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RedGamingTech: "Why Series X is having performance problems."

Jun 1, 2016
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Holy shit everyone here just picks and chooses the snippets to be real and to be fake fud. You can't use his videos for your agenda but call bullshit on his other videos that don't push your agenda. This is for both teams BTW.
Save this Post.
In the next year multi will run a smidge better on Xbox. PS first party will be the best looking games until R* make the best looking game of the generation.
 

Vae_Victis

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The 30% is coming from the kool-aid they've been drinking after hearing about "Velocity Engine". "OMG, you just wait until devs tap into Series X Velocity Engine, it will take the advantage Series X already has over PS5 and at least double it, gonna be crazy my dudes."

That quote wasn't an exaggeration, people have been spreading that fud for over 6 months via social media and youtube.
Oh don't worry, I know it's bollocks. Dee said XSX would have a "40-50 fps advantage due to TFLOPS alone" months ago, and just the other day ColtEastwood reiterated that with the new magic tools XSX will suddenly outperform PS5 by up to 50%.

Of course none of these people ever bring forth any real argument to justify their statements, because they know perfectly themselves that they are spewing bullshit. But it gets them clicks from kids and retards, and pats on the head from Phil, so why shouldn't they.

I was just curious to hear how he explains it, since he sound so sure. But I have a strong feeling the answer will be something along the line of

 

Md Ray

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I wouldn't be too happy about only having a dominant player in the console space, In the end the only loser will be the consumer. We've already seen arrogant Sony once, do we really want to go there again when its time for PS6?
I'm with you on this one. Someone needs to keep Sony in check, and IMO, only MS is in the position to do that. And this coming from one of the biggest PlayStation fans.

The thing I want the most from MS is good quality first-party single-player games akin to Sony's. AFAIK, there are just no SP games from MS's side that are as enjoyable as it was on the PS side this gen, sadly. But I have to admit I'm a sucker for single-player, story-driven games so I gravitate more towards those kinds of titles, and atm PlayStation is the only place to go for those kinds of games for me.

I'd like MS to give a tough competition to Sony in this space. Hopefully, they do this gen.
 
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Panajev2001a

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vrr is really a nice feature. otherwise, like i said, just hold back on AC:V. ubi will do something i bet.



too soon brah, i mean if you look at CP2077 max recommended specs, it just needs an outdated 6700. non-K model!
let see once games start to max the zen2 + apu on both consoles. 🤷‍♀️

SX is doing fine for the circumstances it finds itself in atm.
Will wait until XSX V2 is announced for you to allow yourself to find any flaws at all in XSX and use them to hype XSX2 even more... 🤷‍♂️.
 
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• No big launch exclusives
• Worse performing third party titles
• Slower SSD speeds
• Bottle necked architecture
• No promise of VR additions
• Big exclusives likely 2+ years away

Ouch. Not looking good in the MS camp 😬
Bet Halo Infinite is going to suck also. That would really put a damper on Year 1. At least there is Gamepass and BC.
 

reinking

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yes count your chickens hatching from launch titles.

besides devtools, we shall see once games start moving away from jaguar cores to hammering the zen2 and contention with bandwith and power limits.

15-30% seems fair and delicious crows. 🤷‍♀️
I can see 30% from where the XBSX sits now but isn't PS5 beating Series X 10-15% in some games? Jumping 40-45% is a big ask.
 

longdi

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I can see 30% from where the XBSX sits now but isn't PS5 beating Series X 10-15% in some games? Jumping 40-45% is a big ask.
I don't think ps5 is winning 10-15% now? Just by gut estimates from seeing all the YT video. There are moments of gameplay when SX takes a big dip, but generally both are about there.

Imo it's harder to determine with dynamic resolutions nowadays. And SX gap is not as large as One X before

I won't be surprise if SX start making up ground to unleash it's theoretical power. I just hope MS drops the jaguar cpu cores asap.
 

Kerotan

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So basically:
-Dev kits for XS arrived later than PS5 Dev kits
-Early version of the kits had some issues
-PS5 dev kit is much more similar to the PS4 than the XS to the One
LOL and to think people said the ps5 was the ps3 all over again with the cell. Xbox need that Cerny sauce it seems. When a man can talk for 40 mins straight without pause or drinking water you know he's cooking something special.
 

longdi

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Why do you care if Dirt 5 gets a patch when it comes to comparison to PS5? "Feels wrong to pass a sentence on launch games". Even if the results change after the patch you've dismissed these early games entirely.
Will wait until XSX V2 is announced for you to allow yourself to find any flaws at all in XSX and use them to hype XSX2 even more... 🤷‍♂️.
Chill guys, let's not be relentless. The covid situation today is just unheard for most of us. Let's be more understanding and patient. Isn't the dirt5 patch hitting soon ish?
 

PaNaMa

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It probably mostly boils down to frequency in these early titles. I'm a total moron when it comes to understanding the intricacies of all this, but the one thing that consistently improves framerates is frequency. You see it on PC when you OC with Afterburner, you see it on these Switch home brew tests where they bump up frequency and rerun the benchmarks etc.

Xbox has lower clock speeds, but more CUs.
More horses, but they don't run as fast. I'm sure they are optimizations they can do to focus on Xbox's strengths and close the gap. But with most games I guess it all comes down to frequency.
 
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THE:MILKMAN

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It probably mostly boils down to frequency in these early titles. I'm a total moron when it comes to understanding the intricacies of all this, but the one thing that consistently improves framerates is frequency. You see it on PC when you OC with Afterburner, you see it on these Switch home brew tests where they bump up frequency and rerun the benchmarks etc.

Xbox has lower clock speeds, but more CUs.
More horses, but they don't run as fast. I'm sure they are optimizations they can do to focus on Xbox's strengths and close the gap. But with most games I guess it all comes down to frequency.
The irony is Microsoft knew very well that frequency over CUs is the bigger win as they made that exact argument when increasing Xbox One clocks over going with 14CUs.

I can only assume they needed to go more CUs to do 4 instances of Xbox One for the Azure servers as others have argued and that is the compromise. I'm sure it will improve in time and fairly quickly but so will PS5 going forward.
 

reinking

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I don't think ps5 is winning 10-15% now? Just by gut estimates from seeing all the YT video. There are moments of gameplay when SX takes a big dip, but generally both are about there.

Imo it's harder to determine with dynamic resolutions nowadays. And SX gap is not as large as One X before

I won't be surprise if SX start making up ground to unleash it's theoretical power. I just hope MS drops the jaguar cpu cores asap.
I don't really care how it performs against third-party software but I do want them to get it together before the launch of the big first-party titles. I have seen enough to know the PS5 is outperforming the XBSX and thinking it might jump it by 30% seems a little too much for me to believe. I think we will see more parity with some games giving the edge to either console throughout the generation.

I'm starting to think Phil relied on others and was believing them when they were telling him "everything is going great" without actually demanding proof. I mean.. ..this is a bit frustrating to see them stumble out of the gate. This goes all the way back to Halo Infinite and runs through their less than stellar summer showings. The indicators were there that things were not going well for launch and instead of coming up with a clear and focused message we got some jabs at Sony. I'm not expecting much for at least holiday of next year. As I have stated before, I knew when I bought the Series X it was for Game Pass/BC but I did expect to choose third-party based on "other" things like DualSense VS perks. MS has made that easy so far.
 

assurdum

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But that’s not the point 😘 I am making . Then it will be 72 CUS VS 104 , rinse repeat .. or 54 CU Vs 70 or something like that ..

the point is , is Sony in a better spot now because it’s 36 CU of Pro to 36 CU in Ps5 and the may or may not implications for the future ..

That’s the interesting part .. maybe the higher clocks are enough to offset this or maybe not ..
36 CUs are not an issue if they are fully utilized. People are too obsessed to the high number counts in the specs. If it was the case, series X could have literally destroyed ps5 in the multiplat from the beginning, heck even DF said series X already have full access to the 52 CUs in the BC mode.
 
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longdi

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The irony is Microsoft knew very well that frequency over CUs is the bigger win as they made that exact argument when increasing Xbox One clocks over going with 14CUs.

I can only assume they needed to go more CUs to do 4 instances of Xbox One for the Azure servers as others have argued and that is the compromise. I'm sure it will improve in time and fairly quickly but so will PS5 going forward.
Nah they had to over clock the one because after knowing ps4 specs has totally defeated them. A futile attempt to cover the gap.

That's why Phil wanted series x to compete in price and performance this round
 
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Stiflers Mom

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There is no denying that it's looking a bit bad for the Series consoles right now.. And I didn't expect that. But it seems nobody, really know why that is the way it is at the moment.

MS launched the Series X a year too early probably.
Which doesn't look good on Phil.
 

THE:MILKMAN

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Nah they had to over clock the one because after knowing ps4 specs has totally defeated them. A futile attempt to cover the gap.

That's why Phil wanted series x to compete in price and performance this round
Read the whole article yourself: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-complete-xbox-one-interview

This quote stands out from the XSX system architect...

Andrew Goossen: Right. By fixing the clock, not only do we increase our ALU performance, we also increase our vertex rate, we increase our pixel rate and ironically increase our ESRAM bandwidth. But we also increase the performance in areas surrounding bottlenecks like the drawcalls flowing through the pipeline, the performance of reading GPRs out of the GPR pool, etc. GPUs are giantly complex. There's gazillions of areas in the pipeline that can be your bottleneck in addition to just ALU and fetch performance.
These areas of the GPU pipeline are where the PS5 is better than XSX....Coincidence?
 

ReBurn

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The split RAM pool is a start.
Considering how split RAM screwed PS3 games early on it real is weird that Microsoft would do that instead of letting developers choose how to allocate those resources. It's not like there wasn't pretty much an entire generation of third party games being worse on PS3 to provide empirical evidence of it.
 
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There is no denying that it's looking a bit bad for the Series consoles right now.. And I didn't expect that. But it seems nobody, really know why that is the way it is at the moment.

MS launched the Series X a year too early probably.
Which doesn't look good on Phil.
I don't believe the hardware is half baked though. It's probably what they wanted it to be.
 

Stiflers Mom

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I don't believe the hardware is half baked though. It's probably what they wanted it to be.
Nah, it's just something looks weird to me at the moment. This whole thing doesn't add up somehow.

I would really love to know what kind of problems the dirt devs encountered during creating this game for the Series consoles.

Another point is off course that MS has 23 studios now, and not one game for the beginning of this console gen.

What a shit show.
 
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assurdum

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There is no denying that it's looking a bit bad for the Series consoles right now.. And I didn't expect that. But it seems nobody, really know why that is the way it is at the moment.

MS launched the Series X a year too early probably.
Which doesn't look good on Phil.
Of course we know why. Bad kit of development. Let's not hide behind a finger.
 
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Nah, it's just something looks weird to me at the moment. This whole thing doesn't add up somehow.

I would really love to know what kind of problems the dirt devs encountered during creating this game for the Series consoles.

Another point is off course that MS has 23 studios now, and not one game for the beginning of this console gen.

What a shit show.
If there is a problem with the hardware then it's going to be that way for the rest of the gen. They wouldn't market it as the most powerful system if it wasn't true.

But your point about the software. They just don't seem ready to launch a console where 1st party support is concerned. Something must have happened with their studios. My guess is that they probably were not expecting the XSX to launch so soon. That could explain why the launch lineup is anemic.
 

Panajev2001a

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Chill guys, let's not be relentless. The covid situation today is just unheard for most of us. Let's be more understanding and patient. Isn't the dirt5 patch hitting soon ish?
I understand and think it is hard on all software devs (and managers of Leads that still do dev work from time to time like they used to annoying everyone else :p), even worse on workers that cannot do their job remotely.

COVID-19 affected SIE Studios too.
 

Guilty_AI

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LOL and to think people said the ps5 was the ps3 all over again with the cell. Xbox need that Cerny sauce it seems. When a man can talk for 40 mins straight without pause or drinking water you know he's cooking something special.
I wouldn't expect much from this secret sauce if i were you though. Sony always bring this kind of talk at the beginning of each gen, and more than half of it usually turns out to be hot air.

All this about how their special I/O solution "will bring about visuals in ways you've never seen before! All thanks to the high-speed streaming of high quality assets!!!!", but we already have games like Crysis remake running with 8k textures, no secret sauce needed.

Not saying what they did isn't cool, just expect them to be overplaying their hand a lot.
 

BlackProdigy

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We have seen Outer Worlds on Ps5 loading time? Link?
That's not how any of this works. The Xbox One S has been cheaper than the PS4, for years now.
Salient point. They seem to be intent on disseminating their games to every possible console.. i imagine some people are just gonna want good games on a good system.. when i realised that I'll be able to play every xBox game on my computer, any residual interest i ever held in getting an xsx just vanished in smoke~
I don't really care how it performs against third-party software but I do want them to get it together before the launch of the big first-party titles. I have seen enough to know the PS5 is outperforming the XBSX and thinking it might jump it by 30% seems a little too much for me to believe. I think we will see more parity with some games giving the edge to either console throughout the generation.

I'm starting to think Phil relied on others and was believing them when they were telling him "everything is going great" without actually demanding proof. I mean.. ..this is a bit frustrating to see them stumble out of the gate. This goes all the way back to Halo Infinite and runs through their less than stellar summer showings. The indicators were there that things were not going well for launch and instead of coming up with a clear and focused message we got some jabs at Sony. I'm not expecting much for at least holiday of next year. As I have stated before, I knew when I bought the Series X it was for Game Pass/BC but I did expect to choose third-party based on "other" things like DualSense VS perks. MS has made that easy so far.

This I'm pretty sure Phil is not happy behind closed doors and is taking a more hands-on approach. His project managers failed him.
 

Dave_at_Home

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But that’s not the point 😘 I am making . Then it will be 72 CUS VS 104 , rinse repeat .. or 54 CU Vs 70 or something like that ..

the point is , is Sony in a better spot now because it’s 36 CU of Pro to 36 CU in Ps5 and the may or may not implications for the future ..

That’s the interesting part .. maybe the higher clocks are enough to offset this or maybe not ..
PS5 does push more triangles, and has a higher fill rate while also having higher cache bandwidth because of its clocks. Smartshift helping make it more efficient perhaps. Anyway, lots of people here, including myself, are still waiting for Sony to do a full breakdown of all the other tweaks to its hardware that they hold close to their chest. If we knew that stuff we'd have a better understanding of why the PS5 is performing the way it is. As for Series X, even if Xbox fully gets its shit together it's too late. The massive power narrative over PS5 is broken.
 
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Tiamat2san

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That's ridiculous. So you bought an hardware just to hear it has the edge in multiplat? Except the 120 fps mode in Dirt 5, differences are not that dramatic to hate the console. The problem is too much people are blinded to the MS PR campaign. Probably without a face off anyone would havent noticed it. Heck there are people some days agos substained the series X version had the edge in the multiplat game looking both neck to neck
I bought both consoles (I always do) but I prefer to play on Xbox because of the gamepad, UI and achievements but if they are better on PS5 I’ll have to choose between confortable pad / achievement VS better performance.

yeah, I know, first world problems...
 

silentstorm

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Just want to point out that exclusives, unless it's on a Nintendo platform, are usually not the biggest sellers and people generally play multiplats, that being said, for less casual gamers, exclusives do matter, you want to be able to play more games after spending a few hundred bucks.

And Microsoft just took too long to start making their next-gen games, which will bite them in the ass, you'd think being a distant third would have meant that the new console would come out with a new Halo, Forza and something new such as Everwild...nope, those will take a while.

Also, even if multiplats still sell a lot, it's hard to deny that franchises like Uncharted, God Of War and Ratchet and Clank don't make people buy a Playstation console, Microsoft has tried starting some franchises other than Halo/Forza/Gears but they failed, who here remembers Kameo, or Blinx, or Viva Pinata?

Heck, by the time they entered the market, the Playstation had already been a huge hit and several big franchises had already started there such as Resident Evil and Persona(though this one got big after the PS1) and had gotten big iconic games like FF7 and Metal Gear Solid in it, and Final Fantasy amongst many japanese games still only went to PS2.

Look, i don't really hate the Xbox, and i do wish it was a bigger competition to Nintendo and Playstation, but Microsoft only got some real momentum with the 360 and that failed because of serious hardware issues, and the Xbox One launch was TERRIBLE.
 
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Dave_at_Home

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I wouldn't expect much from this secret sauce if i were you though. Sony always bring this kind of talk at the beginning of each gen, and more than half of it usually turns out to be hot air.

All this about how their special I/O solution "will bring about visuals in ways you've never seen before! All thanks to the high-speed streaming of high quality assets!!!!", but we already have games like Crysis remake running with 8k textures, no secret sauce needed.

Not saying what they did isn't cool, just expect them to be overplaying their hand a lot.
You saw that PS5 Unreal demo, right?

The faster your SSD and I/O, the more assets you can have sitting in RAM and at higher quality for the GPU to draw. Demons Souls is just the first round of this. You should watch the Digital Foundry interview with Bluepoint on this. I believe it was around the seventeen minute mark.

Also, comparing it to a PC isn't exactly fair (8k Crysis). In a PC you can just slap as much RAM as your motherboard can handle. Consoles are obviously a closed system so no slapping more RAM if you feel like it. Sony's solution is hitting two birds with one stone. Alleviate RAM constraints while having more and higher quality assets in RAM.
 

assurdum

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I bought both consoles (I always do) but I prefer to play on Xbox because of the gamepad, UI and achievements but if they are better on PS5 I’ll have to choose between confortable pad / achievement VS better performance.

yeah, I know, first world problems...
If I can say difference on multiplat will not to land to something of rilevant to prefer a console over another. They will be literally impossible to spot in with a naked eye. Both hardware are too much close.
 
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longdi

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Read the whole article yourself: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-complete-xbox-one-interview

This quote stands out from the XSX system architect...

These areas of the GPU pipeline are where the PS5 is better than XSX....Coincidence?
I dont think so. They were talking before the last minute One clock boost. In fact the interview was about them trying to justify using a lower CU count part(7700 instead of 7800 series).

This is before your earlier quote.
Obviously, there is no way for MS to use the full 16 CU.

And so raising the GPU clock is the result of going in and tweaking our balance. Every one of the Xbox One dev kits actually has 14 CUs on the silicon. Two of those CUs are reserved for redundancy in manufacturing. But we could go and do the experiment - if we were actually at 14 CUs what kind of performance benefit would we get versus 12? And if we raised the GPU clock what sort of performance advantage would we get? And we actually saw on the launch titles - we looked at a lot of titles in a lot of depth - we found that going to 14 CUs wasn't as effective as the 6.6 per cent clock upgrade that we did. Now everybody knows from the internet that going to 14 CUs should have given us almost 17 per cent more performance but in terms of actual measured games - what actually, ultimately counts - is that it was a better engineering decision to raise the clock
 
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How much useble fast RAM does ps5 have compared to series X? For games?
Well the PS5 has 16GBs of ram. So I can imagine that there would be more than 10GBs available for developers because I doubt the OS takes 6GBs.

I've seen people throw around 2.5GBs -3GBs for the OS.
 
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Tiamat2san

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If I can say difference on multiplat will not to land to something of rilevant to prefer a console over another. They will be literally impossible to spot in with a naked eye. Both hardware are too much close.
I guess I need to stop watching comparisons videos for a moment. 😂

I will wait for improvements patches too because the tearing in assassin’s creed Valhalla is annoying.
 

sinnergy

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PS5 does push more triangles, and has a higher fill rate while also having higher cache bandwidth because of its clocks. Smartshift helping make it more efficient perhaps. Anyway, lots of people here, including myself, are still waiting for Sony to do a full breakdown of all the other tweaks to its hardware that they hold close to their chest. If we knew that stuff we'd have a better understanding of why the PS5 is performing the way it is. As for Series X, even if Xbox fully gets its shit together it's too late. The massive power narrative over PS5 is broken.
Ps4 pro had a higher pixel fillrate over One X, didn’t translate in games .
 

Panajev2001a

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Ps4 pro had a higher pixel fillrate over One X, didn’t translate in games .
They knew they had fillrate exceeding their memory bandwidth capabilities as a result of doubling up the design they got more ROPS than they had use for, not quite sure this scenario is relevant to the situation right now. It is not the only advantage PS5 has by the way.

The consoles are much much closer than the chest beating marketing led some people to believe and the games so far are even closer than anyone was willing to admit.
 
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They knew they had fillrate exceeding their memory bandwidth capabilities as a result of doubling up the design they got more ROPS than they had use for, not quite sure this scenario is relevant to the situation right now. It is not the only advantage PS5 has by the way.

The consoles are much much closer than the chest beating marketing led some people to believe and the games so far are even closer than anyone was willing to admit.
I also have a theory that the more you increase resolution the more flops you need to make a noticeable difference at the next resolution tier.

Like a 2TF difference is massive if both systems are targeting 1080P but bump that up to 4K and the differences will become minor. It's why with so many games have an almost identical IQ (except for Dirt 5s bug).
 
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THE:MILKMAN

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I dont think so. They were talking before the last minute One clock boost. In fact the interview was about them trying to justify using a lower CU count part(7700 instead of 7800 series).

This is before your earlier quote.
Obviously, there is no way for MS to use the full 16 CU.
Not sure why you mention 16CUs? Just read the rest of the quote after the bold. They tested real-world games and a 6.6% increase in clock was more effective than releasing the 2CUs (17% more) from redundancy. With PS5 it has far fewer CUs but a far higher clock versus XSX and launch TP games are running better out the box.
 
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Guilty_AI

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You saw that PS5 Unreal demo, right?

The faster your SSD and I/O, the more assets you can have sitting in RAM and at higher quality for the GPU to draw. Demons Souls is just the first round of this. You should watch the Digital Foundry interview with Bluepoint on this. I believe it was around the seventeen minute mark.

Also, comparing it to a PC isn't exactly fair (8k Crysis). In a PC you can just slap as much RAM as your motherboard can handle. Consoles are obviously a closed system so no slapping more RAM if you feel like it. Sony's solution is hitting two birds with one stone. Alleviate RAM constraints while having more and higher quality assets in RAM.
Its not like Crysis R needs some insane RAM requirements, seems like even with 16GB you can run it at max.

Also, I forgot to add, but the ps5 isn't the only one bringing optimized I/O to the table either. We could discuss all day which ones are faster and whatnot, throwing a bunch of numbers around, but the truth of the matter is that with everyone bringing new more efficients solutions to the tables, the claims some people make that the PS5 can do miracle stuff or new ways of play thats impossible in other systems (including XSX) is going way too many steps too far.
Thats what i mean when i say to not expect much from this secret sauce of theirs.
 
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Cherrypepsi

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What if the Series X is not underperforming?

The 2080 super gets around 60 fps at 1440p with comparable settings in AC Valhalla
People were saying this months ago, the SeX has around the same render performance as the 2080S.

Just because the PS5 can squeeze a bit more out of this game, doesnt mean the xbox has performance problems.

Comparison is the thief of joy
 
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longdi

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Not sure why you mention 16CUs? Just read the rest of the quote after the bold. They tested real-world games and a 6.6% increase in clock was more effective than releasing the 2CUs (17% more) from redundancy. With PS5 it has far fewer CUs but a far higher clock versus XSX and launch TP games are running better out the box.
Yes i read through, seems like they were trying hard to excuse themselves for choosing the lower cu part. Till the end of last gen, Xbox One performance was always inferior to Ps4.
But we cant blame Andrew's team back then. Seems half the budget was allocated to Kinect v2. They had to use the 7700 and push it as much as possible. 🤷‍♀️
 
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