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[BreakOut]

So I am playing Elden Ring on the PlayStation and I enabled VRR. I put it on quality instead of performance and everything is pretty smooth and well now, I pull up my VRR information and the problem is the game dips on occasion below 48. More often than not in any open area at least. I keep seeing this and thinking if it was even 40hz instead of 48hz the experience in most games would be significant. Tales of arise is another situation were just a few fps would make a difference.
So I’ve got a question for people who understand this technology why 48? Is there an actual reason for this number to be chosen in order to accomplish some thing? I tried looking this up online and everyone seems to have a different answer. So maybe no one knows. Maybe just choice, but if anyone does I’m really interested in knowing why. Just one of those things I can’t get off my mind.

 

[kyliethicc]

The HDMI Forum Standard VRR is 48-120 Hz.

 

[BreakOut]

The HDMI Forum Standard VRR is 48-120 Hz.

Oh I guess that clears that up. Lol. Is there no way to cheat that system? Or is that why Sony is doing this whole patch of games for VRR?

 

[Zathalus]

Can Sony change it? Sure.

Will they? Who knows.

 

[kyliethicc]

Oh I guess that clears that up. Lol. Is there no way to cheat that system? Or is that why Sony is doing this whole patch of games for VRR?

They probably could have chosen to add support for AMD FreeSync but they don’t really care.

PS5 and Sony TVs support the same HDMI VRR range.

 

[kraspkibble]

The HDMI Forum Standard VRR is 48-120 Hz.

HDMI can do 20-165hz no problem.

It's up to Sony if they want to push it that far though. 48-120hz is the easy and safe option.

Xbox consoles can do 40-120hz. TVs can do 20-120hz. PC monitors over HDMI can do 20-165hz.

source: i own an xbox, tv, and PC monitor which run HDMI VRR at those frequencies.

 

[Killer8]

Oh I guess that clears that up. Lol. Is there no way to cheat that system? Or is that why Sony is doing this whole patch of games for VRR?

If they implemented VRR as FreeSync, like Xbox does, then sure.

 

[nominedomine]

How sad is it that devs can't even guarantee a minimum of 48 fps on a game?

 

[kraspkibble]

How sad is it that devs can't even guarantee 48 fps on a game?

right? people are happy to get 40fps mode on PS5 lmfao. ALL games in 2022 should be able to do 60fps at least.

 

[ParaSeoul]

Because first party games won't drop below that

 

[kraspkibble]

Because first party games won't drop below that

if that's the case then why bother with VRR at all? First party games should be rock solid 120hz with no frame drops at all

 

[ParaSeoul]

right? people are happy to get 40fps mode on PS5 lmfao. ALL games in 2022 should be able to do 60fps at least.

 

[kraspkibble]

yeah, ok, a cartoon looking game.

i'm pretty sure i saw threads on here about people wanting a 40fps option for games like God of War.

that shit should be running at 60+ fps. or maybe the PS5 isn't powerful enough?

 

[nominedomine]

right? people are happy to get 40fps mode on PS5 lmfao. ALL games in 2022 should be able to do 60fps at least.

VRR on a fixed system like a console should be just a backup system in case things go really bad and the framerate drops bellow the 60fps target.

Dropping to 40fps? Please.

 

[kraspkibble]

VRR on a fixed system like a console should be just a backup system in case things go really bad and the framerate drops bellow the 60fps target.

Dropping to 40fps? Please.

oh, i agree.

it wasn't me suggesting the games should run at 40fps lmao. please read what i say before replying next time.

 

[nominedomine]

oh, i agree.

it wasn't me suggesting the games should run at 40fps lmao. please read what i say before replying next time.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just hammering the point that no console game should depend on VRR to handle low frame rate.

VRR to allow for higher than 60 fps? Now that's pretty good.

 

[ParaSeoul]

yeah, ok, a cartoon looking game.

i'm pretty sure i saw threads on here about people wanting a 40fps option for games like God of War.

that shit should be running at 60+ fps. or maybe the PS5 isn't powerful enough?

Spider-Man got it too,both games. Remember to make posts like this at your own risk.

 

[Filben]

Sony could do that. But seeing how slow they are with even small updates I don't see that happening soon.

 

[kyliethicc]

Oh I guess that clears that up. Lol. Is there no way to cheat that system? Or is that why Sony is doing this whole patch of games for VRR?

timestamped

 

[BreakOut]

How sad is it that devs can't even guarantee a minimum of 48 fps on a game?

What sucks is on quality mode it seems to be the magic number is 47, I shit you not that is what I see the most on my VRR display. Accounting for it not being perfect when it comes to that displayed number… give or take but either way how close it is to 48 makes it even harder. I want them to seriously just drop the resolution of one texture in the game. Whatever one happens to appear the most.

 

[Skifi28]

Are they going to improve it? Short answer:

Yes /no /maybe.

 

[DeepEnigma]

right? people are happy to get 40fps mode on PS5 lmfao. ALL games in 2022 should be able to do 60fps at least.

Because it's 99.9% of the time. Locked. With all the bells and whistles graphically as 30 (since it's the same mode just enabled for 120hz panels). But with the benefits of 60fps latency and a much, much smoother feel than 30.

There's context and nuance.

As for the 48min... Devs should be hitting 55fps and above in a 60fps mode game, or get ridiculed.

 

[CamHostage]

So I am playing Elden Ring on the PlayStation and I enabled VRR. I put it on quality instead of performance and everything is pretty smooth and well now, I pull up my VRR information and the problem is the game dips on occasion below 48. More often than not in any open area at least. I keep seeing this and thinking if it was even 40hz instead of 48hz the experience in most games would be significant. Tales of arise is another situation were just a few fps would make a difference.

28 is 2x 24, the framerate of film, so I don't know why 48, but I would guess that might be related to why it has that numeric in the standard? (Not that you would need VRR for film though. 24FPS film is crystal-locked, it doesn't vary like videogames or whatever other video feed VRR is trying to deal with so there'd be no reason to conform a standard to it.)

As far as adding 40Hz as a baseline to VRR, maybe at a console-wide level that could be added to its functionality (right now Sony seems to be following the HDMI Licensing Administration protocol for official VRR implementation to the letter, whereas I think Xbox is a little more loosey-goosey and can go down to 40Hz.)

Since PS5 has per-game VRR implementation, however, if a game could run at 40Hz, probably the better choice would be just to run at a locked 40fps. There's a lot of confusion over 40 on here, but 40fps gives you significant perceptual and latency advantage over 30, and then it would be locked and correct rather than VRR working hard to even out the frames.

 

[CamHostage]

Because it's 99.9% of the time. Locked. With all the bells and whistles graphically as 30 (since it's the same mode just enabled for 120hz panels). But with the benefits of 60fps latency and a much, much smoother feel than 30.

There's context and nuance.

As for the 48min... Devs should be hitting 55fps and above in a 60fps mode game, or get ridiculed.

40FPS is a good thing.

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfo...into frame-time,the 60fps performance RT mode.

(It's weird, some people are demanding "60 or Bust!", which, okay, that's your hardline stance, but we're talking about VRR in this thread, which means the game isn't 60, so woulda-shoulda-coulda, but this is the reality of the situation, and it's not a bad reality if more developers adopted it.)

 

[proandrad]

Oh I guess that clears that up. Lol. Is there no way to cheat that system? Or is that why Sony is doing this whole patch of games for VRR?

People tend to think Sony just screwed up their VRR implementation. When the truth is hdmi VRR standard limits it to 48hz. Xbox supports VRR and freesync and freesync has a wider range and low frame rate compensation to get around this. The answer is for Sony to also support freesync.

 

[ReBurn]

right? people are happy to get 40fps mode on PS5 lmfao. ALL games in 2022 should be able to do 60fps at least.

Technically all games could run at 60 FPS if developers prioritized it in their rendering budget. It would mean sacrificing parts of their vision to do it. So they elect to drop framerate to use the available power for other things. It's just not reasonable to expect that a 2019 hardware spec in 2022 would be capable of running whatever a developer wants throw at it at 60 FPS.

 

[yamaci17]

48-120 is irrelevant

anything below 48 can be LFC'ed with a 120 hz container

problem is PS5 not having a global 120 hz container. . elden ring's 60 fps performance mode has a container of 60 hz, therefore the screen cannot go above 60 hz despite being capable of it

if you're within a 60 hz container, and the game drops to 45 hz, game cannot use LFC to shoot up to 90 hz. if the game was in 120 hz container, it could, therefore it would be smooth and seamless

benefits of 120 hz container for 60 fps modes even when the game is capped at 60 fps:

- less screen input lag
- better overdrive
- being able to refresh at double the frame rate below 48 fps (45 fps - 90 hz, 43 fps - 86 hz, 40 fps - 80 hz) etc.

40 fps+80 hz (lfc setup) is MUCH better than 40 fps+40 hz.

LFC feature is supported by all types of VRR screens. Its not a specialty to Freesync. The console just has to have the ability to force 120 hz toggle. That's simple.

Its a simple switch for ALL the 60 fps games ever existed. Instead of syncing 60 fps to 60 hz, you just sync 60 fps to 120 hz with a 1/2 multiplier instead. its simple. all games that have a 30 fps-60 hz setup already supports 1/2 multiplier vsync. it is literally how the entire generation of games worked.SIMPLE as that. xbox does it. you can literally force 120 hz container for all games ever existed.

 

[Kerotan]

They probably could have chosen to add support for AMD FreeSync but they don’t really care.

PS5 and Sony TVs support the same HDMI VRR range.

Can they just support it or do they have to pay royalties to AMD?

 

[Jaybe]

Devs should include an unlocked performance (frames) mode now that VRR is more widely available.

 

[kyliethicc]

Can they just support it or do they have to pay royalties to AMD?

Doubt it’d be an issue, they use AMD SoCs.

Sony just doesn’t care about PC monitor features.

 

[rofif]

Devs should include an unlocked performance (frames) mode now that VRR is more widely available.

This would be ideal.
No modes at all. Just 1 old school, perfectly tuned game and unlocked fps for those who want to try on vrr or PRO consoles in the future.

 

[Swift_Star]

right? people are happy to get 40fps mode on PS5 lmfao. ALL games in 2022 should be able to do 60fps at least.

The 40fps capable games have 60fps modes.
Y'all have to stop making asinine comments.

 

[Swift_Star]

yeah, ok, a cartoon looking game.

i'm pretty sure i saw threads on here about people wanting a 40fps option for games like God of War.

that shit should be running at 60+ fps. or maybe the PS5 isn't powerful enough?

Yes, as an OPTION for those with 120Hz displays and want eye candy at a framerate higher than 30fps.
GoW will have a 60fps mode.
Again, stop making stupid comments.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

ps5 should support vrr down to 20hz.

every generation has games that target 30fps and end up in the 20s at times.

 

[omegasc]

Dear devs. If you are going to make a [Performance Mode] targetting 60fps+ available on PS5/XSX, please make sure it never drops below 50. Make more aggressive DRS, tone down that big effect that taxes some situations so much, but make sure your game basically never drops from 50.
Thank you.
edit: from benchmarks on PC I've used, I can kinda "feel" when framerate are below 50 even with VRR, that's why this is my chosen number. Feel free to select one that suits you best. But 50 is a nice, round number.

 

[DJ12]

As you all know I am a PS5 owner, but I don't really know anything about HDR.

If Sony do add a 120hz mode, will it mess up the HDR implementation with 422 at 120hz only being 8bit?

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

So I am playing Elden Ring on the PlayStation and I enabled VRR. I put it on quality instead of performance and everything is pretty smooth and well now, I pull up my VRR information and the problem is the game dips on occasion below 48. More often than not in any open area at least. I keep seeing this and thinking if it was even 40hz instead of 48hz the experience in most games would be significant. Tales of arise is another situation were just a few fps would make a difference.
So I’ve got a question for people who understand this technology why 48? Is there an actual reason for this number to be chosen in order to accomplish some thing? I tried looking this up online and everyone seems to have a different answer. So maybe no one knows. Maybe just choice, but if anyone does I’m really interested in knowing why. Just one of those things I can’t get off my mind.

It's because Sony didn't bother implementing LFC which is something every gaming VRR hardware company has done. First VRR came from Nvidia with LFC day 1, then AMD a year later, then Microsoft Xbox 3 years later and finally Sony 5 years later. Not only are Sony massively late but they also didn't do the bare minimum that was expected out of gaming VRR. Nowadays on PC with Nvidia you can have 1hz-360hz range. Back in 2013 Nvidia had LFC day one.

It's a shame that Sony in 2022 didn't match what Nvidia could do in 2013 when they introduced VRR to the world.

 

[kyliethicc]

As you all know I am a PS5 owner, but I don't really know anything about HDR.

If Sony do add a 120hz mode, will it mess up the HDR implementation with 422 at 120hz only being 8bit?

PS5 outputs 30/60 Hz games at 2160p @ 60 Hz HDR10 12 bit 4:4:4 RGB, including VRR 48-60 Hz.

PS5 outputs 120 Hz games at 2160p @ 120 Hz HDR10 12 bit 4:2:2 YUV, including VRR 48-120 Hz.

No issues either way, all games look and run how they should.

 

[DJ12]

PS5 outputs 30/60 Hz games at 2160p @ 60 Hz HDR10 12 bit 4:4:4 RGB, including VRR 48-60 Hz.

PS5 outputs 120 Hz games at 2160p @ 120 Hz HDR10 12 bit 4:2:2 YUV, including VRR 48-120 Hz.

No issues either way, all games look and run how they should.

Thanks

 

[Reallink]

Such a gross waste of headroom and resources on an under powered box just to ensure the Digital Foundaries of the YouTubes can't make 30 minute videos finding boss battles that drop to 55fps. So stupid to ignore the vast majority of the game that would run fine just to guarantee an extreme minority of trouble areas run flawless.

 

[BreakOut]

Do you think it’s Sony allowed for 1440P native set by the system Elden Ring with stay above 48 FPS? Or does that have no bearing? Honest question I truly don’t know if that plays a roll in anything.

 

[BreakOut]

right? people are happy to get 40fps mode on PS5 lmfao. ALL games in 2022 should be able to do 60fps at least.

I think the difference is having it set up specifically that way and utilizing the 120 Hz mode, ability to have ray tracing so well done in ratchet and clank and still have what feels close to 60 and arguably feels like 60 is extremely cool. This is not a PC, and while it would be great to get 60 FPS on a quality mode it probably won’t happen in games that choose to push resolution and high textures. It would be nice for sure, and probably the pro models will be able to do that. Ray tracing will never allow for that, (on these machines) elden ring is a different case because I really feel like Quality mode should stay higher than what it is. Whether it should be 60 or not is a debate I don’t know enough about, but it definitely should be higher than 48.

 

[BreakOut]

It's because Sony didn't bother implementing LFC which is something every gaming VRR hardware company has done. First VRR came from Nvidia with LFC day 1, then AMD a year later, then Microsoft Xbox 3 years later and finally Sony 5 years later. Not only are Sony massively late but they also didn't do the bare minimum that was expected out of gaming VRR. Nowadays on PC with Nvidia you can have 1hz-360hz range. Back in 2013 Nvidia had LFC day one.

It's a shame that Sony in 2022 didn't match what Nvidia could do in 2013 when they introduced VRR to the world.

What is LFC?

 

[yamaci17]

What is LFC?

"Low framerate compensation (LFC), allows FreeSync technology to work when the framerate falls below the minimum refresh rate of the display. When the framerate drops below the minimum refresh rate of the display, frames are duplicated and displayed multiple times so that they can sync to a refresh rate that is within the displays refresh rate range. For example, a display with a 60 – 144Hz refresh rate, would be able to sync the frames of a game running at 40 FPS, by doubling them so that the display could sync and run at 80 Hz. A display with LFC effectively results in the removal of the minimum refresh rate boundary. All displays in the FreeSync Premium and FreeSync Premium Pro tier are certified to meet mandatory LFC requirements."

https://www.amd.com/en/technologies...ate Compensation?,refresh rate of the display.

 

[BreakOut]

40FPS is a good thing.

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2021-why-ratchet-and-clank-rift-aparts-40fps-fidelity-mode-is-a-potential-game-changer#:~:text=40fps translated into frame-time,the 60fps performance RT mode.

(It's weird, some people are demanding "60 or Bust!", which, okay, that's your hardline stance, but we're talking about VRR in this thread, which means the game isn't 60, so woulda-shoulda-coulda, but this is the reality of the situation, and it's not a bad reality if more developers adopted it.)

Yeah it seems like if a game has a 30 mode there’s no reason not to include a 40 mode. I don’t really see this as a bad thing, options are always good. 60 of course would be better but doesn’t really matter what would be or should be. It just comes down to the hardware, game optimization obviously plays a role to. So it seems like wishing for 60 doesn’t make as much sense as planning on 40. We can’t really control developers.

 

[BreakOut]

"Low framerate compensation (LFC), allows FreeSync technology to work when the framerate falls below the minimum refresh rate of the display. When the framerate drops below the minimum refresh rate of the display, frames are duplicated and displayed multiple times so that they can sync to a refresh rate that is within the displays refresh rate range. For example, a display with a 60 – 144Hz refresh rate, would be able to sync the frames of a game running at 40 FPS, by doubling them so that the display could sync and run at 80 Hz. A display with LFC effectively results in the removal of the minimum refresh rate boundary. All displays in the FreeSync Premium and FreeSync Premium Pro tier are certified to meet mandatory LFC requirements."

https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/free-sync-faq#:~:text=Back to top-,What is Low Framerate Compensation?,refresh rate of the display.

Oh yeah that would actually be really nice. Hopefully something like that gets added.