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[kingyala]

Ok So Elden ring RT update is out and you know what RT may be good but it is simply not meaningful in any game and I mean anygame including control. In a DF direct all the DF members themselves played the game on PS5 without raytracing accept Alex Battaglia. And you know what I just realized that if not for Dumb Demands of raytracing, the developers could have focused on optimizing video games for the three platforms, and we won't get this many broken game on every platform.

Major issues of All Platforms:

PS5: Weakest of three in IQ but you get the best performant version in terms of relative power and hardware but still gets the framedrops.

Xbox X: Nearly always looks better than PS5 output but always missing one or two critical things that just makes the release dead. RE4 -controller sucks, Callisto Protocol: Some fucking effect missing, Hogwarts Legacy - Framefacing issues clearly shows dev used most of their time optimization for their biggest player base

PC: Absolutely demolishes consoles in Image Quality and Performance but suffers severly from fucking stutters, and then you add the dumb RT and nearly every game stutters with RT on regardless of hardware. It's there in 4090 too, so fuck that.

And seriously so many fucking dumb modes on Consoles too.

Just make one 60 fps mode for console with FSR2 4K60 drs like look at RE4 it's just Mode Dumbness Galore on consoles and the 30 fps cinematic crowd can't even argue on that title, like it is 60 all time but never fucking hits it at two modes so it's all just big Dumbo dumba dumdum.

And then we fucking add RT mode and guess what all we needed was a bit better reflection and improved AO because as close to real light simulation RT produces the results matter nada when you are playing the game and are immersed in it. It does improve on things, things definitely look better, more realistic one would say but it only feels like slightly altered art direction.

DLSS2, FSR2 are the real deal and we need that incorporated in one mode that locks to 60 on all three fucking platforms and thats it. Ray tracing sucks and the addition and demand for it is hurting the game performance on launch on all platforms.

well said.... the raytracing propaganda is strong though... thanks to nvidia and content creators like df's alex..., i never understood why raytracing was being pushed since it started for some reasons people just fakely pretended puddle reflections and shadows where so awesome and changed graphics but i didnt see any visual change on the scene... bounce lighting has been done before nvidias raytracing came on the scene... traditional techniques are already better. People coldnt confrim if demon souls remake used raytracing because it looked so good!. and where dissapointed when the dev said he wasnt using raytracing.

People just want to hear that their game uses raytracing! so they can brag about it and feel safe even though the game is actually ugly as f.... traditional rendering techniques cost less per frame and showcase similar results and if not sometimes even better than raytracing.. gt7 wouldnt be possible at 4k 60 if it used raytracing.. raytracing is not a necessity at the moment it requires not only far more powerful gpu's than a 4090 it requires games to be made around it and fully path traced. hybrid raytracing is just a gimmick

 

[-tetsuo-]

 

[nemiroff]

i never understood why raytracing was being pushed

Simple. Because of the laws of physics. Go yell at a pond for reflecting light, go punch at shadows for being occlusive. It's just as stupid as complaining about RT.

 

[kingyala]

Growing pains. It had to start somewhere, and we're in it's infancy. It's not going anywhere and eventually will just be the standard.

the thing is it didnt start recently raytracing techniques have existed for a long time, ps4 games like dreams and the tomorrow children use raytracing.. the issue is nvidia's propaganda pr campaign have pushed it to the naive pc masterace camp in order to push gpu sales.. and clueless people just jumped in and bought the gpu's only to play games with raytraced puddle reflections and tree trunk shadows!... in reality hybrid raytracing is just a gimmick and fully realtime raytracing is years away to be convincingly different from traditional raster.. you need a gpu far more powerful than a 4090 and alot of memory otherwise theres nothing new.

 

[kingyala]

Simple. Because of the laws of physics. Go yell at a pond for reflecting light, go punch at shadows for being occlusive. It's just as stupid as complaining about RT.

thats irrelevant... the job of graphics is to present art thats believable and convincing and raytracing is just one of the ways, it doesnt matter how you render a scene what matters is if its convining enough and good... all computer graphics is maths trickery... real life is not raytraced, games like demon souls remake used other dynamic gi technique that looks just as convincing as ray traced techniques ive seen and it isnt using raytracing, lumen on ue5 uses another type of bounce lighting for its gi thats not expensive as the conventional bvh raytracing... the point is to look good not what technique your using... so why push some gimmick technology that for now all its done is kill performance for no convincing visual change.

 

[nemiroff]

real life is not raytraced,

It very kinda is raytraced, that's the whole point.

 

[kingyala]

RTGI and AO in The Witcher 3 is god like, i think RTGI is way more impressive then RTreflexions.

this is fraud, simply because there are traditional gi techniques you could use on the witcher 3 to make it look like rt gi.. this comparison just shows the difference of rtgi and the technique cdprojekt used on original witcher 3 version..

 

[Lethal01]

Real time Raytracing is the best thing to happen to graphics since the move to 3d.

 

[Loomy]

well said.... the raytracing propaganda is strong though... thanks to nvidia and content creators like df's alex..., i never understood why raytracing was being pushed since it started for some reasons people just fakely pretended puddle reflections and shadows where so awesome and changed graphics but i didnt see any visual change on the scene... bounce lighting has been done before nvidias raytracing came on the scene... traditional techniques are already better. People coldnt confrim if demon souls remake used raytracing because it looked so good!. and where dissapointed when the dev said he wasnt using raytracing.

People just want to hear that their game uses raytracing! so they can brag about it and feel safe even though the game is actually ugly as f.... traditional rendering techniques cost less per frame and showcase similar results and if not sometimes even better than raytracing.. gt7 wouldnt be possible at 4k 60 if it used raytracing.. raytracing is not a necessity at the moment it requires not only far more powerful gpu's than a 4090 it requires games to be made around it and fully path traced. hybrid raytracing is just a gimmick

the thing is it didnt start recently raytracing techniques have existed for a long time, ps4 games like dreams and the tomorrow children use raytracing.. the issue is nvidia's propaganda pr campaign have pushed it to the naive pc masterace camp in order to push gpu sales.. and clueless people just jumped in and bought the gpu's only to play games with raytraced puddle reflections and tree trunk shadows!... in reality hybrid raytracing is just a gimmick and fully realtime raytracing is years away to be convincingly different from traditional raster.. you need a gpu far more powerful than a 4090 and alot of memory otherwise theres nothing new.

real life is not raytraced

This is all so hilariously wrong I don't even know where to begin...

Also, what propaganda?

 

[Turk1993]

the thing is it didnt start recently raytracing techniques have existed for a long time, ps4 games like dreams and the tomorrow children use raytracing.. the issue is nvidia's propaganda pr campaign have pushed it to the naive pc masterace camp in order to push gpu sales.. and clueless people just jumped in and bought the gpu's only to play games with raytraced puddle reflections and tree trunk shadows!... in reality hybrid raytracing is just a gimmick and fully realtime raytracing is years away to be convincingly different from traditional raster.. you need a gpu far more powerful than a 4090 and alot of memory otherwise theres nothing new.

thats irrelevant... the job of graphics is to present art thats believable and convincing and raytracing is just one of the ways, it doesnt matter how you render a scene what matters is if its convining enough and good... all computer graphics is maths trickery... real life is not raytraced, games like demon souls remake used other dynamic gi technique that looks just as convincing as ray traced techniques ive seen and it isnt using raytracing, lumen on ue5 uses another type of bounce lighting for its gi thats not expensive as the conventional bvh raytracing... the point is to look good not what technique your using... so why push some gimmick technology that for now all its done is kill performance for no convincing visual change.

 

[Danjin44]

so why push some gimmick technology that for now all its done is kill performance for no convincing visual change.

Simple.....My plastic box is more powerful than your plastic box.

 

[RafterXL]

the thing is it didnt start recently raytracing techniques have existed for a long time, ps4 games like dreams and the tomorrow children use raytracing.. the issue is nvidia's propaganda pr campaign have pushed it to the naive pc masterace camp in order to push gpu sales.. and clueless people just jumped in and bought the gpu's only to play games with raytraced puddle reflections and tree trunk shadows!... in reality hybrid raytracing is just a gimmick and fully realtime raytracing is years away to be convincingly different from traditional raster.. you need a gpu far more powerful than a 4090 and alot of memory otherwise theres nothing new.

Ray tracing has existed for a long time but it's usage in video games is fairly new becausewe haven't had the hardware to use it. That hardware is like I said, fairly new. Dreams isn't a game a was released in 2020 and The Tomorrow Children doesn't use traditional ray tracing.

And, no, this isn't about Nvidias PR marketing, we were taking about Ray tracing on enthusiast forums and it being inevitable, long before Nvidia ever uttered the word in their marketing. Like in the late 90's. Just because you only started hearing about it once a video card company started making the hardware to properly support it doesn't mean that they invented the push or are just using it as propaganda. I'd say the clueless ones are people who believe your interpretation of events.

 

[kingyala]

It very kinda is raytraced, that's the whole point.

its not raytraced, raytracing is simply a mathematical immitation of how light works in nature... your simulating light with equations and algorythms but nature is infinite you cant simulate real life anyway you can say raytracing or path tracing is the best technique we have at simulation light but its just too expensive for the cost and as an artist what your trying to do is display convincing graphics so whatever technique that performs well enough to get the job done is better on a game.. to me it depends with the game something like ratchet and clank! where your trying to get a pixar film look... needs performant raytracing but something like resi 4 doesnt need raytracing cause even with full on raytracing it still looks worse than demons souls remake

 

[kingyala]

Simple.....My plastic box is more powerful than your plastic box.

exactly what nvidia wants... to push people into purchasing 2000$ cards so they can fight about how good they can render puddles better than their friends...

 

[SenkiDala]

I agree RT is shit in 99,9 of games, I only see control using it wisely without crushing that much down the performances.

That said... Devs need to get used to it, so to practice again and again until the hardware gets better and better to run it smoother and smoother, but yeah until then it sucks.

 

[Saber]

Honestly aways felt like its a waste of resources made to just appeal graphical fetish people.
Those same guys stop playing their game every second to look at the amount of ultra details the dirt, poop and rocks have.

 

[Riky]

We can have 60fps and RT with the right hardware and developer.

 

[kingyala]

Ray tracing has existed for a long time but it's usage in video games is fairly new becausewe haven't had the hardware to use it. That hardware is like I said, fairly new. Dreams isn't a game a was released in 2020 and The Tomorrow Children doesn't use traditional ray tracing.

And, no, this isn't about Nvidias PR marketing, we were taking about Ray tracing on enthusiast forums and it being inevitable, long before Nvidia ever uttered the word in their marketing. Like in the late 90's. Just because you only started hearing about it once a video card company started making the hardware to properly support it doesn't mean that they invented the push or are just using it as propaganda. I'd say the clueless ones are people who believe your interpretation of events.

the tomorrow children does use raytracing and dreams is a game as far as i can remember it runs realtime on a ps4 and playable just because you can use it to create games doesnt mean it isnt!..

 

[jaysius]

I've been saying it all the time.

RT is just a carrot that Nvidia fostered because they focus all their efforts on making their cards do it best. It's in their best interest to push this stupid carrot so people will fetishize it.

There is a plateau in GPUs right now, the big tie breaker is RT, Nvidia knew this would happen, so they created a new bar to make people buy their expensive cards.

 

[nemiroff]

its not raytraced, raytracing is simply a mathematical immitation of how light works in nature... your simulating light with equations and algorythms but nature is infinite you cant simulate real life anyway you can say raytracing or path tracing is the best technique we have at simulation light but its just too expensive for the cost and as an artist what your trying to do is display convincing graphics so whatever technique that performs well enough to get the job done is better on a game.. to me it depends with the game something like ratchet and clank! where your trying to get a pixar film look... needs performant raytracing but something like resi 4 doesnt need raytracing cause even with full on raytracing it still looks worse than demons souls remake

Yeah, I learnt about raytracing all the way back during my Amiga days. I remember it carried of the infamous simple raytraced "videos". And yes, of course everyone back then defined it as the future standard, for any kind of graphics really - And of course for very good reasons. I can't believe people want to embarass themselves fighting against it like fucking donkeys.

 

[Killer8]

Thread has serious "How is babby formed?" energy.

 

[Turk1993]

exactly what nvidia wants... to push people into purchasing 2000$ cards so they can fight about how good they can render puddles better than their friends...

Nvidia BAD GUY HRRRRR!
Meanwhile Nvidia pushing real time graphics to new heights and delivering best GPU's in the market that has no competition

 

[kingyala]

This is all so hilariously wrong I don't even know where to begin...

Also, what propaganda?

alot of propaganda to sell 2000$ gpu's the same propaganda nvidia had years ago about physx, they keep on coming

 

[nemiroff]

RT is just a carrot that Nvidia fostered because they focus all their efforts on making their cards do it best. It's in their best interest to push this stupid carrot so people will fetishize it.

Ok, I think I've had enough internet for today..

Godspeed to anyone managing to stomach this bizarre feces flinging fest.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

It's just one of many ways the villainous pc people have corrupted our once-pure console gaming realm.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

it is. but not quite there yet

 

[BackBackPunch]

The fact of the matter is that fully ray traced graphics are esstentially the most true-to-life, accurate visuals that we as humans can achieve. That's because it's essentially a mathmatical simulation of how light works in real-life. And the mathmatics are very, very computationally heavy. Raster techniques have always been about "faking it" to try to get closer to the results you'd get with a fully raytraced scene. It's not a gimmick, and it's not dumb, and it's not pointless. The thing that's making people confused is the fact that the only raytracing we are getting in games currently is just a tiny piece of raytracing. It's just a sliver of what it can do, tacked-on to games running on the same raster backend as they always have.

 

[kingyala]

Yeah, I learnt about raytracing all the way back during my Amiga days. I remember it carried of the infamous simple raytraced "videos". And yes, of course everyone back then defined it as the future standard, for any kind of graphics really - And of course for very good reasons. I can't believe people want to embarass themselves fighting against it like fucking donkeys.

this is not about fighting against raytracing, any technique to simulate light convincgly enough to nature is welcome, the problem is current hardware and software isnt there yet... and using traditional gi techniques that are performant enough is better all resi 4 needs is good old ssr and backed gi its doesnt een use dynamic weather your just playing on a dark village they should have spent the energy and resources on making sure the game performs well on each platform and fix all bugs

 

[Thebonehead]

the thing is it didnt start recently raytracing techniques have existed for a long time, ps4 games like dreams and the tomorrow children use raytracing.. the issue is nvidia's propaganda pr campaign have pushed it to the naive pc masterace camp in order to push gpu sales.. and clueless people just jumped in and bought the gpu's only to play games with raytraced puddle reflections and tree trunk shadows!... in reality hybrid raytracing is just a gimmick and fully realtime raytracing is years away to be convincingly different from traditional raster.. you need a gpu far more powerful than a 4090 and alot of memory otherwise theres nothing new.

You seem overly emotionally invested and full of hot takes in almost every post.

 

[kingyala]

Nvidia BAD GUY HRRRRR!
Meanwhile Nvidia pushing real time graphics to new heights and delivering best GPU's in the market that has no competition

yeah right some fancy marble demo to showcase graphics is what we need! show me a full on game with physics, ao, particles, explosions going of, 100s of characters on screen going on about it like a michael bay film with raytracing and ill agree.. not some fancy lighting demo

 

[Gaiff]

You seem overly emotionally invested and full of hot takes in almost every post.

Of course, he is. He's a warrior. I don't see him lasting for very long with the way he's been acting since he joined.

 

[Alex11]

These RT disputes are getting a bit tiresome, in the sense that there are other things that are important in a game visual wise. I'll take any day a static time of day, baked lightning, artistically impressive or stylized games.

I mean, I understand it to a point, like making the work easier, but it's still a video game, and the graphics IMO are not about being as close to reality as possible, it's about the vision of the artists and creators and what they want to convey or for us to feel, you can't ever match that with all the tech and whatnot.

 

[kingyala]

You seem overly emotionally invested and full of hot takes in almost every post.

i like expressing my thoughts... in a full manner nothing emotional

 

[kingyala]

We can have 60fps and RT with the right hardware and developer.

theyll probably use vrs or some reconstruction technique it wont be full 4k 60 rt without a cost, Well see

 

[Esppiral]

We need more Raytraced global illumination and less shiny Raytraced reflections

 

[Turk1993]

this is not about fighting against raytracing, any technique to simulate light convincgly enough to nature is welcome, the problem is current hardware and software isnt there yet... and using traditional gi techniques that are performant enough is better all resi 4 needs is good old ssr and backed gi its doesnt een use dynamic weather your just playing on a dark village they should have spent the energy and resources on making sure the game performs well on each platform and fix all bugs

Good old SSR yeah, fuck RT

yeah right some fancy marble demo to showcase graphics is what we need! show me a full on game with physics, ao, particles, explosions going of, 100s of characters on screen going on about it like a michael bay film with raytracing and ill agree.. not some fancy lighting demo

Already showed you on my previous post lol

 

[Markio128]

Like others have said, it really does depend on the developer. As a console owner, I haven’t seen much in the way of RT, but Insomniac impressed me with Spider-man and R&C. I think it helps if the developer builds the engine with RT in mind, rather than tacking it on at a later date, like with ER and The Witcher 3.

 

[kingyala]

Good old SSR yeah, fuck RT

Already showed you on my previous post lol

again this examples are irrelevant they simply show previous traditional lighting setup they used before they applied rt. the thing is you can use other techniques to get the same result as in rt on metro, as for the reflections in control you can use other techniques aswell such as render to texture or high res cube maps... self reflections have been done even on ps2.. the point is however accurate rt is, it doesnt merit the performance it eats other than a gimmick

 

[Turk1993]

again this examples are irrelevant they simply show previous traditional lighting setup they used before they applied rt. the thing is you can use other techniques to get the same result as in rt on metro, as for the reflections in control you can use other techniques aswell such as render to texture or high res cube maps... self reflections have been done even on ps2.. the point is however accurate rt is, it doesnt merit the performance it eats other than a gimmick

 

[Gaiff]

Right? Can't believe what I'm reading. This kid is embarrassing himself.

 

[mrqs]

RayTracing is much, much more than just shadows or reflections. RayTracing is changing how games are lit, and that changes a lot of the development process and will enable A LOT to gamers.

Most games don't have much interactivity mainly because the static lighting makes it just super hard to make things pretty while moving. Gaming will change a lot because of these technologies.

 

[Johnny Concrete]

Do you want real ass graphics or not?

Console hardware is not ready for full realtime RT. Neither will the next gen of consoles.
But when they do… you can stop looking outside your window, because what is on the screen looks just as real!

 

[KloetenQuetsche]

What is called RayTracing today is the half truth. Ray tracing is here when pathtracing is fully integrated in every game.

 

[Filben]

Just look at Dying Light 2 with all RT options on. Looks vastly more realistic and grounded, especially outside where traditional lighting often sucks with seamless interiors.

 

[Barakov]

Yeah, ray tracing is pretty nice when implemented correctly. Hopefully, when/if these Pro consoles hit we'll get real ray tracing with 60fps.

 

[Knightime_X]

The raytracing in metroid prime remake looked good.

Be it pre-rendered or real-time, people don't know just how important rtx truly is.

 

[Braag]

Hard disagree. Ray tracing when used correctly can completely change the look of the game, best examples are Cyberpunk 2077, Metro Exodus, Callisto Protocol. These were games that from the very beginning implemented RT in their games and used it to great effect. Funnily enough CP2077 and Metro Exodus run and look a lot of better than a lot of other games that shoehorned RT into their games later on. Just slapping RT reflections or shadow in your game year after release means the devs most likely haven't optimized the RT performance and its use is lackluster (Elden Ring is a good example of this).
People who are against RT are for the most part, people who don't have the hardware to run RT, console gamers since RT is extremely limited there, people who every generation think that "graphics are good enough" and don't want to push forward or just people who have trouble with their eyes.

 

[M1chl]

I understand that there is just one title where they showed what you can do with this technique, if you made your pipeline RT based, not just shoehorn effects on to top of it.

And it is truly depressing to see, that stagnation given inflated cross gen policies.

Play Metro: EE and then come back. 1440p to 60FPS with RT

 

[Turk1993]

Right? Can't believe what I'm reading. This kid is embarrassing himself.

He doesn't know what he is talking, he thinks that RT is Nvidia exclusive marketing gimmick.

Even Epic themeself say that games with dynamic worlds need to have compromises or you need a static world to bake everything in (which lots of games currently do). And thats where RT comes in place and makes that dynamic world look good all the time without compromise.

starts at 1:25

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

You're mistaken OP.