face as the xbox will be a huge difference. But I definitely won't say that there isn't a chance that the xbox being half the speed of ps5 doesn't mean that they still do have to lean on a couple crutches to hide loading.

In short, not designing around loading screen is a game-changer.
 
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Uncharted bunghole


Looking at it from a marketing point of view. Compared to last gen systems the SSD is the biggest upgrade. We are talking about an over 1000% upgrade if I'm not mistaken and that's a huge deal plus it will be extremely noticeable.

Which is why like Sony they are making a big deal out of it and rightfully so.

Remember just because it's not as good as Sonys solution doesn't mean that it isn't a massive upgrade from last gen systems. And if you look at it by itself it's still an awesome piece of hardware in the system.
 

Leyasu

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Are you saying that having an SSD in the consoles isn't a game-changer? Being able to instantly swap scenes definitely open up a lot of possibilities. Being able to "Just" walk through a door and being in a big open building is huge, Not having to keep the world loaded in the background is huge since it lets you boost the detail on the inside. Being able to instantly swap characters to a character in a totally different place even in a super detailed world is another random idea for something that would be very hard to do without the SSD.

Not having to put an extra room between the outside and the inside to hide the 20 seconds of loading is huge. It's a game-changer because developers will have to throw random stuff into the game to get around hardware issues and focus more on what would actually make the game better.

I don't know if the ps5 being twice as face as the xbox will be a huge difference. But I definitely won't say that there isn't a chance that the xbox being half the speed of ps5 doesn't mean that they still do have to lean on a couple crutches to hide loading.

In short, not designing around loading screen is a game-changer.
Yes those are great things no doubt. But by extension they are still nothing more than faster loading.

Devs won’t have to design their games around that, they will just not have to make the crawl spaces and things like that. But let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that having the fastest SSD is going to open up possibilities that can only be had with it.

I cannot think of anything or have yet to see one dev/insider or forum post give one example of anything that will only be possible on the ps5 because of its SSD.

I am not downplaying it, I just want to have something ta base my expectations on. Everything that I have seen just boils down to loading times.
 

Lethal01

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Yes those are great things no doubt. But by extension they are still nothing more than faster loading.

Devs won’t have to design their games around that, they will just not have to make the crawl spaces and things like that. But let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that having the fastest SSD is going to open up possibilities that can only be had with it.

I cannot think of anything or have yet to see one dev/insider or forum post give one example of anything that will only be possible on the ps5 because of its SSD.

I am not downplaying it, I just want to have something ta base my expectations on. Everything that I have seen just boils down to loading times.

Not having loading times is a giant game-changer.
yes you could technically make a game where you instantly switch between characters in two different locales, if you make both locations to be in ram at any point or you make the player have to wait 30 seconds between switching.

There is your example of something that isn't possible.
 
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psorcerer

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Everything that I have seen just boils down to loading times.

Everything in game can be boiled down to the loading times.
Any game is a huge dataset of predictably streamable data that's loaded into memory.
In that regard games are much simpler than even simplest productivity software where what user will do or what data needs to be loaded is completely random at times.
So, your claim is tautology, it doesn't build any useful model of reality...
 

Thirty7ven

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Yes those are great things no doubt. But by extension they are still nothing more than faster loading.

Devs won’t have to design their games around that, they will just not have to make the crawl spaces and things like that. But let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that having the fastest SSD is going to open up possibilities that can only be had with it.

I cannot think of anything or have yet to see one dev/insider or forum post give one example of anything that will only be possible on the ps5 because of its SSD.

I am not downplaying it, I just want to have something ta base my expectations on. Everything that I have seen just boils down to loading times.

If you consider a first party exclusive, devs will have twice the freedom to fill a game “scene” with unique animations, assets, textures, sounds...

Of course I don’t think you can make a game on the PS5 that you can’t on the XSX, it doesn’t work that way. But you could create moments that can’t be translated 1:1.

These consoles are both true next generation consoles in every sense of the word, and aside from exclusives I expect differences in games to amount to very little. I can see OS and Controller marking the biggest differences by far in your daily usage.
 
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psorcerer

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yes you could technically make a game where you instantly switch between characters in two different locales, if you make both locations to be in ram at any point or you make the player have to wait 30 seconds between switching.

- each room in a building is taking a 90% of usable RAM while you open the door, huge asset variety and detail per instance
- instant time travel, scenery will change from modern to ancient in 2 seconds, and you can switch back and forth any time
- live geometry changes, destruction, tear, etc. that will stay that way
- infinite detail: flying and landing is instantaneous, closeups bring intricate detail maps.
 
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Trimesh

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You mean best breast tracing ?

Clearly that's going to be one of the functions of the BPE - but it also handles other important features like jiggle and bounce emulation. Some important up-front features (such as nonlinear anisotropic boobage modelling) are highly compute intensive and hence also impacted by the raw tittyflops numbers.
 
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ZywyPL

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Well it's a good thing that they can also make small worlds with higher levels of detail & still have large datasets

I really wish we could go back to smaller, more linear games, I can only imagine what the devs/artist could achieve.
 

D.Final

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Clearly that's going to be one of the functions of the BPE - but it also handles other important features like jiggle and bounce emulation. Some important up-front features (such as nonlinear anisotropic boobage modelling) are highly compute intensive and hence also impacted by the raw tittyflops numbers.

I agree
 

Leyasu

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Everything in game can be boiled down to the loading times.
Any game is a huge dataset of predictably streamable data that's loaded into memory.
In that regard games are much simpler than even simplest productivity software where what user will do or what data needs to be loaded is completely random at times.
So, your claim is tautology, it doesn't build any useful model of reality...
Can you give everybody some examples of future games that will only be possible on the ps5?
 

Leyasu

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- each room in a building is taking a 90% of usable RAM while you open the door, huge asset variety and detail per instance
- instant time travel, scenery will change from modern to ancient in 2 seconds, and you can switch back and forth any time
- live geometry changes, destruction, tear, etc. that will stay that way
- infinite detail: flying and landing is instantaneous, closeups bring intricate detail maps.
All that would be possible on most SSDs no? Perhaps a couple of seconds behind.

Good stuff, but nothing that people weren’t expecting with the inclusion of SSDs. On here and elsewhere I have been reading about things that will only be possible on the ps5. I would like to know what sort of things?
 

Tamy

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All that would be possible on most SSDs no? Perhaps a couple of seconds behind.

Good stuff, but nothing that people weren’t expecting with the inclusion of SSDs. On here and elsewhere I have been reading about things that will only be possible on the ps5. I would like to know what sort of things?

of course, SSD is SSD. Even XSX has a faster SSD than anything out there on PC (right now).

You know, if XSX would only have a traditional HDD, then oh yeah I would agree, the difference would be HUGE, BUT XSX has a very fast SSD right now and a great compression etc. so anything that is possible on PS5, will be on XSX, too.
 
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psorcerer

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All that would be possible on most SSDs no? Perhaps a couple of seconds behind.

Nope. It would be possible only on SSDs that have pretty high random access rates (not really random, but it needs to support a fast "gather" operation, where a lot of small data chunks in various places of the flash chips are gathered into a big response packet).
We do know that PS5 has that from the Cerny's interview. We don't really know if XBSX is up to the task yet. Maybe it is, but there was nothing in their presentation about it.

Now we also know that XBSX has at least 2x slower drive. Which means a lot of optimizations will be much harder to make.
Examples:
- your walking speed needs to be 2x slower to load the data in time that you arrive to the object (or you will load 2x less assets)
- your turning speed needs to be lower (or load 2x less assets)
- geometry/reality changes need to happen at 2x slower rates
etc.
If XBSX had 2x RAM than PS5 I would say that there is probably some parity, because you can just load more stuff in RAM and then effectively you need to load things 2x less frequently.
But it seems like XBSX will have even less usable RAM than PS5...
 
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What sort of game? What can people expect?

Everyone keeps talking about the SSD like it is going to change the world, so what is it going to change exactly?
Its fundamentally changing the way games are being built. That in of itself is MASSIVE no matter how you wanna slice it.

Developers have freedom to push the envelop when high quality asset streaming (or assets in general) is no longer an issue. Current gen games mask the limitations of streaming in various ways. That has been completely removed from next gen and then some.

I'm not in any way a technician but I'm on this forum often enough to read and pick up what these next gen machines can offer us and going by what devs are saying. SSD's is the game changer come next gen that should allow for ridiculous visuals and possibly even new types of games.
 
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Thirty7ven

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Is animation and physics not tied to the CPU?

Just asking.

Real time physics are tied to CPU(And GPU if devs choose it). Animation is data driven. The CPU of course will always play a part in real time blending, but the bottlenecks are data related.

And then of course if you can move enough data in and out you can a lot animation that looks like physics. For example the movement t of a tree in relation to the wind.
 
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Real time physics are tied to CPU(And GPU if devs choose it). Animation is data driven. The CPU of course will always play a part in real time blending, but the bottlenecks are data related.

And then of course if you can move enough data in and out you can a lot animation that looks like physics. For example the movement t of a tree in relation to the wind.
Oh ok. Good to know. Thanks for the explanation.
 
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Leyasu

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Nope. It would be possible only on SSDs that have pretty high random access rates (not really random, but it needs to support a fast "gather" operation, where a lot of small data chunks in various places of the flash chips are gathered into a big response packet).
We do know that PS5 has that from the Cerny's interview. We don't really know if XBSX is up to the task yet. Maybe it is, but there was nothing in their presentation about it.

Now we also know that XBSX has at least 2x slower drive. Which means a lot of optimizations will be much harder to make.
Examples:
- your walking speed needs to be 2x slower to load the data in time that you arrive to the object (or you will load 2x less assets)
- your turning speed needs to be lower (or load 2x less assets)
- geometry/reality changes need to happen at 2x slower rates
etc.
If XBSX had 2x RAM than PS5 I would say that there is probably some parity, because you can just load more stuff in RAM and then effectively you need to load things 2x less frequently.
But it seems like XBSX will have even less usable RAM than PS5...
None of that seems right at all.

How have devs been making games with these slow HDDs if everything needs to be twice as slow on the XsX vs the ps5?

I get that transition loading will be say 4 seconds vs 2. Nothing else makes sense
 
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Thirty7ven

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None of that seems right at all.

How have devs been making games with these slow HDDs if everything needs to be twice as slow on the XsX vs the ps5?

I get that transition loading will be say 4 seconds vs 2. Nothing else makes sense

What you said doesn't make sense. The HDD on PS4 and Xbox One are the same speed, therefore any limitations one has the other has too.

But I'll give you two examples in practice, picking one of his examples - geometry/reality changes:

- An horror scenario. A bunch of men come after you in a forest and surround you, they howl to the night sky and you see them turn into Werewolves.

- A sci Fi scenario. Think Inception or the Matrix simulation, where the world around you and its people change in front of you.

Can either of those be done on Xbox Series X? Yes, of course. But will the effect be more seamless and accomplished, or more complex looking on the PS5, closer to original artist's vision? Absolutely. Is it just loading? Well...yeah sure, but when you say it like that you are dismissing something that has a big practical impact on what happens on screen.
 
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psorcerer

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How have devs been making games with these slow HDDs if everything needs to be twice as slow on the XsX vs the ps5?

I'm not sure I follow, HDDs are so slow that nothing of what I've described is possible there at all.

I get that transition loading will be say 4 seconds vs 2.

I think you're talking about unrelated stuff.
Most of the time people say "show me what's possible with SSD" I get the same cognitive dissonance reaction.
You just don't want to listen, do you?
 
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Leyasu

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What you said doesn't make sense. The HDD on PS4 and Xbox One are the same speed, therefore any limitations one has the other has too.

But I'll give you two examples in practice, picking one of his examples - geometry/reality changes:

- An horror scenario. A bunch of men come after you in a forest and surround you, they howl to the night sky and you see them turn into Werewolves.

- A sci Fi scenario. Think Inception or the Matrix simulation, where the world around you and its people change in front of you.

Can either of those be done on Xbox Series X? Yes, of course. But will the effect be more seamless and accomplished, or more complex looking on the PS5, closer to original artist's vision? Absolutely. Is it just loading? Well...yeah sure, but when you say it like that you are dismissing something that has a big practical impact on what happens on screen.
I see what you mean..

I don't mean to diminish anything. At the end of the day, if they are going to be the only differences, then it is nothing worth sweating over. Devs will make the transition/filler scenes slightly longer on one than on the other,
 

Leyasu

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I'm not sure I follow, HDDs are so slow that nothing of what I've described is possible there at all.



I think you're talking about unrelated stuff.
Most of the time people say "show me what's possible with SSD" I get the same cognitive dissonance reaction.
You just don't want to listen, do you?

I am all ears.
The problem is that you and everyone else trumpeting the SSD difference can only come up with things that are going to load in a second or two faster. All this nonsense I read on the net about how things are only going to be possible on the PS5 because of its SSD speed are nothing but wet dreams and fantasies.

A 1 second transition vs a 3 second transition is nothing. A world switching in the same time is also not a great deal. When people ask for examples of what is and what is not going to be possible, it is because people can't see how a couple of seconds here and there are going to make things impossible., and think immediately of loading times. Not Worlds or games that are impossible on one, yet doable on another.


Enlighten us with firm examples of the types of games we can only expect on the PS5. With types of games and the gameplay that WILL ONLY BE POSSIBLE on it.

Everyone, myself more than most is interested.

Thanks in advance
 
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Thirty7ven

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I see what you mean..

I don't mean to diminish anything. At the end of the day, if they are going to be the only differences, then it is nothing worth sweating over. Devs will make the transition/filler scenes slightly longer on one than on the other,

Of course it's not worth sweating over. The only people who sweat over it are the ones who boast over a ~18% difference in TF. Developers work around limitations all the time, it's most of their job.

But still it's important to stress that more data, more detail. Just more of it, from animation to sound to textures. Of course it also means less loading screens or shorter loading, but it actually means more loading ironically enough.
 
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ZywyPL

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Told you.
 

psorcerer

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I am all ears.
The problem is that you and everyone else trumpeting the SSD difference can only come up with things that are going to load in a second or two faster. All this nonsense I read on the net about how things are only going to be possible on the PS5 because of its SSD speed are nothing but wet dreams and fantasies.

A 1 second transition vs a 3 second transition is nothing. A world switching in the same time is also not a great deal. When people ask for examples of what is and what is not going to be possible, it is because people can't see how a couple of seconds here and there are going to make things impossible., and think immediately of loading times. Not Worlds or games that are impossible on one, yet doable on another.


Enlighten us with firm examples of the types of games we can only expect on the PS5. With types of games and the gameplay that WILL ONLY BE POSSIBLE on it.

Everyone, myself more than most is interested.

Thanks in advance

I have already described how it can work and why it will be not "impossible" but just 2x worse on XBSX.
Please read.
 
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Romulus

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Oh, I guess there may have been exceptions, depending on who was doing the porting. But in general, most multiplats I played were near identical on all three.

Some of the biggest multiplatform gaps ever were during that generation. You literally had like 40+ examples of xbox pushing native 720p, which was mind boggling at the time over 480p or even 480i.
 
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Sigh. IT IS ALL RELATIVE BRUH :messenger_kissing_smiling:

PS4 = 1.84 tflops
XboxOne = 1.31 tflops
= 0.53 tflops differential. And here comes the kicker: 0.53 tflops = 40% of the total amount of tflops of the XboxOne.

Not so surprising now huh. Of course PS4 often ran games @ a higher resolution (what also helped was the faster pool of RAM on PS4 of course)

PS5 = 10.28 tflops
Xbox Series X = 12 tflops
= 1.72 tflops differential. This is 16.7% of the total ammount of tflops in PS5.

Therefor, I also think the actual difference in games will be smaller next-gen compared to current gen.

I do think Xbox Series X will have one big advantage over PS5: more capable raytracing (smaller FPS hit). Because of it having actually more CU's (52 VS 36).
This!
I can totally see "same" articles, if situation would be reversed : D
See the contortion in this one:
https://www.cnet.com/news/xbox-one-vs-playstation-4-57588650/

where they have gems like:
You might read about the PS4's specs trumping that of the Xbox One's, but it's important to keep in mind how that translates into actual results. Remember that the PS3 was originally poised to be a massive powerhouse over the Xbox 360, but in reality didn't perform much better. You could even make the argument that most multiplatform games played smoother and looked better on the Xbox 360.

So while the PS4 may have quicker RAM, a faster GPU, and higher native resolution (1080p), we just don't know how those numbers will pan out when it comes to raw results and performance.
 
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