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RedGamingTech: Xbox Series X Hot Chips Analysis Part 1 - GPU, CPU & Overview

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As i just stated abover rumble motors can't provide any resistance nor blocking the button.
as you probably did not even see in the pics you uploaded, the mechanism is geared towards the trigger
so yes, it does provide programmable resistance, as it can vary from almost unoticeable to shaking your finger and the entire upper part of the joypad too.
it does not "block the button" from being depressed if you want to depress it, but the resistance and the effect is very very very noticeable.
 
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I think Xbox Series X support 400 sound sources or something like that


Edit: over 300 channels



Is one of those HRTF? I read that Digital Foundry said it had HRTF support but I'm not seeing it in any of the slides that I've seen.

Maybe it was mentioned during the talk?

as you probably did not even see in the pics you uploaded, the mechanism is geared towards the trigger
so yes, it does provide programmable resistance, as it can vary from almost unoticeable to shaking your finger and the entire upper part of the joypad too.
it does not "block the button" from being depressed if you want to depress it, but the resistance and the effect is very very very noticeable.

It really doesn't sound like the same thing that the DualSense is doing.

"In games like Deathloop, developers use the adaptive triggers to make weapons feel different from one another, and when a weapon jams, the trigger will jam too. In Ghostwire: Tokyo the adaptive triggers give players a sense of recoil, and in Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart, the adaptive trigger is used when you fire a dual-barreled shotgun type weapon. As you pull the trigger, you’ll fire from one barrel and feel resistance halfway down the trigger. If you pull the trigger through that resistance, you’ll fire from both barrels at the same time."

I personally have never noticed anything like this in the games that I've played on my X1X. I felt rumble but nothing that made the trigger alot harder to pull for example.


The teardown for the DualSense has got to be pretty interesting.

Edit: Found this video and it just seems like this just rumble in the triggers.

 
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3liteDragon

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According to Anandtech it supports 300 channels.
Wait why isn’t anybody talking about this then? Ok, here’s what I think is going on,(audio experts, feel free to correct me) MS here is showing the amount of sound sources/channels it’s audio chip is CAPABLE of processing (300 channels/sound sources) but it doesn’t have it’s own algorithms that can FULLY take advantage of it’s audio hardware. It uses Dolby Atmos’ algorithms which supports 32 real-time channels for games, meaning that the Series X’s audio chip has MORE THAN ENOUGH horsepower to process 32 Atmos sound sources.


Mark Cerny said that using Dolby Atmos’ algorithms would’ve made everything easier but they didn’t go that route due to it’s sound source limit for games, which is why they decided to write their OWN algorithms for headsets, surround sound speakers and TVs that actually take full advantage of the Tempest engine to provide “hundreds” of sound sources. So, what I’m saying is that MS has the hardware to support 300 real-time sound sources but are sticking with Dolby Atmos which doesn’t take full advantage of their hardware. BUT, this means that MS can develop their own algorithms that ACTUALLY support way more than just 32 channels because they already have the hardware that’s capable of processing that many channels, but for now I guess they chose to stick with Dolby Atmos.
 
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Dnice1

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Nice, but how many sound sources are being processed? On the Hot Chips slide, it says the Series X supports Dolby Atmos, DTS:X (surround sound speakers) and Windows Sonic. As far as I know, Atmos supports 32 sound sources, PS5 supports 100+ sound sources that can have 3D effects applied to them while being processed by the engine.

Microsoft listed as >300 sound sources. Sony has only said "hundreds of sound sources" for PS5. Dolby Atmos can also support hundreds of sound sources, but have limited it to 32 via advice from developer.

Is it true Dolby Atmos is capped at 32 objects?
No, that is incorrect. As a technology, Dolby Atmos can support hundreds of simultaneous objects.

That being said, we fall back on sage advice from developers of some of the first Atmos games: objects are a fantastic tool, but restraint should be shown with respect to the number of objects active at any time. Too many objects in motion can create a confusing soundscape.

Developers have also told us that avoiding the horizontal "bed" for an all-object mix is an unnecessarily time-consuming and labor-intensive effort. So far, developers are creating next-generation mixes by blending bed audio and object audio. More is good, but more may not necessarily be "better."

DTS: X can actually support an unlimited number of sound sources/objects. Of course its hardware bound but the format is open ended. My understanding is Sony doesn't plan on supporting Dolby Atmos or DTS: X on PS5. Those are the two dominate audio formats on A/V receivers and uHD blu-ray movies.
 

Black_Stride

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Is one of those HRTF? I read that Digital Foundry said it had HRTF support but I'm not seeing it in any of the slides that I've seen.

Maybe it was mentioned during the talk?

The Xbox One has HRTF support with Sonic, DTS:X and Atmos.....you think the Series X will lose HRTF support?
 

Nikana

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Wait why isn’t anybody talking about this then? Ok, here’s what I think is going on,(audio experts, feel free to correct me) MS here is showing the amount of sound sources/channels it’s audio chip is CAPABLE of processing (300 channels/sound sources) but it doesn’t have it’s own algorithms that can FULLY take advantage of it’s audio hardware. It uses Dolby Atmos’ algorithms which supports 32 real-time channels for games, meaning that the Series X’s audio chip has MORE THAN ENOUGH horsepower to process 32 Atmos sound sources.


Mark Cerny said that using Dolby Atmos’ algorithms would’ve made everything easier but they didn’t go that route due to it’s sound source limit for games, which is why they decided to write their OWN algorithms for headsets, surround sound speakers and TVs that actually take full advantage of the Tempest engine to provide “hundreds” of sound sources. So, what I’m saying is that MS has the hardware to support 300 real-time sound sources but are sticking with Dolby Atmos which doesn’t take full advantage of their hardware. BUT, this means that MS can develop their own algorithms that ACTUALLY support way more than just 32 channels because they already have the hardware that’s capable of processing that many channels, but for now I guess they chose to stick with Dolby Atmos.

Quoting sound sources is the equivalent of PR dick measuring.

It means nothing of any real substance.

It's what you do with the sound that matters. More sources does not equate to better sound.
 
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Panajev2001a

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Wait why isn’t anybody talking about this then? Ok, here’s what I think is going on,(audio experts, feel free to correct me) MS here is showing the amount of sound sources/channels it’s audio chip is CAPABLE of processing (300 channels/sound sources) but it doesn’t have it’s own algorithms that can FULLY take advantage of it’s audio hardware. It uses Dolby Atmos’ algorithms which supports 32 real-time channels for games, meaning that the Series X’s audio chip has MORE THAN ENOUGH horsepower to process 32 Atmos sound sources.


Mark Cerny said that using Dolby Atmos’ algorithms would’ve made everything easier but they didn’t go that route due to it’s sound source limit for games, which is why they decided to write their OWN algorithms for headsets, surround sound speakers and TVs that actually take full advantage of the Tempest engine to provide “hundreds” of sound sources. So, what I’m saying is that MS has the hardware to support 300 real-time sound sources but are sticking with Dolby Atmos which doesn’t take full advantage of their hardware. BUT, this means that MS can develop their own algorithms that ACTUALLY support way more than just 32 channels because they already have the hardware that’s capable of processing that many channels, but for now I guess they chose to stick with Dolby Atmos.

It depends on what kind of processing you do with those sound sources, it becomes meaningless dick measuring yes. In Road to PS5, Cerny mentioned that if they used the same 3D positional audio processing done by the PSVR breakout box they could have processed many thousand sound sources on Tempest for example...
 

3liteDragon

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Dolby Atmos can also support hundreds of sound sources, but have limited it to 32 via advice from developer.

It uses Dolby Atmos’ algorithms which supports 32 real-time channels for games, meaning that the Series X’s audio chip has MORE THAN ENOUGH horsepower to process 32 Atmos sound sources.


My understanding is Sony doesn't plan on supporting Dolby Atmos or DTS: X on PS5. Those are the two dominate audio formats on A/V receivers and uHD blu-ray movies.
That’s because Sony’s developing their own sound algorithms for headsets, surround sound speakers, stereo speakers and even TVs, they’re just not using existing formats like DTS:X or Dolby Atmos. Meaning they still support a variety of different of audio output devices and formats, just that they opted to use their own algorithms instead of using existing ones.


 
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jimbojim

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as you probably did not even see in the pics you uploaded, the mechanism is geared towards the trigger
so yes, it does provide programmable resistance, as it can vary from almost unoticeable to shaking your finger and the entire upper part of the joypad too.
it does not "block the button" from being depressed if you want to depress it, but the resistance and the effect is very very very noticeable.



There is no other mechanism other than rumble motors and rumble motor cannot provide any resistance. How on earth rotating eccentric weight can provide a tiny resistance. LOL. That tiny rumble motor just rumble. Just rotating and rotating. Sometimes weaker, sometimes stronger which creates vibration. And that's it.
That is not the same and not even close to the adaptive triggers.
 
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3liteDragon

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It's what you do with the sound that matters. More sources does not equate to better sound.
True but at the same time, the more sound sources you have, the more freedom an audio developer has when choosing which sound channels he/she can apply 3D effects to, since they have way more to choose from. But yea I get what you mean with the whole PR thing, I’m just excited we’re getting 3D audio on these consoles, cause while I appreciate the graphics performance improvements we got this generation, I never felt “immersed“ while playing these games. I always felt like 3D audio was the missing ingredient, so I’m happy now that we’re getting that with even more improvements to GPU and especially CPU performance for a price that’s way lower than smartphones which is INSANE value.
 

Jboemios

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Wait why isn’t anybody talking about this then? Ok, here’s what I think is going on,(audio experts, feel free to correct me) MS here is showing the amount of sound sources/channels it’s audio chip is CAPABLE of processing (300 channels/sound sources) but it doesn’t have it’s own algorithms that can FULLY take advantage of it’s audio hardware. It uses Dolby Atmos’ algorithms which supports 32 real-time channels for games, meaning that the Series X’s audio chip has MORE THAN ENOUGH horsepower to process 32 Atmos sound sources.


Mark Cerny said that using Dolby Atmos’ algorithms would’ve made everything easier but they didn’t go that route due to it’s sound source limit for games, which is why they decided to write their OWN algorithms for headsets, surround sound speakers and TVs that actually take full advantage of the Tempest engine to provide “hundreds” of sound sources. So, what I’m saying is that MS has the hardware to support 300 real-time sound sources but are sticking with Dolby Atmos which doesn’t take full advantage of their hardware. BUT, this means that MS can develop their own algorithms that ACTUALLY support way more than just 32 channels because they already have the hardware that’s capable of processing that many channels, but for now I guess they chose to stick with Dolby Atmos.
Wrong. https://wccftech.com/dolby-atmos-can-also-support-hundreds-of-objects-like-ps5s-tempest-says-dolby/
 

3liteDragon

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Is it true Dolby Atmos is capped at 32 objects?

No, that is incorrect. As a technology, Dolby Atmos can support hundreds of simultaneous objects.

That being said, we fall back on sage advice from developers of some of the first Atmos games: objects are a fantastic tool, but restraint should be shown with respect to the number of objects active at any time. Too many objects in motion can create a confusing soundscape.
They limited it to 32 sound sources for GAMES following advice from developers while Atmos still supports hundreds of sound sources in general.
 
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Nikana

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True but at the same time, the more sound sources you have, the more freedom an audio developer has when choosing which sound channels he/she can apply 3D effects to, since they have way more to choose from. But yea I get what you mean with the whole PR thing, I’m just excited we’re getting 3D audio on these consoles, cause while I appreciate the graphics performance improvements we got this generation, I never felt “immersed“ while playing these games. I always felt like 3D audio was the missing ingredient, so I’m happy now that we’re getting that with even more improvements to GPU and especially CPU performance for a price that’s way lower than smartphones which is INSANE value.

We have had the ability for 3D sound this generation though. The issue is that it requires a lot of work from developers and usually requires an audio specialist to take real advantage and it was really only available on the Xbox side.

I want to be optimistic but the fluff that sony has talked about with their sound doesn't sound any more impressive than Atmos in any capacity. The focus on headphones makes sense as that's the easiest way to get it but more importantly the cheapest. It feels like to me Sony simply didn't want to play with Atmos licensing, and I don't blame them really, but I have my doubts sound will get a major upgrade over this gen.
 
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We have had the ability for 3D sound this generation though. The issue is that it requires a lot of work from developers and usually requires an audio specialist to take real advantage and it was really only available on the Xbox side.

I want to be optimistic but the fluff that sony has talked about with their sound doesn't sound any more impressive than Atmos in any capacity. The focus on headphones makes sense as that's the easiest way to get it but more importantly the cheapest. It feels like to me Sony simply didn't want to play with Atmos licensing, and I don't blame them really, but I have my doubts sound will get a major upgrade over this gen.

Sony has alot of experience with sound plus they own Wise.

Should we be worried that they are not using Dolby?
 
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Nikana

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Sony has alot of experience with sound plus they own Wise.

Should we be worried that they are not using Dolby?

Define worried.

I have to assume they will support it for 4K movies. If they are using their own algorithm to somehow play Dolby Atmos or DTS X for 4k Blu rays I will be worried

I have my doubts on their TV speaker claim to get 3D audio. You can only do some much with 2 speakers, usually of shitty quality. Headphones makes the most sense as it's the cheapest way to get it.

If anything it seems to me they didn't want to dick with licensing of Atmos and DTS X for games.
 

Kazekage1981

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how is the average gamer gonna notice the difference between standard stereo/2.1 surround sound and all this new fancy stuff for both consoles? what type of gadgets are needed to take full advantage of this besides the mapping of your earlobes?
 
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3liteDragon

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We have had the ability for 3D sound this generation though. The issue is that it requires a lot of work from developers and usually requires an audio specialist to take real advantage and it was really only available on the Xbox side.

I want to be optimistic but the fluff that sony has talked about with their sound doesn't sound any more impressive than Atmos in any capacity. The focus on headphones makes sense as that's the easiest way to get it but more importantly the cheapest. It feels like to me Sony simply didn't want to play with Atmos licensing, and I don't blame them really, but I have my doubts sound will get a major upgrade over this gen.
Well, this gen I can imagine why audio engineers weren’t that excited to use 3D audio as they would have to fight with other programmers for the shitty Jaguar cores, but to me Sony’s approach to bring 3D audio for everyone regardless of what audio device they use sounds very ambitious. Plus, they said they’re still developing algorithms for TVs, stereo speakers, surround sound and etc while algorithm development for headphones are “nearly complete.” It’s not like they’re not supporting them, but we’ll see how everything pans out for them and whether or not they can pull it off on other devices, but I’m optimistic about it. I’m going to be using headphones anyway so I’m not worried, but I personally think we’re getting a massive upgrade to audio next-gen.
 
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Edit: Found this video and it just seems like this just rumble in the triggers.

are you pulling my leg here? you must be pulling my leg, because you say "you found" a video, which is one of the videos I posted that you originally commented on....!!!

engagdet article also speaks about ps5 "adaptive triggers , and haptic feedback", not "haptic triggers"
did you even read that?

let me copy/paste for you some:

"In games like Deathloop, developers use the adaptive triggers to make weapons feel different from one another, and when a weapon jams, the trigger will jam too.
In Ghostwire: Tokyo the adaptive triggers give players a sense of recoil,
and in Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart, the adaptive trigger is used when you fire a dual-barreled shotgun type weapon. As you pull the trigger, you’ll fire from one barrel and feel resistance halfway down the trigger. If you pull the trigger through that resistance, you’ll fire from both barrels at the same time. "

EVERYTHING I underlined, xbox does since 2013. the only thing I dont know is what is means by "trigger jam". if it means that it can't be depressed at all, then thats the only thing xbox controller can't do. remains to be seen. and no big deal anyway
 
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Define worried.

I have to assume they will support it for 4K movies. If they are using their own algorithm to somehow play Dolby Atmos or DTS X for 4k Blu rays I will be worried

I have my doubts on their TV speaker claim to get 3D audio. You can only do some much with 2 speakers, usually of shitty quality. Headphones makes the most sense as it's the cheapest way to get it.

If anything it seems to me they didn't want to dick with licensing of Atmos and DTS X for games.

By worried I mean if audio is going to be trash on the PS5 because they are not using Dolby Atmos. I plan on gaming with headphones. I just need to know if it makes sense spending alot for them. If the sound quality is going to be crap then I don't need a fancy headset for the sound.
 

Nikana

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Well, this gen I can imagine why audio engineers weren’t that excited to use 3D audio as they would have to fight with other programmers for the shitty Jaguar cores, but to me Sony’s approach to bring 3D audio for everyone regardless of what audio device they use sounds very ambitious. Plus, they said they’re still developing algorithms for TVs, stereo speakers, surround sound and etc. It’s not like they’re not supporting them, but we’ll see how everything pans out for them. But I personally think we’re getting a massive upgrade to audio next-gen.

How does it sound ambitious though? We already have 3D audio. They aren't doing anything different except supporting TV speakers which I am highly skeptical of considering the quality of most tv speakers. Algorithms will not make shitty speakers sound better.

I'm not trying to say Sony's soultion will sound bad but they haven't said anything other than custom algorithms and sound sources for their solutions. Every audio company does the exact same thing. What is Sony going to that's different to somehow enhance the sound.

Again, it sounds like a licensing thing. They want to use their own setup to avoid licensing.
 

Nikana

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By worried I mean if audio is going to be trash on the PS5 because they are not using Dolby Atmos. I plan on gaming with headphones. I just need to know if it makes sense spending alot for them. If the sound quality is going to be crap then I don't need a fancy headset for the sound.

Nah. There's no reason to expect audio to be bad. For it to be better than Atmos or DTS would be foolish at this time because they haven't said anything that will make it sound better.

Will it sound different and be tuned different? Most definitely. But I don't think there's any reason to think it'll sound bad.
 
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are you pulling my leg here? you must be pulling my leg, because you say "you found" a video, which is one of the videos I posted that you originally commented on....!!!

engagdet article also speaks about ps5 "adaptive triggers , and haptic feedback", not "haptic triggers"
did you even read that?

let me copy/paste for you some:

"In games like Deathloop, developers use the adaptive triggers to make weapons feel different from one another, and when a weapon jams, the trigger will jam too.
In Ghostwire: Tokyo the adaptive triggers give players a sense of recoil,
and in Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart, the adaptive trigger is used when you fire a dual-barreled shotgun type weapon. As you pull the trigger, you’ll fire from one barrel and feel resistance halfway down the trigger. If you pull the trigger through that resistance, you’ll fire from both barrels at the same time. "

EVERYTHING I underlined, xbox does since 2013. the only thing I dont know is what is means by "trigger jam". if it means that it can't be depressed at all, then thats the only thing xbox controller can't do. remains to be seen. and no big deal anyway

But what about trigger tension? Do the triggers on Xbox become harder to pull or is it just rumble?

Edit: This helps explain what I'm talking about.




"The documents detail an "input device" leveraging a "linear geared feedback trigger" and "motor-driven adjustable-tension trigger." In short, Microsoft is experimenting with force-feedback and adjustable-tension, hoping to elevate real-time trigger feedback. The feature could allow titles to impose variable resistance on the buttons, repelling player actions in-line with on-screen actions."

The red is what I'm asking about. I know the X1 controller has force feedback in the triggers it's the adjustable tension that I'm asking about.

"As you pull the trigger, you’ll fire from one barrel and feel resistance halfway down the trigger. If you pull the trigger through that resistance, you’ll fire from both barrels at the same time. "
 
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jimbojim

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are you pulling my leg here? you must be pulling my leg, because you say "you found" a video, which is one of the videos I posted that you originally commented on....!!!

engagdet article also speaks about ps5 "adaptive triggers , and haptic feedback", not "haptic triggers"
did you even read that?

let me copy/paste for you some:

"In games like Deathloop, developers use the adaptive triggers to make weapons feel different from one another, and when a weapon jams, the trigger will jam too.
In Ghostwire: Tokyo the adaptive triggers give players a sense of recoil,
and in Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart, the adaptive trigger is used when you fire a dual-barreled shotgun type weapon. As you pull the trigger, you’ll fire from one barrel and feel resistance halfway down the trigger. If you pull the trigger through that resistance, you’ll fire from both barrels at the same time. "

EVERYTHING I underlined, xbox does since 2013. the only thing I dont know is what is means by "trigger jam". if it means that it can't be depressed at all, then thats the only thing xbox controller can't do. remains to be seen. and no big deal anyway

Triggers on X1 gamepad doesn't do nor it can do things like adaptive triggers will do. Stop spinning like rumble motor.
What is X1 impulse triggers can do is just different feal of vibration and that's it.
Not all the weapons has the same resistance on triggers in reality. And adaptive triggers will provide different resistance for pressing it. Just like in Ratchet. And just like a bow in Horizon Forbidden West. The longer you strain the bow, the adaptive trigger will be harder to press. In X1 gamepad for example triggers will just vibrating stronger as longer you strain the bow. There is no various stages of resistance and pressing the triggers like on DualSense. And that's it. That's the simple explanation.
 
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But what about trigger tension? Do the triggers on Xbox become harder to pull or is it just rumble?

Edit: This helps explain what I'm talking about.

I dont know what else to tell you, since its obvious you have no idea how xbox triggers work.
suppose you put a vibrator underneath your el-cheapo ps4 triggers, that you can program its tension from 0 to 100. progressively or at a certain point.
will it have any difference when pulling the trigger?


and yes, microsoft as you see already has the patents for force feedback triggers, which is what you are referring to now.
you know what they are not implemented? because the triggers work very satisfactory as they are.
 

Nikana

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I dont know what else to tell you, since its obvious you have no idea how xbox triggers work.
suppose you put a vibrator underneath your el-cheapo ps4 triggers, that you can program its tension from 0 to 100. progressively or at a certain point.
will it have any difference when pulling the trigger?


and yes, microsoft as you see already has the patents for force feedback triggers, which is what you are referring to now.
you know what they are not implemented? because the triggers work very satisfactory as they are.

Tension is not the same as feedback.
 
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I dont know what else to tell you, since its obvious you have no idea how xbox triggers work.
suppose you put a vibrator underneath your el-cheapo ps4 triggers, that you can program its tension from 0 to 100. progressively or at a certain point.
will it have any difference when pulling the trigger?


and yes, microsoft as you see already has the patents for force feedback triggers, which is what you are referring to now.
you know what they are not implemented? because the triggers work very satisfactory as they are.

I'm guessing you didn't see the update hopefully this helps.

But what about trigger tension? Do the triggers on Xbox become harder to pull or is it just rumble?

Edit: This helps explain what I'm talking about.




"The documents detail an "input device" leveraging a "linear geared feedback trigger" and "motor-driven adjustable-tension trigger." In short, Microsoft is experimenting with force-feedback and adjustable-tension, hoping to elevate real-time trigger feedback. The feature could allow titles to impose variable resistance on the buttons, repelling player actions in-line with on-screen actions."

The red is what I'm asking about. I know the X1 controller has force feedback in the triggers it's the adjustable tension that I'm asking about.

"As you pull the trigger, you’ll fire from one barrel and feel resistance halfway down the trigger. If you pull the trigger through that resistance, you’ll fire from both barrels at the same time. "


Tension is not the same as feedback.

Thank you. That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I know a Microsoft has a patent on adjustable tension in the triggers but I'm not sure if the new controller has that. I know it had haptic feedback but the adjustable tension is different.
 
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3liteDragon

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How does it sound ambitious though? We already have 3D audio. They aren't doing anything different except supporting TV speakers which I am highly skeptical of considering the quality of most tv speakers. Algorithms will not make shitty speakers sound better.
I mean it’s ambitious in the sense that they’re doing all this to support all kinds of devices on their OWN algorithms instead of using existing formats while also having more processing power to throw at it compared to what licensed peripherals might have. Even if we’re talking about them not wanting to mess with Atmos’ licensing rules, developing custom algorithms for a single device alone is incredibly hard I would imagine let alone for multiple devices like TVs. BUT, will they be successful at it especially with TVs? They have way better audio hardware than a smart TV would to handle 3D audio output, and I think algorithms definitely could make a difference when it comes to sound output depending on how it’s optimized for different devices. Their custom solution could even be better than Atmos or DTS:X even, but we don’t know that yet. I’m saying it’s ambitious imho from seeing what their plan is and how they plan on executing it, but whether they will make it happen or not is something we have to wait and see.
 
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Tension is not the same as feedback.
tension is not the same as feedback, but lets define "feedback" here.
is it something that has to do with what you and your finger do, or is it a programmable variable resistance?
if it is the latter, similar results -ie to give the player fingers feedback- are already achieved.
as I said, while you can fully depress current xbox triggers even when impulse is at 100%, the feedback you get does provide similar results to all cases mentioned in engadget article ("make weapons feel different"/"triggers give players a sense of recoil"/"pull the trigger, you’ll fire from one barrel and feel resistance halfway down the trigger. If you pull the trigger through that resistance, you’ll fire from both barrels at the same time"), minus the trigger lock.
 
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jonnyp

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nVidia is always ahead of AMD, they are still on a bigger node and achieving better performance and wattage. God have mercy on AMD the moment nvidia decide to go 7nm or lower.

AMD will soon be on 5nm and in a few years 3nm.

We really don't know how much better Ampere is in perf/watt versus RDNA2 yet. I suspect the gap has shrunk quite a bit with RDNA2.
 

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How the fuck does every thread about anything Xbox related get derailed into a retarded Sony Tempest/Controller thread, take the off topic shit into a separate Audio thread where you can profess your audiophile hard on for it, because no one cares about the Audio when the discussion is about the SoC and the capabilities of the CPU and GPU.
 
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Nikana

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I mean it’s ambitious in the sense that they’re doing all this to support all kinds of devices on their OWN algorithms instead of using existing formats while also having more processing power to throw at it compared to what licensed peripherals might have. Even if we’re talking about them not wanting to mess with Atmos’ licensing rules, developing custom algorithms for a single device alone is incredibly hard I would imagine let alone for multiple devices like TVs. BUT, will they be successful at it especially with TVs? They have way better audio hardware than a smart TV would to handle 3D audio output, and I think algorithms definitely could make a difference when it comes to sound output depending on how it’s optimized for different devices. Their custom solution could even be better than Atmos or DTS:X even, but we don’t know that yet. I’m saying it’s ambitious imho from seeing what their plan is and how they plan on executing it, but whether they will make it happen or not is something we have to wait and see.

If they haven't dabbled in audio before I would maybe be as optimistic but Sony has been doing their own codecs forever. And it's never been notably better. Different yes, but better, not really. Wireless Bluetooth codecs I think you could make an argument they have an advantage but they also don't have major competition and Qualcomm has almost matched it.

It doesn't really matter if the audio hardware is better if you're still pushing through bad speakers. Hook up OG iPod headphones into a proper DAC and you'll get almost no improvement as the drivers have nothing to give even with better sources.
 

Nikana

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I'm guessing you didn't see the update hopefully this helps.






Thank you. That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I know a Microsoft has a patent on adjustable tension in the triggers but I'm not sure if the new controller has that. I know it had haptic feedback but the adjustable tension is different.

No Xbox controller has adjustable tension. Including series X controllers.
 
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Uncharted bunghole
tension is not the same as feedback, but lets define "feedback" here.
is it something that has to do with what you and your finger do, or is it a programmable variable resistance?
if it is the latter, similar results -ie to give the player fingers feedback- are already achieved.
as I said, while you can fully depress current xbox triggers even when impulse is at 100%, the feedback you get does provide similar results to all cases mentioned in engadget article ("make weapons feel different"/"triggers give players a sense of recoil"/"pull the trigger, you’ll fire from one barrel and feel resistance halfway down the trigger. If you pull the trigger through that resistance, you’ll fire from both barrels at the same time"), minus the trigger lock.

In simplest terms I don't see how vibrating triggers is the same thing as triggers that become harder to pull. Microsoft defines them differently because they are not the same.

No Xbox controller has adjustable tension. Including series X controllers.

That's what I understand. Triggers that become harder to pull isn't the same thing as Triggers that vibrate.

You can imitate the vibrations that recoil gives you with haptics but you can't simulate that crisp trigger break that a 1911 gives you with haptics. Like in Microsoft's patent there's probably something in the DualSense that creates tension in the triggers.
 
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Nikana

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tension is not the same as feedback, but lets define "feedback" here.
is it something that has to do with what you and your finger do, or is it a programmable variable resistance?
if it is the latter, similar results -ie to give the player fingers feedback- are already achieved.
as I said, while you can fully depress current xbox triggers even when impulse is at 100%, the feedback you get does provide similar results to all cases mentioned in engadget article ("make weapons feel different"/"triggers give players a sense of recoil"/"pull the trigger, you’ll fire from one barrel and feel resistance halfway down the trigger. If you pull the trigger through that resistance, you’ll fire from both barrels at the same time"), minus the trigger lock.

Each solution will have varying results.

Tension theoretically would be more effective as you can engange varying levels of resistance vs different strengths of vibration.
 
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Each solution will have varying results.

Tension theoretically would be more effective as you can engange varying levels of resistance vs different strengths of vibration.

I did a little bit of reading and while the DualSense has a new type of rumble I don't see anything about that rumble being in the triggers.

It's definitely possible that the DualSense doesn't have rumble in the triggers. All this time I thought it did but maybe the new haptics can imitate that effect.
 
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Each solution will have varying results.

Tension theoretically would be more effective as you can engange varying levels of resistance vs different strengths of vibration.
microsoft has patents for trigger force feedback since years.
you have to understand what the whole meaning of trigger feedback is. is it a gimmick? or is it to give extra information to the player?

personally I wouldnt want a trigger lock on my shooter, unless the mechanism is out of titanium because in my tension I can see me breaking the trigger
and I say this having two elite controllers
 
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Nikana

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I did a little bit of reading and while the DualSense has a new type of rumble I don't see anything about that rumble being in the triggers.

It's definitely possible that the DualSense doesn't have rumble in the triggers. All this time I thought it did but maybe the new haptics can imitate that effect.
I don't believe it has rumble in the tirggers. That would be news to me but the rumble in the controller I believe has been replaced with a haptic rumble.
 

Nikana

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microsoft has patents for trigger force feedback since years.
you have to understand what the meaning of trigger feedback is. is it a gimmick? or is it to give extra information to the player?

personally I wouldnt want a trigger lock on my shooter, unless the mechanism is out of titanium because in my tension I can see me breaking the trigger
and I say this having two elite controllers

They have a patent sure but they have never used tension in their triggers. They have only ever implemented the rumble triggers. It provides force feedback but it's still different then tension. It's a type of feedback yes but its a different feedback.

It really depends on the result of the tension. I personally don't think it'll ever be like a lock. It will be more akin to varying levels of tension during the throw.

Like a bow would take more force at the begining of the pull but as the trigger is pressed it would get easier.

Or if you had a sawed off it would be a short double burst tension for the trigger.

Rumble Triggers could provide feedback as well like with the bow a strong rumble could indicate the start of the pull with a fadeout of rumble as the draw is completed.
 
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MrFunSocks

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Why are people acting like 3D audio is new? Dolby Atmos is already on the Xbox one, works with headphones to give you “3D sound”, you just have to buy the license through the Dolby app.

Anyone expecting some magical surround sound experience through your tv speakers because of tempest is going to be very disappointed.
 
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I don't believe it has rumble in the tirggers. That would be news to me but the rumble in the controller I believe has been replaced with a haptic rumble.


"Improved haptic feedback, i.e. improved rumble, will offer "astonishing effects" according to Wired, allowing you to feel the effects of different surfaces, whether it's resistance or simply a "bouncy sensation." "

Apparently it's supposed to be an improvement over the DS4s rumble. I haven't read anything about rumble being in the actual triggers though. I don't think there's rumble in them btw.
 

Nikana

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"Improved haptic feedback, i.e. improved rumble, will offer "astonishing effects" according to Wired, allowing you to feel the effects of different surfaces, whether it's resistance or simply a "bouncy sensation." "

Apparently it's supposed to be an improvement over the DS4s rumble. I haven't read anything about rumble being in the actual triggers though. I don't think there's rumble in them btw.

If there's rumble in the triggers I'd be surprised.

Haptic feedback is in the switch controllers. It provides more control over where the feedback can be felt while also allowing multiple sources of feedback.