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RedGamingTech: "Why Series X is having performance problems."

SegaSnatcher

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Just because its the title of the video, doesn't mean its not clickbait, youtube proves that every day a thousand times. The series X isn't "performing badly" at all. Its certainly not underpergorming vs the ps5, considering the multiplatfirm games are very similar to this point. What, we are supposed to be surprised that like 3 multiplaform games rushed out for launch aren't that optimized? Doesn't really prove anything.

Regardless of of the case, right now Series X is not performing as well as it should be. Whatever the exact reason is, right now its a problem.
 

MastaKiiLA

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RGT is legit. His AMD sources are good. I assume his AMD sources would have some knowledge on Dirt5, as that was a key feature in the AMD RDNA2 presentation. I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet, but dev kits are going to be early for both machines. There might be some edge for the PS5, if they kept the coding workflow similar to the PS4, but the PS5's dev kits will continue to mature throughout the generation. Potential improvements for the XSX might come in the form of allowing developers to get closer to the metal, but much like game development, dev kit development takes time. So there might continue to be consistent offsets in each iteration. I don't know if anyone should realistically expect to see significant shifts in the performance landscape. The 2 boxes will remain very close to each other, and I expect 3rd parties to continue aiming for parity between the PS5 and XSX versions of games. We've seen that Ubi appears to be lazily going for identical settings for both. Once again, first parties should be expected to lead the way in performance. The use of multiplatform titles as benchmarks for consoles was always flawed.
 

kyliethicc

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DF already said it was the tools, I don't know why some random YTer opining would somehow present unique or valuable info we haven't heard before. How hard is it to wait and see what the second crop of multiplats is like? I feel like these threads just devolve into the usual suspects flinging poo and flashing their asses at each other while regurgitating the same tired talking points.

I'm not even sure what I'm doing here. I'll show myself out.

Dirt 5 developer on Xbox tools



 

sinnergy

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Jun 16, 2007
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At that time ps5 pro would be out and xsx2 no one would care about xsx and ps5.
But that’s not the point 😘 I am making . Then it will be 72 CUS VS 104 , rinse repeat .. or 54 CU Vs 70 or something like that ..

the point is , is Sony in a better spot now because it’s 36 CU of Pro to 36 CU in Ps5 and the may or may not implications for the future ..

That’s the interesting part .. maybe the higher clocks are enough to offset this or maybe not ..
 

Valued Gamer

Banned
Oct 26, 2020
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And Geometry Engine provides PS3-like depth but isn't required as it can do much on its own.

Yeah.....that sounds really good but I have no clue what it actually means.
Geometry Engine is a AMD function that goes back to Vega cards. Same with primitive shaders.
It's not a unique Sony thing.
 

mykedo0909

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Sep 18, 2020
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I preordered an series x and an ps5 in september. Series X for multiplats and gamepass as an addition. I has based on marketing a good feeling that the series x will be performing better, or on par w. ps5 multiplats. After receiving my xbox series x, i canceled my ps5 pre order as i have no big interesst in spider man or souls, so someone else who is hyped for it could get it for launch...

Now im a bit dissapointed and confused about those multiplat performance. Im usually not an enthusiast and dont need the last fps to be perfect, but investing that kind of money, i feel now a bit missguided by the whole road to launch and ms statements. If situation does not improve in the next few months, i will refund series x, and wait and see and then buy the console where multiplat performance has an advantage.

Im not convinced by the dev tool argument, and i dont care. the result is what matters...
 

Shmunter

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Geometry Engine is a AMD function that goes back to Vega cards. Same with primitive shaders.
It's not a unique Sony thing.
All gfx cards have a geometry engine. Cerney has developed a ’programmable’ version for PS5 allowing devs to micro manage the geometry pipeline in ways not previously possible.

With any luck, this pays major dividends like programmable shaders did at one time. Hope some more devs come out and discuss their experiences in the future.
 
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longdi

Ni hao ma, fellow kids?
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I preordered an series x and an ps5 in september. Series X for multiplats and gamepass as an addition. I has based on marketing a good feeling that the series x will be performing better, or on par w. ps5 multiplats. After receiving my xbox series x, i canceled my ps5 pre order as i have no big interesst in spider man or souls, so someone else who is hyped for it could get it for launch...

Now im a bit dissapointed and confused about those multiplat performance. Im usually not an enthusiast and dont need the last fps to be perfect, but investing that kind of money, i feel now a bit missguided by the whole road to launch and ms statements. If situation does not improve in the next few months, i will refund series x, and wait and see and then buy the console where multiplat performance has an advantage.

Im not convinced by the dev tool argument, and i dont care. the result is what matters...

Series x will be fine for multi platform, give the devs a little more time. SX plus GPU is the best value place for multi platform
 

kyliethicc

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• No big launch exclusives
• Worse performing third party titles
• Slower SSD speeds
• Bottle necked architecture
• No promise of VR additions
• Big exclusives likely 2+ years away

Ouch. Not looking good in the MS camp 😬

It gets worse:

- No exclusives ever, all on PC (or a phone)
- Same old controller
- Flagship game (Halo) is in disarray
- nothing especially promising coming soon
- Free to play costs money on Xbox Live (unlike PS5 & Switch & PC)
- Smaller marketshare than competitors, no/few 3rd party exclusives
- Baggage of last 7 years of disappointment
- No momentum
 

mykedo0909

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Series x will be fine for multi platform, give the devs a little more time. SX plus GPU is the best value place for multi platform
I really hope so. But fine is not enough i think. If paying 500 usd for a product, and you have 2 alternatives, and one of the companies pushes a narrative since months w. o. beeing able to back it up... leaves a bad taste. The worst for me is, that all those embargoes before launch, left people who wanted to preorder with almost no reliable data...
 

Bernd Lauert

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It gets worse:

- No exclusives ever, all on PC (or a phone)
- Same old controller
- Flagship game (Halo) is in disarray
- nothing especially promising coming soon
- Free to play costs money on Xbox Live (unlike PS5 & Switch & PC)
- Smaller marketshare than competitors, no/few 3rd party exclusives
- Baggage of last 7 years of disappointment
- No momentum

Exclusives are fake value, old controller is great so why change it, speculation, opinion, this isn't new?, see point 1, what?, ok lmao.
 

Monkeygourmet

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It gets worse:

- No exclusives ever, all on PC (or a phone)
- Same old controller
- Flagship game (Halo) is in disarray
- nothing especially promising coming soon
- Free to play costs money on Xbox Live (unlike PS5 & Switch & PC)
- Smaller marketshare than competitors, no/few 3rd party exclusives
- Baggage of last 7 years of disappointment
- No momentum

Yes, combined this is a big list of negatives.

MS have done practically nothing to stand out from the crowd, the Series X is an incredibly boring and ‘safe’ device.
 
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Bernd Lauert

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If most gamers are complaining about a lack of first party exclusives, then it's a problem.

There's no way to damage control this.

FIrst party exclusives from MS would be nice, sure. What he said though was it's bad that you can play MS first party games on a PC or on a phone. It's only a bad thing if you need the fake value from a game being exclusive. It's a great thing if you just want to play games.
 

longdi

Ni hao ma, fellow kids?
Jun 7, 2004
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I really hope so. But fine is not enough i think. If paying 500 usd for a product, and you have 2 alternatives, and one of the companies pushes a narrative since months w. o. beeing able to back it up... leaves a bad taste. The worst for me is, that all those embargoes before launch, left people who wanted to preorder with almost no reliable data...

Don't let the negativity and over reaction trick you. If you look into the details of all the comparisons, games on SX seem to have minor hiccups here and there, nothing to ruin your experience, especially with added GPU savings. If your tv is VRR capable, then there's mostly no issues. Otherwise you can avoid ACV until ubisoft patch the tearing on non vrr tv

The clearest difference is with dmc5se, which SX is generally a few percent smoother.
 
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Panajev2001a

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I really hope so. But fine is not enough i think. If paying 500 usd for a product, and you have 2 alternatives, and one of the companies pushes a narrative since months w. o. beeing able to back it up... leaves a bad taste. The worst for me is, that all those embargoes before launch, left people who wanted to preorder with almost no reliable data...

That is the bit I found odd at best and sleazy at worst, push an extremely loud performance crown and best on XSX angle without backing it up, not showing much of anything beyond BC titles, and literally over promising with the AC: Valhalla’s native 4K and 60 FPS claims which were a lie plain and simple.
 

SegaSnatcher

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Don't let the negativity and over reaction trick you. If you look into the details of all the comparisons, games on SX seem to have minor hiccups here and there, nothing to ruin your experience, especially with added GPU savings. If your tv is VRR capable, then there's mostly no issues.

The clearest difference is with dmc5se, which SX is generally a few percent smoother.

The Xbox mantra, "Just buy a new TV and the performance worries go away."
 
Sep 19, 2017
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Dirt 5 developer on Xbox tools



This is not coming from Sony or Nintendo or Apple or a guy on YouTube but from a dev working on actual XBOX SX. The tools are great and very advanced, he said. This narative was also pushed against Sony, at the time of this interview.
 

Panajev2001a

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Don't let the negativity and over reaction trick you. If you look into the details of all the comparisons, games on SX seem to have minor hiccups here and there, nothing to ruin your experience, especially with added GPU savings. If your tv is VRR capable, then there's mostly no issues.

The clearest difference is with dmc5se, which SX is generally a few percent smoother.

The difference only matters when it is on the XSX’s favour of course...

So we went from chest beating about 12+ TFLOPS and sustained performance, you will see major wins on XSX (18% wins being the worst case scenario) and FUD over overclocked 9 TFLOPS design (which you still engage in... oh the capacitors and what happens on PC overclocked GPU’s eh ;)?) to a few percent win in one scenario of one game being the victory you were promised and were warring for? Please... :rolleyes:.
 
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Panajev2001a

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The Xbox mantra, "Just buy a new TV and the performance worries go away."

Just trying to hold on until they get some of the studios they got making new games or at least trailers and then the first glimpse of the next XSX revision (mid generation upgrade) and they can then allow themselves to criticise the current strategy at all and try to hype up the “Next Box(TM)” (see previous generation until the Xbox One X got announced and after...).
 
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longdi

Ni hao ma, fellow kids?
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The Xbox mantra, "Just buy a new TV and the performance worries go away."

vrr is really a nice feature. otherwise, like i said, just hold back on AC:V. ubi will do something i bet.

The difference only matters when it is on the XSX’s favour of course...

So we went from chest beating about 12+ TFLOPS and sustained performance, you will see major wins on XSX (18% wins being the worst case scenario) and FUD over overclocked 9 TFLOPS design (which you still engage in... oh the capacitors and what happens on PC overclocked GPU’s eh ;)?) to a few percent win in one scenario of one game being the victory you were promised and were warring for? Please... :rolleyes:.

too soon brah, i mean if you look at CP2077 max recommended specs, it just needs an outdated 6700. non-K model!
let see once games start to max the zen2 + apu on both consoles. 🤷‍♀️

SX is doing fine for the circumstances it finds itself in atm.
 
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elcapitano

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FIrst party exclusives from MS would be nice, sure. What he said though was it's bad that you can play MS first party games on a PC or on a phone. It's only a bad thing if you need the fake value from a game being exclusive. It's a great thing if you just want to play games.
It's not fake value when first party games are more often than not of higher quality than their multi plat equivalents.
 

mhirano

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Dirt 5 developer on Xbox tools



Holy sh*t, this is huge!
Here dies the narrative of 'Xbox immature tools'.
Series X is just bottlenecked (and PS5 balanced)
 

elcapitano

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Again, it's fake value when you need it not be on PC or mobile just for you to be satisfied with it.

Oh ok yeah those people are stupid but there is evidence bro show that developing for one platform means the game will be of higher quality. More work if you got to do it for multiple platforms.
 
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Coolwhhip

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Don't let the negativity and over reaction trick you. If you look into the details of all the comparisons, games on SX seem to have minor hiccups here and there, nothing to ruin your experience, especially with added GPU savings. If your tv is VRR capable, then there's mostly no issues. Otherwise you can avoid ACV until ubisoft patch the tearing on non vrr tv

The clearest difference is with dmc5se, which SX is generally a few percent smoother.

Dude, MS and Xbox fans have been gloating and bragging for months that Xbox SERIESX (can't get over how bad that name is) was so much more powerful than PS5. So of course there is this reaction.

I'm still unsure if you are just optimistic with all your posts or just a blind fanboy.
 

alstrike

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yes count your chickens hatching from launch titles.

besides devtools, we shall see once games start moving away from jaguar cores to hammering the zen2 and contention with bandwith and power limits.

15-30% seems fair and delicious crows. 🤷‍♀️

I knew I couldn't take you seriously just looking at your avatar but now this is clear case of GTFO and stop peddling shit mate.
 

danielJackson

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Lord Savior Cerny didnt get his title for nothing :messenger_savoring:

For last 6+ months we had to listen to "lol 12 > 10", "lol damage control", "lmao this and that" from super fanboys whom have zero technical skills yet they think they are engineers because some screaming asshole on youtube/twitter spams words they dont understand.:messenger_tears_of_joy:

Like adults trying to speculate technical aspects and some kids yelling from playground "my uncle have bigger DICK than yours LOL", well, now we see that uncles dick in fact doesnt work as it supposed to be.

My original guesses were about xbox losing performance to PC+xses compatibility, windows based OS, directX, not so specialized APIs as PS5 and less customized hardware(full rdna, off the shelf blocks), split memory pool and wider gpu. few % here and there adds up into worse performance than specs say, while PS5 seems to be highly optimized to remove bottle necks and they didnt have to care about windows or server platforms.
 

longdi

Ni hao ma, fellow kids?
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It is a nice feature, but it shouldn't excuse developers from trying their hardest to get performance up to snuff. I don't want devs to just get incompetent and say to themselves "Ehh, they can just turn on VRR."

it is ubisoft though! dmc5se seems more than fine!

Dude, MS and Xbox fans have been gloating and bragging for months that Xbox SERIESX (can't get over how bad that name is) was so much more powerful than PS5. So of course there is this reaction.

I'm still unsure if you are just optimistic with all your posts or just a blind fanboy.

Im a realist. Launch games are launch games. With covid, with how MS is transitioning to their cloud/seamless GP model, with all the hints and leaks.
It is what it is.

I knew I couldn't take you seriously just looking at your avatar but now this is clear case of GTFO and stop peddling shit mate.

Imo it feels wrong to pass a sentence on launch games. Look even Dirt5 will be getting a post launch patch soon. So hold your crows!
 
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Dr.D00p

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• No big launch exclusives
• Worse performing third party titles
• Slower SSD speeds
• Bottle necked architecture
• No promise of VR additions
• Big exclusives likely 2+ years away

Ouch. Not looking good in the MS camp 😬
It gets worse:

- No exclusives ever, all on PC (or a phone)
- Same old controller
- Flagship game (Halo) is in disarray
- nothing especially promising coming soon
- Free to play costs money on Xbox Live (unlike PS5 & Switch & PC)
- Smaller marketshare than competitors, no/few 3rd party exclusives
- Baggage of last 7 years of disappointment
- No momentum

I wouldn't be too happy about only having a dominant player in the console space, In the end the only loser will be the consumer. We've already seen arrogant Sony once, do we really want to go there again when its time for PS6?
 

mykedo0909

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Don't let the negativity and over reaction trick you. If you look into the details of all the comparisons, games on SX seem to have minor hiccups here and there, nothing to ruin your experience, especially with added GPU savings. If your tv is VRR capable, then there's mostly no issues. Otherwise you can avoid ACV until ubisoft patch the tearing on non vrr tv

The clearest difference is with dmc5se, which SX is generally a few percent smoother.
Hmm its Observer as well, CoD,... but for me the main reason to buy it was CP2077 (i was so sad when they delayed it). Lets see how that turns out. I expect slight benefits for series x on launch, and for the next gen patch (which will be then my 2nd playthrough i hope)... time will tell.

We shouldn't forget that gaming is as well business, and depending on the approx. user base, each studio might shift ressources to the most lucrative plattforms.
 
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Tiamat2san

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I am really disappointed right now.
Still I’ll buy multi-plateforme games on Xbox for a year or so.
I prefer the interface and the game pad of Xbox. (I like the adaptative triggers on dual sense though)

I don’t have a huge understanding of programming, so i don’t see the logic of this shit show.
XSX is stronger on paper.
We’ll see in the coming months if the tools narrative is true or not.
If not I’ll shift my multi plat purchase to PS5.

Damn, it’s disappointing !!!
 
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assurdum

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We know there are scenarios where XSX can go as bad as 20fps lower than PS5 at the same time rendering in lower resolution. That's basically 30-40% power difference. There is nothing in that hardware that would explain that.
Again you don't read what I write.
 
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Hezekiah

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I posted this in a different thread but I felt it was appropriate here too. I think at this point even if it's really the tools, then what? They get everything "tightened up" and are on par with PS5? Or best case scenario maybe have a 5%-8%, or even 10% performance advantage? Would that be considered a win?

The narrative that the Series X is somehow vastly more powerful than PS5 has be shattered. It literally doesn't matter if they get everything firing on all cylinders and somehow take a very minor performance crown from here on out. For the vast majority, they'll look at the games and say to themselves that it's too close to call and PlayStation has better first-party support. I still think Series X is a great system, but fuck did they ever trip over themselves and fall on their face with this power narrative.

Speaking of tools, what about PS5? What happens if third-party developers really utilize PS5's SSD and I/O? What happens if they start digging into the fully programable geometry engine? For all the talk of tools, I don't hear anyone talking about that. This ain't over.
Yeah I think that's the thing. When the original Xbox came out, the power advantage over the PS2 was immediately obvious.

Microsoft overplayed it's hand with its marketing, compounded by these third-party game comparisons, and the lack of first-party titles.
 
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THE:MILKMAN

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I don't think it is as simple as the dev kit tools are in their infancy as even the Dirt5 dev said they are very good and this is also backed up by the fact the GDK went out last November which was confirmed by Phil Spencer himself in the Eurogamer XO19 interview.

A full year of working on the hardware for devs is unprecedented for Xbox and then add all the updates and bug fixes. I think both One/360 didn't even get final HW until a couple of months before launch?

I just wish we got more info about PS5's inner workings now it is released. We get to hear so much more about Xbox in this regard and I don't know why.
 
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sircaw

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A local pond.
Well, technically, neither a canoe or paddle would be any way helpful in the Khyber Pass.
Unless said canoe and paddle were on the roof racks of a car.

Now, Shit Creek would be totally appropriate analogy.

I did put, there is no river there, but deleted it hah, thought people would not know DAMMIT LOL :messenger_heart:
 
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assurdum

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I am really disappointed right now.
Still I’ll buy multi-plateforme games on Xbox for a year or so.
I prefer the interface and the game pad of Xbox. (I like the adaptative triggers on dual sense though)

I don’t have a huge understanding of programming, so i don’t see the logic of this shit show.
XSX is stronger on paper.
We’ll see in the coming months if the tools narrative is true or not.
If not I’ll shift my multi plat purchase to PS5.

Damn, it’s disappointing !!!
That's ridiculous. So you bought an hardware just to hear it has the edge in multiplat? Except the 120 fps mode in Dirt 5, differences are not that dramatic to hate the console. The problem is too much people are blinded to the MS PR campaign. Probably without a face off anyone would havent noticed it. Heck there are people some days agos substained the series X version had the edge in the multiplat game looking both neck to neck
 
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Leyasu

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• No big launch exclusives
• Worse performing third party titles
• Slower SSD speeds
• Bottle necked architecture
• No promise of VR additions
• Big exclusives likely 2+ years away

Ouch. Not looking good in the MS camp 😬
Where’s the bottleneck in the system?
 

Monkeygourmet

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PS5 will really kick into gear with the new co developed Unreal engine - wow that’s going to be hard to beat
 

Vae_Victis

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yes count your chickens hatching from launch titles.

besides devtools, we shall see once games start moving away from jaguar cores to hammering the zen2 and contention with bandwith and power limits.

15-30% seems fair and delicious crows. 🤷‍♀️
Lol where does 15-30% even come from now. Before launch the line usually was "around 15%" advantage over PS5, because of the TFLOPs difference and gleefully ignoring the remaining 95% of both machines.

Even if you account for any possible hardware advantage the XSX has, and completely ignore all the ones in favour of PS5, there is literally no way to come to "it's 30% better on paper". This is complete lunacy.
 

Leyasu

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Because of the worse third party performance and all the screen tear etc?

Maybe bottle neck is the wrong word and the devs are just pushing it too hard for whats capable on the machine I’m not sure
Ok, so You’re just making things up. I don’t mean to be nasty either .

Some half baked launch games shouldn’t be a measuring stick. I would bet money that unlocking the frame rate on red dead 2 would result in a better looking/performing game than the launch games having performance problems. Gears at 120hz loos and plays phenomenal and força horizon at 60hz annihilates dirt 5 at 60hz. This is nothing, and the devs are not going to admit to rushed ports.

If godfall in 6 months runs worse than the ps5 version then we can really start talking. Battlefield next year which is pure next will be the one to watch.
 
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Topher70

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Imo it feels wrong to pass a sentence on launch games. Look even Dirt5 will be getting a post launch patch soon. So hold your crows!

Why do you care if Dirt 5 gets a patch when it comes to comparison to PS5? "Feels wrong to pass a sentence on launch games". Even if the results change after the patch you've dismissed these early games entirely.
 
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SegaSnatcher

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Lol where does 15-30% even come from now. Before launch the line usually was "around 15%" advantage over PS5, because of the TFLOPs difference and gleefully ignoring the remaining 95% of both machines.

Even if you account for any possible hardware advantage the XSX has, and completely ignore all the ones in favour of PS5, there is literally no way to come to "it's 30% better on paper". This is complete lunacy.

The 30% is coming from the kool-aid they've been drinking after hearing about "Velocity Engine". "OMG, you just wait until devs tap into Series X Velocity Engine, it will take the advantage Series X already has over PS5 and at least double it, gonna be crazy my dudes."

That quote wasn't an exaggeration, people have been spreading that fud for over 6 months via social media and youtube.
 
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