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Reddit Compiles Definitive List of All NMS Missing Features/False Marketing +Sources

SomTervo

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Jan 19, 2015
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It's the Molyneux Cycle.

  • Dev makes insanely ambitious promises, media regurgitates uncritically, fans get hyped.
  • Dev fails to deliver, fans are disappointed, media blames dev for overhyping and fans for allowing themselves to get hyped.
  • Dev goes quiet, media gets bored and moves on, most fans resign themselves to enjoying what they can about the game.
  • Wait a few years, repeat.
The media kept that going for about a decade with Molyneux, all the way from Black & White (2001) to Godus (2012), no reason Sean can't expect the same treatment.

A couple of updates/corrections there:
- Molyneux, in one case, did apologise. I think it was for Fable? Like a month after release he came out saying 'Sorry, things didn't make it in, I apologise for talking
- I still think the extent to which Molyneux oversold and exaggerated his games is on another level from Murray. At least the really insane stuff Murray promised (planet sized planets, infinite of them, seamless loading, unique planets and creatures - even if with broad similarities) he actually delivered on. Everything Molyneux promised that was that insane never came to fruition

Fair enough. You just wrote that as if it was a fact. I completely agree. Nobody but their team really knows and we're likely never going to hear the full truth.

Also agreed on the problem. There has been no transparency and it's all just been some obtuse and coy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -ing.

I wrote it as if fact because I think it's way more plausible than 'he was lying'. Like, infinitely more plausible than that. You'd have to be a sociopathic idiot to go on national TV and entirely fabricate things which were never actually planned to be in your game. I still firmly believe the plans and structures were in the works but they got sliced out. There's no way you'd be that specific about what he said.

They've continued to pretend its a thing up through and post release

They haven't commented precisely on it, though, have they? All they said was "Wow, two players are going to meet" (which is a surreal thing to post) and "NMS is not a multiplayer game".

It's fucking shit and possibly misleading communication but I wouldn't say they 'continued to pretend it's a thing'.
 
Sep 1, 2015
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I wrote it as if fact because I think it's way more plausible than 'he was lying'. Like, infinitely more plausible than that. You'd have to be a sociopathic idiot to go on national TV and entirely fabricate things which were never actually planned to be in your game. I still firmly believe the plans and structures were in the works but they got sliced out. There's no way you'd be that specific about what he said.

They haven't commented precisely on it, though, have they? All they said was "Wow, two players are going to meet" (which is a surreal thing to post) and "NMS is not a multiplayer game".

It's fucking shit and possibly misleading communication but I wouldn't say they 'continued to pretend it's a thing'.

 

orthodoxy1095

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Dec 15, 2013
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But you didn't see me going mental in threads like this. The fact is that things change within a game's design all the way up to the 11th hour, and it is often impossible to see what will work or what won't until you get the bigger picture near the end. Rockstar never talked about the drug dealing system in GTA V ever again. It obviously just didn't fit, for whatever reason, and they cut it in the year leading up to release. Arguably just like the multiplayer function in NMS. It's entirely possible (plausible even) that Sean couldn't have known it wouldn't make it in.

Again, the problem is that Murray hasn't clarified anything. That is the big monolithic problem.
I don't really find the idea that a normal dev team can be so close to launch and not know if their game is going to have multiplayer to be convincing. Like shipping boxes with incorrect information speaks to a real shitshow going on behind closed doors.

And like you said anyways, not coming out and clarifying is the big unacceptable thing.
 

Grief.exe

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But we all actually understand that already. That's the thing. We get that things change. Hell, several critical posts on this page alone have started with "we get that things change during development". The problem here is that these changes were not communicated. When you advertise a feature but then remove it, you have the chance to communicate that or not. Communicating would cause some disappointment, but at least consumers would be informed and make purchases based on that. Not communicating it misleads the consumer and can lead to them paying under false premises. The onus on the customer is to be informed, but they cannot be informed about something that was never made public. At that point the onus is on the developer to be truthful and communicate.

That's why must studios don't make this mistake. Telling gamers about features that may or may not make it into the game just sets your self up to a firestorm from people who have no perspective into game development, programming, or business.

This is why must publishers have a dedicated PR department that doesn't deviate from the message. From following Kickstarted games, Early Access games, and No Man's Sky it's increasingly obvious that it's a colossal mistake to share development information with fans. Just keep your mouth shut.

I blame Sean's inexperience, he wasn't ready to be put under the microscope. Hindsight is 20/20 amd he learned a hard lesson for their next endeavor.


I don't really find the idea that a normal dev team can be so close to launch and not know if their game is going to have multiplayer to be convincing. Like shipping boxes with incorrect information speaks to a real shitshow going on behind closed doors.

And like you said anyways, not coming out and clarifying is the big unacceptable thing.

For a guy whose biggest criticism is he talked to much about features that might get cut, his silence screams contractual obligation. Sony is leaning on them
 

SomTervo

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Jan 19, 2015
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Yo.

Yo.

He literally said two different things about the games features right before/after release.

Edit:
Check out @NoMansSky's Tweet: https://twitter.com/NoMansSky/status/762688708764135425?s=09

Check out @NoMansSky's Tweet: https://twitter.com/NoMansSky/status/763270512277594112?s=09

Timestamps. How do they work?

Jack. You're preaching to the converted here. I'm with you that he has been talking shit.

What we're arguing here is semantics. I don't think YOUR narrative fits what Sean has been doing for the last couple of years. I think what he's been doing is bullshit, but I don't think it's lying. I don't think he is actively misleading or giving immediately, presently false information. Those tweets around launch prove nothing - they're basically hot air. It's much more likely that in 1-2 months he'll publish an open letter saying "Our ambition and disorganisation got the better of us and things had to be cut; we're sorry". That's basically what Molyneux said.

Again, those tweets reveal, IMO, a semantic distinction. I think the "not a multiplayer game" line is similar to how one could say 'Journey is not a multiplayer game BUT there may be other players in your playspace'. I.e. multiplayer is a passing aspect, a minor feature. You wouldn't call seeing the ghosts of other players in Dark Souls 'multiplayer'.

But we can't know. That's what's frustrating me about this situation - and again, the main beef we have in this thread is that Hello Games/Sean aren't confirming anything. They're not outright saying 'Yes there is' or 'No there's not'. They're just saying nothing.

The only situation in which the 'Sean is a liar' narrative is true is if Sean comes out saying "We never planned for MP in the first place. All the things I said in these interviews were not true and I knew it. I said all of these things in these interviews because I wanted to get people hyped for my game even if it were lying" or if an email/whistleblower leak reveals as much.

And I really, really doubt that is what will happen, or that it's the case behind this.

Joe Danger 1
Fuck Xbox, PS Rulz!
Sorry xbros! We will give you more content! Xbox Rulz!
Sorry Psbros, we will give you more content than xboys but you have to pay for it all over again

Joe Danger Times 2
See: Joe Danger 1

This is what Sean does. He will say whatever he can to fit the current narrative to sell a product.

I don't see 1. how this is relevant, and 2. how this contradicts anything I'm saying. It's just a different topic.

We know from data mining and packet capture that MP doesn't and probably never existed while we can fuckin find the live "unscripted" E3 showing in the files.

Dude.

Dude.

Stop making excuses for him.

I'm not making any excuses for him. Again, that's YOUR narrative. I'm not giving Sean a free pass here. I'm saying he's in the wrong. We agree on the ends - we just disagree on the means.

No no, dude. Stop. Seriously.

Take it easy, man.

I do live streams of me fumbling through code (hey, you try coding 30 steps ahead in your brain and talk to people in real time and answer questions before all that code in your brain vanishes) because it might help another dev or maybe folks just like seeing that process of making an enemy, animating them and the code that goes behind it. So people can see the process.

Plenty of devs do it right. Then there's this guy. But you have to make excuses? Come the fuck on.

One of the teams I work with do the same thing. Lots of Unreal and C# livestreams. I fully agree with you that not taking this stuff seriously makes the game dev space more toxic and will lead to a lot of trouble for devs if they're not careful with their PR.

Regarding the coding stuff: remember the ambition of the project. This isn't a microgame. No Man's Sky aimed literally for the stars. A developer earlier in this thread pointed out that a lot of the junk Sean was saying sounds like feature creep. That these things seemed like realities when he said them, but that when crunchtime came, they were obviously unrealistic and just bloat, so they were cut.

C'mon, man. Literally the day before, day of, and day after, he was still claiming multiplayer in the game, LOL... Get real!!!

I don't think he was? He hasn't "claimed" multiplayer was in the game sinec 2015 IIRC. As in he hasn't explicitly said "You can see (or play with) other people" since 2015. [Edit: The closest thing is the 'Two players are going to meet today' Tweet but that doesn't really explain anything. It sounds like it means they will physically meet - but if so, why would he say that? Why would he say this if it's not in the game? (Has anyone tried to meet in the game since? I know one of those players was encountering various issues and their experiment was fraught.)]

His communication has danced around the issue around launch, rather than outright saying anything either way.

The GTA example doesn't really work here because that's a very minor feature in one of the most feature-packed games ever released. It's not core to the game at all, just a bit of fluff. A better example would be if Houser said you could travel to Vice City or something like that.

That's ridiculous. NMS's multiplayer function was always - always - touted as a minor feature. Like a passing, optional thing that might happen. If anything the drug dealing economy and system in GTAV was a much bigger feature than NMS's multiplayer.

Well, you can deal with drugs. Take missions to help out the weed store you buy and profit off it. They just nerfed drug dealing like Sean nerfed elements and crafting. Still there, but in a more limited form.

Not the same in any way.

I don't really find the idea that a normal dev team can be so close to launch and not know if their game is going to have multiplayer to be convincing. Like shipping boxes with incorrect information speaks to a real shitshow going on behind closed doors.

And like you said anyways, not coming out and clarifying is the big unacceptable thing.

Yeah, I wish they'd even say "things were tough in the last few months so we had to cut a lot". Even that would be a drop of thirst-quenching fresh water in an shit-filled ocean of scrutiny and doubt and criticism.

I think a big contention here is that we're all calling it 'multiplayer' when, in most cases, Murray didn't really say it was multiplayer. I don't think he ever used that word. Again, from stuff he's described it's likely that it was just like seeing other players' ghosts in Dark Souls. "Shared experience", "more like Journey", etc. That's hardly 'multiplayer'. And that's the sort of thing that would be easy to cut in the last few months before release. We're not talking a full-fledged mode with matchmaking etc.

Of course that could be totally wrong and the 'Can you play with your friends' > 'Yes' thing is evidence to the contrary and still a crock of shit.


Good stuff, Junior.
 
Sep 1, 2015
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Jack. You're preaching to the converted here. I'm with you that he has been talking shit.

What we're arguing here is semantics. I don't think YOUR narrative fits what Sean has been doing for the last couple of years. I think what he's been doing is bullshit, but I don't think it's lying. I don't think he is actively misleading or giving immediately, presently false information. Those tweets around launch prove nothing - they're basically hot air. It's much more likely that in 1-2 months he'll publish an open letter saying "Our ambition and disorganisation got the better of us and things had to be cut; we're sorry". That's basically what Molyneux said.

Again, those tweets reveal, IMO, a semantic distinction. I think the "not a multiplayer game" line is similar to how one could say 'Journey is not a multiplayer game BUT there may be other players in your playspace'. I.e. multiplayer is a passing aspect, a minor feature. You wouldn't call seeing the ghosts of other players in Dark Souls 'multiplayer'.

But we can't know. That's what's frustrating me about this situation - and again, the main beef we have in this thread is that Hello Games/Sean aren't confirming anything. They're not outright saying 'Yes there is' or 'No there's not'. They're just saying nothing.

The only situation in which the 'Sean is a liar' narrative is true is if Sean comes out saying "We never planned for MP in the first place. All the things I said in these interviews were not true and I knew it. I said all of these things in these interviews because I wanted to get people hyped for my game even if it were lying" or if an email/whistleblower leak reveals as much.

And I really, really doubt that is what will happen, or that it's the case behind this.



I don't see 1. how this is relevant, and 2. how this contradicts anything I'm saying. It's just a different topic.



I'm not making any excuses for him. Again, that's YOUR narrative. I'm not giving Sean a free pass here. I'm saying he's in the wrong. We agree on the ends - we just disagree on the means.



Take it easy, man.



One of the teams I work with do the same thing. Lots of Unreal and C# livestreams. I fully agree with you that not taking this stuff seriously makes the game dev space more toxic and will lead to a lot of trouble for devs if they're not careful with their PR.

Regarding the coding stuff: remember the ambition of the project. This isn't a microgame. No Man's Sky aimed literally for the stars. A developer earlier in this thread pointed out that a lot of the junk Sean was saying sounds like feature creep. That these things seemed like realities when he said them, but that when crunchtime came, they were obviously unrealistic and just bloat, so they were cut.



I don't think he was? He hasn't "claimed" multiplayer was in the game sinec 2015 IIRC. As in he hasn't explicitly said "You can see (or play with) other people" since 2015. [Edit: The closest thing is the 'Two players are going to meet today' Tweet but that doesn't really explain anything. It sounds like it means they will physically meet - but if so, why would he say that? Why would he say this if it's not in the game? (Has anyone tried to meet in the game since? I know one of those players was encountering various issues and their experiment was fraught.)]

His communication has danced around the issue around launch, rather than outright saying anything either way.



That's ridiculous. NMS's multiplayer function was always - always - touted as a minor feature. Like a passing, optional thing that might happen. If anything the drug dealing economy and system in GTAV was a much bigger feature than NMS's multiplayer.



Not the same in any way.



Yeah, I wish they'd even say "things were tough in the last few months so we had to cut a lot". Even that would be a drop of thirst-quenching fresh water in an shit-filled ocean of scrutiny and doubt and criticism.

I think a big contention here is that we're all calling it 'multiplayer' when, in most cases, Murray didn't really say it was multiplayer. I don't think he ever used that word. Again, from stuff he's described it's likely that it was just like seeing other players' ghosts in Dark Souls. "Shared experience", "more like Journey", etc. That's hardly 'multiplayer'. And that's the sort of thing that would be easy to cut in the last few months before release. We're not talking a full-fledged mode with matchmaking etc.

Of course that could be totally wrong and the 'Can you play with your friends' > 'Yes' thing is evidence to the contrary and still a crock of shit.



Good stuff, Junior.

The fact that you completely disregard all of that facts says everything, man.
 

Jacksinthe

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May 26, 2014
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I will just end it and say we agree to disagree.

A couple of times is misspeaking. A couple of times is misleading. This is what you see.

What I see is a pattern that spans 3 games and this one being the mast egregious.

A few times? Ok. Check your shit.

A pattern? This is you. This is you flat out lying to people to upsell your shit on multiple occasions spanning multiple games spanning YEARS of public relations.
 

SomTervo

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Jan 19, 2015
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The fact that you completely disregard all of that facts says everything, man.

No facts have been presented to me about NMS. The tweets aren't facts. They're hot air - potentially misleading, arbitrary, confusing and frustrating hot air - but just hot air. They aren't absolute confirmation or denial of anything. They're vaguely worded or obtuse in every case.

The stuff he described in earlier interviews which haven't come to fruition are highly problematic - but the bigger problem, again, is that he hasn't faced them or owned up to them.

He said "Yes you can play with your friends" in 2015. At that time, he might have been telling the truth. We literally can't know until he/someone confirms either way.

Perhaps in the build they had running you could meet people in-game. But for whatever reason, it's not true in the release build. Again see my GTA V example - they said a feature would be in the game, then a year later, it wasn't. This happens all the time. It's a common reality of game development.

This is really frustrating because just two days ago everyone in the thread was saying the same thing as me. The whole "the real problem is he's not communicating" thing - which IS the real problem. But now none of those people are about and you guys are too busy pitchforking to actually listen to what I'm saying.
 

orthodoxy1095

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Dec 15, 2013
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I will just end it and say we agree to disagree.

A couple of times is misspeaking. A couple of times is misleading. This is what you see.

What I see is a pattern that spans 3 games and this one being the mast egregious.

A few times? Ok. Check your shit.

A pattern? This is you. This is you flat out lying to people to upsell your shit on multiple occasions spanning multiple games spanning YEARS of public relations.
I'm not totally comfortable declaring for sure that he's lying.

But that said, I agree with the thesis about quantity. A feature or two mentioned once would be a mistake. Developing a history and pattern of doing this is something else.
 

SomTervo

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Jan 19, 2015
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I will just end it and say we agree to disagree.

A couple of times is misspeaking. A couple of times is misleading. This is what you see.

What I see is a pattern that spans 3 games and this one being the mast egregious.

A few times? Ok. Check your shit.

A pattern? This is you. This is you flat out lying to people to upsell your shit on multiple occasions spanning multiple games spanning YEARS of public relations.

You might be totally right, man. It could be he's a real piece of work - a true manipulator and, indeed, a liar. But having seen the same thing happen with other devs (again, my Rockstar example) I think it's way more plausible it's just the game's design landscape changing and him failing to tell us that.

In any case, I believe we'll find out in due course. Press Sneak Fuck already wrote a really great article about it - and if he's just one journalist analysing the situation, I'm sure others are already digging. I'm sure will get an answer sooner or later.

I'm not totally comfortable declaring for sure that he's lying.

But that said, I agree with the thesis about quantity. A feature or two mentioned once would be a mistake. Developing a history and pattern of doing this is something else.

It is a bit unsettling - the Joe Danger situation sounds very different though. No game features/mechanics were involved IIRC, just DLC basically right?
 
May 22, 2013
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Technically, saying the only way to know how you look is by asking another player seeing you is true. The other player cannot exist in the game (because there's no multiplayer), but hey, it's not lying.
 
Sep 1, 2015
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No facts have been presented to me about NMS. The tweets aren't facts. They're hot air - potentially misleading, arbitrary, confusing and frustrating hot air - but just hot air. They aren't absolute confirmation or denial of anything. They're vaguely worded or obtuse in every case.

The stuff he described in earlier interviews which haven't come to fruition are highly problematic - but the bigger problem, again, is that he hasn't faced them or owned up to them.

He said "Yes you can play with your friends" in 2015. At that time, he might have been telling the truth. We literally can't know until he/someone confirms either way.

Perhaps in the build they had running you could meet people in-game. But for whatever reason, it's not true in the release build. Again see my GTA V example - they said a feature would be in the game, then a year later, it wasn't. This happens all the time. It's a common reality of game development.

This is really frustrating because just two days ago everyone in the thread was saying the same thing as me. The whole "the real problem is he's not communicating" thing - which IS the real problem. But now none of those people are about and you guys are too busy pitchforking to actually listen to what I'm saying.

Here is a yummy morsel for you to chew on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuz3WETd4ug or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVrDaudzn64

All that I can say is that if I were one of his coworkers, being pissed would be an incredible understatement!
 

SomTervo

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Here is a yummy morsel for you to chew on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuz3WETd4ug

Yeah, it's ridiculous they haven't owned up to a lot of this stuff. The lack of simulation when they said it was in there is ridiculous. Hacking. Ship docking. Etc.

But as has been re-tread time and time again, at the time of him saying that it might have been true. Rumours from the end of 2015 were that they were struggling to get the game to run on PS4. It's highly, highly likely a lot of these things were actually present in the game at some stage. Games change all the time.

The problem is that he hasn't mentioned it.

On other things:

Was the E3 stuff actually definitive? That they had a unique build for the planet? Pretty bad but I can imagine getting cold feet.

Also quite a few of the things in that video are actually in the game. FYI. I've seen all that ship variety personally.

All that I can say is that if I were one of his coworkers, being pissed would be an incredible understatement!

Honestly I will not be surprised if one of them whistleblows on the development of the game big-time. A lot like the big Destiny watershed.
 

LordRaptor

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Aug 20, 2015
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I blame Sean's inexperience, he wasn't ready to be put under the microscope. Hindsight is 20/20 amd he learned a hard lesson for their next endeavor.

I think this is probably true.
I do question why people were apparently expecting a Star Citizen killer from the studio that made Joe Danger though.
 

cyress8

Banned
Oct 11, 2014
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Not the same in any way.
My post was only to show how some of the fans of NMS act about things being in the game. "Its in the game, so I got what I was sold." Even if it is some watered down mechanics. I really would have loved a minecraftish type of crafting.

Really just dicking around with that statment of yours and just having a little fun with it.
 

orthodoxy1095

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Dec 15, 2013
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It is a bit unsettling - the Joe Danger situation sounds very different though. No game features/mechanics were involved IIRC, just DLC basically right?
I think that in retrospect, I should have more strongly associated with the way Sean talked about Joe Danger DLC with the way he talked about No Man's Sky.

I don't remember specific feature issues. I remember him not seeing to have any idea how to talk to platform owners without giving off bad messaging vibes.

I appreciate that he was new at handling his own messaging, but the amateur angle is also still a bit much for me. The guy worked at other studios, notably EA, so I find it hard to believe that he has no concept of how to control a message and why you should do it.
 

SomTervo

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Jan 19, 2015
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Sean Murray/HG hasn't acknowledged any of this still, right?

Nipes.

Not as far as I am aware. They did deflect though with their comments on "Less than 1% of users reported a problem" nonsense.

Really? Oh, man, haha. That's rough. Source?

My post was only to show how some of the fans of NMS act about things being in the game. "Its in the game, so I got what I was sold." Even if it is some watered down mechanics. I really would have loved a minecraftish type of crafting.

Really just dicking around with that statment of yours and just having a little fun with it.

Fair play man, sorry.

HG is already hard at work making No Man's Sky 2 with all of the things they promised in the first one.

Oh, it's not quite Destiny yet :p I was equally excited for both games and equally read everything I could about both of them and honestly Destiny delivered infinitely less than what it promised compared to NMS, for me. Most disappointing game I've ever played. Was like a gut punch a few hours in.

I think that in retrospect, I should have more strongly associated with the way Sean talked about Joe Danger DLC with the way he talked about No Man's Sky.

I don't remember specific feature issues. I remember him not seeing to have any idea how to talk to platform owners without giving off bad messaging vibes.

I appreciate that he was new at handling his own messaging, but the amateur angle is also still a bit much for me. The guy worked at other studios, notably EA, so I find it hard to believe that he has no concept of how to control a message and why you should do it.

He worked at other studios but just in a developer capacity IIRC. He was lead game designer on Black I think? He's a programmer and designer first and foremost.

Moving from a role like that right into stakeholder management, PR, high-end project management... It's a different ballgame.
 

Ripenen

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That's ridiculous. NMS's multiplayer function was always - always - touted as a minor feature. Like a passing, optional thing that might happen. If anything the drug dealing economy and system in GTAV was a much bigger feature than NMS's multiplayer.

Ah OK I apologize, I didn't realize this discussion was only about multiplayer. I thought it was still about All NMS Missing Features/False Marketing.
 

SomTervo

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Jan 19, 2015
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Ah OK I apologize, I didn't realize this discussion was only about multiplayer. I thought it was still about All NMS Missing Features/False Marketing.

The only big things missing from the game are: "multiplayer" and the in-depth simulation of star systems (eg orbits, rotation). Everything else are more minor mechanics like hacking and ship-to-ship docking. Which obviously are still important, but are also still minor. Even "multiplayer" was arguably a minor mechanic as far as they described it, and the simulation stuff is background rather than intrinsic to the experience.

I'm not trying to downplay what Sean or Hello have been doing that's problematic - but the GTA V example is an exact parallel with what has happened here. Arguably an entire missing economy simulation and missing set of game mechanics between what was stated in 2012 and the release in 2013.
 

belvedere

Junior Butler
Jun 2, 2006
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Someone who bought the game. You are completely justified in calling out a product that wasn't what it was advertised to be. Hell, even if you didn't buy the game you would be.

Whether or not you are enjoying the game despite that (and that's all well and good for you) doesn't change the fact that it is wrong. Whether it was a straight up lie or an unintentional miscommunication, not being honest about your product is bullshit.

I'd like to preface my opinion with the fact that I went into a semi-media black out for this title, as I wanted a fresh experience with the game. Clearly I may be in the minority. This viewpoint is my own and doesn't mean other people's experiences are "wrong". This is simply how I feel regarding the game and my expectations.

I haven't scrutinized every single comment Sean has made regarding the game over the last few years, so I can't cite many specific examples, but I don't recall anything that has completely betrayed my expectations. Multiplayer is the first obvious feature that comes to mind, but when I heard there may be a multiplayer component, I never expected it to be a primary focus in the game, and I don't recall it ever being promised or promoted that way. That's just one example and again, I haven't read every comment made regarding multiplayer, but from what I recall it was said there would be multiplayer. I don't recall any specifics being mentioned other than "playing with a friend" or something similar.

So how do I feel after knowing the game doesn't ship with "multiplayer"? Slightly disappointed I guess, but I never had much in the way of expectations for it anyway, as there were never any details given. Not to mention, it's been said repeatedly content such as this may make its way into the game in the near future. "Multiplayer" was never the main selling point for this game for me, and why would it be? If we're suggesting that we've all been lied to there should be evidence of this in the way the title has been marketed - yet, I don't see any of these misleading lies represented in trailers or demonstrations to the masses.

I can't speak for the game some of you thought you were buying, but the game I thought I was buying told me exactly what it was over the last few years and even specifically in three separate launch trailers - a space sim focusing on exploration, combat and trading. (For me) NMS has met those expectations in every way. That said, I agree the title deserves some of the criticism described in the thread, just not the conspiracy laden, speculative hyperbole also present.

If we're going to hold Sean/HG to every sentence they've ever uttered regarding the game, maybe we should keep that in mind regarding upcoming content that may address some of these concerns.

TL;DR - As someone with admittedly less exposure to every detail of the game during development, my expectations for a space sim focusing on exploration, combat and trading were met. NMS could be a much better title if some of the content that was "promised" makes its way into the game via future content updates.
 

SomTervo

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TL;DR - As someone with admittedly less exposure to every detail of the game during development, my expectations for a space sim focusing on exploration, combat and trading were met. NMS could be a much better title if some of the content that was "promised" makes its way into the game via future content updates.

This is important. The bolded is what Murray said the most about the game, it's the thing he repeated constantly. An infinite universe where you explore, survive and trade. That is probably 80% of what he harped on about and the game absolutely delivered on that.

It's still awful that there's been so much uncommunication and potential lies about the game, but I still think it 90% delivered on what it promised.

What it promised just maybe wasn't executed amazingly anyway.
 

TheCanisDirus

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Sep 10, 2013
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The only big things missing from the game are: "multiplayer" and the in-depth simulation of star systems (eg orbits, rotation). Everything else are more minor mechanics like hacking and ship-to-ship docking. Which obviously are still important, but are also still minor. Even "multiplayer" was arguably a minor mechanic as far as they described it, and the simulation stuff is background rather than intrinsic to the experience.

I'm not trying to downplay what Sean or Hello have been doing that's problematic - but the GTA V example is an exact parallel with what has happened here. Arguably an entire missing economy simulation and missing set of game mechanics between what was stated in 2012 and the release in 2013.

A HUGE missing part is an actual universe. The game just rearranges our relatively (comparatively) small playspace and skybox of a few planets and fake sun/star each time we "warp". We cant actually fly to the center of the universe because it doesn't exist in the game. Murry also said that we could fly from system to system but nobody had done that yet, presumably because it would take a really long time.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Jan 9, 2013
26,118
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TL;DR - As someone with admittedly less exposure to every detail of the game during development, my expectations for a space sim focusing on exploration, combat and trading were met. NMS could be a much better title if some of the content that was "promised" makes its way into the game via future content updates.

Besides totally missing the point of this thread, your conclusion is also wrong.

It's not a space sim, it's a game taking place in an arcade-like space.

It's not focused on exploration and combat, it's focused on resource gathering and survival.

And beign ignorant about a subject is not something to brag about.
 

SomTervo

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The game just rearranges our relatively (comparatively) small playspace and skybox of a few planets and fake sun/star each time we "warp".

Um... No it doesn't? Each planet is rendered by the engine uniquely, and the engine reads from the procedural generation algorithm's output. Each planet is built in a unique position and is unique. Just saying they're 'rearranged' is disingenuous.

A HUGE missing part is an actual universe. The game just rearranges our relatively (comparatively) small playspace and skybox of a few planets and fake sun/star each time we "warp". We cant actually fly to the center of the universe because it doesn't exist in the game. Murry also said that we could fly from system to system but nobody had done that yet, presumably because it would take a really long time.

Yes,
- the space between stars is skybox
- the sun is skybox
- planets don't move or rotate

Which is very disappointing, but none of these impact the gameplay. In gameplay terms, it's not huge at all. The only thing that matters to gameplay is being able to fly between planets naturally and warp to new systems. And you can do that. That will be why they cut the inter-system space, etc.
 

Jimrpg

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I blame Sean's inexperience, he wasn't ready to be put under the microscope. Hindsight is 20/20 amd he learned a hard lesson for their next endeavor.




For a guy whose biggest criticism is he talked to much about features that might get cut, his silence screams contractual obligation. Sony is leaning on them

Oh for heavens sake, I'm not a developer and even I know not to bullshit to fans.

And I don't agree with Sony being the culprit in all of this. They are probably just as angry at Sean as the fans are. If Sony was the "boss" and hello games has mismanaged the message, Sony would be pissed off.

Hello games is the publisher and Sony is just the distributor. Full responsibility is with Hello Games. That's why Sony has been tight lipped because it's not for them to comment on.

Lying to customers to the extent Hello Games has is not the norm.
 

Axiology

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Jan 19, 2012
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There seems to be a big issue about whether it's fair to say that Sean Murray lied, as if somehow calling him a liar is some massive critique on his character as opposed to acknowledging something he did

You don't have to be scared to use the word! He could be a perfectly nice guy when he's not on camera, I don't really know. But when he says:

"The physics of every other game—it’s faked. When you’re on a planet, you’re surrounded by a skybox—a cube that someone has painted stars or clouds onto. If there is a day to night cycle, it happens because they are slowly transitioning between a series of different boxes... Our day to night cycle is happening because the planet is rotating on its axis as it spins around the sun. There is real physics to that."

in an article 5 months before the game goes gold and doesn't even once mention that that stuff was removed, he's a liar. It makes far more sense than all the qualifiers you have to put on the term to make everything sync up in your head.

Edit: Also, people are disregarding incentive, which is a good reason to "lie" whenever it's a factor.

Before launch: *Sean's all over the place, drumming up preorder sales*
After launch: *Not a peep about the massive controversies, Sean only shows up to talk about patches*
 

belvedere

Junior Butler
Jun 2, 2006
9,148
1
0
Besides totally missing the point of this thread, your conclusion is also wrong.

It's not a space sim, it's a game taking place in an arcade-like space.

It's not focused on exploration and combat, it's focused on resource gathering and survival.

And beign ignorant about a subject is not something to brag about.

You're honestly suggesting exploration isn't a key pillar of the game?

I can't comment on your other points as you've reconstructed a completely incomprehensible version of them. Until you understand them, I can't elaborate further.
 

Trilobit

Member
Jun 15, 2015
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189
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TL;DR - As someone with admittedly less exposure to every detail of the game during development, my expectations for a space sim focusing on exploration, combat and trading were met. NMS could be a much better title if some of the content that was "promised" makes its way into the game via future content updates.

Let me give you a simile:
You buy a new Volvo. It has the performance, speed and space that was promised in its marketing videos. You feel content.

Other people saw the promo videos where a blu-ray headrest mount was promised to be included in the purchase. Not a main thing, but something to make it a better deal. But it wasn't there and you think "ok, not the whole world, but I wonder why it wasn't there. I better call them to know what's happened."

Your message is received and you see this answer on Volvo's twitter: "Wow, someone has already tried out the backseat of their new Volvo. Incredible!" And nothing more. Perhaps you wait a day to know what's happened. Total silence. What began only as an annoyance suddenly starts to feel like a con.

Those are the two main points of view I've seen in this thread.
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Mar 26, 2007
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You guys should make a game sometime! Its completely normal to say "we want to do this, were planning to do this, this part is already working" and then not being able to deliver for a million reasons. Maybe the feature was too heavy on the performance, maybe you didnt have enough time, maybe making games is really hard.

Did Sean Murray sin for being too open with the community? Yes, he obviously did, this is why developers usually dont say shit to the fans, because this can happen. No game ever ships perfect, finished and with all the features it "promised" or planned to release with, it just doesnt happen.
 

belvedere

Junior Butler
Jun 2, 2006
9,148
1
0
This is important. The bolded is what Murray said the most about the game, it's the thing he repeated constantly. An infinite universe where you explore, survive and trade. That is probably 80% of what he harped on about and the game absolutely delivered on that.

It's still awful that there's been so much uncommunication and potential lies about the game, but I still think it 90% delivered on what it promised.

What it promised just maybe wasn't executed amazingly anyway.

Right, the core components described by Murray are what the game offers today. There are other facets of these core components promised that aren't in the game yet, or will never make it into the game. That's definitely disappointing, but to me they don't completely undermine the core focus of the game.
 

Axiology

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Jan 19, 2012
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You guys should make a game sometime! Its completely normal to say "we want to do this, were planning to do this, this part is already working" and then not being able to deliver for a million reasons. Maybe the feature was too heavy on the performance, maybe you didnt have enough time, maybe making games is really hard.

Did Sean Murray sin for being too open with the community? Yes, he obviously did, this is why developers usually dont say shit to the fans, because this can happen. No game ever ships perfect, finished and with all the features it "promised" or planned to release with, it just doesnt happen.

People are so determined to mischaracterize the issue people are having with Sean Murray's conduct, it's ridiculous. So here's yet another reiteration of a very basic point: "We want to do this, were planning to do this, this part is already working" is perfectly normal to say. It's not normal to say "our game is going to have X", then be cagey whenever anyone asks you about it, never mention that it was removed, and never acknowledge questions about where it went after launch. If you accept such conduct with open arms, you're asking to get shit on.

And the issue, yet again, is not that he was too open. There are many developers I'm currently following right now and that I've followed in the past who are extremely open about their games and there's no problem because they're honest. That's the issue, honesty-- not "openness."
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Jun 7, 2004
19,552
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Even if NMS isn't supposed to be a hardcore space sim - and that's fine, it's something I like about the game - there are reasons some things are done within the genre because that makes it interesting. You could greatly simplify the typical level of complexity in exploration and strategy sims, and still end up with something meatier than NMS in its current state. I say this as someone who is having fun with the game even while being disappointed; it's -really- shallow and cursory in its execution of a lot of fundamental concepts of the genres it borrows from.

And even then that wouldn't be quite so much a problem if other aspects of the game that were meant to give it other kinds of texture, were also not pared down or removed.
 
Jun 2, 2013
17,360
0
440
You guys should make a game sometime! Its completely normal to say "we want to do this, were planning to do this, this part is already working" and then not being able to deliver for a million reasons. Maybe the feature was too heavy on the performance, maybe you didnt have enough time, maybe making games is really hard.

Did Sean Murray sin for being too open with the community? Yes, he obviously did, this is why developers usually dont say shit to the fans, because this can happen. No game ever ships perfect, finished and with all the features it "promised" or planned to release with, it just doesnt happen.

What if the developer confirms existence of a feature up to and including the day of launch, and then it turns out the feature isn't in the game and perhaps never existed in the first place?
 

Par Score

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Dec 6, 2014
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"The physics of every other game—it’s faked. When you’re on a planet, you’re surrounded by a skybox—a cube that someone has painted stars or clouds onto. If there is a day to night cycle, it happens because they are slowly transitioning between a series of different boxes... Our day to night cycle is happening because the planet is rotating on its axis as it spins around the sun. There is real physics to that."

This needs to be on every damn page.

Calling out other hardworking developers as fakers while lauding your own game's "real physics" only 5 months before launch, only for all of that to be proven bullshit, is worse than lying to me.

It would be needlessly antagonistic if true, not every game needs to be (or would want to be) a perfect physical simulation, but as it isn't even true that just makes it a mendacious smear in my eyes.
 
Sep 1, 2015
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Michigan
This needs to be on every damn page.

Calling out other hardworking developers as fakers while lauding your own game's "real physics" only 5 months before launch, only for all of that to be proven bullshit, is worse than lying to me.

It would be needlessly antagonistic if true, not ever game needs to be (or would want to be) a perfect physical simulation, but as it isn't even true that just makes it a mendacious smear in my eyes.

For sure. His arrogance is thick and disgusting.

Now he is off hiding in a hole somewhere counting everyone's money like a dickhead...

What is hilarious was the Tweet where he talked about customer service yet he actually refuses to answer the important questions or own up to his current and past statements.
 

Alebrije

Member
Feb 25, 2010
10,045
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You guys should make a game sometime! Its completely normal to say "we want to do this, were planning to do this, this part is already working" and then not being able to deliver for a million reasons. Maybe the feature was too heavy on the performance, maybe you didnt have enough time, maybe making games is really hard.

Did Sean Murray sin for being too open with the community? Yes, he obviously did, this is why developers usually dont say shit to the fans, because this can happen. No game ever ships perfect, finished and with all the features it "promised" or planned to release with, it just doesnt happen.

It's different to being to open vs being a lier. Every time a direct question was made to Sean he answered very sure that X feature will be on the game.

Again it's no about to be Indie , do not have PR experience or being open , its just about being honest.
 

Moreche

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Mar 28, 2015
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I've been playing this game with my son and while we were enjoying it, my son asked me today after arriving on our third system why do all the buildings, monuments and space stations look the same?
It then dawned on me, what's the point of all of this? When the main hook is discovery where is the cohesion in all of this.
I try to like it but there's just far to many good games out and coming soon to pump any more time into this.
Game and save deleted, I have no more faith than the devs can save this game.
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Mar 26, 2007
15,868
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People are so determined to mischaracterize the issue people are having with Sean Murray's conduct, it's ridiculous. So here's yet another reiteration of a very basic point: "We want to do this, were planning to do this, this part is already working" is perfectly normal to say. It's not normal to say "our game is going to have X", then be cagey whenever anyone asks you about it, never mention that it was removed, and never acknowledge questions about where it went after launch. If you accept such conduct with open arms, you're asking to get shit on.

And the issue, yet again, is not that he was too open. There are many developers I'm currently following right now and that I've followed in the past who are extremely open about their games and there's no problem because they're honest. That's the issue, honesty-- not "openness."

Create a AAA game with a small team of 15 core people (300 being the norm) over the period of 4 years with incredible pressure from fans. Pressure that is even visually noticeable. Your company is on the line, your dreams of making the game you wanted to make as a kid are on the line and everytime you have a chance to talk to fans you cant help but let shit slip. You are a game maker, not a public speaker, hell, its noticeable everytime you have to make a presentation at E3 that youre not comfortable selling things to people. Its probably not lying, these are things you want to put in your game, or maybe the pressure is so fucking constant, the avalanche of tweets, comments, forum posts, interview questions so incredibly overwhelming that you say the wrong thing, or you say what will allow the onslaught of shit coming your way to stop, even if its for a week.

You can sit and say hes a liar, that he has nefarious intentions in order to sell a videogame ... and you may be right, but, to me, this is just the result of wanting to please people, so maybe its not a case of evil developer hiding shit and maybe its that making games is really, really hard and we could all use a bit more empathy when it comes to micromanaging everything a developer has ever said.
 

OraleeWey

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Jul 23, 2014
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Is it possible to fly in the atmosphere in your ship freely on any planet ?

If the answer is "no", I'm going to be even more disappointed :(
 

Alebrije

Member
Feb 25, 2010
10,045
2,173
1,135
I've been playing this game with my son and while we were enjoying it, my son asked me today after arriving on our third system why do all the buildings, monuments and space stations look the same?
It then dawned on me, what's the point of all of this? When the main hook is discovery where is the cohesion in all of this.
I try to like it but there's just far to many good games out and coming soon to pump any more time into this.
Game and save deleted, I have no more faith than the devs can save this game.

This was something predictable , how do you manage to put culture and different civilizations on millions of planets on a procedural seed?

The game is simple because otherwise would be a chaos ..

Get your point , it seems that the Korvax and other races hired the same contractor to build their stations and they look the same just with small changes

For me the only feature that saves then game is the sence of discovery every time you land on a new planet and see the landscape ,flora and fauna, but after that every planet is basically the same and a lot of people won't like that .
 

KKRT00

Member
Feb 13, 2011
14,456
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Create a AAA game with a small team of 15 core people (300 being the norm) over the period of 4 years with incredible pressure from fans. Pressure that is even visually noticeable. Your company is on the line, your dreams of making the game you wanted to make as a kid are on the line and everytime you have a chance to talk to fans you cant help but let shit slip. You are a game maker, not a public speaker, hell, its noticeable everytime you have to make a presentation at E3 that youre not comfortable selling things to people. Its probably not lying, these are things you want to put in your game, or maybe the pressure is so fucking constant, the avalanche of tweets, comments, forum posts, interview questions so incredibly overwhelming that you say the wrong thing, or you say what will allow the onslaught of shit coming your way to stop, even if its for a week.

You can sit and say hes a liar, that he has nefarious intentions in order to sell a videogame ... and you may be right, but, to me, this is just the result of wanting to please people, so maybe its not a case of evil developer hiding shit and maybe its that making games is really, really hard and we could all use a bit more empathy when it comes to micromanaging everything a developer has ever said.
When you are saying with freaking straight face for 3 years to the press that night/day cycle is finally properly simulated, especially mentioning how other games fake it, by rotation of the planets, you are lying, because its not even implemented, its faked to the core.

---
This needs to be on every damn page.

Calling out other hardworking developers as fakers while lauding your own game's "real physics" only 5 months before launch, only for all of that to be proven bullshit, is worse than lying to me.

It would be needlessly antagonistic if true, not ever game needs to be (or would want to be) a perfect physical simulation, but as it isn't even true that just makes it a mendacious smear in my eyes.

Fully agree.
 

Gator86

Member
Jun 23, 2013
7,835
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0
There seems to be a big issue about whether it's fair to say that Sean Murray lied, as if somehow calling him a liar is some massive critique on his character as opposed to acknowledging something he did

You don't have to be scared to use the word! He could be a perfectly nice guy when he's not on camera, I don't really know. But when he says:

"The physics of every other game—it’s faked. When you’re on a planet, you’re surrounded by a skybox—a cube that someone has painted stars or clouds onto. If there is a day to night cycle, it happens because they are slowly transitioning between a series of different boxes... Our day to night cycle is happening because the planet is rotating on its axis as it spins around the sun. There is real physics to that."

in an article 5 months before the game goes gold and doesn't even once mention that that stuff was removed, he's a liar. It makes far more sense than all the qualifiers you have to put on the term to make everything sync up in your head.

Edit: Also, people are disregarding incentive, which is a good reason to "lie" whenever it's a factor.

Before launch: *Sean's all over the place, drumming up preorder sales*
After launch: *Not a peep about the massive controversies, Sean only shows up to talk about patches*

100% intentions don't matter. As a consumer, why should anyone care about the pressure he was under? He's asking people to give him $60 for a thing he knows doesn't exist. That's gross regardless of his fragile emotional state.

And you're absolutely right on that quote. It's Molyneux all over again. He was claiming that they were redesigning their periodic table to affect the way light retracts in the atmosphere. That's horseshit. None of that exists. There's no physics. There's no light refracting against particles in the environment. Dude made up a bunch of shit to sell his game. Period.