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Push back against Anti-Vaxxers

Blood Borne

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Oct 30, 2017
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Endangering your health to own the libs.



Some people can't get vaccinated, due to immunodeficiencies and allergies, and rely on herd immunity. Those who are vaccinated are protected, but herd immunity fails if a significant portion of the populace is unvaccinated. Some vaccines (such as the flu), also don't have 100% efficacy, in which case the higher the vaccination rate the better the spread can be curbed. Do some research.
1. Got any stats on the number of people with immunodeficiencies? I’m trying to ascertain whether they’re a minority or majority.

2. So because someone has an allergy, I should be FORCED to inject something into my body and kid’s against my will? You genuinely don’t see how this is a concern for some people?
 
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Lamel

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1. Got any stats on the number of people with immunodeficiencies? I’m trying to ascertain whether they’re a minority or majority.

2. So because someone has an allergy, I should be FORCED to inject something into my body and kid’s against my will? You genuinely don’t see how this is a concern for some people?
1) Definitely a minority, but I don't know the numbers off the top of my head; for primary immunodeficiencies it's in the order of 1/10,000 live births.

2) You're endangering public health if you don't, and neglecting your child. There are basic laws against child neglect, and they should be applied here.
 
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Blood Borne

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1) Definitely a minority, but I don't know the numbers off the top of my head; for primary immunodeficiencies it's in the order of 1/10,000 live births.

2) You're endangering public health if you don't, and neglecting your child. There are basic laws against child neglect, and they should be applied here.

if they’re a minority, how am I endangering public health, seeing as the majority are vaccinated therefore they have nothing to worry about. Isn’t it?

also, saying that someone refusing to vaccinate their child is tantamount to child neglect and endangering public health is not only ridiculous, it’s a stretch of logic.

That logic can be applied to anything, “by putting a chip in the arm of citizens, it will be a major deterrence in committing crime because we will be able to locate them wherever they are, thereby improving public safety”.

Technically everything is endangering public health, even having unprotected sex is endangering public health, but that doesn’t mean government should force me to wear a condom.
 
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Lamel

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if they’re a minority, how am I endangering public health, seeing as the majority are vaccinated therefore they have nothing to worry about. Isn’t it?
No because if enough people think like you and a certain percentage of the population remains unvaccinated, then we lose the effect of herd immunity which protects those individuals.
 

Blood Borne

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No because if enough people think like you and a certain percentage of the population remains unvaccinated, then we lose the effect of herd immunity which protects those individuals.
Using the tiniest of minorities to bludgeon the majority. Absolute madness. Your logic makes no sense.

you’re simply a totalitarian.
 

prag16

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No because if enough people think like you and a certain percentage of the population remains unvaccinated, then we lose the effect of herd immunity which protects those individuals.
This "herd immunity" concept is so nebulous. The alleged threshold always rises and rises and rises. And all the evidence that vaccine induced herd immunity is even a thing is all circumstantial. It's never actually been absolutely proven (nevermind what exact percentage threshold is needed). It's such an inexact science, especially when you have primary vaccine failure (certain percentage of people just don't produce enough antibodies) and secondary vaccine failure (the antibodies wane over time, sometime become insufficient in a little as a few years... this is partly why series of shots can be two, three or four instead of just one).

The vaccine generation has already come of age (e.g. people who never had natural infections of the vast majority of what we vaccinate for). Unless everybody is dutifully getting their titers tested and getting boosters as needed, we probably don't have herd immunity anyway. But gee, no devastating outbreaks. in the 80s, the coverage rate was NOWHERE NEAR the now-"required" 95%. The percentages hovered in the 50s and 60s according to the CDC's own data depending on which shot. Gee, no devastating outbreaks then either. (When I say "devastating" I mean something that objectively constitutes an ACTUAL public health crisis; not the piddly amount of cases we have seen in recent years.)

The reality is that this is a manufactured crisis that is being used to justify eroding people's rights. It isn't smart strategy if their actual goal is improving health of the population. Antivaxxers grow in number in my opinion due to the Streisand Effect. The more they try to bury and obfuscate the legitimate concerns, the more attention they draw to them. If they had just left these people alone, or even better tried to actually honestly work to address the problems, maybe this wouldn't be happening.

So since what they're doing doesn't actually in effect promote improving the health of the population, many people recognize it for exactly what it is: A power grab, stripping away rights from Americans. (Under the guise of protecting public health.)
 
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daveonezero

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The powers that be sure are trying their damnedest. Doesn't hurt when you have useful idiots like many in this thread to help out free of charge.
Yes. And logic and reason will not work to change them. No matter how much contradicting evidence they will push back harder and start squealing.

It is an illogical belief and people like you and I need different techniques in order to talk to them.

It is so hard.
 

Singular7

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Jan 9, 2018
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Anti-vaxers are one of the few topics in life where I go full Schutzstaffel-esque authoritarian. You're going to get the shit injected into your kids, because I'm not going to live in a shithole society that has to concern itself with diseases from the Middle Ages.
Creepy. You are the author of the doom you pretend to hate.

Such is the pattern, carry on with your crusade of force injecting people with chemicals via state order.

"greater good" "herd immunity" "I like science" "trust Monsanto, they care, et al"

How about this counter-argument:

- newly generated organisms shouldn't be force injected with dead-forma de la inferma significa
- the state can never be trusted, especially with questions of socio-economic matters like force injections
- in 80 years, like ALL previous forms of health science, we learn new information which invalidates dogma. 100% of the time.
- the history of authoritarian systems with authority over individuals medical choices have killed significantly more than any disease.

Before you line up a firing squad to save people from themselves, consider the above!

Queue the ad hominem response! "you don't get the science" "you're too tall" "you don't have a biology degree" "your mother smells like a hamster"
 
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prag16

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Last night in New Jersey, a bill to repeal their religious exemption to vaccination successfully passed out of committe, and will be up for a full floor vote next week.

The Democratic Senate president intentionally scheduled the vote for a time when two known Republican "no" votes would not be present. Since that wasn't enough, at the 11th hour, the committee chair kicked three known Democratic "no" votes off the committee, and replaced them with three known "yes" votes.

Something similar was done earlier this year in New York; the vote to get their equivalent bill out of committee failed by one vote, at which point the committee chair strong armed another member into voting yes due to "the importance of this issue and having the public and full assembly weigh in" while still being allowed to vote no once it made it to the floor.

These people are corrupt as fuck. Merck is based in NJ. Hmmm. If you can't get broad bipartisan agreement on mandatory medical procedures forced upon the population, you'd think they'd stop and consider... hmmm.. maybe this isn't such a good idea. But these people are bought and paid for.

I don't understand how anybody can sit there and question every other aspect of big pharma and their fuckery, but in this one area, they are paragons of virtue. It's makes no sense.
 

prag16

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Last night in New Jersey, a bill to repeal their religious exemption to vaccination successfully passed out of committe, and will be up for a full floor vote next week.
Still been following this. It overwhelmingly passed the assembly along party lines early afternoon yesterday (one Democrat defected I believe). During this time a huge crowd of protesters amassing both inside and outside the building. By the time the Senate convened to vote on their version of the bill in the afternoon, the chants out in the street could be heard loud and clear from inside the Senate chamber. They put off the bill until last, and amazingly, they didn't have the votes. Even with a 2/3 Democrat supermajority, they couldn't get it across the finish line; at lest 6 Senate Dems defected. They called a 30 minute recess that ended up lasting two hours, during which they were trying to strongarm behind closed doors. It didn't work, at least for now. They came back out and announced the vote will be postponed. They may take it up again in the Senate before their session ends on January 13th. If that fails, they have to start from scratch on any measure with regard to this, in the 2020 session.

I'm legitimately shocked by this. New Jersey is the pharma capitol of the nation, and with their massive Dem majorities they still couldn't get it done (yet). We'll see what happens. When the 2020 sessions start up all over the country, expect similar bills to be proposed in at least a dozen other states, maybe more. But people aren't going quietly.

I'll say again, THIS ISN'T ABOUT ANTIVAXXERS. I am not an antivaxxer. EVERYONE should care about this. This is loss of personal liberty, medical freedom, parental rights, and religious freedom. If they can inject your kid with whatever they want, they can do the same to adults eventually. It could even lead to microchipping "for the greater good" as someone upthread pointed out.

This is bad for EVERYBODY.
 

Taxexemption

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Sure, I'm happy that we were able to use vaccines to bring Osama Bin Laden to justice, but to treat vaccine givers and the vaccine itself as something holy a priest would give you rather than potentially a tool that might be used any number of ways against your interest is shortsighted. This pro-vaccine stuff is part of the religion of science. Most of the people on this board don't have the education and expertise to know whether or not a particular vaccine is effective and the pros outweigh the cons, you are just listening to priests in labcoats that may or may not be doing science, or selling something for big pharma, or otherwise have an ulterior motive. What you have in these vaccines is a purity ritual in your religion, in a practical sense that's what it is.
 
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prag16

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This pro-vaccine stuff is part of the religion of science. Most of the people on this board don't have the education and expertise to know whether or not a particular vaccine is effective and the pros outweigh the cons, you are just listening to priests in labcoats that may or may not be doing science, or selling something for big pharma, or otherwise have an ulterior motive. What you have in these vaccines is a purity ritual in your religion, in a practical sense that's what it is.
This is a good way to put it. Behind the curtain, you have the incestuous pharma/government revolving door relationship (regulatory capture), along with the liability-free status of the manufacturers; think about it: A liabilty-free product that is made MANDATORY by the government (moral hazard) with no true informed consent. But as we all know that is all kept behind the curtain at the church of vaccines, and instead they just praise their idols while furiously gaslighting all 'non-believers'.
 

nemiroff

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Feb 19, 2018
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Creepy. You are the author of the doom you pretend to hate.

Such is the pattern, carry on with your crusade of force injecting people with chemicals via state order.

"greater good" "herd immunity" "I like science" "trust Monsanto, they care, et al"

How about this counter-argument:

- newly generated organisms shouldn't be force injected with dead-forma de la inferma significa
- the state can never be trusted, especially with questions of socio-economic matters like force injections
- in 80 years, like ALL previous forms of health science, we learn new information which invalidates dogma. 100% of the time.
- the history of authoritarian systems with authority over individuals medical choices have killed significantly more than any disease.

Before you line up a firing squad to save people from themselves, consider the above!

Queue the ad hominem response! "you don't get the science" "you're too tall" "you don't have a biology degree" "your mother smells like a hamster"
I think we should make a real effort to find an alternative planet for you and your kind so that the rest of us won't have to deal with this shit. I'm hoping for Elon to get the job done ASAP.
 
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daveonezero

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I think we should make a real effort to find an alternative planet for you and your kind so that the rest of us won't have to deal with this shit. I'm hoping for Elon to get the job done ASAP.
What kind is that?

great idea though. Since you can’t forcibly inoculate everyone just ship them to another planet.
That’s way less invasive.
 

daveonezero

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The kind that doesn't just accept something because "scientism".
Maybe but I don’t think he even knows.

I think it’s more than science. I think science is good.

It is just dangerous to accept and believe in any science that comes from an authority in a white lab coat.

People will do some fucked up things when their is a perceived authority in the room.

 
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prag16

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Maybe but I don’t think he even knows.

I think it’s more than science. I think science is good.

It is just dangerous to accept and believe in any science that comes from an authority in a white lab coat.

People will do some fucked up things when their is a perceived authority in the room.

Science IS good. No doubt. None of us here have claimed otherwise. But "follow the money" applies here. This isn't magically the one and only time that does NOT apply. It isn't magically the one and only time big pharma can be trusted implicitly.

I think we should make a real effort to find an alternative planet for you and your kind so that the rest of us won't have to deal with this shit. I'm hoping for Elon to get the job done ASAP.
Well, the bar was set at "your mother smells like a hamster" as the least helpful potential retort. And somehow you managed to do even worse than that.
 
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prag16

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Still been following this. It overwhelmingly passed the assembly along party lines early afternoon yesterday (one Democrat defected I believe). During this time a huge crowd of protesters amassing both inside and outside the building. By the time the Senate convened to vote on their version of the bill in the afternoon, the chants out in the street could be heard loud and clear from inside the Senate chamber. They put off the bill until last, and amazingly, they didn't have the votes. Even with a 2/3 Democrat supermajority, they couldn't get it across the finish line; at lest 6 Senate Dems defected. They called a 30 minute recess that ended up lasting two hours, during which they were trying to strongarm behind closed doors. It didn't work, at least for now. They came back out and announced the vote will be postponed. They may take it up again in the Senate before their session ends on January 13th. If that fails, they have to start from scratch on any measure with regard to this, in the 2020 session.

I'm legitimately shocked by this. New Jersey is the pharma capitol of the nation, and with their massive Dem majorities they still couldn't get it done (yet). We'll see what happens. When the 2020 sessions start up all over the country, expect similar bills to be proposed in at least a dozen other states, maybe more. But people aren't going quietly.

I'll say again, THIS ISN'T ABOUT ANTIVAXXERS. I am not an antivaxxer. EVERYONE should care about this. This is loss of personal liberty, medical freedom, parental rights, and religious freedom. If they can inject your kid with whatever they want, they can do the same to adults eventually. It could even lead to microchipping "for the greater good" as someone upthread pointed out.

This is bad for EVERYBODY.
This failed in NJ. As expected, they have already reintroduced an identical bill for the new 2020 session, but have to start the entire process all over again (committees, hearings, etc). A fun video on the Senator in NJ who is pushing this like his life depends on it (maybe it does)... This was from before the final effort last week, which failed as I stated:

[video]
There was similar chicanery in NY when they repealed their exemption last summer. Follow the money.
 

daveonezero

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Nov 19, 2018
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Science IS good. No doubt. None of us here have claimed otherwise. But "follow the money" applies here. This isn't magically the one and only time that does NOT apply. It isn't magically the one and only time big pharma can be trusted implicitly.



Well, the bar was set at "your mother smells like a hamster" as the least helpful potential retort. And somehow you managed to do even worse than that.
I’m on your side

I believe in viable mutation.

you never want 100% of a populations vaccinated.
Think about it. If a vaccine from a government was forced on its population to take an injectonly it only takes one bad actor to supply chain attack the injection.

or it isn’t 100% safe and ends up creating patient zero.

Vaccination is just not the best way to ensure the species survives.
 

prag16

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I’m on your side

I believe in viable mutation.

you never want 100% of a populations vaccinated.
Think about it. If a vaccine from a government was forced on its population to take an injectonly it only takes one bad actor to supply chain attack the injection.

or it isn’t 100% safe and ends up creating patient zero.

Vaccination is just not the best way to ensure the species survives.
No, I know we're on the same side of this. I replied to your post, but then was mostly speaking in reference to some of the brainless shills who previously posted in the topic in the rest of my post.
 
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prag16

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Won't bother with a new thread because I don't feel like getting dogpiled, but Connecticut and Illinois are currently trying to ram through religious exemption repeal now too (with NJ expected to try again shortly). There will be more as legislative sessions start to heat up around the country.

The CT one is pretty draconian. Immediate implementation, and new government panel to police MEDICAL exemptions too. Also adds new requirements for college, including for adults that want to go back for say community college classes. Definitely gateway to ceding even more medical freedoms moving forward. This is what people need to understand; this isn't just about "antivaxxers".

Not that anyone probably cares a whole lot, but http://informedchoicect.org/ has all the relevant info.
 
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