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PSA: Don't use 444 chroma or RGB Full with LG OLEDs (and other TVs as well)

Inviusx

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You know the end result of this is just leaving things as Automatic right? Believe it or not these smart devices are pretty smart.

Its the absolute piss poor explanations of manufacturers that lead to this confusion. As a poster mentioned earlier, why would a consumer choose Limited when Full exists? Without any explanation from the manufacturer regarding these settings the average Joe is just going to select Full because it sounds better.
 
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dorkimoe

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To add some more examples:

This is how PC mode on a LG C9 looks like with Video Transfer Rate set to -1 and HDR turned on (= PS5 uses 4:2:2 Chroma Subsampling and therefore falls back to TMDS):


Notice that ugly color banding? Yes. That is what you are getting when you are using HDR with the PC Label
with a device that does not support FRL (e.g. every HDMI 2.0b device like the PS4 PRO or RTX 2080 Ti).

This is how it looks like when you are using 4K Tranfer Rate "Auto". Which means that the PS5 now outputs at 444, thus requiring to use FRL.


Much better, right? Yes. That is how this image should look like. The only thing we changed is the method
the PS5 uses to output the image (FRL instead of TMDS). Before you ask: Yes, below the Astro's Playroom Icon there is still a tiny imperfection. But I guess this is baked into the image. Probably artifacts that were introduced after the compression of the image.

Now let us see how both images compare to the console label:



Much better than the first image. But basically no difference between the image where FRL is used. In real life I cannot see any difference at all. You might see some slight differences on these images. But they are most likely caused by my camera. Which means that the last two images basically look the same.

So what does that tell us?
The first thing to note for LG OLED owners: This issue is present if:
- HDR is turned on (in SDR you should not have any issues whatsoever)
- PC Label is selected
- You are using a source device with HDMI 2.0(a|b) (e.g. PS4 PRO/RTX 2080).
- You are using a source device with HDMI 2.1, but it does not use FRL for some settings and therefore falls back to TMDS.

tl;dr If you are using a device like PS4 PRO/RTX 2080 do not use the PC Label for HDR.
On PC you might want to use it in SDR. But avoid it for HDR content.

If you are using a PS5, RTX 2080 Ti or something similar that will output stuff using FRL
you are fine and can use the PC Label even in HDR.
Thanks for the tldr

I have a c9 and I feel it looks great. But I have everything on automatic. Any other settings you recommend on the tv?
 

Venuspower

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I have a c9 and I feel it looks great. But I have everything on automatic. Any other settings you recommend on the tv?

EvilBoris has a pretty good summary on his Patreon (free to view):

The only things I would change from these settings:
- Disable HDR on PS5. This is because PS5 always forces HDR. Even when you are playing SDR content.
If you want to play an HDR game enable HDR again. But make sure to disable it if you are done. While
this is annoying, getting an SDR image in a HDR container is even more annoying. Hopefully Sony will address this issue in the near future. XBox might handle this better. Just make sure not to use Auto HDR on Series X :D

- Only use HGiG on your LG C9 if the game supports HGiG. As of to date most games do not support HGiG.
Which means that they won't tone map correctly to your display. But with HGiG enabled your TV will turn off every type of tone mapping. Instead it will hard clip the image at around 700 Nits (aka you will lose bright highlight details). If a game supports HGiG use it. But for every other game turn Dynamic Tone Mapping off or use Dynamic Tone Mapping. Whatever you like. With Dynamic Tone Mapping off the TV will still do static tone mapping.

To explain why EvilBoris recommends to force RGB Range Limited on console and TV:
Most TVs (including LG OLEDs) are internally calibrated for limited range signals.
They can not handle rull range signals that well, even though most TVs offer a Full RGB setting.

Plus: At least on Sony consoles the Auto setting tends to use the wrong RGB range. Which is not a good idea because you always want to match this setting on your source device and your TV.
 
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saintjules

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They are different things.
You can have game mode withing the PC input setting.

And for the OP, I can only see banding in the PS4 OS blue background. In game I dont notice any banding.
I wonder how games and console OS are designed in relation to chroma.

Yeah, exactly. And the vertical banding shown in the OPs post is being shown on a uniformity test. in-game you don't see this.

My LG C9 has been fantastic so far. I'll take a closer look to what people are pointing out. What Boris showed with Spider-Man I don't see on my TV.

Also, PC mode has been super fine when playing off my 2060 Super. The last games I played seriously on it were Genshin Impact and Doom Eternal. Will take another look to see what these issues are.
 

saintjules

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EvilBoris has a pretty good summary on his Patreon (free to view):

The only things I would change from these settings:
- Disable HDR on PS5. This is because PS5 always forces HDR. Even when you are playing SDR content.
If you want to play an HDR game enable HDR again. But make sure to disable it if you are done. While
this is annoying, getting an SDR image in a HDR container is even more annoying. Hopefully Sony will address this issue in the near future. XBox might handle this better. Just make sure not to use Auto HDR on Series X :D

- Only use HGiG on your LG C9 if the game supports HGiG. As of to date most games do not support HGiG.
Which means that they won't tone map correctly to your display. But with HGiG enabled your TV will turn off every type of tone mapping. Instead it will hard clip the image at around 700 Nits (aka you will lose bright highlight details). If a game supports HGiG use it. But for every other game turn Dynamic Tone Mapping off or use Dynamic Tone Mapping. Whatever you like. With Dynamic Tone Mapping off the TV will still do static tone mapping.

To explain why EvilBoris recommends to force RGB Range Limited on console and TV:
Most TVs (including LG OLEDs) are internally calibrated for limited range signals.
They can not handle rull range signals that well, even though most TVs offer a Full RGB setting.

Plus: At least on Sony consoles the Auto setting tends to use the wrong RGB range. Which is not a good idea because you always want to match this setting on your source device and your TV.

Not doubting Boris' expertise as I enjoy his and Vincent's content, but I have a few issues with his recommendations.

First he doesn't mention which TV he's actually using to make those changes. The C9 and CX are slightly different here in terms of settings.

Now, I'm on the C9. When changing the TV input to PC mode, the home screen now introduces flickering. Could it be my unit? Maybe. But it's been working fine with the exception of two PSN games crashing on me, (ran fine after reinstalling).

Setting RGB Range to limited brightens/fades the screen a bit. The issue he was addressing on the bottom right hand corner of his screen is barely noticeable based on my calibrated settings. So it can be a number of factors, especially when you compare to how he calibrated his own unit(s). I feel like this is going to vary with each user. I'm going to experiment with it on limited to see if my eyes can adjust to it.

Lastly, never had an issue with overlay, so it was interesting he mentions Live Plus needing to be disabled. Prior to touching these settings, visually everything was perfectly fine for me.

Edit: just to add, it's quite possible the camera shot of the Spider-Man home screen definitely lifts the imperfection. Looking at it now it's completely smooth and rich. On my S20 Ultra shot below, it shows it more. Not sure how much that matters though ultimately.




 
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JLB

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That banding that OP described definitely happened witn my Xbox One X using an LG OLED B7. Now that you mention it, I havent noticed it witht the Series X... maybe the cable fixes it?
 

AceVader0

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- Only use HGiG on your LG C9 if the game supports HGiG. As of to date most games do not support HGiG.
Which means that they won't tone map correctly to your display. But with HGiG enabled your TV will turn off every type of tone mapping. Instead it will hard clip the image at around 700 Nits (aka you will lose bright highlight details). If a game supports HGiG use it. But for every other game turn Dynamic Tone Mapping off or use Dynamic Tone Mapping. Whatever you like. With Dynamic Tone Mapping off the TV will still do static tone mapping.

How do I know if a game has HGIG? Kingdom Hearts running on AutoHDR looks exactly the same with/without HGIG, however Sekiro looks darker/dimmer with HGIG.

Thanks!
 

Venuspower

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How do I know if a game has HGIG?

This is the problem.
Unless you are specifically looking for it, you do not know.
There is no logo on the box of the game.
If you are lucky some folks on the WWW already tested a game for
HGiG support.

Kingdom Hearts running on AutoHDR looks exactly the same with/without HGIG, however Sekiro looks darker/dimmer with HGIG.

Seikiro does not support HGiG.
In terms of Auto HDR: I would avoid it anyways. Those SDR => HDR conversions s*ck.
Also keep in mind that you might not see a difference right away.
This depends on the content you are feeding to the TV.

First he doesn't mention which TV he's actually using to make those changes. The C9 and CX are slightly different here in terms of settings.
He is using a C9. LG C9 and CX are pretty similar. Most settings are located at the exact same
location. Settings are called the same etc..


Now, I'm on the C9. When changing the TV input to PC mode, the home screen now introduces flickering. Could it be my unit? Maybe.

Disable LivePlus and OCF (this setting can be found in the home dashboard when you press the gear wheel). This should fix the issue.


Setting RGB Range to limited brightens/fades the screen a bit.

It does not unless your settings of TV and source are not matched.
If your settings are not matched you either get black crush or a washed out image.

For example:
Source High + TV Low => Black Crush
Source Low + TV High => Washed out image
 
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AceVader0

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This is the problem.
Unless you are specifically looking for it, you do not know.
There is no logo on the box of the game.
If you are lucky some folks on the WWW already tested a game for
HGiG support.

But will it be used for all games eventually? I mean, it would kinda suck disabling/enabling the option for "every game". What's your opinion?

Disable LivePlus and OCF (this setting can be found in the home dashboard when you press the gear wheel). This should fix the issue.

I had flicker on the main menu as well, only for a second when I boot up the console. And I think this made it go away. Thank you!
 

Venuspower

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But will it be used for all games eventually? I mean, it would kinda suck disabling/enabling the option for "every game". What's your opinion?

Maybe. I was hoping that HGiG will be a mandatory feature on Next Gen consoles.
But it is not, since some next games still do not support HGiG.

Sony added support for HGiG back in summer 2019. This is a pretty long time since
HGiG has been available. LG introduced it around the same time on their 2019 lineup.
Other manufacturers followed this year, as did Microsoft on the XBox.

Still blockbuster titles from Sony like TLOU Part II or Ghost of Tsushima do not support HGiG.
I do not want to give up hope yet. But yea... give it a few more years. Maybe more devs will start to adopt
it later on in this generation. Until this happens you have to manually disable/enable HGiG unless
you are ok with hard clipping and therefore loss of bright highlight details.
 
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Tygeezy

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Games that allow you to set the peak brightness in game will also benefit from hgig being enabled on your tv. I use hgig on pc because most games allow you to set peak brightness so tonemapping isn't needed. Any game that allows you to match a rectangle within a rectangle in hdr calibration or asks for a number value in nits is setting peak brightness.
 
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sn0man

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The only things I would change from these settings:
- Disable HDR on PS5. This is because PS5 always forces HDR. Even when you are playing SDR content.
If you want to play an HDR game enable HDR again. But make sure to disable it if you are done. While
this is annoying, getting an SDR image in a HDR container is even more annoying. Hopefully Sony will address this issue in the near future.

I find this running SDR in an HDR signal from the PS5 really annoying. I personally wish the dashboard and default was SDR and it changed to HDR for a game that supported HDR. I agree that I’ll probably turn it on and off as needed but that isn’t spouse gaming friendly


Only use HGiG on your LG C9 if the game supports HGiG. As of to date most games do not support HGiG.
Which means that they won't tone map correctly to your display.

HGiG is a fascinating idea in that you’re shifting the responsible party for tone mapping to the source device and eliminating it from the output device. I think it’s a good idea except that LG (maybe others) have tuned their tone mapping to the inherent characteristics of their set.

I sort of think HGiG is already a failure though

To explain why EvilBoris recommends to force RGB Range Limited on console and TV:
Most TVs (including LG OLEDs) are internally calibrated for limited range signals.
They can not handle rull range signals that well, even though most TVs offer a Full RGB setting.

Plus: At least on Sony consoles the Auto setting tends to use the wrong RGB range. Which is not a good idea because you always want to match this setting on your source device and your TV.

I agree with this sentiment that limited is better than auto because elsewise you’re relying on communication from devices to get it right. Manually setting everything to limited that isn’t a PC is probably what I’ll continue to do. Despite the technical advantages of full
Exactly. that's why PS4Pro plays HDR at 420

Yeah. It’s also annoying because I think the 4Pro calls that mode “RGB” even though that term is sometimes used elsewhere for 4:4:4, which leads to term confusion.
Maybe. I was hoping that HGiG will be a mandatory feature on Next Gen consoles.
But it is not, since some next games still do not support HGiG.

I feel that Sony should have mandated that games are mastered to an HGiG format for PS5. I’ve not heard that they have and so I assume that they haven’t.

Also.... isn’t it kind of screwy in that your TV can’t detect if it is HGiG or just HDR? So even if all PS5 games were HGiG (which I don’t know if Sony requires or not) then you’d have the same crap where you’re stuck toggling HGiG on for PS5 games and off for BC PS4 games?

I really wish the PS5 would run in SDR by default. It’s a wishlist for a patch to the system.
 
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Raphael

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God damn, so is there a consensus on definiteve settings to use for b9/c9/x oleds with xsx? I have been using HDTVtest settings with the PC label.
 
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carsar

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I use ks7500 with pc mode(rgb 444) enabled. Looks much better than other modes with 422. Pc mode delivers crisper clear image quality, better sharpness.
 

Whitecrow

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God damn, so is there a consensus on definiteve settings to use for b9/c9/x oleds with xsx? I have been using HDTVtest settings with the PC label.
XSX uses different signaling modes at 60Hz and 120Hz (HDMI 2.0 vs 2.1 respectively)
At 60Hz, I think you are in the same ballpark as last gen consoles (which I think is a shitty decision from MS): Banding on PC mode and better calibration on limited RGB.
But the best you can do is test for yourself and see what you like most.

IMHO, 60Hz on PC mode and Full RGB, despite some banding here and there, is more pleasant to the eyes 90% of the time.

I use ks7500 with pc mode(rgb 444) enabled. Looks much better than other modes with 422. Pc mode delivers crisper clear image quality, better sharpness.
That's what I think I see too. But I wonder if it's some kind of placebo effect or something.