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PS5 hardware based Ray-Tracing vs Xbox Series X hardware accelerated Ray Tracing: Is there a difference in the tech or just the wording?

Heinrich

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Anything involving lighting tech I would trust Sony to have an advantage. The I.C.E team and VASG would know what the next step is for hardware and software solutions
lol „Trust“ doesn’t matter who you „trust“ this is about facts.
Fact is: Microsoft uses DEDICATED HARDWARE cores for ray tracing, whereas Sony is using not a dedicated chip, so of course MS‘ solution is better but much more expensive of course.
 

Hobbygaming

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lol „Trust“ doesn’t matter who you „trust“ this is about facts.
Fact is: Microsoft uses DEDICATED HARDWARE cores for ray tracing, whereas Sony is using not a dedicated chip, so of course MS‘ solution is better but much more expensive of course.
Sony's hardware-based raytracing in the GPU might be even more "dedicated" than those cores 😀 We'll have to wait and see
 

trikster40

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We are still a year away from launch and I’m already sick and tired of next-gen already. Can we at least wait until all of the final specs are released and let DF tell us which one will give us a blowjob while we play?
 
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pawel86ck

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Hardware ray tracing accelerator (contained within APU die) for shadows, reflections, global illumination & particles.

  1. PS5 Latest Proposed Core Specification - 06/01/2020 (base model, not PS5 Pro)

  2. APU:
  3. Zen2 semi-custom 7nm CPU with 8 cores/16 threads @ 3.50GHz.
  4. RDNA2 semi-custom 7nm GPU with 40 CU's @ 2.0GHz (up to 10.25 Tflops peak).
  5. Double rate fp16, variable rate shading, integrated geometry culling via GPU.
  6. Hardware ray tracing accelerator (contained within APU die) for shadows, reflections, global illumination & particles.

  7. Memory:
  8. 16GB GDDR6 (video) and additional 4GB DDR4 (system) linked to a RISC storage processor.
  9. At least 512 GB/s bandwidth via 256-bit memory interface (GDDR6 video memory modules).

  10. Storage:
  11. 1TB semi-custom NVMe SSD with 1TB 7,200 RPM HDD. Both drives are managed 'together' by the RISC storage processor.

  12. Availability:
  13. Launching on November 20th, 2020 @ $399 (USD) with one controller and one first party game. Various game bundles tbc.



The part about console deals is particularly interesting. Could Adshir's LocalRay be featured in one (or both) next-generation consoles from Sony and Microsoft?
It looks like MS and Sony will use different HW RT methods.
 
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01011001

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here is the thing, I think that Sony will have dedicated hardware to accelerate raytracing.

BUT! I think they wording is just awful here.
if you say "Hardware Accelerated" it is 100% clear what you mean. there is no way to misinterpret that and if you lie about that you will get a lot of shit for it.
but it you say "Hardware Based" there is a lot of wiggle-room. anything that your damn system puts on a screen is hardware based, it means basically nothing. it could mean that a bunch of your cores are set aside to only do raytracing for example.
that is different from Accelerated, where the standard interpretation is that there is specific hardware that was designed to specifically do raytracing calculations.

so I think Sony has to stop this and use the word "accelerated" not "based".

there's also the possibility that they actually don't have specific hardware in place and really try to weasel their way around that topic through vague wording, in which case they will see a lot of backlash (which is why I don't think they're doing that)


so in short, stop your shit Sony and use the word Accelerated for fucks sake! So people stop making more and more threads about your console!
 
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Sophist

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Hardware based does mean that the technique has been implemented with hardware instead of software but doesn't necessary imply acceleration. An example would be operating system privileges that can be software or hardware based. Another example would be controlling the audio volume using a button (hardware based) vs using a GUI slider (software based).
 
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Rolling_Start

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It looks like MS and Sony will use different HW RT methods.
I don't think there's going to be a separate ray tracing chip in addition to the APU. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Ray tracing, and rasterizing aren't completely separate stages in a rendering pipeline. Ray tracing may be conditional based on a shader results, and intersections may spawn or feed data back into a shader conditionally. Trying to schedule all that efficiently between two different chips connected via an external bus would be a nightmare.

It would also add to the complexity of engineering and manufacturing the system.
 

Kdad

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We are still a year away from launch and I’m already sick and tired of next-gen already. Can we at least wait until all of the final specs are released and let DF tell us which one will give us a blowjob while we play?
I'm starting a Next Next Gen speculation thread...come join me!
 
Jan 29, 2019
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lol „Trust“ doesn’t matter who you „trust“ this is about facts.
Fact is: Microsoft uses DEDICATED HARDWARE cores for ray tracing, whereas Sony is using not a dedicated chip, so of course MS‘ solution is better but much more expensive of course.
Another blow hard Xbox ... Whatever, there is really nothing to talk about until we have seen what's released in a couple of months.

That whole thing reminds me of 2013 in many ways:
MS fans kept saying Sony would have the same type of copy restrictions as MS... Ooops

Then on price, the Xbox one's APU cost more to manufacture than the PS4's because they made some stupid engineering decisions in development, it also performed worse!

Now like a beaten girlfriend you keep coming back to your abuser for more, good, just stop complaining when it happens again.
 
Jan 29, 2019
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Hardware ray tracing accelerator (contained within APU die) for shadows, reflections, global illumination & particles.





It looks like MS and Sony will use different HW RT methods.
Thanks!

That's a scenario I suspected for Sony's approach, I'm both happy and surprised that there is some validation of this approach! At least in the rumor mill.
 
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Oct 26, 2018
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Sounds like semantics to me.

If I try to sell you a bag of Ultra Potato Chips, and my brother wants to sell you a bag of Supreme Potato Chips, which is better?
 

Lampiao

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Could that visit from Nvidia guy to Sony be related to a possible RT solution partnership?
 

VFXVeteran

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No one has considered this obvious conclusion : NEITHER of them support the hardware RT that is found in Nvidia's Turing. They will both have CUs that do RT like the software demos that use the depth pass for casting rays.
 

onQ123

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No one has considered this obvious conclusion : NEITHER of them support the hardware RT that is found in Nvidia's Turing. They will both have CUs that do RT like the software demos that use the depth pass for casting rays.
That would be shader based ray tracing , PS5 power point clearly says "Hardware Based Ray Tracing" & Xbox SE says "Hardware Accelerated Ray Tracing"
 
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VFXVeteran

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That would be shader based ray tracing , PS5 power point clearly says "Hardware Based Ray Tracing" & Xbox SE says "Hardware Accelerated Ray Tracing"
I don't care what the powerpoint slides say. We haven't seen slides that say "RT Cores" or any specs.. so I assume they are using shader based ray tracing -- which is "technically" hardware-based or accelerated since it's not using the CPU.
 

DeepEnigma

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lol „Trust“ doesn’t matter who you „trust“ this is about facts.
Fact is: Microsoft uses DEDICATED HARDWARE cores for ray tracing, whereas Sony is using not a dedicated chip, so of course MS‘ solution is better but much more expensive of course.
It never ends. :messenger_smirking:
 
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quest

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I don't care what the powerpoint slides say. We haven't seen slides that say "RT Cores" or any specs.. so I assume they are using shader based ray tracing -- which is "technically" hardware-based or accelerated since it's not using the CPU.
Reading the AMD patents as a layman that is how I assume it will be. The intersection testing hardware in the TMUs. The CUs will do the rest of the work hybrid approach to save transistors and die space. The CU handle bhv traversal and calls out to the intersection engine. As you say no real RT cores like nvidia. As professional how much slower do you see this being and is it worth the die space saved until RT is more used?
 

DemonCleaner

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Reading the AMD patents as a layman that is how I assume it will be. The intersection testing hardware in the TMUs. The CUs will do the rest of the work hybrid approach to save transistors and die space. The CU handle bhv traversal and calls out to the intersection engine. As you say no real RT cores like nvidia. As professional how much slower do you see this being and is it worth the die space saved until RT is more used?
i don't really see why you aksing him this question. his stance (as he stated repeatetly) is cleary that consoles won't use hardware acceleration in a sense like RTX is doing it but relying on a shaderbased solution like in the recent cryengine raytracing demo. there it is realized through software shaders and therefore levels of abstraction. that's not what sony nor MS are talking about, when they say hardware base or hardware accelerated. software shaders must not be confused with hardware shader cores.

on the mentioned AMD patent: first of all, we are not sure that this really will come to fruition in nextgen. if it did, that was the smart way of doing it -> what we have seen in the past year of raytracing in games is that you can't do steps of the rasterization pipeline in concurrency to the RT pipeline. that's why it's rather dumb to waste die space on additional chip logic if you can do parts of the work on existing shader cores because they wouldn't work at the same time anyways.

at this point i have to stress that this is in no way the same as a software shader solution as realized in cryengine. there has to be physical routing on the CUs to connect the additinal intersection testing TMUs to the CUs. that's hardware acceleration however you spin it. even if it's not the same way of doing things as nvidia. will it be as good as nvidias solution? only amd knows this at that point. and if not, it will still be orders of magnitude more powerful than a (software) shader based solution like shown in cryengine.
 

DJ12

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I don't think there's going to be a separate ray tracing chip in addition to the APU. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Ray tracing, and rasterizing aren't completely separate stages in a rendering pipeline. Ray tracing may be conditional based on a shader results, and intersections may spawn or feed data back into a shader conditionally. Trying to schedule all that efficiently between two different chips connected via an external bus would be a nightmare.

It would also add to the complexity of engineering and manufacturing the system.
Looks like that person has seen something I posted here a couple of days ago and fucked it up.

Sony clearly have an advanced solution for ray tracing as they showed it over a year ago.

What amd have probably done is integrate this technology into the GPU. The extra chip external to the Apu is an incredible stupid idea but one added into it makes a lot of sense.
 

Whitecrow

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If Sony is not using MAD's solution for RT, makes sense to have it in a separate chip... I guess?
 

Agnostic2020

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Can we just stop this non sense . Both will use same tech from amd cause devs will not have time to cater to 2 different ray tracing methods for such a niche feature
 

o'dium

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Niche?

Haha...

No.

Trust me going into next gen, ray tracing will be used everywhere it can be. You’ve given the kids a new toy. So prepare to see it used anywhere and everywhere. And to you kids who don’t actually understand, no, not just on reflections.

Do you remember when bloom was first created and every game had it? Well, this is bloom 2.0...
 

GymWolf

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How about forgetting this fucking rtx so we can have REAL 4k games with really improved graphics and physics instead of some shiny exagerated reflection who eat resources like a pornostar eat dicks??
 
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Whitecrow

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How about forgetting this fucking rtx so we can have REAL 4k games with really improved graphics and physics instead of some shiny exagerated reflection who eat resources like a pornostar eat dicks??
Well, we can just remove all illumination systems and go back to ps2/n64 era with all flat textures and get 8k 120fps easily, since immersion seems irrelevant to some of you...
 

GymWolf

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Well, we can just remove all illumination systems and go back to ps2/n64 era with all flat textures and get 8k 120fps easily, since immersion seems irrelevant to some of you...
Yeah because immersion was not a thing before rtx, lol...
 

onQ123

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I don't care what the powerpoint slides say. We haven't seen slides that say "RT Cores" or any specs.. so I assume they are using shader based ray tracing -- which is "technically" hardware-based or accelerated since it's not using the CPU.
You just did

 
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onQ123

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How about forgetting this fucking rtx so we can have REAL 4k games with really improved graphics and physics instead of some shiny exagerated reflection who eat resources like a pornostar eat dicks??
But Ray-tracing improves graphics & physics though & if the hardware is built for it moving the lighting & shadows to the ray tracing hardware would save resources not waste it.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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How about forgetting this fucking rtx so we can have REAL 4k games with really improved graphics and physics instead of some shiny exagerated reflection who eat resources like a pornostar eat dicks??
Better get ready to wear sunglasses when playing games.

Going by those RT demos where every corner is lit up with lights and reflections (I never knew every type of flooring could be polished to reflect like a mirror), prepare yourself for every RT game to look like this:

(this is an old image I found with bloom effects, but you get the idea)

 
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GymWolf

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But Ray-tracing improves graphics & physics though & if the hardware is built for it moving the lighting & shadows to the ray tracing hardware would save resources not waste it.
Listen, i even have a rtx capable gpu but console are different, they don't have the same power of a pc and i vastly prefer real 4k and not that fucking checkboard shit for future games, (also a real jump in graphics)

Rtx is resources hungry and we all know that, i'm more of a raw details guy instead of a shadow\reflection guy, matter of taste and priority i guess.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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Rtx is resources hungry and we all know that, i'm more of a raw details guy instead of a shadow\reflection guy, matter of taste and priority i guess.
Looks like it'll be another generation where gamers ask devs where's all the awesome physics, AI and animation improvements.

"Sorry gamers, I know we've been saying for 20 years systems aren't powerful enough yet, but it still applies. The new RT visuals we are jamming into next gen games doesn't leave enough resources for other things. Maybe in the year 2025. Bye"
 

GymWolf

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Better get ready to wear sunglasses when playing games.

Going by those RT demos where every corner is lit up with lights and reflections (I never knew every type of flooring could be polished to reflect like a mirror), prepare yourself for every RT game to look like this:

(this is an old image I found with bloom effects, but you get the idea)

I was crying of laugh during that battlefield 5 demo back in the days...
 

onQ123

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Listen, i even have a rtx capable gpu but console are different, they don't have the same power of a pc and i vastly prefer real 4k and not that fucking checkboard shit for future games, (also a real jump in graphics)

Rtx is resources hungry and we all know that, i'm more of a raw details guy instead of a shadow\reflection guy, matter of taste and priority i guess.
You're actually thinking backwards because consoles have a fixed spec so games could be made with the specs in mind so if the dev know the ray-tracing hardware is there they can make the game without wasting GPU/CPU & time doing stuff that can be done better using ray tracing. On PC they have to have a fall back for when people don't have ray-tracing hardware.
 
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GymWolf

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Looks like it'll be another generation where gamers ask devs where's all the awesome physics, AI and animation improvements.

"Sorry gamers, I know we've been saying for 20 years systems aren't powerful enough yet, but it still applies. The new RT visuals we are jamming into next gen games doesn't leave enough resources for other things. Maybe in the year 2025. Bye"
I'm not sure if you are joking or not :lollipop_grinning_sweat:

But yeah it's kinda what i'm trying to say.
For me on a 9 tf console, rtx are a waste of resources.
 
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megreotsugua

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We will know eventually once the specs are revealed. So far supposed "insiders" are saying that PS5 has the advantage in Ray-tracing. We'll see.
 

GymWolf

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You're actually thinking backwards because consoles have a fixed spec so games could be made with the specs in mind so if the dev know the ray-tracing hardware is there they can make the game without wasting GPU/CPU & time doing stuff that can be done better using ray tracing. On PC they have a fall back for when people don't have ray-tracing hardware.
Yeah but rtx is still heavy on the system, it doesn't become more lighter in a closed hardware, maybe more manageable but not less heavy.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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I was crying of laugh during that battlefield 5 demo back in the days...
I like how my polished kitchen island has a light fixture right above it. The amount of reflections that comes off it is limited (even if it's the only lights on in the kitchen), and for the reflections that do happen, it sources from my steel appliances.

Yet somehow an RT demo of people walking through rough dungeon walls with a torch as a light source can do more reflections.

lol
 
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