Support NeoGAF

[Heisenberg007]

Is RGT a trusted source? It seems like the same thing what others have been saying on the internet (without any definite proof).

 

[THE DUCK]

Xbox Series X is performing worse then the competition, in spite being more powerful.
No AAA launch exclusive titles for the console (must be a first in console history).

Simply put, Microsoft wasn't ready to launch the Xbox Series.

Not sure what kind of alternate reality you live in, even more disturbing that you had 3 up votes for this garbage. Its not even remotely performing worse than the competition, at best you could make the arguement that they are equal.

I have some land on the moon I'd like to sell you.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

Not sure what kind of alternate reality you live in, even more disturbing that you had 3 up votes for this garbage. Its not even remotely performing worse than the competition, at best you could make the arguement that they are equal.

I have some land on the moon I'd like to sell you.

It’s four up votes now. Check.

 

[sinnergy]

MS created an entirely new GDK called GameCore. Essentially a PC/Xbox combo. Thus all games work for both platforms and it’s incredibly easy to switch between them. Overtime this will align PC an Console development and make it very easy to have both with almost no porting.

Sony took PS4 SDK and upgraded it for PS5. Thus everything is familiar and just improved. Anyone on PS5 sdk is essentially using something they’ve seen for 7 years. Xbox is a new platform with stuff to be worked out.

Yes a refactoring of the tools , which eventually will benefit you in the future.

 

[mhirano]

Not sure what kind of alternate reality you live in, even more disturbing that you had 3 up votes for this garbage. Its not even remotely performing worse than the competition, at best you could make the arguement that they are equal.

I have some land on the moon I'd like to sell you.

AC Valhalla: worse framerate and bad tearing
DMC5 120fps mode: worse framerate
Dirt 5: worse performance, worse visual setting, tearing

All of that despite having 20% more compute power (12 vs 10 TFlops)

How is that not performing worse?
Or should we say: Series X is performing worse (than expected)?

 

[THE DUCK]

AC Valhalla: worse framerate and bad tearing
DMC5 120fps mode: worse framerate
Dirt 5: worse performance, worse visual setting, tearing

All of that despite having 20% more compute power (12 vs 10 TFlops)

How is that not performing worse?
Or should we say: Series X is performing worse (than expected)?

You could maybe get away with saying series X is performing worse than expected on some games, not all. What is the percentage difference for the average gamer? Probably zero.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

You could maybe get away with saying series X is performing worse than expected on some games, not all. What is the percentage difference for the average gamer? Probably zero.

Then perhaps, you can at least agree that Series X is not clearly superior for running third party multiplat games over PS5?

 

[Hugare]

Tools, bugs, late dev kits, misleading marketing, lack of Cerny Sauce, etc.

So that wasn't liquid metal after all ...

 

[DarkMage619]

Not necessarily. An exclusive can be cut down until performance targets are met.
We would never know Dirt 5 Xbox version was trash if not for the PS5 version showing us how it was supposed to look.

So Gears 5 running at 4k with higher than PC settings was cut down? That is a game that can be compared to PC. Are determined to say Xbox has some sort of performance despite other evidence? Doesn't Forza 4 look and run better than Dirt 5? Yet Dirt 5 proves a problem with XSX? It appears too early to draw an conclusions other than excellent tools on PS5 targeting very few platforms.

 

[Dampf]

A PC GPU is only holding graphics data in the VRAM. The consoles GDDR is shared for all data.

Indeed. People forget the GPU optimized memory of 10 GB in the consoles is just that, GPU optimized memory. It doesn't mean it is exclusively for graphics related stuff, like VRAM on the PC. On Series X, 3.5 GB is intended for the CPU by using the slower Bus. For next gen games and CPU intensive current gen games, I do not think 3.5 GB is enough as RAM. Meaning the CPU will then have to access more than 3.5 GB and does so by using the 10 GB optimized memory as RAM, which naturally then reduces the amount of memory for the graphics.

We all see this in full effect in games like Watch Dogs Legion, which is using the medium quality textures alongside DXR, while a PC with 8 GB dedicated VRAM has no issues using the high texture pack at high settings and DXR at 1440p.
The Series S is way worse off of course, giving it just has 7.5 GB usable memory. If 3.5 GB is meant to be used by the CPU like the Series X, then that means around 4 GB as graphics memory. However as we see in Sea of Thieves, a 4 GB dedicated PC card is capable of using mystical texture setting and seemingly have no issues, while Series S has to reduce texture quality by a lot (though I may have to do some further research on this, because there is a possibility the textures stream dynamically in lower res) In the worst case for the PC card, 4 GB should be pretty equal to Series S.

That sounds terrible at first because it's not a step up from current gen. However, the consoles were build with two techniques in mind that are not used in current generation games, Sampler Feedback and data streaming via DirectStorage. Sampler Feedback allows for much finer control of texture mip levels and increases effective memory by around 2.5x compared to previous generations. Once that is utilized, even Series S has a lot more effective RAM available than current generation. That will allow for the next generational jump in asset and texture quality even on Series S, alongside DirectStorage for SSD data streaming rather than just decreasing loading times.

So yeah those current/cross generation games are not even close to fully utilize next gen consoles (and PC hardware for that matter)

 

[Shaukdotdj]

Wait....what? You are giving Microsoft a pass for a "year or two"?

I thought that was why they came up with the "all access" thing. $25 a month for 24mo to pay off your Xbox Series X, and includes gamepass ultimate to boot, since there's nothing new to play yet. XD

 

[Thirty7ven]

Wait....what? You are giving Microsoft a pass for a "year or two"?

Brother been giving MS a pass for ten years, what’s another one or two.

 

[Guilty_AI]

It's unfortunate these consoles don't even have a full 16GB of RAM to utilize in games to being with. And of course Series X has fast SSD and I/O as well. My point, considering just how fast PS5's SSD and I/O is, memory constraints are reduced which allows you to crank up the details. Now that's not to say you can't do that with Series X as well, it's just PS5 is next level.

GPU budgets are still a thing. As i've been saying, being able to stream assets faster is good and does provides benefits, but won't do miracles.
I've seen some people thinking this'll get them games with no pop-in's or infinite draw distances. It won't.
At best what this'll do is allow levels and maps to be designed without having to take the loading of assets into account, and we'll see that on every platform not just the ps5.

If the ps5's is indeed "next level" as you're saying, considering other platforms are also introducing darn fast solutions and the target resolution of next-gen games, its likely that the differences won't even be noticeable for the end user.

The thing is though Sony aren't talking. It's people and sites like DF doing comparisons and talking. Sony are super humble. Good guy Jim isn't rubbing it in their dominant victories despite constant immature pokes from xbox PR and marketing.

Sony isn't stupid, when they do these press conferences and tech talk, they do it fully expecting people to hail their platform.
In fact, they're targeting that exact reaction.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

GPU budgets are still a thing. As i've been saying, being able to stream assets faster is good and does provides benefits, but won't do miracles.
I've seen some people thinking this'll get them games with no pop-in's or infinite draw distances. It won't.
At best what this'll do is allow levels and maps to be designed without having to take the loading of assets into account, and we'll see that on every platform not just the ps5.

If the ps5's is indeed "next level" as you're saying, considering other platforms are also introducing darn fast solutions and the target resolution of next-gen games, its likely that the differences won't even be noticeable for the end user.


Sony isn't stupid, when they do these press conferences and tech talk, they do it fully expecting people to hail their platform.
In fact, they're targeting that exact reaction.

I don't think we're in disagreement here. I think it's clear Sony first-party will be the ones pulling out all the stops when it comes to the SSD and I/O solution. Maybe we'll be surprised by some third-party stuff but who knows.

Edit: Very curious to know how much data was being streamed into RAM from that Unreal PS5 demo.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I think it's clear Sony first-party will be the ones pulling out all the stops when it comes to the SSD and I/O solution. Maybe we'll be surprised by some third-party stuff but who knows.

That'll be very hard to tell, unless they start porting their games to PC.

 

[Interfectum]

Wait....what? You are giving Microsoft a pass for a "year or two"?

By the time these 'tools' reach maturity we'll be seeing hype for PS5 Pro and Xbox Series X2 and the argument starts all over again.

 

[assurdum]

You don't think Microsoft did not run the split ram through a simulator 10s of thousands of times or more before adding significant BOM of the console? They could of easily just did what Sony did and shave off some money on the BOM. It was done because both ran into issues of getting higher clocks on ram. This was the solution to squeeze some extra performance out of the clocks they could squeeze out of the ram. You think they did this for marketing and intentionally tanked performance?

Their priorities is multiplat development. If you think they splitted the RAM just for the sake of series X hardware performance, you are a delusional. Now I'm not saying they haven't tried their best for the series X hardware. But I don't see their approach favour at all the optimal performance in the new console. Hell the CPU latency excuse for the GDDR has been solved after the PS4, never heard of complications about it by any developers. And now MS want to make believe to us is still better split the RAM on console? Bullshits. It's more convenient for their strategy to have a console more close to the pc environment, that's it.

 

[Topher]

By the time these 'tools' reach maturity we'll be seeing hype for PS5 Pro and Xbox Series X2 and the argument starts all over again.

Ugh....just think about that a minute. You bought the world's "most powerful console" that doesn't actually realize its potential until more powerful consoles are available? That's a kick to the nuts for sure.

Hopefully that won't be the case.

 

[Interfectum]

Ugh....just think about that a minute. You bought the world's "most powerful console" that doesn't actually realize its potential until more powerful consoles are available? That's a kick to the nuts for sure.

Hopefully that won't be the case.

And what most people don't realize is by the time this legendary GDK makes games look a tiny bit better on Series X, most won't give a shit. The damage has already been done. Nothing the GDK can do will make the games look so much better on Series X that it changes people's purchasing decision. It's all damage control and the new 'secret sauce.'

 

[Heisenberg007]

And what most people don't realize is by the time this legendary GDK makes games look a tiny bit better on Series X, most won't give a shit. The damage has already been done. Nothing the GDK can do will make the games look so much better on Series X that it changes people's purchasing decision. It's all damage control and the new 'secret sauce.'

Then the next excuse will be: "As PS5 outsold XSX, devs are clearly optimizing the game for PS5 first and just porting the game on XSX with the same settings, even though XSX has more potential. Damn those lazy devs!"

 

[QuantumZebra]

Been filling my bathtub for 2 weeks almost and it's still not full.

Cerny Magic.

 

[Zannrebel]

Bandwidth is relative to GPU. The S at 224 is good enough for 1080, the PS4 Pro only had 217 and was running games over 1080p. And the Sbox runs Dirt 5 at sub-720p lol so its not a high resolution gaming console.

The huge flaw for the S is it only gives devs 7.5 GB of RAM when last gen was 5 GB. That's basically the same for the devs. Barely any better. And the bandwidth is not unified. 2 GB of the 10 is at 56 GB/s cause of the 128 bit bus and uneven RAM setup. 56 GB/s is fucking DDR speeds, not GDDR speeds. Thats a bottlneck cause it takes away total bandwidth from the devs, because its a poor setup.

Series X is just as poor, it just doesn't lack for total amount of memory. But the fact the XSX GPU has 52 CUs, and will in real world performance when running games it will have less bandwidth than the PS5 (which has far fewer shaders that need to be fed work to do, and each CU in the PS5 is running faster) is bad. Its a clear issue.

Thats why it will take lots of time for devs to find workarounds for their code to get the system running at an optimal level. Thats what's hes saying. It will be an issue for both Xboxes for 3rd party devs because the PS5 is not like this, so they'll need to adjust their code on just xboxes, which is not the lead platform for most 3rd parties.

It won't have less bandwith than PS5. The hit reduction is around 50-60gb/s when a game needs more than the 10gb at 556GB/s. Still averages more than PS5. This was explained months ago by devs.

 

[kyliethicc]

It won't have less bandwith than PS5. The hit reduction is around 50-60gb/s when a game needs more than the 10gb at 556GB/s. Still averages more than PS5. This was explained months ago by devs.

Not when you look at the relative sizes of both GPUs. The Xbox has more shaders to be fed data, and will likely end up starved.

Keep in mind,

Shader occupancy is a challenge, more shaders doesn't always equal more performance.
A GPU with more shaders needs more relative bandwidth.
Slower clocked GPUs are at a disadvantage compared to a faster clocked GPU.
I/O speeds feed RAM and RAM feeds the SOC, so slower I/O can hold back the APU from max performance.

 

[LittleBusters]

Not when you look at the relative sizes of both GPUs. The Xbox has more shaders to be fed data, and will likely end up starved.

Keep in mind,

Shader occupancy is a challenge, more shaders doesn't always equal more performance.
A GPU with more shaders needs more relative bandwidth.
Slower clocked GPUs are at a disadvantage compared to a faster clocked GPU.
I/O speeds feed RAM and RAM feeds the SOC, so slower I/O can hold back the APU from max performance.

Again, even the 'slower' RAM pool is insanely fast and more than enough to fill the shaders. I'm really really really tired of this anti-XBox Series X FUD and hysteria.

 

[Interfectum]

Again, even the 'slower' RAM pool is insanely fast and more than enough to fill the shaders. I'm really really really tired of this anti-XBox Series X FUD and hysteria.

Blame the used car salesman Phil Spencer on overselling what Series X can do. MS and it's fans have been hyping Series X has the place to get ports and "wait for DF videos and ponies will be in hiding" since March. Play shitty games, win shitty prizes.

 

[kyliethicc]

Again, even the 'slower' RAM pool is insanely fast and more than enough to fill the shaders. I'm really really really tired of this anti-XBox Series X FUD and hysteria.

For 4K gaming modern GPUs, 336 GB/s is not insanely fast, its a bit slow.

 

[gooner4life_uk]

Like anything, you're only ever as fast as your slowest part, the 6gb pool of memory will bring the bandwidth down for all 16gb once it needs to be used, this will be what's causing devs problems.

 

[LittleBusters]

Like anything, you're only ever as fast as your slowest part, the 6gb pool of memory will bring the bandwidth down for all 16gb once it needs to be used, this will be what's causing devs problems.

Does even CP 2077 need 16GB of super fast RAM to do 4k/60fps? To me this is all FUD. Now it may be the case that for 8K gaming you'd need 560Gbps RAM across the entire pool, but I don't believe Microsoft's claim on 8K gaming. Just like they made a claim about 4K gaming in 2013 and that never materialized until X1X.

 

[PhaseJump]

Blame the used car salesman Phil Spencer on overselling what Series X can do. MS and it's fans have been hyping Series X has the place to get ports and "wait for DF videos and ponies will be in hiding" since March. Play shitty games, win shitty prizes.

The Xbox is a superior platform on paper, they offer the better value to new users, they have a ton of new developers working on stuff, they are still looking at acquiring new studios.

Be patient. PS5 zealots will be forced to eat shit in due time. This is the generation where Phil Spencer will likely retire. His replacement will probably have corporate troll-blood flowing through their veins like the living monstrosity that took over Playstation. I expect the next-gen Phil Spencer to casually slip on the exclusivity gauntlet and to snap their fingers to win over the fan base. Sega will be acquired on a Wednesday.

All doubters of this outcome should be referred to Lord Gaben for divine punishment.

 

[Godfavor]

Like anything, you're only ever as fast as your slowest part, the 6gb pool of memory will bring the bandwidth down for all 16gb once it needs to be used, this will be what's causing devs problems.

So PC with seperate ddr4 pools and the monstrous 3090 will have to wait the 3200mhz ddr4 to finish the job in a cycle?
Just a thought

 

[MrFunSocks]

Is RGT a trusted source? It seems like the same thing what others have been saying on the internet (without any definite proof).

They were the other week when they were saying positive stuff about the PS5. Now they're full of shit apparently.

Like anything, you're only ever as fast as your slowest part, the 6gb pool of memory will bring the bandwidth down for all 16gb once it needs to be used, this will be what's causing devs problems.

3.5GB of that is reserved for the OS. The CPU doesn't need super fast RAM, so it first uses the remaining 2.5GB of that slower RAM. The GPU is the one using the super fast RAM. It's fine.

 

[Topher]

They were the other week when they were saying positive stuff about the PS5. Now they're full of shit apparently.

The same "they" or different "they"? They can be different people from one instance to the next unless you are talking about specific members.

 

[spawn]

 

[gooner4life_uk]

So PC with seperate ddr4 pools and the monstrous 3090 will have to wait the 3200mhz ddr4 to finish the job in a cycle?
Just a thought

It's a totally different setup on a PC.

 

[llien]

Not going to click on clickbaity video.

Could some kind soul tell what "performance issues" is it referring to (as for "why that happened" is a totally different story).

 

[Godfavor]

It's a totally different setup on a PC.

Why? Because the pool is separated so the bandwidth of ddr3/4 adds up?
I thought that having a unified pool removes some of the bottlenecks

 

[Mobilemofo]

Those people are making the same mistake when people believed in the 12 > 10 campaign. They are still 100% behind that "most powerful console" marketing campaign from MS. Basically they are still in denial.

Little did they realise the Xbox will never get to 12 terraflops. Never.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Sony have the better tools because they took COVID seriously and planned ahead for contingencies, whereas MS made jokes on Twitter and now their chickens are coming home to roost.

In all seriousness, I'm fairly sure the performance delta will narrow in a few months and both consoles will perform very similarly in third party games.

The performance will sail past the PS5 in a few months, whatever the reason, and no matter hod bad the fanoys delude themselves, physics is still physics and it cannot be broken.

 

[gooner4life_uk]

Why? Because the pool is separated so the bandwidth of ddr3/4 adds up?
I thought that having a unified pool removes some of the bottlenecks

With Xbox memory config imagine you have a tunnel with 2 lanes 1 at 100mph and 1 at 60mph. XSX has 10 cars going 100mph and 6 cars going 60mph, if the 100mph lane all has the GPU as the destination that's great, but if there's traffic and we need to use the other lane, then even the 100mph lane has to slow down because it's waiting on deliveries from the slower lane.

 

[Jokerevo]

Wasn't the narrative that the Xbox being PC-like was going to benefit from more efficient PC workflow? To me it seems the real problem here is having to optimise your game for 2 configs whose power disparity is too wide. TLDR: The Xss is dragging the XsX down.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

The performance will sail past the PS5 in a few months, whatever the reason, and no matter hod bad the fanoys delude themselves, physics is still physics and it cannot be broken.

That was basically the slogan for the Atari Jaguar.
The mould for the Jaguar console was later sold to a dental company. Because no matter how badly Jagular claimed to be so much more powerful, they failed to demonstrate it with actual games. Because physics is theoretical, actual results is what gamers want.

And history also show that trying to tap into theoretical power is possible, but usually come too late. If you can't show what you can do at launch with actual games, you can't expect anyone to stick around for you to fix things.

Go learn some history of past doomed Game consoles; you might realise that all the mistakes had already been made before elsewhere.

 

[M1chl]

That was basically the slogan for the Atari Jaguar.
The mould for the Jaguar console was later sold to a dental company. Because no matter how badly Jagular claimed to be so much more powerful, they failed to demonstrate it with actual games. Because physics is theoretical, actual results is what gamers want.

And history also show that trying to tap into theoretical power is possible, but usually come too late. If you can't show what you can do at launch with actual games, you can't expect anyone to stick around for you to fix things.

Go learn some history of past doomed Game consoles; you might realise that all the mistakes had already been made before elsewhere.

I mean past consoles had vastly different architecture, nowadays is basically same. But I agree, that we should cosider results to be king.

 

[Hendrick's]

It’s four up votes now. Check.

I just added a "triggered" for balance.

 

[MilkyJoe]

That was basically the slogan for the Atari Jaguar.
The mould for the Jaguar console was later sold to a dental company. Because no matter how badly Jagular claimed to be so much more powerful, they failed to demonstrate it with actual games. Because physics is theoretical, actual results is what gamers want.

And history also show that trying to tap into theoretical power is possible, but usually come too late. If you can't show what you can do at launch with actual games, you can't expect anyone to stick around for you to fix things.

Go learn some history of past doomed Game consoles; you might realise that all the mistakes had already been made before elsewhere.

HA HA HA Gooode one. These are using basically the same guts, but one is faster in every way. That leaves the software.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

HA HA HA Gooode one. These are using basically the same guts, but one is faster in every way. That leaves the software.

Ah, yes. The Software. The one thing Xbox was definitely behind on for the last two gaming generations. Well, we will see if this time would be any different. Halo Infinite was not a good start.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Ah, yes. The Software. The one thing Xbox was definitely behind on for the last two gaming generations. Well, we will see if this time would be any different. Halo Infinite was not a good start.

Talking about the tools, wally chops

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Talking about the tools, wally chops

At this point, there is no factual basis to claim MS had superior programmers. If they were so good, maybe they could fix the Windows store?

Don't mistaken wealth for competence.

 

[Marcus Aurelius]

We'll probably know for sure next year, developers will have had enough time then.

 

[MilkyJoe]

At this point, there is no factual basis to claim MS had superior programmers. If they were so good, maybe they could fix the Windows store?

Don't mistaken wealth for competence.

I'm saying the tools are obviously underdeveloped und hence the issues, as raw specs on the same architecture are what they are. Once the issues are ironed out, it'll be clear wins for one console.

 

[Godfavor]

With Xbox memory config imagine you have a tunnel with 2 lanes 1 at 100mph and 1 at 60mph. XSX has 10 cars going 100mph and 6 cars going 60mph, if the 100mph lane all has the GPU as the destination that's great, but if there's traffic and we need to use the other lane, then even the 100mph lane has to slow down because it's waiting on deliveries from the slower lane.

That's the same thing like on a pc gpu which has a standard (usually low) amount of vram. If it is vram starved it gets help from the separate ddr3-4 ram of your normal ram.

So the series x is like having 10gb vram. But it can actually "borrow" some ram from the slower pool if needed that it will cost some speed,but what if the slow ram is used for cpu audio?