SOFTWARE
Wii Sports did as much to sell the Wii as the Wiimote did. A gimmick won't do much if they don't have good software to back it up. Similarly if they come up with appealing software and no gimmicks, people will buy it.
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Reddit [verified] User shares NX info: x86 Architecture, Second screen support etc.
- Thread starter DaSorcerer7
- Start date
- Status
SOFTWARE
Wii Sports did as much to sell the Wii as the Wiimote did. A gimmick won't do much if they don't have good software to back it up. Similarly if they come up with appealing software and no gimmicks, people will buy it.
Yes but Wii Sports was ONLY a success due to motion controls.
wonderful103
Member
It would be hilarious for The NX to have a Steamroller CPU, simply because 4 of those is what the PS4 and XB1 originally had before switching to 8 Jaguars (Steamroller was... not a good bet at the time for various reasons)
Or if their current kits are PCs, because you don't get a PC with 8GB of GDDR5.
12GB in a dev kit means that the console will likely have 8GB of ram in the end. 3GB for the OS would put it in a similar light to the PS4 and XB1 which eat around that amount.
That's if you believe any of it. Which you shouldn't.
The Wii U had great games, yet they didn't help the Wii U turn things around. Great software can only go so far.
geordiemp
Member
Or they could spend a bit more and go with proper Video RAM such as Gddr5 (standard) or Gddr5x (2016 new Graphics cards), or push the boat out and go with HBM (high end new).
DDR3 does not compute ....at all, its everything that was wrong with XB1 design, or has been quoted already "an ESRAM to the knee", as DDR3 means you have no VRAM and need a big APU chunk for ESRAM....
Its bull, nobody is going to use DDr3 for VRAM in 2016/17 surely ? Its like saying hey, got a posche engine, lets use those tractor tyres.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
Nah, prices have fallen substantially. Not sure if stacked DDR4 is available. They should go with GDDR5X though as performance is better, cost is comparable to GDDR5 and so is the power envelope. Sony showed that this solution is generally preferable.
If it's DDR3 with ESRAM solution, aka the MS route instead, now that would be funny.
Extra large
Papacheeks
Banned
No super cheap in retail so more than likely really cheap right now chip wise for manufacturing.
DDR4 was just starting to come out late 2013-2014, but now it's being pumped out full force.
If they were to go with cheap ram is would be ddr4 which supports PC4 27200.
geordiemp
Member
Yeah, its like lets copy what MS fucked up with the Xb1...This leaker has just dropped himself in it, its bullshit...move along. For gaming ;
HBM >>>>>>> GDDR5X >>>>>>> GDDR5 >>>>>>> DDR4 >>>>>>>>>> DDR3
If Sony is serious about Ps4K they would probably go GDDRX. Nobody is going DDR3, Bet MS will get rid of it if they get a chance with XBox Next.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
If Wii Sports was played with a gamepad everyone would think it's low-effort shovelware trash.
I don't know how anybody would expect an NX home console released this year to have any more than 30% or so more CPU performance than PS4/XBO, let alone getting anywhere near a 125W desktop CPU.
Let's run through the different options Nintendo have open to them for a CPU for a home console releasing this year:
- x86 ISA -
Advantages:
- Large ecosystem of software, compilers, etc., etc.
- Several options which hit performance required for home console
Disadvantages:
- Only two vendors. If they want to create an NX successor with binary BC then Intel and AMD are their only options (unless VIA suddenly starts competing on performance)
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld, which means using two different ISAs for the two devices, which means added cost in tools/OS/etc. development
- No binary-level BC with Wii U
Intel x86 cores:
Advantages:
- Higher end cores hit performance required for home console
Disadvantages:
- Likely more expensive than any other option
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld
Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: No (unless they're crazy enough to use Intel IGP for a game console)
Broadwell, Skylake, etc.
Advantages:
- Probably the highest per-thread performance within a console CPU TDP
- Could be fabbed on 14nm for a 2016 launch
Disadvantages:
- Expensive
- Large die area
- See general Intel and x86 disadvantages above
Airmont (Atom)
Advantages:
- Small die area
- Low power consumption
Disadvantages:
- Lower performance per clock than either Puma or A72
AMD x86 cores:
Advantages:
- Plausible cores at least match performance required for home console (as they're already used in PS4/XBO)
- Should be cheaper than comparable Intel cores
- Nintendo have a longstanding relationship with AMD
Disadvantages:
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld
Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes (but only AMD GPUs)
Puma
Advantages:
- Would slightly outperform Jaguar cores used in PS4 and XBO
- AMD have ample expertise with Puma-based APUs
- Relatively small die area
Disadvantages:
- AMD aren't developing any x86 follow-ups to Puma, making the design of NX2 more difficult
- Likely lower performance than ARM A72 (which is one of the reasons AMD has dropped future development in favour of custom ARM cores)
Excavator
Advantages:
- Better performance per thread than Puma at high TDPs
Disadvantages:
- Power consumption required to get that performance is far, far beyond what's feasible in a console
- Large die area
- Even given the power consumption, performance per thread isn't that good
Zen
Advantages:
- Substantially better performance per thread than Puma
- Should provide high performance per thread even at console-level TDP
Disadvantages:
- Only available on 14nm, which means it's unlikely to be feasible for a 2016 console
- Probably a relatively large die area
- ARMv8 ISA -
Advantages:
- Large ecosystem of software, compilers, etc., etc.
- Several options which hit performance required for home console
- Several options which hit efficiency required for handheld
- Nintendo have a long history of ARM-based devices
- A large number of vendors developing binary-compatible cores across the performance spectrum
Disadvantages:
- Of the available cores, none quite hit the performance of high-end x86 or Power ISA cores
- No binary-level BC with Wii U
ARM in-house cores:
Advantages:
- Can be synthesised on-die with pretty much any GPU architecture
- Higher-end cores hit performance required for home console
- AMD have shown they're happy to work with reference ARM designs
- Relatively cheap
- Nintendo have already designed several SoCs with ARM's in-house cores
Disadvantages:
- No options which quite hit per-thread performance of Skylake/Zen
Synthesizable: Yes
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes
A72
Advantages:
- Should moderately exceed performance of Jaguar on 28nm
- Relatively small die area
- See general ARM advantages above
Disadvantages:
- Not quite the per-thread performance of Skylake/Zen
A53
Advantages:
- Very energy efficient
- Tiny die area
- Could use exactly the same core on the handheld
Disadvantages:
- Doesn't have the per-thread performance necessary for a home console
AMD ARM cores:
K12
Advantages:
- Should exceed performance of Jaguar by a significant margin
- Nintendo have a longstanding relationship with AMD
Disadvantages:
- Won't be ready until 2017
Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes (but only AMD GPUs)
Nvidia ARM cores:
Denver
Advantages:
- Probably exceeds the performance of Jaguar
- Could be integrated in a single die with Nvidia's GPU architecture
Disadvantages:
- Inconsistent benchmarks point to potential issues with dynamic recompilation to internal instruction set
- Nintendo may not have the best relationship with Nvidia, as the 3DS was apparently initially due to use a Tegra SoC, which was then dropped in favour of a custom chip with Pica graphics
Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes (but only Nvidia GPUs)
Other ARM cores (Qualcomm, Samsung, etc.)
Advantages:
- Some offer performance exceeding ARM reference designs
- Some can be fabbed with synthesizable GPUs (eg Mali, PowerVR, etc.) on the same die
Disadvantages:
- Can't be fabbed on-die with AMD or Nvidia desktop-class GPUs
Synthesizable: No (in general)
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes
- Power ISA -
Advantages:
- Nintendo have ample experience with Power ISA
- Could provide binary-level BC with Wii U
- Cores are available which hit performance required for home console (and then some!)
Disadvantages
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld
- Only one vendor actively working on Power cores, and they're not exactly the kind of mid-range cores you'd use in a games console
- No options to fab on the same die as GPU
IBM Power cores:
Advantages:
- Nintendo have a long history of working with IBM
- IBM have been putting out chips on 22nm for a while now
Disadvantages:
- See general Power ISA disadvantages above
Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: No
POWER8
Advantages:
- Massively exceeds performance required for home console
Disadvantages:
- Enormous die area, far too large for a console CPU
- Very high TPD, far too high for a console CPU
- Lot of redundant functionality that's a waste for a console CPU
PowerPC A2
Advantages:
- Should hit performance levels required for a home console
- Relatively small die area
- Relatively power efficient (particularly on 22nm)
- Lots of floating point/SIMD performance
Disadvantages:
- Excessive floating point performance (game consoles don't need an exclusively 64-bit FP pipeline)
- Probably not that great in non-floating point tasks
- While it could technically provide BC with Wii U code, it's a very different architecture to Espresso, so unlikely to be able to run Wii U code at full speed
PowerPC 750
Advantages:
- Same architecture as used in Wii U, so easy and reliable BC
- Small die area
- Relatively energy efficient
Disadvantages:
- A 32-bit core, so system RAM would be limited to 4GB
- Doesn't hit performance levels of Jaguar
- No successors in development, so just pushing the can down the road
- MIPS ISA -
Advantages:
- Em, easier N64 BC perhaps?
Disadvantages:
- More than are worth going into here
Now, I could go further down along the list into obscure ISAs like RISC-V, but we've more than covered every realistic option open to Nintendo.
Based on the above, I think it's safe to rule out all Power ISA cores, as Wii U binary-compatibility can't be worth than much to Nintendo. I think we can also rule out Intel's offerings as well, both due to cost of the chips themselves, and the inability to fab on a single die with the GPU. Similarly I'd rule out all non-reference ARM cores, as they're the only ones which could be included on an SoC with an AMD GPU (which has to be by far the most likely GPU option). Then Excavator can be ruled out for heat and die area, the same reasons Sony and MS ruled out its predecessors, and 14nm is very unlikely to feasible this year, ruling out Zen.
So, we (or more accurately Nintendo) are basically reduced to two options: Puma or A72. Judging by single-core Geekbench 3 32 bit benchmarks (which are unfortunately all I have to work with for both, even enough it will be affected by things like memory configurations), Puma provides about 10% performance per clock boost over Jaguar, and should be able to clock a bit higher in the same thermal envelope (although it's hard to say by how much). At 2GHz, you could expect about a 25% boost over XBO's CPU, for the same number of cores.
The A72 hits 45% higher single-core Geekbench score per clock than Jaguar, and should clock a bit higher as well (they're hitting 1.8GHz in 28nm phone SoCs, so in a console environment we could assume 2GHz at least). A 2GHz 8 core A72 with two cores reserved for the OS would then give developers about 40% more to work with than they have on XBO. (Again this is just on the basis of this one benchmark).
If Nintendo want more performance than that (and given their history, I would be very surprised if they did), then more cores would be pretty much their only answer, although such a route isn't without its difficulties, as developers may struggle to adequately parallelise their code to make proper use of such a CPU.
Let's run through the different options Nintendo have open to them for a CPU for a home console releasing this year:
- x86 ISA -
Advantages:
- Large ecosystem of software, compilers, etc., etc.
- Several options which hit performance required for home console
Disadvantages:
- Only two vendors. If they want to create an NX successor with binary BC then Intel and AMD are their only options (unless VIA suddenly starts competing on performance)
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld, which means using two different ISAs for the two devices, which means added cost in tools/OS/etc. development
- No binary-level BC with Wii U
Intel x86 cores:
Advantages:
- Higher end cores hit performance required for home console
Disadvantages:
- Likely more expensive than any other option
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld
Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: No (unless they're crazy enough to use Intel IGP for a game console)
Broadwell, Skylake, etc.
Advantages:
- Probably the highest per-thread performance within a console CPU TDP
- Could be fabbed on 14nm for a 2016 launch
Disadvantages:
- Expensive
- Large die area
- See general Intel and x86 disadvantages above
Airmont (Atom)
Advantages:
- Small die area
- Low power consumption
Disadvantages:
- Lower performance per clock than either Puma or A72
AMD x86 cores:
Advantages:
- Plausible cores at least match performance required for home console (as they're already used in PS4/XBO)
- Should be cheaper than comparable Intel cores
- Nintendo have a longstanding relationship with AMD
Disadvantages:
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld
Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes (but only AMD GPUs)
Puma
Advantages:
- Would slightly outperform Jaguar cores used in PS4 and XBO
- AMD have ample expertise with Puma-based APUs
- Relatively small die area
Disadvantages:
- AMD aren't developing any x86 follow-ups to Puma, making the design of NX2 more difficult
- Likely lower performance than ARM A72 (which is one of the reasons AMD has dropped future development in favour of custom ARM cores)
Excavator
Advantages:
- Better performance per thread than Puma at high TDPs
Disadvantages:
- Power consumption required to get that performance is far, far beyond what's feasible in a console
- Large die area
- Even given the power consumption, performance per thread isn't that good
Zen
Advantages:
- Substantially better performance per thread than Puma
- Should provide high performance per thread even at console-level TDP
Disadvantages:
- Only available on 14nm, which means it's unlikely to be feasible for a 2016 console
- Probably a relatively large die area
- ARMv8 ISA -
Advantages:
- Large ecosystem of software, compilers, etc., etc.
- Several options which hit performance required for home console
- Several options which hit efficiency required for handheld
- Nintendo have a long history of ARM-based devices
- A large number of vendors developing binary-compatible cores across the performance spectrum
Disadvantages:
- Of the available cores, none quite hit the performance of high-end x86 or Power ISA cores
- No binary-level BC with Wii U
ARM in-house cores:
Advantages:
- Can be synthesised on-die with pretty much any GPU architecture
- Higher-end cores hit performance required for home console
- AMD have shown they're happy to work with reference ARM designs
- Relatively cheap
- Nintendo have already designed several SoCs with ARM's in-house cores
Disadvantages:
- No options which quite hit per-thread performance of Skylake/Zen
Synthesizable: Yes
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes
A72
Advantages:
- Should moderately exceed performance of Jaguar on 28nm
- Relatively small die area
- See general ARM advantages above
Disadvantages:
- Not quite the per-thread performance of Skylake/Zen
A53
Advantages:
- Very energy efficient
- Tiny die area
- Could use exactly the same core on the handheld
Disadvantages:
- Doesn't have the per-thread performance necessary for a home console
AMD ARM cores:
K12
Advantages:
- Should exceed performance of Jaguar by a significant margin
- Nintendo have a longstanding relationship with AMD
Disadvantages:
- Won't be ready until 2017
Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes (but only AMD GPUs)
Nvidia ARM cores:
Denver
Advantages:
- Probably exceeds the performance of Jaguar
- Could be integrated in a single die with Nvidia's GPU architecture
Disadvantages:
- Inconsistent benchmarks point to potential issues with dynamic recompilation to internal instruction set
- Nintendo may not have the best relationship with Nvidia, as the 3DS was apparently initially due to use a Tegra SoC, which was then dropped in favour of a custom chip with Pica graphics
Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes (but only Nvidia GPUs)
Other ARM cores (Qualcomm, Samsung, etc.)
Advantages:
- Some offer performance exceeding ARM reference designs
- Some can be fabbed with synthesizable GPUs (eg Mali, PowerVR, etc.) on the same die
Disadvantages:
- Can't be fabbed on-die with AMD or Nvidia desktop-class GPUs
Synthesizable: No (in general)
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: Yes
- Power ISA -
Advantages:
- Nintendo have ample experience with Power ISA
- Could provide binary-level BC with Wii U
- Cores are available which hit performance required for home console (and then some!)
Disadvantages
- No options which hit energy efficiency required for handheld
- Only one vendor actively working on Power cores, and they're not exactly the kind of mid-range cores you'd use in a games console
- No options to fab on the same die as GPU
IBM Power cores:
Advantages:
- Nintendo have a long history of working with IBM
- IBM have been putting out chips on 22nm for a while now
Disadvantages:
- See general Power ISA disadvantages above
Synthesizable: No
Can be fabbed on-die with the GPU: No
POWER8
Advantages:
- Massively exceeds performance required for home console
Disadvantages:
- Enormous die area, far too large for a console CPU
- Very high TPD, far too high for a console CPU
- Lot of redundant functionality that's a waste for a console CPU
PowerPC A2
Advantages:
- Should hit performance levels required for a home console
- Relatively small die area
- Relatively power efficient (particularly on 22nm)
- Lots of floating point/SIMD performance
Disadvantages:
- Excessive floating point performance (game consoles don't need an exclusively 64-bit FP pipeline)
- Probably not that great in non-floating point tasks
- While it could technically provide BC with Wii U code, it's a very different architecture to Espresso, so unlikely to be able to run Wii U code at full speed
PowerPC 750
Advantages:
- Same architecture as used in Wii U, so easy and reliable BC
- Small die area
- Relatively energy efficient
Disadvantages:
- A 32-bit core, so system RAM would be limited to 4GB
- Doesn't hit performance levels of Jaguar
- No successors in development, so just pushing the can down the road
- MIPS ISA -
Advantages:
- Em, easier N64 BC perhaps?
Disadvantages:
- More than are worth going into here
Now, I could go further down along the list into obscure ISAs like RISC-V, but we've more than covered every realistic option open to Nintendo.
Based on the above, I think it's safe to rule out all Power ISA cores, as Wii U binary-compatibility can't be worth than much to Nintendo. I think we can also rule out Intel's offerings as well, both due to cost of the chips themselves, and the inability to fab on a single die with the GPU. Similarly I'd rule out all non-reference ARM cores, as they're the only ones which could be included on an SoC with an AMD GPU (which has to be by far the most likely GPU option). Then Excavator can be ruled out for heat and die area, the same reasons Sony and MS ruled out its predecessors, and 14nm is very unlikely to feasible this year, ruling out Zen.
So, we (or more accurately Nintendo) are basically reduced to two options: Puma or A72. Judging by single-core Geekbench 3 32 bit benchmarks (which are unfortunately all I have to work with for both, even enough it will be affected by things like memory configurations), Puma provides about 10% performance per clock boost over Jaguar, and should be able to clock a bit higher in the same thermal envelope (although it's hard to say by how much). At 2GHz, you could expect about a 25% boost over XBO's CPU, for the same number of cores.
The A72 hits 45% higher single-core Geekbench score per clock than Jaguar, and should clock a bit higher as well (they're hitting 1.8GHz in 28nm phone SoCs, so in a console environment we could assume 2GHz at least). A 2GHz 8 core A72 with two cores reserved for the OS would then give developers about 40% more to work with than they have on XBO. (Again this is just on the basis of this one benchmark).
If Nintendo want more performance than that (and given their history, I would be very surprised if they did), then more cores would be pretty much their only answer, although such a route isn't without its difficulties, as developers may struggle to adequately parallelise their code to make proper use of such a CPU.
I feel like if DS and 3DS are under the same category, then Wii and Wii U should be. Definitely bizarre
Arguable. It lacked a lot of the mainstream appealing games like Mario64/Galaxy style Mario, or Zelda.
Insane Metal
Member
Really?? Tell me more about it...
Well no shit. The point is that a gimmick alone won't sell the system. If Nintendo is doing a gimmick for the sake of a gimmick and does not have appealing software, it will fail.
Nah, they are definitely two separate groups, as much as NES and SNES. Motion controllers are a big differentiator from a tablet.
DragonKnight
Member
Anyone scoffing at the RAM clearly hasn't been a nintendo fan for very long. They've never skimped on RAM. The wii u had 2x the amount of the ps3/360
Schnozberry
Member
Thraktor, that is an impressive write up. Well done, sir.
I still think it makes the most sense to go with ARM. A72 is mature tech at this point and would offer a performance envelope that makes them competitive.
RAM is a tougher question. Nintendo is predisposed to focus on latency over bandwidth, so I could see them putting HBM on die for the GPU, and having a pool of LPDDR4 for the CPU.
I still think it makes the most sense to go with ARM. A72 is mature tech at this point and would offer a performance envelope that makes them competitive.
RAM is a tougher question. Nintendo is predisposed to focus on latency over bandwidth, so I could see them putting HBM on die for the GPU, and having a pool of LPDDR4 for the CPU.
I actually can see them doing something similar to what you're suggesting.
I only said 8GB was a safe amount because it'll give them the edge (just a little) compared to PS4. Future-proofing itself so to speak.
4-6GB dedicated for games and 2GB entirely for the OS (if it's highly optimized)
Not a big jump from the competition but comfortable enough for what developers might throw at it.
Fourth Storm
Member
Megapost by Thraktor. Well done, man. I agree with your conclusions. It's either Puma or A72 logically for an AMD build this year.
Schnozberry
Member
A72 could hit 2.5ghz+ at 14nm, so that would be ideal.
MatrixMan.EXE
Member
Eh, that wasn't really difficult to do 7 years after those systems came out. I'd be shocked if Wii U had come out with anything less than 1GB RAM in 2012.
That said, I don't think that it's that unbelievable. Just not sure if it makes sense if they want to keep costs down. I'm not even sure there's any need for that much. It's the CPU and GPU they need to get right, first and foremost.
geordiemp
Member
We are laughing at the reddit leaker as DDR3 is not Video RAM for HD gaming, its only used for basic memory nowadays.
Its not the 12 or 8 or 6, its the wrong type of RAM.
So it does not make sense unless its DDR3 + some other video memory not mentioned (or like Xb1 with memory on the main APU which MS have struggled with and the butt of allot of ESRAM jokes).
Hoax leakers should at least make the stuff credible.
DragonKnight
Member
Good. Ill have coro coro and dark souls to hold me over
What timeframe did he say? Now Nintendo's in their new Fiscal year a Direct/NX Reveal could happen any day now.
EDIT: Well I'm dumb. Maybe I should have read the updates first!
ZeroMaverick
Member
Nintendo Extra is a stupid name.
DeployThatPizza
Member
What timeframe did he specify? Also, the mods on reddit said his info threw up red flags so they aren't verifying him.
Edit: saw it in the newest update.
Schnozberry
Member
No, he's full of shit. There is no feasible way to use architectural magic make up for massive bandwidth deficiencies.
Nintendo could go with DDR3, but they would do so knowing that they weren't trying to match the performance of the PS4.
Aaronrules380
Member
Beyond that, it might be possible if the indie was being featured in said direct and had to prepare a trailer by a given date, which happens a lot.
DragonKnight
Member
No need to even discuss him anymore. Time will tell. The ball is now in his court.
geordiemp
Member
Bullshit, now way would they have a more powerful GPU being bandwidth starved by slooow DDR3 unless half the APU is ESRAM like Xb1 (which would also mean its not a big GPU).
Either way, smells all wrong.
Exactly. Bandwidth would be enough to feed a ps3 / 360 / wiiU unless their are taking an ESRAM to the knee.
If that's the case it makes you wonder what indie game would be big enough to have a trailer in something as big as a console reveal. They're normally relegated to Sizzle reels, and frankly if it's announced already they normally just use trailer/existing footage in those.
Closest indie relations I can think of is Yacht Club Games, but I doubt it's them at all.
frankie_baby
Member
DragonKnight
Member
360 had 512mb, no?
frankie_baby
Member
Wii U has 2gb
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Sounds great. Plenty of Ram for games.
And only 1gb for games though.
DragonKnight
Member
1 for games though but i guess all 512mb wasnt for games either
I never quite got this joke when the ESRAM is the ANTIDOTE to the already injured knee (DDR3). In this case the DDR3 is the arrow.
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