Support NeoGAF

[geordiemp]

the only quote we have off Tim is that it would be downscaled on HDD, he said that currant (by this I think he means top end) Pc can run this demo awesome. people have just interpreted that to mean not as good as PS5. we will see I guess.

All customers of EpIc can run UE5 awesome I agree with you.

The demo scaling down to 1080p and less traingles at 2 per pixel, only needing MBs streaming fits perfectly everything that has been said.

 

[phil_t98]

All customers of EpIc can run EU5 awesome, news at 11

lol you really didn't read what I posted. we dont know if High end PC will run it better or worse same with XBSX

 

[geordiemp]

lol you really didn't read what I posted. we dont know if High end PC will run it better or worse same with XBSX

Give me a chance, just got out of bed.

 

[phil_t98]

Give me a chance, just got out of bed.

let you off then hahahah

 

[Rentahamster]

"We don't know how the hardware is like", he says. Well, the hardware designer gave a lengthy explanation on their custom integration.

Having the finished product in your hands and testing it personally is a lot different from just hearing a lengthy explanation about how it's supposed to work.

If Linus is too arrogant to watch it or admit he didn't understand it, that's his problem.

How do you know he didn't watch it? How do you know he didn't understand it? Isn't it possible that he understood it, and still has that opinion?

 

[longdi]

They did tackle this problem, but stopped at a point they thought was good enough for them and invested the engineering time and silicon budget in a wider GPU and faster memory (with some compromises) this getting farther ahead (than Sony).

Sony decided that their console was good enough with the GPU tech they worked with AMD on, that it was fast enough for them, and spend their additional engineering time and silicon budget on moving the software and hardware I/O stack further (than MS). They made a very very very big bet, with its own tradeoffs and risks, in the SSD (and audio to a lesser extent) so not surprised they have a large lead there.

This will make first party games on both consoles very very different as they try to make the HW sing while, I agree with you on this, the baseline between both consoles will be pretty similar

Yes it is a very very very big bet, because 5.5gbs vs 2.5gbs may sound big on numbers, but the games performance may not pay off as well as having a better cpu/gpu/memory setup.

We went from 100mbs to 2.5gbs, a MASSIVe leap, that going from 2.5gbs to 5.5gbs just seems tiny.

That is concern and disbelief at Sony choices. I mean if PS5 comes $50 under Series X, then we may acccept the bet choices, but at the same prices, it is a tougher sell.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Yes it is a very very very big bet, because 5.5gbs vs 2.5gbs may sound big on numbers, but the games performance may not pay off as well as having a better cpu/gpu/memory setup.

We went from 100mbs to 2.5gbs, a MASSIVe leap, that going from 2.5gbs to 5.5gbs just seems tiny.

That is concern and disbelief at Sony choices. I mean if PS5 comes $50 under Series X, then we may acccept the bet choices, but at the same prices, it is a tougher sell.

Yea 127% better data streaming speed is not needed but 17% more gpu power is god send.

Do you listen to ur self?

 

[longdi]

Yea 127% better data streaming speed is not needed but 17% more gpu power is god send.

Do you listen to ur self?

I would think Series X sustained performance, its components may run at about 25% advantage.
Yes the ssd disadvantage seems big, but on paper.
Like i say, next gen, we get a 25x uplift from storage io. The is A LOT already.
Even UE5 as leaked by the Chinese Epic team, dont need 5.5gbs to run, but a better cpu/gpu/memory helps.

 

[Radical_3d]

I would think Series X sustained performance, its components may run at about 25% advantage.
Yes the ssd disadvantage seems big, but on paper.
Like i say, next gen, we get a 25x uplift from storage io. The is A LOT already.
Even UE5 as leaked by the Chinese Epic team, dont need 5.5gbs to run, but a better cpu/gpu/memory helps.

You just made that 25% figure. And you can run UE5 in my iPhone. The question is at which cost. To be honest I don’t think most of us will notice differences in next gen graphics. Even the one who says they do (after a 800% zoom comparison in DF).

 

[skneogaf]

So samsung have just announced they're releasing ssd's that read at 6.5GB/s so I wonder if the ps5 will have mid range ssd speeds by the the time of release.

I wonder if the faster ssd's will be able to be fitted in the ps5 and if seagate release the faster ssd's for the xbox series ☓ in their memory cards things.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Folks still talking about 18% as marketing advantage? Have they been paying attention? Your grasp on reality is slipping.

And just for laughs

 

[Paracelsus]

This whole deal explained by Dragon Ball:

What the SSD allegedly does for games

What some people think the SSD will be able to do

What PS5 with the SSD truly is

People are talking like GPU power is not the most important thing when it comes to graphics, and everything else follows.
Like, the claim is that you send data super quick to the GPU and it magically stops being a nerfed 5700XT, it becomes a 2080S, so it doesn't matter how much data can your GPU crunch, the SSD will take care of it.

Sony could start opening churches in the USA.

 

[geordiemp]

Yea 127% better data streaming speed is not needed but 17% more gpu power is god send.

Do you listen to ur self?

Even better, ND art director finds streaming artifacts and 9-10 Gbs is maybe not enough....

Its going to be a long generation for some

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yes it is a very very very big bet, because 5.5gbs vs 2.5gbs may sound big on numbers, but the games performance may not pay off as well as having a better cpu/gpu/memory setup.

We went from 100mbs to 2.5gbs, a MASSIVe leap, that going from 2.5gbs to 5.5gbs just seems tiny.

That is concern and disbelief at Sony choices. I mean if PS5 comes $50 under Series X, then we may acccept the bet choices, but at the same prices, it is a tougher sell.

It is higher bandwidth, lower latency, ease of development, and lower CPU usage they attacked as part of their bet on storage I/O and admittedly they landed very very close still on the CPU and GPU side of things (with 18% or so in practical terms). It seems like they strategy with much higher clocks and improved geometry engine (likely custom extensions there too as they specifically called it out in the Cerny GDC exposé) and async compute doesn’t pay off for engines choosing this kind of rendering path forward.

 

[Agnostic2020]

I would think Series X sustained performance, its components may run at about 25% advantage.
Yes the ssd disadvantage seems big, but on paper.
Like i say, next gen, we get a 25x uplift from storage io. The is A LOT already.
Even UE5 as leaked by the Chinese Epic team, dont need 5.5gbs to run, but a better cpu/gpu/memory helps.

Haha . Keep telling urself that bud. 8k textures will be only on ps5 due to the io through put . Let that sink in bud . And difference in frame resolution will be around 18% in favour of xsx

 

[Panajev2001a]

Folks still talking about 18% as marketing advantage? Have they been paying attention? Your grasp on reality is slipping.

And just for laughs

Meanwhile, somewhere online hard work is underway to prepare the next narrative for the upcoming news cycle:

.

 

[Endless Fluff]

Let me tell you why, this card is garbage :

Your argument boils down to "it's shit because it's expensive", this makes your whole point garbage. It's an enthusiast piece of hardware, it's not meant to be cheap, however Linus has got it wrong with the pricing, because the Aorus Adapter only costs 150 bucks. You do not have to populate each slot with a 2TB high-end NVMe SSD which is what makes it expensive.

Sweeney said that the PS5 SSD is better than anything money can buy. Linus is showing you that you can buy something that shits all over the speed of the PS5 SSD, sure... that doesn't mean it's performing better in a game, because it's lacking typical console optimization. However, over 20GB/s should be enough to brute force anything.

Then you also have enterprise PCIe SSDs. Micron's new X100 hits 9 GB/s and is also the first SSD using 3D Xpoint instead of NAND. Samsung has the... PM1735 (iirc) which hit's 8 GB/s read speeds.

Sweeney should've said that the PS5 SSD is far ahead of your typical gaming PC

 

[Agnostic2020]

Meanwhile, somewhere online hard work is going on for the next narrative to be ready for the next news cycle:

.

A certain discord . They have been having a horrible week haha

 

[Agnostic2020]

Your argument boils down to "it's shit because it's expensive", this makes your whole point garbage. It's an enthusiast piece of hardware, it's not meant to be cheap, however Linus has got it wrong with the pricing, because the Aorus Adapter only costs 150 bucks. You do not have to populate each slot with a 2TB high-end NVMe SSD which is what makes it expensive.

Sweeney said that the PS5 SSD is better than anything money can buy. Linus is showing you that you can buy something that shits all over the speed of the PS5 SSD, sure... that doesn't mean it's performing better in a game, because it's lacking typical console optimization. However, over 20GB/s should be enough to brute force anything.

Then you also have enterprise PCIe SSDs. Micron's new X100 hits 9 GB/s and is also the first SSD using 3D Xpoint instead of NAND. Samsung has the... PM1735 (iirc) which hit's 8 GB/s read speeds.

Sweeney should've said that the PS5 SSD is far ahead of your typical gaming PC

No what he said was correct. Aorus is pcie3 for god sake. Lol 8 channel pcie 3 . No thanks keep that 1500$ ssd for pcs. No need for that when u have a next gen 12 channel pcie4 on ps5

 

[Radical_3d]

Haha . Keep telling urself that bud. 8k textures will be only on ps5 due to the io through put . Let that sink in bud . And difference in frame resolution will be around 18% in favour of xsx

I really doubt this. The amount of data needed for the nanite tech far exceeds what even fits in the RAM, so my guessing is that the engine takes that high detailed data and stores it efficiently in the compiled game. If the compression is so good that we don't see the difference between the compressed data and the real asset my guess is that a less data heavy model (required if you want to mantain travel speed in the SX) won't be noticeable to the eye.

 

[geordiemp]

Haha . Keep telling urself that bud. 8k textures will be only on ps5 due to the io through put . Let that sink in bud . And difference in frame resolution will be around 18% in favour of xsx

Not even 18%, probably similar rates but Ps5 more detail, ps5 will be more powerful for such rendering IMO.

Remember Cerny presentation about narrow and fast and latency for small triangles.

Cerny is so far ahead of the curve here, its like he developed Ps5 with next gen engines like UE5 and new decima in mind. Who would of thought ?

 

[Agnostic2020]

I really doubt this. The amount of data needed for the nanite tech far exceeds what even fits in the RAM, so my guessing is that the engine takes that high detailed data and stores it efficiently in the compiled game. If the compression is so good that we don't see the difference between the compressed data and the real asset my guess is that a less data heavy model (required if you want to mantain travel speed in the SX) won't be noticeable to the eye.

As mentioned in the article due to extremely high through put and low latency of io complex many assets were not taken into the ram and were streamed directly allowing 8k to become possible other wise if taken in the ram it would interfere with ram out put feed to gpu and cpu due to 16 gb ram size limitation

 

[geordiemp]

I really doubt this. The amount of data needed for the nanite tech far exceeds what even fits in the RAM, so my guessing is that the engine takes that high detailed data and stores it efficiently in the compiled game. If the compression is so good that we don't see the difference between the compressed data and the real asset my guess is that a less data heavy model (required if you want to mantain travel speed in the SX) won't be noticeable to the eye.

Nope, Ps5 SSD is not gast enough even for the UE5 demo, spotted by Naughty Dog (who else) - streaming artifacts spotted already. Its going to be a long generation for the terraflop crowd.

 

[longdi]

It is higher bandwidth, lower latency, ease of development, and lower CPU usage they attacked as part of their bet on storage I/O and admittedly they landed very very close still on the CPU and GPU side of things (with 18% or so in practical terms). It seems like they strategy with much higher clocks and improved geometry engine (likely custom extensions there too as they specifically called it out in the Cerny GDC exposé) and async compute doesn’t pay off for engines choosing this kind of rendering path forward.

MS keeps making a case for sustained performance. I think they know somethings we dont.

 

[Thirty7ven]

MS keeps making a case for sustained performance. I think they know somethings we dont.

Yeah they know their fanbase, down to a T.

 

[geordiemp]

MS keeps making a case for sustained performance. I think they know somethings we dont.

MS come up with allot of slogans, sustained performance, VRS, Velocity architecture, smart delivery on and on.

Yawn.

Maybe they should try showing something ! P

 

[Panajev2001a]

MS keeps making a case for sustained performance. I think they know somethings we dont.

Oh well, all the proof I need .

 

[Endless Fluff]

No what he said was correct. Aorus is pcie3 for god sake. Lol 8 channel pcie 3 . No thanks keep that 1500$ ssd for pcs. No need for that when u have a next gen 12 channel pcie4 on ps5

The fuck are you talking about? The Aorus is connected to a PCIe 16x slot, it wouldn't work on 8 lanes, it needs 16. You are also confusing lanes with the controller. The PS5 SSD uses a 12 channel controller, not 12 lanes. It uses 4 lanes, just like any other M.2 SSD.

 

[Thirty7ven]

I hear if money isn’t in question you can just go ahead and build a datacenter in your backyard. You can build a 30 TFLOP monster for games too, hell probably more.

One of the things I love about PC gaming, is that PC scales with the arguments you want to make.

 

[Radical_3d]

As mentioned in the article due to extremely high through put and low latency of io complex many assets were not taken into the ram and were streamed directly allowing 8k to become possible other wise if taken in the ram it would interfere with ram out put feed to gpu and cpu due to 16 gb ram size limitation

Better reason then, if it is compressed enough to go through a 9GB/s buffer it is a very tinny asset.

Nope, Ps5 SSD is not gast enough even for the UE5 demo, spotted by Naughty Dog (who else) - streaming artifacts spotted already. Its going to be a long generation for the terraflop crowd.

All what I'm saying is that if you can compress a cinematic asset to make it functional to a console hardware a little more compression to fit in the slower SX SSD won't be noticeable. Speaking of noticeable, the tweet that you posted. Nobody saw that or the flaws in GI the DF video show. It's going to be a nitpicking generation.

 

[geordiemp]

Better reason then, if it is compressed enough to go through a 9GB/s buffer it is a very tinny asset.

All what I'm saying is that if you can compress a cinematic asset to make it functional to a console hardware a little more compression to fit in the slower SX SSD won't be noticeable. Speaking of noticeable, the tweet that you posted. Nobody saw that or the flaws in GI the DF video show. It's going to be a nitpicking generation.

Probably real games will use lower assets anyway and pump for 60 FPS, double frame rate, half the time, you still need a super fast SSD and IO.

Epic already said they can run the demo at 60 FPS at lower detail...but does that mean 1080p or lower assets ? we dont know.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Better reason then, if it is compressed enough to go through a 9GB/s buffer it is a very tinny asset.

All what I'm saying is that if you can compress a cinematic asset to make it functional to a console hardware a little more compression to fit in the slower SX SSD won't be noticeable. Speaking of noticeable, the tweet that you posted. Nobody saw that or the flaws in GI the DF video show. It's going to be a nitpicking generation.

Speed is one part but latency is another. Ps5 io complex is inside the apu . Physically next to gpu and cpu . Io comolex for xsx is outside apu which could lead to latency issues for direct stream of assets and skipping ram .

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Sweeney said that the PS5 SSD is better than anything money can buy. Linus is showing you that you can buy something that shits all over the speed of the PS5 SSD, sure...

did Sweeney really say anything or any ssd? I think he said any ssd. And even this thing was 15GB/s, iirc, while in theory ps5 can do 22GB/s, not to mention custom io acceleration on ps5.

 

[Radical_3d]

Speed is one part but latency is another. Ps5 io complex is inside the apu . Physically next to gpu and cpu . Io comolex for xsx is outside apu which could lead to latency issues for direct stream of assets and skipping ram .

That is correct. But having a better IO solution helps feeding the RAM but doesn't magically compress several billion on triangles into something that fits in a console bus.

Probably real games will use lower assets anyway and pump for 60 FPS, double frame rate, half the time, you still need a super fast SSD and IO.

Epic already said they can run the demo at 60 FPS at lower detail...but does that mean 1080p or lower assets ? we dont know.

Yeah, outside first party I think many won't go for that cuality due to budget constrictions.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Folks still talking about 18% as marketing advantage? Have they been paying attention? Your grasp on reality is slipping.

And just for laughs

A video?

WTF are people making a big deal about the Chinese guy then?

 

[ToadMan]

well do you think PC or XBSX will run it less than PS5?

PC will depend on spec of the machine.

For Xsex vs PS5, for multiplat games there won’t be a difference but there will be constraints on how the engine is used to ensure multiplat deployment.

I was referring to the use of the term “awesome” - Epic are bound to say their engine is awesome everywhere and they’ll say it runs awesome on switch, PS4, xbone and mobile too. But it will clearly be different to PC, PS5 and xsx.

 

[sinnergy]

Haha . Keep telling urself that bud. 8k textures will be only on ps5 due to the io through put . Let that sink in bud . And difference in frame resolution will be around 18% in favour of xsx

How would you know how engines work? Or a hardware architecture? Who says that Series X would or would not provide this experience with their paging system and pre caching asset systems ? The UE 5 demo is pretty predictable, you can cache stuff in advance because your path is linear, open world with these graphics will be even more impressive.

while this demo impressed the hell out of me , it’s still corridors, doors etc , perfect for asset caching.

the whole software renderers part impressed me more.

 

[Endless Fluff]

did Sweeneyreally say anything or any ssd? I think he said any ssd. And even this thing was 15GB/s, iirc, while in theory ps5 can do 22GB/s, not to mention custom io acceleration on ps5.

He said

“The storage architecture on the PS5 is far ahead of anything you can buy on anything on PC for any amount of money right now. It’s going to help drive future PCs. [The PC market is] going to see this thing ship and say, ‘Oh wow, SSDs are going to need to catch up with this.”

"anything you can buy for any amount of money". So it's clearly better than building a PC with 256GB of RAM and simply using a RAMdisk for games (which some people do) for example. Which storage architecture beats a RAM disk?

I know that he is most likely talking about the 12 channels the controller has, but then you have Enterprise SSDs with 32 channels. .......

The PS5 SSD is clearly better than whatever your average and even high-end gamer uses, but it's not better than anything money can buy.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

"anything you can buy for any amount of money". So it's clearly better than building a PC with 256GB of RAM and simply using a RAMdisk for games (which some people do) for example. Which storage architecture beats a RAM disk?

He might also be talking about the custom i/o. Even from ramdisk games load no faster than sata ssd.

 

[longdi]

He said


"anything you can buy for any amount of money". So it's clearly better than building a PC with 256GB of RAM and simply using a RAMdisk for games (which some people do) for example. Which storage architecture beats a RAM disk?

I know that he is most likely talking about the 12 channels the controller has, but then you have Enterprise SSDs with 32 channels. .......

The PS5 SSD is clearly better than whatever your average and even high-end gamer uses, but it's not better than anything money can buy.

It is just sales pitch.
Epic said this about PS4

"I think it's a very smart move on Sony's behalf to build this sort of enhanced PC architecture and then put so much in it," Epic's vice president, Mark Rein, told CVG, commenting on the upcoming next-gen PS4's more uniform x86 system architecture.

The PS3, by contrasy, used the infamous Cell processor and was notoriously difficult to develop games on.

The Gears of War developer also commented on the system's 8GB of memory and some of its bonus features such as instant booting.

"It's like giving you the world's best PC," he said. "The kind of stuff that they announced that they're doing, the level of convenience and things like that... they're making a really perfect gaming PC."

 

[noise36]

you are accusing Sony of just playing marketing games.

Yes I am, same every generation.

 

[Shmunter]

It is just sales pitch.
Epic said this about PS4

It would be a shame if Sony designed state of the art I/o ahead of the entire industry for 0 benefit. All that dev focused design and collaboration all gone wrong.

Even a bigger shame they blew their first next gen impressions by partnering with Epic to show a demo that took no advantage of their huge technological investment because it can run 1 to 1 on a laptop even better than a PS5.

Likelihood of the above? Close to 0 I’d say. Let them dream

 

[Thirty7ven]

It is just sales pitch.
Epic said this about PS4

Mark Rein is an entrepreneur.

A sales guys.

Like

 

[ToadMan]

Even a bigger shame they blew their first next gen impressions by partnering with Epic to show a demo that took no advantage of their huge technological investment

This wasn’t Sony’s reveal, it was Epic’s alone - there was no comarketing and Sony haven’t done anything off the back of it. Sony’s first party use their own engine anyway.

Sony’s reveal is rumoured to be beginning of June.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yes I am, same every generation.

At least you are honest, wrong IMHO, very wrong... but honest .

 

[Shmunter]

This wasn’t Sony’s reveal, it was Epic’s alone - there was no comarketing and Sony haven’t done anything off the back of it. Sony’s first party use their own engine anyway.

Sony’s reveal is rumoured to be beginning of June.

This wasn’t a skunkworks project. Sony would have greenlit what Epic demoed. Epic partnered with Sony on tech development. Not a Sony presentation, but a presentation with Sony blessing.

 

[FranXico]

Sony could start opening churches in the USA.

They also have a lot of catching up to Microsoft to do in that regard.

 

[longdi]

Sorry if many of us dont believe the ssd io sales pitch.
Yes going from 100mbs to 2.5gbs is great. But another move to 5.5gbs seems questionable how much better it will make for next gen games.
It is seeing to believe.
While things like cpu/gpu/ram are tried and tested.

 

[MasterCornholio]

This wasn’t a skunkworks project. Sony would have greenlit what Epic demoed. Epic partnered with Sony on tech development. Not a Sony presentation, but a presentation with Sony blessing.

At this point it seems like some people are just mad that they didn't demo this on the Series X due to the high praise the demo got.

But I wouldn't worry if I was them because the games will show off the Series Xs capabilities.

 

[LostDonkey]

Whats wrong with MS just releasing a faster drive to buy or is dependent on another part and not just the drive alone.