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RedGamingTech: "Why Series X is having performance problems."

quest

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What if the Series X is not underperforming?

The 2080 super gets around 60 fps at 1440p with comparable settings in AC Valhalla
People were saying this months ago, the SeX has around the same render performance as the 2080S.

Just because the PS5 can squeeze a bit more out of this game, doesnt mean the xbox has performance problems.

Comparison is the thief of joy
You mean because the playstation platform sells more they spent more time optimizing the PS5 version and the series x and s got the PC left overs. Welcome to reality best selling platform gets the hand tuning and special attention the rest gets does it run fuck it ship it. It will be up to Microsoft to give developers reasons to balance time more equally instead being the after thought.
 
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kuncol02

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Yes i read through, seems like they were trying hard to excuse themselves for choosing the lower cu part. Till the end of last gen, Xbox One performance was always inferior to Ps4.
But we cant blame Andrew's team back then. Seems half the budget was allocated to Kinect v2. They had to use the 7700 and push it as much as possible. 🤷‍♀️
That was more complicated. MS wanted 8gb of ram at all cost, so they choose DDR3 memory instead of GDDR5. To offset lower speed of RAM they had to use eSRAM cache which in turn ate big part of their transistor budget (XOne APU was bigger than PS4 one). Remember that PS4 in original plans was supposed to had 4gb of ram because of it's price.
 

THE:MILKMAN

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Yes i read through, seems like they were trying hard to excuse themselves for choosing the lower cu part. Till the end of last gen, Xbox One performance was always inferior to Ps4.
But we cant blame Andrew's team back then. Seems half the budget was allocated to Kinect v2. They had to use the 7700 and push it as much as possible. 🤷‍♀️

There is an element of PR damage control no doubt and Kinect put them in a tight spot but the higher clocks argument presented was also true. It just confuses me why, with this knowledge, they then proceeded to make new compromises with a 2 next-gen SKUs strategy and a SoC to also be used as a cloud server and to top it off massively push being the most powerful. Talk about heaping pressure on your team!
 
Jan 29, 2019
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You mean because the playstation platform sells more they spent more time optimizing the PS5 version and the series x and s got the PC left overs. Welcome to reality best selling platform gets the hand tuning and special attention the rest gets does it run fuck it ship it. It will be up to Microsoft to give developers reasons to balance time more equally instead being the after thought.
This is a lot of assumptions to make excuses for the expectations that were not met, you wanted the PS5 to perform like a 1050ti so you could boast about it--it was obvious that the new consoles would end up pretty close in terms of performance in the end, but even I wasn't expecting them to be so close.

 

Cherrypepsi

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You mean because the playstation platform sells more they spent more time optimizing the PS5 version and the series x and s got the PC left overs. Welcome to reality best selling platform gets the hand tuning and special attention the rest gets does it run fuck it ship it. It will be up to Microsoft to give developers reasons to balance time more equally instead being the after thought.

That's not what I said. I don't think they spent more time on the PS5 optimization, in fact I think they spent less.

Having every platform under one streamlined DirectX12 development roof is exactly what Microsoft wanted. There are profiling modes for 4 Xbox consoles, in theory this can make development very easy.
 
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dvdvideo

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There was a couple of people who bought a series X fir multiplatform games that posted they are worried. Why? Even the games that are out now are near identical, if some video hadn't zoomed in 800% and told you one tiny texture was worse, you would have no clue that there was any difference. As time goes on, its likely the series x raw power will come through, but even if it holds even, you haven't lost much.

And you should be saving for the other console anyhow, both system will have good exclusives, they are both needed.
 
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silentstorm

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You mean because the playstation platform sells more they spent more time optimizing the PS5 version and the series x and s got the PC left overs. Welcome to reality best selling platform gets the hand tuning and special attention the rest gets does it run fuck it ship it. It will be up to Microsoft to give developers reasons to balance time more equally instead being the after thought.
Sometimes they don't try, anyone remember the PC ports for the Batman Arkham games and the recent Mortal Kombat games?

They came a freaking disaster, i think they even gave up on fixing the PC port of Arkham Knight, also, these last few years i just felt sorry for the Xbox, so many games came to PC/PS4/Switch or some mix of two of those platforms and the Xbox One got ignored, particularly when it comes to japanese games AND indie games.

It's just sad looking at upcoming indie games and seeing how many are coming to PC/PS/Switch and the Xbox are ignored, some Kickstarters such as the one for Blade Assault basically say the games will be readily available to PC/PS4/Switch and they don't even try to bother talking about Xbox, Bushiden is a Shinobi inspired indie game that at some point apparently would have had a port to Xbox One, you betcha it got cancelled and it will be on everything but the Xbox.

Heck, looking at shmups it's the same thing, Cotton Reboot, not on Xbox, the Darius Collection, not on Xbox, hey, we are porting various old games and even got a super rare arcade game that was so rare it took ages to even be emulated, Zero Team, guess which of the three consoles is the only one to not get a port of a really rare 1993 arcade game?

Japanese developers and indie developers just seem to hate the Xbox to a hilarious degree, but i bet it has something to do with it being a distant third when it comes to console sales after the Xbox One failed to meet expectations and had a terrible launch, at this point i kinda just feel bad for the Xbox.
 

splattered

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I feel bad for all the Sony fans on this forum that are dancing around right now but will be upset this time next year when devs are delivering games outperforming 99% on the PS5. Right now i'm happy both consoles are performing close but once the dev kits mature a bit on XSX the system will pull ahead a bit and goal posts will shift. I think in the future they will remain close with a slight lead on Xbox platform which is fine.
 
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Hendrick's

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That video is so pathetic. Dude is lying his ass off. He didn’t speak to any developers. He’s just an Xbox fanboy.
How many times has a RGT thread been made when it was pro Sony? Go ahead, do a search and get back to me. I'm sure you never called him a Sony fanboy then.
 
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silentstorm

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Don't have a PS5 or Dualsense, but everyone who has tried it acts like the new controller is the best thing ever, not because it drastically changes games, but the way they feel and immerse you.

I recall one reviewer saying that Dirt 5 will always be superior on PS5 even if they completely fix the Xbox port just because of the haptic feedback alone, so the controller does seem to have paid off, i get that Microsoft didn't want to change too much in case it failed, and didn't want to get another failed gimmick like the Kinect, but it feels like they missed out.

That being said, everyone who has tried the Xbox Series controller really enjoys it and it's a better version of the One controller, apparently the D-Pad actually works and is much more comfortable than it looks, so the new controller is at least pretty good.
 
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assurdum

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Ps4 pro had a higher pixel fillrate over One X, didn’t translate in games .
Not true at all. But surely to be around the 50% less powerful doesn't helps. Now looking to ps5 the faster frequency, the only gap is just the CUs number so I wouldnt be so sure about it's irrelevance
 
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quest

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That's not what I said. I don't think they spent more time on the PS5 optimization, in fact I think they spent less.

Having every platform under one streamlined DirectX12 development roof is exactly what Microsoft wanted. There are profiling modes for 4 Xbox consoles, in theory this can make development very easy.
Yes that why the one x version of some of these games runs worse than the ps4 pro with 50% better everything but CPU but still has better CPU clocks. There is a reason we did not see any xbox series footage of these games until late. It is because they were spending thier time on the more profitable playstation platform. Then last second shit better rush to be sure Microsoft has something release day.
 
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As time goes on, its likely the series x raw power will come through, but even if it holds even, you haven't lost much.
They're so close that it won't make much of a difference either way, MS will never match the expectations they have set.

If one has raw power,both do.
 
Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole
I feel bad for all the Sony fans on this forum that are dancing around right now but will be upset this time next year when devs are delivering games outperforming 99% on the PS5. Right now i'm happy both consoles are performing close but once the dev kits mature a bit on XSX the system will pull ahead a bit and goal posts will shift. I think in the future they will remain close with a slight lead on Xbox platform which is fine.

Assuming it happens of course. I fully expect it to but there's a chance that it might not.

I'm certainly not expecting a delta of 40%-50% though.
 
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Leyasu

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split memory bandwidth, 14 CUs per SA, slower I/O
Lol I asked for something proven and tangible. Not the nonsense wrote by people on here who don’t know what they are talking about. I have not seen one reputable tech site mention anything about the system with a hint of concern since it’s reveal.
 

Dr Bass

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I feel bad for all the Sony fans on this forum that are dancing around right now but will be upset this time next year when devs are delivering games outperforming 99% on the PS5. Right now i'm happy both consoles are performing close but once the dev kits mature a bit on XSX the system will pull ahead a bit and goal posts will shift. I think in the future they will remain close with a slight lead on Xbox platform which is fine.

That was sort of expected from the beginning though. That's normal. But it will still be so close that playing on either platform will be fine.

The initial argument earlier this year was that Xbox X would be running everything at 4k/60 while PS5 would be running things at 1440/30 or some such nonsense. That argument coming from one side of the fence I mean.

Remember the RE8 "insider info"? Everything running amazing on XSX and struggling to maintain a decent frame rate on PS5? Now all of a sudden XSX can't perform right because of "tools" even though MS are supposed to be graphical software experts (DirectX and all that).

The bottom line is this. The consoles are, in the grand scheme of things, pretty close overall. It's going to come down to software and which platform has the better selection. This is where Microsoft has to up their game compared to past generations.
 
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Kerotan

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I wouldn't expect much from this secret sauce if i were you though. Sony always bring this kind of talk at the beginning of each gen, and more than half of it usually turns out to be hot air.

All this about how their special I/O solution "will bring about visuals in ways you've never seen before! All thanks to the high-speed streaming of high quality assets!!!!", but we already have games like Crysis remake running with 8k textures, no secret sauce needed.

Not saying what they did isn't cool, just expect them to be overplaying their hand a lot.
The thing is though Sony aren't talking. It's people and sites like DF doing comparisons and talking. Sony are super humble. Good guy Jim isn't rubbing it in their dominant victories despite constant immature pokes from xbox PR and marketing.
 

silentstorm

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Honestly, both congratulated each other online but Microsoft is a distant third in the console world after the Xbox One failed expectations badly, Sony got used to only caring about facing Nintendo over the last few years.

Sure, the Xbox Series was the biggest launch ever for the brand...i still quickly saw articles and videos about the PS5 getting more views and far more people talking about the PS5 than the Xbox, they are already winning, they don't need to do more than make a few token mentions to Xbox.
 

Dave_at_Home

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Its not like Crysis R needs some insane RAM requirements, seems like even with 16GB you can run it at max.

Also, I forgot to add, but the ps5 isn't the only one bringing optimized I/O to the table either. We could discuss all day which ones are faster and whatnot, throwing a bunch of numbers around, but the truth of the matter is that with everyone bringing new more efficients solutions to the tables, the claims some people make that the PS5 can do miracle stuff or new ways of play thats impossible in other systems (including XSX) is going way too many steps too far.
Thats what i mean when i say to not expect much from this secret sauce of theirs.
It's unfortunate these consoles don't even have a full 16GB of RAM to utilize in games to being with. And of course Series X has fast SSD and I/O as well. My point, considering just how fast PS5's SSD and I/O is, memory constraints are reduced which allows you to crank up the details. Now that's not to say you can't do that with Series X as well, it's just PS5 is next level.
 

Dave_at_Home

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I feel bad for all the Sony fans on this forum that are dancing around right now but will be upset this time next year when devs are delivering games outperforming 99% on the PS5. Right now i'm happy both consoles are performing close but once the dev kits mature a bit on XSX the system will pull ahead a bit and goal posts will shift. I think in the future they will remain close with a slight lead on Xbox platform which is fine.
Even if it's something like 10% better, would that be a victory? I guess if you're hardcore Xbox. I think the reason Sony fans are dancing around is that the narrative of Series X being vastly more powerful simply isn't true. I too expect a slight performance lead overall on Series X in the future, but PS5 may be more efficient with its design overall, thus keeping it closer than people expect. We'll see, though. Although what is clear for the vast majority of gamers is that they're too close for anyone outside of Digital Foundry's 200% zoom to give a shit.
 
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Mar 27, 2020
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Can anyone explain why Sony's devkit is so easy to work with but the XBox GDK is rocket science?

GDK: Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X and PC

Sonys SDK: PS5

Basically I believe that Microsoft's GDK deals with so many platforms that it makes development more difficult for developers. While Sonys SDK only focuses on one console. Not to mention the Direct X overhead vs the PS5s to the metal approach.
 
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sinnergy

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True, but Xbox One X had higher clock speeds compared to PS4 Pro. Clock speeds seem to have a greater impact in RDNA 2 when you look at just how high the desktop version of big Navi clocks.
True but all AMD high end cards have lots more CU's than 36 .. 80.
 

sircaw

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A local pond.
I feel bad for all the Sony fans on this forum that are dancing around right now but will be upset this time next year when devs are delivering games outperforming 99% on the PS5. Right now i'm happy both consoles are performing close but once the dev kits mature a bit on XSX the system will pull ahead a bit and goal posts will shift. I think in the future they will remain close with a slight lead on Xbox platform which is fine.

What a load of crud, come on, you were screaming for xbox, practically sniffing Phils butthole and now it's not in their favor, suddenly your all good and Dandy.

If you were in my Army i would have you tied to a tree and shot, you dirty turncoat you. :messenger_beaming: "lollipop_disappointed:
 
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assurdum

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Lol I asked for something proven and tangible. Not the nonsense wrote by people on here who don’t know what they are talking about. I have not seen one reputable tech site mention anything about the system with a hint of concern since it’s reveal.
What he said is not a nonsense, he mentions the possible hardware difference which could cause performance hit. Speaking of tangible why the early stage of development excuse is the more valuable and respectable? Didn't the same Codemasters debunked that previously? And I don't say to not believe to such thing to be clear just how there isn't anything of tangible in whatever motivation has been mentioned.
 
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ChuckeRearmed

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Sure, the Xbox Series was the biggest launch ever for the brand...i still quickly saw articles and videos about the PS5 getting more views and far more people talking about the PS5 than the Xbox, they are already winning, they don't need to do more than make a few token mentions to Xbox.
Sony is a brand that dominates the markets like European ones. Of course, they will have more views.
 

jroc74

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Even if it's something like 10% better, would that be a victory? I guess if you're hardcore Xbox. I think the reason Sony fans are dancing around is that the narrative of Series X being vastly more powerful simply isn't true. I too expect a slight performance lead overall on Series X in the future, but PS5 may be more efficient with its design overall, thus keeping it closer than people expect. We'll see, though. Although what is clear for the vast majority of gamers is that they're too close for anyone outside of Digital Foundry's 200% zoom to give a shit.
Somehow this is being so overlooked.

If the Series X was performing better right now....what would be the result?

"closer than 2 consoles have ever been before"

On its own the PS5 is performing great is the underlying point that many are missing. Whats causing mass hysteria right now is the PS5 is the console pulling ahead. This was not expected at all for most ppl.

An 8tf, no....9.2tf console...maybe its still 8tf... because of the pitiful variable clocks, overclocking at the last minute.. The PS5 was supposed to be this underpowered mess of a console.




P.S.: Ppl that keep bringing 9.2tf out right now doesnt make the comparisons any better. Thats making it worse.
 
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kyliethicc

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The concept of memory is proof. Even 16 GB is not enough for developers. They always want more memory.

If a game is built around a PS4 or XOne and uses 5 GB of RAM, then sure, the PC port might not need more than say 12-24 GB even at 4K ultra settings.

But console games always use max memory because the devs always want more. Its never enough.
 

kyliethicc

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Lol I asked for something proven and tangible. Not the nonsense wrote by people on here who don’t know what they are talking about. I have not seen one reputable tech site mention anything about the system with a hint of concern since it’s reveal.

Billy Khan from Id Tech about the Xbox S (now Xbox 1st party dev lol.) He says the split memory setup is a major issue. And he knows tech. Hes the lead engine programmer on Doom and Doom Eternal.

So while the X has same 16 GB, it still has major bottleneck of split bandwidth.


 
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Valued Gamer

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This gen for both XSX and PS5 is going to take some time to mature.
RDNA 2 is new even to PC, so no devs have really had much time on it.
Xbox has all new extensions to the API such as VRS, Mesh Shaders, SFS, XVA, Direct ML etc, and these are going to take quite the time to get to master.
 

Valued Gamer

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Billy Khan from Id Tech about the Xbox S (now Xbox 1st party dev lol.) He says the split memory setup is a major issue. And he knows tech. Hes the lead engine programmer on Doom and Doom Eternal.

So while the X has same 16 GB, it still has major bottleneck of split bandwidth.


The X doesn't have bottlenecks with the RAM, talk about FUD. It's faster RAM than the PS5, so if the XSX has a bottleneck, the PS5 is choked.
 

kyliethicc

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The X doesn't have bottlenecks with the RAM, talk about FUD. It's faster RAM than the PS5, so if the XSX has a bottleneck, the PS5 is choked.
6 GB @ 336 GB/s ya idiot, only 10 GB is @560 GB/s and therefore its split bandwidth.

336 < 448 fyi. PS5 is unified, all RAM is 448. Plus a much faster I/O to feed RAM.

Xbox X/S split speeds is a clear issue.
 
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Valued Gamer

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6 GB @ 336 GB/s ya idiot, only 10 GB is @560 GB/s and therefore its split bandwidth.

336 < 448 fyi. PS5 is unified, all RAM is 448. Plus a much faster I/O to feed RAM.

Xbox X/S split speeds is a clear issue.
Did I say it's wasn't a split RAM? No, I said it wasn't a bottleneck. At this point You are just clowning yourself, because you wernt quoting me.
The 3.5 gig of system memory comes off the slow pool.
So 10 gig of 556gbs and 2.5gig of 336gbs (which will be used for audio and CPU, which doesn't require the same speed the GPU does) is what's left over.
Now do your average RAM speed and tell me which one is faster.
So the RAM that feeds the GPU on the XSX is 556gbs, while the RAM that feeds the GPU on the PS5 is only 448gbs.
Looks like the RAM is the bottleneck on the PS5 then. What's the use of that fast IO if the RAM can't feed the GPU as fast as the XSX can.
 

kyliethicc

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Did I say it's wasn't a split RAM? No, I said it wasn't a bottleneck. At this point You are just clowning yourself, because you wernt quoting me.
The 3.5 gig of system memory comes off the slow pool.
So 10 gig of 556gbs and 2.5gig of 336gbs (which will be used for audio and CPU, which doesn't require the same speed the GPU does) is what's left over.
Now do your average RAM speed and tell me which one is faster.
So the RAM that feeds the GPU on the XSX is 556gbs, while the RAM that feeds the GPU on the PS5 is only 448gbs.
Looks like the RAM is the bottleneck on the PS5 then. What's the use of that fast IO if the RAM can't feed the GPU as fast as the XSX can.
lol suuuure as if 448 GB/s is not enough. Thats why the RTX 3070 has 448 GB/s.

The issue is its not as easy as just using 3.5 GB and 10 GB for different bits of data. Each cycle limits the bandwidth speed so any clock cycle using any of the slower 3.5 GB @ 336 GB/s therefore slows all the RAM down until the next cycle. This is why unified speed is better. Every cycle is the same speed.

There are 10 RAM chips. That slow 6 GB is using 6 of the 10 chips. So if any of that 6 is being accessed by the APU, that only leaves 4 chips using 4 of the 10 lanes left, slowing bandwidth. Devs will need to program around the split speeds to avoid bottlenecking the GPU. Every GPU cycle can't be getting all 10 GB @ 560 GB/s unless the APU is not using any of the 6 GB. Devs can't just relocate data in RAM to where ever they want either. It takes time. Any time spent moving that data around in RAM to fit to the split speeds also costs performance. Cycles wasted.

There are far more technical write ups on this issue than I can recall or explain from my brain's memory.

This is what a bottleneck is. It will take lots of time for devs to optimize to avoid this issue.
 
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Leyasu

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What he said is not a nonsense, he mentions the possible hardware difference which could cause performance hit. Speaking of tangible why the early stage of development excuse is the more valuable and respectable? Didn't the same Codemasters debunked that previously? And I don't say to not believe to such thing to be clear just how there isn't anything of tangible in whatever motivation has been mentioned.

What he said is speculation, coupled with the fact that we now have people on forums thinking that they know more than the architects that spent years working with AMD on the system, and hundreds of millions to get there.

Also, does anyone honestly think that Codemasters or Ubi are going to say that there games needed a bit more time in the oven, and that they will patch them shortly?
 
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Who touches their console though? Mine has zero fingerprints because I washed my hands before setting it up and haven't touched it since.
Say that to the guys who are eating Doritos during gaming and not washing theyr hands everytime they touch theyr console, you are an exception😉
 

Valued Gamer

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lol suuuure as if 448 GB/s is not enough. Thats why the RTX 3070 has 448 GB/s.

The issue is its not as easy as just using 3.5 GB and 10 GB for different bits of data. Each cycle limits the bandwidth speed so any clock cycle using any of the slower 3.5 GB @ 336 GB/s therefore slows all the RAM down until the next cycle. This is why unified speed is better. Every cycle is the same speed.

There are 10 RAM chips. That slow 6 GB is using 6 of the 10 chips. So if any of that 6 is being accessed by the APU, that only leaves 4 chips using 4 of the 10 lanes left, slowing bandwidth. Devs will need to program around the split speeds to avoid bottlenecking the GPU. Every GPU cycle can't be getting all 10 GB @ 560 GB/s unless the APU is not using any of the 6 GB. Devs can't just relocate data in RAM to where ever they want either. It takes time. Any time spent moving that data around in RAM to fit to the split speeds also costs performance. Cycles wasted.

There are far more technical write ups on this issue than I can recall or explain from my brain's memory.

This is what a bottleneck is. It will take lots of time for devs to optimize to avoid this issue.
That FUD has been debunked.
The XSX can use the full 10gb at 556gbs, while using the slower pool at the same time. Accessing one doesn't limit the other.
The fact remains that the GPU is fed by 556gbs of RAM. That is faster than the PS5 does.
I'm glad you brought up the 3070 in your reply, saying that if the speed of 448gbs is enough for the 3070 then it's fine for the PS5. So when your next argument comes that limiting the fast pool to 10gb isn't enough because a game might need more and then the XSX is going to have to use the slow RAM which will cause a bottleneck, when I bring up how the 3070 only has 8gb of VRAM you will also have to accept that 10gb is plenty for the XSX.
 
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mhirano

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That FUD has been debunked.
The XSX can use the full 10gb at 556gbs, while using the slower pool at the same time. Accessing one doesn't limit the other.
The fact remains that the GPU is fed by 556gbs of RAM. That is faster than the PS5 does.
I'm glad you brought up the 3070 in your reply, saying that if the speed of 448gbs is enough for the 3070 then it's fine for the PS5. So when your next argument comes that limiting the fast pool to 10gb isn't enough because a game might need more and then the XSX is going to have to use the slow RAM which will cause a bottleneck, when I bring up how the 3070 only has 8gb of VRAM you will also have to accept that 10gb is plenty for the XSX.
Not comparable.
3070 is 8GB of VRAM only.
Series X: 10GB to be used as VRAM and System RAM
 

assurdum

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What he said is speculation, coupled with the fact that we now have people on forums thinking that they know more than the architects that spent years working with AMD on the system, and hundreds of millions to get there.

Also, does anyone honestly think that Codemasters or Ubi are going to say that there games needed a bit more time in the oven, and that they will patch them shortly?
Speculation? In what why he speculates, just presuming something? There is nothing wrong to try to presume things. The hell it has to do AMD competence, splitted RAM in the same bus it's not common and it could needs to turn around to the data management to avoid possible bottlenecks.
 

assurdum

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That FUD has been debunked.
The XSX can use the full 10gb at 556gbs, while using the slower pool at the same time. Accessing one doesn't limit the other.
The fact remains that the GPU is fed by 556gbs of RAM. That is faster than the PS5 does.
I'm glad you brought up the 3070 in your reply, saying that if the speed of 448gbs is enough for the 3070 then it's fine for the PS5. So when your next argument comes that limiting the fast pool to 10gb isn't enough because a game might need more and then the XSX is going to have to use the slow RAM which will cause a bottleneck, when I bring up how the 3070 only has 8gb of VRAM you will also have to accept that 10gb is plenty for the XSX.
Debunked to who? You can't use the same bandwidth with 2 different speed in the same time, it's physically impossible. It would means series X has 560 GBs+332GBs in the same time (I don't remind the exact counts of the cpu side) so 893 GBs available. That's quite false.
 
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