• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Reality setting in: Most Americans now don't want Medicare For All.

Aug 24, 2016
3,786
2,029
645
https://www.businessinsider.com/medicare-for-all-bernie-sanders-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-poll-2019-3
  • The luster of "Medicare for All," the healthcare plan advanced by progressives like Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, is starting to fade.
  • According to a new poll, 43% of Americans think Medicare for All is a good idea, while 45% say it is a bad idea.
  • 51% of people said it was a good idea in August 2017, while 38% said it was a bad idea.
  • But a Medicare buy-in option, advanced by more moderate Democrats, is much more popular.
  • 51% of people surveyed supported that idea, while just 30% were against it.

Americans are starting to cool on the idea of "Medicare for All," but there is a more moderate Democratic proposal that still captures the public's attention, according to a new poll.
A Quinnipiac University poll found that support for the Medicare for All idea, which has been advanced by progressives like Sen. Bernie Sanders and Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, has slipped substantially over the last year and a half.
In August 2017, 51% of Americans thought Medicare for All was a "good idea," while just 38% thought it was a "bad idea." In the poll released Tuesday, the percentage of Americans calling Medicare for All a "good idea" was down to 43%, while 45% said it was a "bad idea."

A Medicare buy-in, in which people could either keep their private insurance or choose to shift to the government's Medicare program, actually attracted support from a majority of people.

51% of Americans said the buy-in option was a "good idea," while just 30% said it is a "bad idea."

The Medicare buy-in drew much more support among Democrats and independents, but even a plurality of self-described Republicans liked the idea. 43% said it was a "good idea," while 39% said the buy-in was a "bad idea."
Looks like the last 2 years have woken many people up and they are leaning away fro many socialist-esque polices, the latest being medicare for all. Instead people are attracted to the more capitalist option, it seems like the "government only destroy all private companies" plan is failing, and that the horrifying "aingle-payer" is also falling apart.
 

DiscoJer

Member
Sep 26, 2009
11,981
492
795
St. Louis
Every other 1st world country in the world has socialized medicine and they pay half for healthcare the US does. People want that - health care like the UK or Canada. The reality is we don't have a free market health care system, because that would be impossible without not licensing doctors/nurses, not limiting who can buy, sell, and manufacturing drugs, etc.

Medicare for all won't solve the problems any more than forcing people to buy health insurance (Obama/Romney care) is. The system needs to be blown up.
 

autoduelist

Member
Aug 30, 2014
7,981
5,479
705
One of the (many) lies about healthcare in America is that no one likes it. A lot of people like their healthcare, especially if they feel like they can afford it.
Yup. My doctor is great.

Where I take issue is when government intervention [among other things] causes the doctors / hospitals, the insurance companies, and big pharm to send prices through the roof.

Hospitals need to overcharge because they know X percentage of people will not pay, and most of the rest will use insurance companies that refuse to pay full price. Insurance companies need to avoid paying full price because the prices are so high. Big Pharm jumps in and lets the American populace subsidize research.

It's a mess. Xrays should be a dime a dozen by now. So should many other relatively basic procedures and tests. The prices are inflated for a variety of reasons, some of which I outlined above.

Elective surgery not covered by insurance does not have this problem. Lasik is a common example. Prices remain fairly level or even go down due to improvements in technology and greater competition.

While that in and if itself wouldn't solve major, non-electuve needs overnight, we do need to find a way to inject competition into many tests and procedures [xrays, blood tests, etc].

As for universal health care.... well...
1) close borders before we even discuss that
2) telling people what they can charge for their services is wrong [ie, govt paying fixed fees for services rendered]. This will also potentially cause those who would be skilled doctors to choose another career.
3) I want to be able to choose my doctor. I am willing to pay more for a number of factors, including convenience, reputation and skill set, Etc.
4) the very rich will still make sure they get the very best treatment. It's very easy to accidentally create two classes of care... public and private [see our educational system].

I don't think we can get past 1. I don't think we can get past the morality of number two. I don't think we can get past the freedom of number 3. I don't think we can get past the problems of number 4.
 

Coffe Time

Member
Feb 19, 2018
200
98
170
I am all for socialized medicine, but unfortunately setting up something like that would take unfathomably long. The medicare buy-in seems like a good transitional step. I like that plan.
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
4,192
4,516
785
Yup. My doctor is great.

Where I take issue is when government intervention [among other things] causes the doctors / hospitals, the insurance companies, and big pharm to send prices through the roof.

Hospitals need to overcharge because they know X percentage of people will not pay, and most of the rest will use insurance companies that refuse to pay full price. Insurance companies need to avoid paying full price because the prices are so high. Big Pharm jumps in and lets the American populace subsidize research.

It's a mess. Xrays should be a dime a dozen by now. So should many other relatively basic procedures and tests. The prices are inflated for a variety of reasons, some of which I outlined above.

Elective surgery not covered by insurance does not have this problem. Lasik is a common example. Prices remain fairly level or even go down due to improvements in technology and greater competition.

While that in and if itself wouldn't solve major, non-electuve needs overnight, we do need to find a way to inject competition into many tests and procedures [xrays, blood tests, etc].

As for universal health care.... well...
1) close borders before we even discuss that
2) telling people what they can charge for their services is wrong [ie, govt paying fixed fees for services rendered]. This will also potentially cause those who would be skilled doctors to choose another career.
3) I want to be able to choose my doctor. I am willing to pay more for a number of factors, including convenience, reputation and skill set, Etc.
4) the very rich will still make sure they get the very best treatment. It's very easy to accidentally create two classes of care... public and private [see our educational system].

I don't think we can get past 1. I don't think we can get past the morality of number two. I don't think we can get past the freedom of number 3. I don't think we can get past the problems of number 4.
Telling people what they can charge for something isn’t morally wrong if they are price gouging. And right now, they are doing that.

The whole system is fucked from the education level all the way through to care rendered. There is no competition In the healthcare industry and the only way to properly regulate it is to have a single payer to control prices via negotiation.

Yes, nonessential healthcare like LASIK or plastic has competition because they aren’t a matter of life and death. But when you are having a heart attack you can’t shop for the doctor with the best rates and standard of care. Hell, they don’t even post their pricing.
 

Tesseract

Crushed by Thanos
Dec 7, 2008
33,372
5,260
1,340
all they need to do is open up the premium lines across states

that's it
 

royox

Member
Nov 3, 2013
3,635
1,251
565
32
In my country having social healthcare is just common sense. But again, we are taking bout the country that has Donald Trump as President so...enjoy what you voted??
 

Musky_Cheese

Community Liaison
Oct 23, 2016
6,046
9,886
905
Here's the truth

The majority of Americans pretty much agree on all ideas. That is until the conversation changes to money.

Should we save the Spotted Owl? Cover everyone with their Health Care? Better education? Better roads? Free ice cream for all children?

Yes yes yes yes yes

Ok all we have to do is pay more money in taxes...

Nope nope nope nope nope
 

autoduelist

Member
Aug 30, 2014
7,981
5,479
705
Telling people what they can charge for something isn’t morally wrong if they are price gouging. And right now, they are doing that.
I dont agree they are price gouging, so we will just go in circles on that. I believe hospitals are responding to all the factors I listed and more.

Just reducing it to one factor: They can not charge exactly they right price when they know x% of people will skip out on the bill and insurance companies will not pay full price.

So they raise the price, creating a feedback loop. This is not 'gouging', even though I agree the prices are now astronomical. In fact, if you don't have insurance they are often willing to reduce bills by a significant percentage. I've gotten 60%, I've heard stories of 90%.

The government should not be setting price caps. That is immoral. That will break the system. I'd we didnt have a broken system, we -want- the best doctors to charge high because the promise of getting rich will bring more talent to the ranks, adding competition, and lowering prices. If you set a max price, you inherently break the balance. The very best will still find a way to get rich [since celebs, etc, will still seek them out specifically] but you dont create a wage increase in the regular industry that allows for self correction.

I am all aboard the healthcare is broken trian, just like I'm shoveling coal into the education is broke n train as fast as I can. But I do not believe govt takeover is a moral, or viable, solution in any way.
 
Last edited:

Grinchy

Member
Aug 3, 2010
21,746
4,470
935
In a cave outside of Whooville.
I think I like the idea of healthcare for everyone, but then I read anecdotes from people living in countries that have it. They say they are on a list for over a year to get a surgery they need. And if they want to speed things up, they have to pay for private health care to get it done, which defeats the whole purpose of your tax rate being so high to compensate for things like medical care in the first place.

Maybe keeping taxes lower and letting every person shop for their own medical insurance is a better option. And I'm saying maybe because I genuinely don't know. With 330M people living in the US, that's a lot of free healthcare to give out and it could lead to really long queues. And the costs could put us into a position of paying way more in taxes.
 

royox

Member
Nov 3, 2013
3,635
1,251
565
32
You also have long lines for standard procedures. No thanks.
When I had a problem I was attended at the moment. Broke my arm, got my arm sealed the moment I reached the hospital. Had a little car accident, the ambulance came and transported me to the nearest hospital and X-Ray'd my neck just to make sure I didn't have any lession.

And I don't have to pay 30.000€ for an X-Ray + Magnetic Resonance Imaging for the doctor to know what the hell is wrong with my foot and why does it hurt when I walk (problem already solved literally paying 0€).

I can keep going on and on and on with daily examples. You have no idea of what you are talking about. We are not talking about 3rd world countries.

Of course, If by some reason there's "a waiting line" I always have the OPTION to go to a private place.
 

ilsayed

Member
Nov 7, 2018
128
75
180
I'd rather die than help someone else out, especially if that person is less fortunate than me. Fuck them.
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
4,192
4,516
785
I dont agree they are price gouging, so we will just go in circles on that. I believe hospitals are responding to all the factors I listed and more.

Just reducing it to one factor: They can not charge exactly they right price when they know x% of people will skip out on the bill and insurance companies will not pay full price.

So they raise the price, creating a feedback loop. This is not 'gouging', even though I agree the prices are now astronomical. In fact, if you don't have insurance they are often willing to reduce bills by a significant percentage. I've gotten 60%, I've heard stories of 90%.

The government should not be setting price caps. That is immoral. That will break the system. I'd we didnt have a broken system, we -want- the best doctors to charge high because the promise of getting rich will bring more talent to the ranks, adding competition, and lowering prices. If you set a max price, you inherently break the balance. The very best will still find a way to get rich [since celebs, etc, will still seek them out specifically] but you dont create a wage increase in the regular industry that allows for self correction.

I am all aboard the healthcare is broken trian, just like I'm shoveling coal into the education is broke n train as fast as I can. But I do not believe govt takeover is a moral, or viable, solution in any way.
With the exception of a few fields, doctors are glorified mechanics. It shouldn’t cost hundreds of dollars to visit a GP for 15 minutes to get an antibiotic prescription.

The thing is, they think they deserve a huge salary and to get wealthy. And what qualifies as wealthy gets to be a higher number every year, while middle class incomes don’t go up.

Our entire economy is broken. Healthcare is a symptom that hits everyone though.

Japan has price fixing for services. They also have very good doctors and a better life expectancy than we do. Then again, their culture isn’t all about fuck you pay me like the states.

I’ll add, if you are becoming a doctor to get rich, you shouldn’t be studying to be a doctor.
 
Jun 26, 2018
1,519
1,085
235
42
Milwaukee, WI
Japan has price fixing for services. They also have very good doctors and a better life expectancy than we do. Then again, their culture isn’t all about fuck you pay me like the states.
Japan is finding out that model is unsustainable. Like we keep saying about socialized medicine.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-13/health-care-paradox-threatens-to-add-to-japan-s-debt-problems

That’s a pressing question in a country burdened by the largest sovereign debt of any industrialized nation and a shrinking taxpayer base. Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said in October that his administration is looking to avert a “national crisis” by implementing measures to tame runaway spending on health and other social services. Government projections show costs topping 70 trillion yen ($620 billion) by 2040, a 66 percent increase from 2017.

In contrast with the U.K., Australia, and other countries that run national health services, Japan has patched together a more-or-less universal coverage system that relies on an assortment of private and public medical facilities, thousands of insurers, and powerful professional groups representing doctors and pharmacists. Patients are responsible for copayments but have the freedom to choose their doctors and the frequency of consultations. The system also encourages doctors to squeeze in as many patients as possible.
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
3,400
4,159
375
When I had a problem I was attended at the moment. Broke my arm, got my arm sealed the moment I reached the hospital. Had a little car accident, the ambulance came and transported me to the nearest hospital and X-Ray'd my neck just to make sure I didn't have any lession.

And I don't have to pay 30.000€ for an X-Ray + Magnetic Resonance Imaging for the doctor to know what the hell is wrong with my foot and why does it hurt when I walk (problem already solved literally paying 0€).

I can keep going on and on and on with daily examples. You have no idea of what you are talking about. We are not talking about 3rd world countries.

Of course, If by some reason there's "a waiting line" I always have the OPTION to go to a private place.
Do you? You paid for every service that was rendered upon you. To claim you paid nothing is a flat out lie
 

autoduelist

Member
Aug 30, 2014
7,981
5,479
705
With the exception of a few fields, doctors are glorified mechanics. It shouldn’t cost hundreds of dollars to visit a GP for 15 minutes to get an antibiotic prescription.

The thing is, they think they deserve a huge salary and to get wealthy. And what qualifies as wealthy gets to be a higher number every year, while middle class incomes don’t go up.

Our entire economy is broken. Healthcare is a symptom that hits everyone though.

Japan has price fixing for services. They also have very good doctors and a better life expectancy than we do. Then again, their culture isn’t all about fuck you pay me like the states.

I’ll add, if you are becoming a doctor to get rich, you shouldn’t be studying to be a doctor.
Of course it shouldn't cost that much. Nobody disagrees with that. What we disagree with are the causes and solutions.

And yes, some doctors deserve to be rich. I know if I'm going under the knife, I want someone driven by every force on the planet to be the best at what they are. That includes wealth. I'm all happy you're okay with the doctor who just wanted to dedicate their life to good feels, but I want the one I want. I want the best talent in the world to be financially rewarded and incentivized to go into medicine rather than, say 'mechanics', as you say. And i want to be allowed to pay for the one I want.
 
Last edited:
Jun 26, 2018
1,519
1,085
235
42
Milwaukee, WI
Spain, Barcelona. Ak.a best city of the world :3
https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/11/29/inenglish/1543509744_110649.html

Patients wait an average of 93 days for surgery at a public hospital in Spain, and one in every eight people wait over six months, according to new data released on Thursday by the Health Ministry.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/04/spain-cruel-austerity-measures-leave-patients-suffering/

Harsh austerity measures implemented by the Spanish government have had a devastating impact on some of the most economically vulnerable and marginalized people in society, resulting in unbearably long waiting lists and forcing patients to ration their medication to save costs, Amnesty International said today.

No thanks.
 
Oct 26, 2018
2,941
2,249
440
Well, if Americans feel that way, that's how it goes. In other first world nations, it's typically the opposite. People are willing to pay more tax for the greater good.

Don't get me wrong, I love making money and being a greedy fuck, but for certain things like healthcare and education, those are two things I believe everyone should have a good shot at. And that means paying taxes to cover it.

And I'm single, no kids and have never needed serious medical care. A few doctor checks here and there, a few blood tests to make sure everything is ok, and the occasional prescription drug ticket, and that's it. I have no kids, so it's not like any of my taxes are helping teach my own kids.

But if you want a good society, you got to ensure the less fortunate gets a shot at life. Let's face it, it's not like we get taxed so much everyone is broke like a farmer getting raped by Kings for every gold coin they earn. Just about everyone with a half decent job in a first world country can spare a few bucks to help out health and schooling.

That's probably why out of all first world rich nations, the US is the only one where you get tons of slums and ghettos.

But hey, that's just my opinion. If some people want as low taxes as possible because they never get sick, they can buy any supplemental insurance covering all bases, and that means lots of down and out people get grilled with a dcotor's visit bill so they are perpetually broke, that's their call too as it's their money.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2018
2,941
2,249
440
It just seems to me that almost all of the socialized health care systems I read about seem to get worse while costing more over time.
Probably no different in the US. Worse and costs go up too. Out of all first world countries, US public health (disease, life expectancy, etc... is always among the worst/lowest). US costs are already sky high compared to other countries and people buy supplemental insurance. So it shows there's tons of money floating around. It's not like the general populace is broke.

The key difference is the money flows to a US healthcare system of privatized services, leading to humongous profits to whichever company or doctor runs that building.

Even if socialized health systems in some countries are lacking, the goal is universal coverage, so everyone gets a chance.

It's like water. It seems every city anywhere in the world has government run water systems. That is a fair thing to do, instead of privatizing it so people with money get normal tap water, but poor people get drink and bathe in sewage water.

Got to give a break to people sometimes. And healthcare is one of them IMO.
 
Last edited:

rorepmE

Member
Jan 20, 2019
154
171
230
Republic of Val Verde
Every other 1st world country in the world has socialized medicine and they pay half for healthcare the US does. People want that - health care like the UK or Canada. The reality is we don't have a free market health care system, because that would be impossible without not licensing doctors/nurses, not limiting who can buy, sell, and manufacturing drugs, etc.

Medicare for all won't solve the problems any more than forcing people to buy health insurance (Obama/Romney care) is. The system needs to be blown up.
Yeah and they also pay ridiculously high taxes for those "free" services.

You think people in the 10% or 15% bracket in America would want universal coverage if they had to fork over 50% of their income to the IRS?

Haha. OK.
 
Last edited:

Mohonky

Member
Jan 19, 2007
11,184
703
1,285
You also have long lines for standard procedures. No thanks.
......so then you buy your own private insurance.

Best of both worlds. If I can't afford private health insurance, I like my chances of having access to procedures within a reasonable period to having no access to procedures.
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
4,192
4,516
785
It just seems to me that almost all of the socialized health care systems I read about seem to get worse while costing more over time.
We literally have the most expensive health care system in the developed world. We pay more for less care than everyone else. How are they costing more over time?
 
Jun 26, 2018
1,519
1,085
235
42
Milwaukee, WI
How are they costing more over time?
I don't ever have to wait to see a doctor or a specialist. In both articles I presented, patients of socialized medicine are having to wait weeks for a doctor and oftentimes months to see a specialist. Also, in Spain and Japan, it seems the costs are rising so fast that the level of care is suffering. And it definitely isn't limited to those countries. Italy, Greece and Portugal have had to introduce participation fees to offset the costs. These plans to cover everybody while people pay little are unsustainable. And many of us are preaching that this is the eventual outcome when government is put in charge of it. Government will not fix your healthcare.
 
Last edited:

1.21Gigawatts

can't help talking about pedophiles
Nov 24, 2012
8,422
191
550
munich
Japan is finding out that model is unsustainable. Like we keep saying about socialized medicine.
Germanys universal healthcare system has been going strong for over 100 years now.
It's only unsustainable when it's done badly. If done right its a massive investment into society that pays of in heaps and droves.
 

RedVIper

Member
Jun 13, 2017
1,522
1,842
420
Germanys universal healthcare system has been going strong for over 100 years now.
It's only unsustainable when it's done badly. If done right its a massive investment into society that pays of in heaps and droves.
Yes because we all know Germany was the exact same 100 years ago as it is now. Absolutely nothing has changed about their healthcare system in 100 years.
 
Jun 26, 2018
1,519
1,085
235
42
Milwaukee, WI
Germanys universal healthcare system has been going strong for over 100 years now.
Germany has had its problems, but to your point, it is an outlier in Europe right now. However, the aging population is going to present the same problems. It's going to cost more to care for those people who won't generate the revenue they need for the economy. Couple that with the growing number of immigrants and you're going to see the same problems as in the rest of Europe.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-care-billing-scam-linked-to-russian-organized-crime/a-19196352
 

epicnemesis

Member
May 9, 2008
481
369
955
One thing no one mentions when it comes to the socialization of America is the scalability. The only country with socialized medicine the “works” and is a similar size to the US is Canada, and they have 1/10th the population. The illegal immigrants in the US alone is 1/3rd the population of Canada.
We are bigger land wise and population wise than the counties we want to ape.

With that said, the system is completely broken as it is, and something needs to change. Opening state borders for insurance and allowing the importation of medicine from foreign countries would be a good start. Americans are being gouged by an inefficient system that has been rigged by hospital administration costs and insurance company’s bargaining power.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
Mar 24, 2009
7,458
136
795
33
London
Every other 1st world country in the world has socialized medicine and they pay half for healthcare the US does. People want that - health care like the UK or Canada. The reality is we don't have a free market health care system, because that would be impossible without not licensing doctors/nurses, not limiting who can buy, sell, and manufacturing drugs, etc.

Medicare for all won't solve the problems any more than forcing people to buy health insurance (Obama/Romney care) is. The system needs to be blown up.
I am not sure why anyone would want healthcare like the UK with our really poor outcomes/wait times. It's 'free', yes, but not very good.
 

1.21Gigawatts

can't help talking about pedophiles
Nov 24, 2012
8,422
191
550
munich
Germany has had its problems, but to your point, it is an outlier in Europe right now. However, the aging population is going to present the same problems. It's going to cost more to care for those people who won't generate the revenue they need for the economy. Couple that with the growing number of immigrants and you're going to see the same problems as in the rest of Europe.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-care-billing-scam-linked-to-russian-organized-crime/a-19196352
Thing about universal healthcare is that it's necessary regardless of the cost, but despite whatever bullshit arguments right winger in the US come up with, it's also much more cost efficient than any other system.
The US is currently spending twice as much per capita on healthcare for worse outcomes compared to the European average. Simply because free market rules apply in a universal healthcare system, but not in a system like the one the US has.

But yeah, I think universal healthcare is a necessity when a country wants to call itself civilized.
What the US has is a disgrace and the only reason it is upheld is because a couple of industries are making big bank and influencing politics and media in order to keep it that way.
None of the arguments brought up against it hold any merit, no of these things concern anyone in Europe. Universal healthcare is the single most uncontroversial topic I know of.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kenpachii

juliotendo

Gold Member
Jan 5, 2019
753
1,250
500
Mexico
Good luck on providing “free” medical coverage to over 300+ million people that is America.

Leftists always prop up Canada and U.K as models for “free” healthcare — and the Scandinavian countries.... but they never mention the minuscule population and super high tax rates across the board for citizens. If you think the middle and lower classes would be willing to fork out 40% of their income in taxes to the US government you’re lying to yourself.

Ask the U.K. how their national health service is working out, it’s crumbling and ridden with waste. Ask the Canadians — it takes months to be seen for simple procedures.

I’m not against the idea, it just doesn’t work out especially in a country as large as the US.
 
Jun 26, 2018
1,519
1,085
235
42
Milwaukee, WI
What the US has is a disgrace and the only reason it is upheld is because a couple of industries are making big bank and influencing politics and media in order to keep it that way.
That's fine. You can keep your crappy level of care for the comforting thought that you "don't have to pay anything." I would and do rather pay for a level of quality that allows me to see a specialist instantly, not have to ration my medicine and know I am seeing some of the best educated doctors in the world. And thanks to those nasty right wingers, I still get to choose my doctor. And the point we are all making is that the level of your quality of care is going to CONTINUE to suffer. And it's going to cost people their lives.

https://fee.org/articles/if-american-healthcare-kills-european-healthcare-kills-more/

If America had the 30-day stroke-mortality rate of the UK, for example, we could expect about an additional 38,000 deaths a year. For Canada, that number would be around 43,500. And this only accounts for mortality within a month of having a stroke, which in turn accounts for only 10% of stroke-related deaths.

This is further reflected in overall stroke-mortality statistics: for every 1,000 strokes that occur annually in the US, approximately 170 stroke-related deaths occur. The latter number is 250 and 280 for the UK and Canada respectively. Considering that approximately 795,000 strokes occur each year in the US, the discrepancy in stroke-related mortality is humongous.

If we weight the CDC-quoted survival rates for different forms of cancer in accordance with their contribution to overall cancer mortality, we find that, with the UK’s survival rates, there would be about 72,000 additional deaths annually in the United States. There would similarly be about 21,000, 23,000, and 31,000 additional deaths per year with Canadian, French, and German survival rates.
 
Oct 26, 2018
2,941
2,249
440
It's funny how some Americans think their healthcare system is so great. Sure, it's great if you want to be a greedy ass and let poorer people shrivel up and die, where paying healthcare costs can financially cripple them for life.

If you look at any stat comparing life expectancy and diseases among first world countries, the US is always among the worst. So it shows even with the supposedly "best healthcare and best technology", the overall population probably has similar health to someone living in Cuba. In fact, basically the same rate and rank. Cuba is a dirt poor country with crap gear and people living there still live just as long. All those expert doctors and pills in the US aren't doing anything for the greater good. Now if they took all those experts and offered that care to everyone, the US would probably zoom to the top of the charts, but since the best care is limited to people with money, or people who work at great companies with top tier health perks, it means the best care goes to those. While someone in the bottom class probably avoids doctors because they can't afford even basic visits and help get a broken arm set and casted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

As for people bringing up taxes. It goes more than healthcare. Better schools and social assistance are improved too.

In all other first world countries, you'll never see any of them with so many crappy ghettos, slummy schools, and abandoned neighbourhoods.

It's all about contributing enough to give the greater good a minimum level of help. It's not like upper class people get taxed 90% so everyone ends up in the same boat like a comunist country where every job pays the same amount. The people with better jobs and pay still have better stuff because they still have more income. It's just that it's smoothed out more than the US which is an absurd level of haves (mega mansions) and have-nots (ghetto slums).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Miku Miku

Tygeezy

Member
Sep 28, 2018
490
412
220
Every other 1st world country in the world has socialized medicine and they pay half for healthcare the US does. People want that - health care like the UK or Canada. The reality is we don't have a free market health care system, because that would be impossible without not licensing doctors/nurses, not limiting who can buy, sell, and manufacturing drugs, etc.

Medicare for all won't solve the problems any more than forcing people to buy health insurance (Obama/Romney care) is. The system needs to be blown up.
Not everybody wants healthcare where you have to wait a long time to see your doctor or a specialists or get any diagnostics done which is the downfall of socialized medicine.
 
Oct 26, 2018
2,941
2,249
440
Not everybody wants healthcare where you have to wait a long time to see your doctor or a specialists or get any diagnostics done which is the downfall of socialized medicine.
Not really.

Universal socialized healthcare is superior to the US system of the more you pay the better you get.

You are forgetting about important factors of social well being....... living standards, life expectancy, disease, and access to healthcare.

A US system of "I pay more, I get more" for healthcare leads to results where the US scrapes the bottom of the barrel against other developed countries. Check out the link I post above regarding life expectancy. The US has trouble competing with places like Costa Rica and Cuba for around 30th place. All those huge healthcare expenditures in the US is just lining the pockets of doctors, medical companies, and pharma companies.
 
Last edited:

Tygeezy

Member
Sep 28, 2018
490
412
220
How do we decrease the cost of medical care thus giving people more access while simultaneously not decreasing the quality of health care? Whatever is the answer to that should be the plan (if there is one).
 

Tygeezy

Member
Sep 28, 2018
490
412
220
Not really.

Universal socialized healthcare is superior to the US system of the more you pay the better you get.

You are forgetting about important factors of social well being....... living standards, life expectancy, disease, and access to healthcare.

A US system of "I pay more, I get more" for healthcare leads to results where the US scrapes the bottom of the barrel against other developed countries. Check out the link I post above regarding life expectancy. The US has trouble competing with places like Costa Rica and Cuba for around 30th place. All those huge healthcare expenditures in the US is just lining the pockets of doctors, medical companies, and pharma companies.
If option a is I pay for health care myself and I get better quality care and option b is the government pays for health care but I get worse quality care. I'm going for option a.
 
Oct 26, 2018
2,941
2,249
440
If option a is I pay for health care myself and I get better quality care and option b is the government pays for health care but I get worse quality care. I'm going for option a.
Assuming you can afford it.

Not everyone can.

But I totally get it though. The US is a country of every man for himself. If that means great gaps between rich and poor, mansions on one side of town and ghettos in the other, and some people have money to get great healthcare, while someone who is broke with no good employee benefits hasn't been able to afford important medical care throughout his entire life, that's the American Way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kenpachii

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
4,192
4,516
785
I don't ever have to wait to see a doctor or a specialist. In both articles I presented, patients of socialized medicine are having to wait weeks for a doctor and oftentimes months to see a specialist. Also, in Spain and Japan, it seems the costs are rising so fast that the level of care is suffering. And it definitely isn't limited to those countries. Italy, Greece and Portugal have had to introduce participation fees to offset the costs. These plans to cover everybody while people pay little are unsustainable. And many of us are preaching that this is the eventual outcome when government is put in charge of it. Government will not fix your healthcare.
No wait times in the us?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2017/03/19/doctor-wait-times-soar-amid-trumpcare-debate/#11d0be7c2e74

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-relationships/patient-wait-times-in-america-9-things-to-know.html

Doesn’t look all that much better here when you look at this study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168851013001759

Again, our costs are astronomical compared to these other countries. Most of it goes to middlemen. We have soaring costs without nationalized healthcare. What do you propose to bring costs in line with other first world nations other than the status quo?
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Off Duty Ninja

Tygeezy

Member
Sep 28, 2018
490
412
220
No wait times in the us?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2017/03/19/doctor-wait-times-soar-amid-trumpcare-debate/#11d0be7c2e74

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-relationships/patient-wait-times-in-america-9-things-to-know.html

Doesn’t look all that much better here when you look at this study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168851013001759

Again, our costs are astronomical compared to these other countries. Most of it goes to middlemen. We have soaring costs without nationalized healthcare. What do you propose to bring costs in line with other first world nations other than the status quo?
I agree that we need to lower the cost of health care while keeping the quality. Anecdotally I don't have to wait long to see my doctor or a specialist. I can be same same day and i've waited less than a week to see a specialist I was referred to. I like my health care plan, I don't want to give that up.
 

juliotendo

Gold Member
Jan 5, 2019
753
1,250
500
Mexico
Assuming you can afford it.

Not everyone can.

But I totally get it though. The US is a country of every man for himself. If that means great gaps between rich and poor, mansions on one side of town and ghettos in the other, and some people have money to get great healthcare, while someone who is broke with no good employee benefits hasn't been able to afford important medical care throughout his entire life, that's the American Way.

“Every man for himself” is what separates a world power like the US from the dime a dozen countries that can not control their own fates and suffer through the common problems of instability every society has outside the US.