Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Releases Green New Deal Outline

Cybrwzrd

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Difficult but doable. If they really want a train ...
Should the states have built the Highway system without Federal oversight? Interstate commerce is clearly designated to the Federal government. Savannah is a major US port. Rail improvements for Savannah would be a boon for interstate commerce.
 
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Should the states have built the Highway system without Federal oversight? Interstate commerce is clearly designated to the Federal government. Savannah is a major US port. Rail improvements for Savannah would be a boon for interstate commerce.
Atlanta to Savannah does not require federal oversight.

And even so, every state still kicks in major parts of funding even if state lines are crossed. My point still stands. If this is a econonic boom, than the state should raise taxes and spend the money regardless. They don't, becuase shit is easier said than done, especially when someone is proposing to spend federal money like a drunken fool
 
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Atlanta is flyover country? I live here too you know.

Atlanta would make sense as a HSR stop on a network for the east coast. It wouldn't make sense between say, Omaha and Des Moines though. I could see a southern loop being viable going cross country from coast to coast.

Oh, and MARTA needs to be expanded in all directions from the city center even out to places like Douglasville or Cartersville.
I've been saying that about MARTA for YEARS! But certain counties (cough, Clayton and Henry and others, cough) have some irrational fear of crime...

They really cleaned up for Superbowl, though. Especially Five Points.

Edited for typos
 
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Let me be clear... I'm not advocating the dissolution of aircraft... We still need them ... But interstate high speed rail is doable and could get rid of those long bus trips. Japan does it, as do other Euro countries...

How would using green energy be detrimental to the environment? You mean building more wind machines? That doesn't work for all areas of the country.

However, It works for Texas and other states like it. Windy places like Chicago and parts of the Midwest and California, also. Wind in conjunction with solar in "desert states" would be a boon in weaning Americans off fossil fuels.

Charging stations for electric or hybrid automobiles would be great as well. A combination of electric, hybrid and hydrogen cars would put us ahead of the rest of the world technologically. We just need to be forward thinking (something that country hasn't been for decades) and BOLD!

Rebuilding our infrastructure in this way to make us the leader in tech and green (it's the future) would create jobs and sustainability in ways fossil fuels don't... Plus they'd be safer than coal mines ans offshore oil rigs. Retraining those workers into high paying green tech jobs would be amazing and a step into more of what our jobs as caretakers of the planet is supposed to be.

Nuclear? That CAN stay. And airlines still need fossil fuels for combustion engines (until we develop reliable tech for ion engines in planes).

As for "funding" people who don't want to work.... That's definitely not doable nor something most people want. I think she (or one of the cosponsors) did that to troll the rest od Congress.

Listen, we aren't going to get all of that... But maybe 80% of it... And that's better than the current status quo of "more gas and coal all the time and all the time more gas and coal!"

Compromise can be achieved... But both parties have to have vision ...

Most scientists agree (like over 95%) that our climate will be irreversibly changed in 12 years... Once the atmosphere gets hotter by 2%, there's no turning back and we've hurt all life (including us) for the next few hundred years (rising oceans, mass loss of life, etc.)
You have a very naive world view. I can see why you are favorable to AOC's childish "solutions".

Public transportation is and always has been a massive waste of resource that few people use in the US. It's a pipe dream for the democrats that has been a disaster ever since the 1980's, maybe even starting in the late 1960's. Just look at the conditions of public transportation in any major city. It's mostly ridden by the poor and impoverish, which creates a vicious cycle that only draws more of these types of riders. The middle class and rich aren't going to use it due to safety, freedom, and comfort of personal vehicles and not having to deal with the rift rafts. The bad thing that almost always ruins the democrat's grand envisioning of some greater good are the "homeless, criminal, poor" elements. They can't create great public parks, community centers, gathering place when those elements enter the mix.

The funny thing about this is America already is a leader in green technology. What exactly is this push for, other than to waste money and make people like DeafTourettes feel slightly better about their country or whatever.

But that isn't smart policy. This just seems like a lot of narcissism.
Green technology is code for people to stop living a modern live style. Almost every third world country invest in or already using green technology, be it solar, rain recapture, propane cooking, etc. It's not because they are forward thinking or innovative, it's because they don't have the infrastructure and economy to afford the standard of living that countries that use fossil fuel. People south of the border and around the world aren't mass migrating to rich nations because they are content living without air conditioning, automobile, fancy electronics/gadgets.

Ask yourself, do you want to live in a place where your electricity goes out at least once a week? Do you want to avoid night life and pretty much all productive activity after dusk? Do you want to swelter in the summer and freeze in the winter? Do you want to go back living in 1900's era technology/conditions? That's the promise of a 100 percent green energy sector. It's such a ridiculous proposal anyone with critical thinking abilities can dismiss offhand.

These foolish radical leftists aren't bringing any new ideas to the table,. They simply want to introduce the idea of living with less, which is essentially an anti-growth mindset, and the foundation of socialism and communism.
 
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matt404au

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I have no ulterior motives Matt. Simply put, I believe extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you can't handle that without resorting to namecalling or making sweeping assumptions then discussions fall flat. I'm sorry we couldn't come to an understanding here but perhaps we can in the future.
lol piss off mate. I gave you evidence — if you ignore it, that’s your choice.
 

matt404au

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hi there, i live in "flyover" country, sadly i am not privileged like the people on the coasts. i have wanted rail for decades now. why the fuck not? i want to be able to take a train from Atlanta to Savannah. is that a poor request? people would take it all the time. they could sell alcohol and food on the train. it would rule. it would connect one of the largest airports to the Atlantic ocean. it would create so many jobs and so many businesses would start along the new rail.

tbh it is tiring to see people shoot ideas down as unrealistic. i don't care. they have to do something. at the moment all they are doing is symbolic clapbacks. the next time the defense and natsec budgets come up they will all come to the table as usual. at least these are ideas.

at least people like AOC are setting the stage. if GND is a bust, so what, come up with something new. if they want to beat Trump they will need to work at it this time. here's the best way to sell GND: legalize & decriminalize weed. it will pick up that flyover boomer vote that the Dems covet so.
I like the high speed rail idea if it is implemented incrementally on a priority basis. The issue is with her batshit insane suggestion that it needs to be done from a green basis to eliminate air travel. I think those kinds of comments show her true intent and lack of any practical understanding of the world. That she threw a dozen things at the wall and one of them stuck seems to be more luck than anything.
 

matt404au

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You have a very naive world view. I can see why you are favorable to AOC's childish "solutions".

Public transportation is and always has been a massive waste of resource that few people use. It's a pipe dream for the democrats that has been a disaster ever since the 1980's, maybe even starting in the late 1960's. Just look at the conditions of public transportation in any major city. It's mostly ridden by the poor and impoverish, which creates a vicious cycle that only draws more of these types of riders. The middle class and rich aren't going to use it due to safety, freedom, and comfort of personal vehicles and not having to deal with the rift rafts. The bad thing that almost always ruins the democrat's grand envisioning of some greater good are the "homeless, criminal, poor" elements. They can't create great public parks, community centers, gathering place when those elements enter the mix.



Green technology is code for people to stop living a modern live style. Almost every third world country invest in or already using green technology, be it solar, rain recapture, propane cooking, etc. It's not because they are forward thinking or innovative, it's because they don't have the infrastructure and economy to afford the standard of living that countries that use fossil energy. People south of the border and around the world aren't mass migrating to rich nations because they are happening living without air conditioning, automobile, fancy electronics/gadgets.

Ask yourself, do you want to live in a place where your electricity goes out at least once a week? Do you want to avoid night life and pretty much all productive activity after dusk? Do you want to swelter in the summer and freeze in the winter? Do you want to go back living in 1900's era technology/conditions? That's the promise of a 100 percent green energy sector. It's such a ridiculous proposal anyone with critical thinking abilities can dismiss offhand.

These foolish radical leftists aren't bringing any new ideas to the table,. They simply want to introduce the idea of living with less, which is essentially an anti-growth mindset, and the foundation of socialism and communism.
Public transportation isn’t inherently wasteful and underutilised, it just needs to be fit for purpose. Places like Hong Kong and Tokyo are completely dependent on public transport due to the geography and population density, and their systems are incredibly efficient and not wasteful at all. Trying to implement similar systems in so-called flyover states would be incredibly dumb though, yeah (I hope no one is actually suggesting that).
 
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Public transportation is and always has been a massive waste of resource that few people use in the US. It's a pipe dream for the democrats that has been a disaster ever since the 1980's, maybe even starting in the late 1960's. Just look at the conditions of public transportation in any major city. It's mostly ridden by the poor and impoverish, which creates a vicious cycle that only draws more of these types of riders. The middle class and rich aren't going to use it due to safety, freedom, and comfort of personal vehicles and not having to deal with the rift rafts.
you can totally tell whoever wrote this doesn't live in a city with even halfway decent public transportation LOL
 

Cybrwzrd

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Atlanta to Savannah does not require federal oversight.

And even so, every state still kicks in major parts of funding even if state lines are crossed. My point still stands. If this is a econonic boom, than the state should raise taxes and spend the money regardless. They don't, becuase shit is easier said than done, especially when someone is proposing to spend federal money like a drunken fool
Why should the states raise taxes to pay for it? The Federal government literally has the authority to create dollars via issuance of T-bonds. Which people and banks purchase as safe investment instruments. By building the rail system you would create a market and that would create additional jobs which in turn create additional tax revenue for the fed to pay on said T-bonds.
 
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I like the high speed rail idea if it is implemented incrementally on a priority basis. The issue is with her batshit insane suggestion that it needs to be done from a green basis to eliminate air travel. I think those kinds of comments show her true intent and lack of any practical understanding of the world. That she threw a dozen things at the wall and one of them stuck seems to be more luck than anything.
The ambulance chaser playbook. Throw everything at the wall and hope something stick. As long as they can make a quick buck to pay the rent and play the game another day. Charlatans and miscreants.

Public transportation isn’t inherently wasteful and underutilised, it just needs to be fit for purpose. Places like Hong Kong and Tokyo are completely dependent on public transport due to the geography and population density, and their systems are incredibly efficient and not wasteful at all. Trying to implement similar systems in so-called flyover states would be incredibly dumb though, yeah (I hope no one is actually suggesting that).
The differences between the public transportation of places like Tokyo and Los Angeles are far and wide. California has a population of ~30million compared to ~120million of Japan, even though California has a bigger land mass. Public transportation usually work better in denser cities which did not grow with a personal vehicle civil design. In California almost every street has two lanes whereas in Japan there are streets barely big enough for bicycles. California was designed to accommodate drivers, with roads, laws, and even incentives for owning cars. Japan has very high taxes/regulation/requirements for owning cars and their culture encourages public transportation, even exalting it I would say. California is also very diverse, racially and economically, and there is a wide gap between rich and poor. The rich and anyone who can afford to would rather pay more to avoid dealing with the rift rafts on the buses, even if it means sitting in traffic, paying more in auto insurance and car maintenance/gas.

Just different design mindset and perhaps even culture. Doesn't mean one method is better than the other, just different ways of doing things with the tools they have.
 
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Public transportation isn’t inherently wasteful and underutilised, it just needs to be fit for purpose. Places like Hong Kong and Tokyo are completely dependent on public transport due to the geography and population density, and their systems are incredibly efficient and not wasteful at all. Trying to implement similar systems in so-called flyover states would be incredibly dumb though, yeah (I hope no one is actually suggesting that).

I'll get to.the other post tomorrow but I agree with you here.

Interstate HSR would still be a good thing. And expanding it in densely populated cities (megalopolises and metro areas) would be great and lower highway congestion and pollution.

Contrary to what Wall said, cities NEED better public transportation. And it isn't JUST the "poor and homeless" riding it like he suggests.

We're once again in agreement!

Edit: and you have to PAY to ride public transportation... That ish isn't free... Meaning you have to have JOB to ride. Especially if you get multiple stops.
 
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matt404au

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The ambulance chaser playbook. Throw everything at the wall and hope something stick. As long as they can make a quick buck to pay the rent and play the game another day. Charlatans and miscreants.



The differences between the public transportation of places like Tokyo and Los Angeles are far and wide. California has a population of ~30million compared to ~120million of Japan, even though California has a bigger land mass. Public transportation usually work better in denser cities which did not grow with a personal vehicle design. In California almost every street has two lanes whereas in Japan there are streets barely big enough for bicycles. California was designed to accommodate drivers, with roads, laws, and even incentives for owning cars. Japan has very high taxes/regulation/requirements for owning cars and their culture encourages public transportation. California is also very diverse, and there is a wide gap between rich and poor. The rich and anyone who can afford to will rather pay more to avoid dealing with the rift rafts on the buses even if it means sitting in traffic, paying more in auto insurance and car maintenance/gas.

Just different design mindset and perhaps even culture.
Yep, I agree, which is why I pointed out geographical constraints and population density. Those kinds of systems only work in cities that built up, not out. AOC’s main reason for proposing the train system is not need, efficiency or suitability; it’s because she sees it as a green alternative to air transport. Her main goal is to reduce air travel emissions, not provide a fit-for-purpose public transport system.
 

Cybrwzrd

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Just different design mindset and perhaps even culture.
Well I can't disagree with this. The power of a monoculture is that people respect the things they create together. When you are as fractured as we are here in America, it ends up with bums shitting in train cars.
 

Cybrwzrd

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Yep, I agree, which is why I pointed out geographical constraints and population density. Those kinds of systems only work in cities that built up, not out. AOC’s main reason for proposing the train system is not need, efficiency or suitability; it’s because she sees it as a green alternative to air transport. Her main goal is to reduce air travel emissions, not provide a fit-for-purpose public transport system.
And electric trains still are by no means green - though they are significantly greener than individual automobiles... It is like calling electric cars green when they require nickel mining and power plants to recharge. It is just pushing the carbon footprint to someone else.
 
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Cybrwzrd

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And planes are becoming more fuel efficient since there is demand from airlines for efficient jets.

Another thing about building high speed rail that I really didn't think of is how citizens would react to the eminent domain requirements to purchasing the land required to build them. Again, after living in Japan, and visiting Europe and China, I wonder why we don't build them here. But I also know how Americans can be.

Yet, I look back at a time in Atlanta, since we mentioned it, when the city was trying to build a highway system that would have alleviated much of the gridlock we see today. People rioted. Now we have a clusterfuck of a highway system where two major arteries merge in the middle of a city.

The US can build these things, but it isn't as easy as AOC makes it, and doing it would require a cultural change that the Democrats currently don't support.
 
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Are you blind? The Democrats' entire platform is based on identity politics right now. Of course it's going to be a focus of criticism for anyone opposed to its toxicity. Those pushing back against it are not the ones instigating it.
Sorry, but that is demonstrably wrong. Sanders, who is a very prominent associate of the Democrats, is talking almost exclusively traditional left issues and his approach to combat systematic discrimination is free education for all, certrainly not an identity-politics approach. And now look at the very thing this topic is about, Ocasio-Cortez' proposal of a Green New Deal. Is it pie in the sky and unrealistic? Yes. But does it focus on identity politics? Absolutely not. She is focussing on ecological and social advancements. She is being naive in the extend of her promises, but the goals are not primarily identity politics goals.

She seems to have the heart in the right place, but she needs to learn to differentiate between the idea of an ideal society and actual political promises that can be worked with. With more experience and maybe a good advisor I feel she can be an enthusiastic and good politician in the future though.

The fact that you were unable to produce a single posting where @ssolitare was celebrating Cortez for her looks and had to resort to clearly tongue-in-cheek postings by @JareBear shows your bias in a way that I'd hope it should be obvious even to yourself.
 
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All of this is a good example of the "important to be morally right, rather than being obsessed with being factually and semantically correct." statement.

Quite a remarkable thing to hear from anyone who expects to be taken seriously.
Genuinely terrifying to hear from anyone in government.
 
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matt404au

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Sorry, but that is demonstrably wrong. Sanders, who is a very prominent associate of the Democrats, is talking almost exclusively traditional left issues and his approach to combat systematic discrimination is free education for all, certrainly not an identity-politics approach. And now look at the very thing this topic is about, Ocasio-Cortez' proposal of a Green New Deal. Is it pie in the sky and unrealistic? Yes. But does it focus on identity politics? Absolutely not. She is focussing on ecological and social advancements. She is being naive in the extend of her promises, but the goals are not primarily identity politics goals.

She seems to have the heart in the right place, but she needs to learn to differentiate between the idea of an ideal society and actual political promises that can be worked with. With more experience and maybe a good advisor I feel she can be an enthusiastic and good politician in the future though.

The fact that you were unable to produce a single posting where @ssolitare was celebrating Cortez for her looks and had to resort to clearly tongue-in-cheek postings by @JareBear shows your bias in a way that I'd hope it should be obvious even to yourself.
The same Bernie that the Dems shafted for “I’m With Her”? Yeah, nah. And you’re overstating AOC’s influence in the party. Just because she’s the flavour of the month doesn’t mean she’s representative of the party. Besides, I already pointed out that she has shoehorned in some identity politics into this ostensibly green proposal (page 3 clause 3C re: the gender pay gap). There’s even a thread on the front page right now showing this Puerto Rican girl from the Bronx putting on a fake Latin accent and pushing open borders with the argument that the country belongs to latinas! How can you sit there with a straight face and suggest she isn’t neck deep in identity politics?

Given that you’re the master of selective fingers in ears (recall your handwaving of NI’s conduct in the Smollett thread), I’m not surprised you’re backing up whiskey here. I already pointed out that my assertion that Jare likes her for identity reasons is because: he said in the Smollett thread that, as a liberal, he has to think a certain way regarding minority issues; and because of his constant fawning over her looks and other superficialities. I know you saw that because you were posting in that thread.

And ssolitare? Are you kidding me? He has made it abundantly clear over the last year that he makes his mind up based on identity first and anything thereafter is peripheral. Why would this be any different? It’s pretty obvious when he’s frothing and calling her a beast any time she shows a bit of attitude. Can you honestly tell me he would be doing the same if she was a generic white dude?

I’m not falling for your pseudo-Kafka trap where your arbitrary burden of proof hasn’t been met unless I can give you a smoking gun of them saying “I like her because she’s x”. That’s not how communication works.
 
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The same Bernie that the Dems shafted for “I’m With Her”?
Yeah that one. I am still mildly optimistic that he has a chance of being the next presidential candidate.

And you’re overstating AOC’s influence in the party. Just because she’s the flavour of the month doesn’t mean she’s representative of the party. Besides, I already pointed out that she has shoehorned in some identity politics into this ostensibly green proposal (page 3 clause 3C re: the gender pay gap). There’s even a thread on the front page right now showing this Puerto Rican girl from the Bronx putting on a fake Latin accent and pushing open borders with the argument that the country belongs to latinas! How can you sit there with a straight face and suggest she isn’t neck deep in identity politics?
Yes, AOC also cares about minorities, but it is not the primary motivator or focus of her policies. Is this now a purity test of the kind "you may never propose any legislation or goal that specifically benefits minorities or you are a filthy sjw identity politics person"? When you state the entire platform is based on identity politics, then that is a totally different level of commitment to the issue than is at display here. Your aggressive behaviour towards policies and positions that help minorities is clouding your judgment and that's certainly not a good thing. By reducing the democrats to a single issue you fail to properly engage with political discussions and you frankly appear obsessed with identity politics. The fact that you were taunting @ssolitaire and @JareBear in this thread numerous times to stir up disucssion on the topic is pretty ironic, considering you appear to be so repelled by the topic. Maybe do not try to push the topic all the time if you do not like it?
Given that you’re the master of selective fingers in ears (recall your handwaving of NI’s conduct in the Smollett thread), I’m not surprised you’re backing up whiskey here. I already pointed out that my assertion that Jare likes her for identity reasons is because: he said in the Smollett thread that, as a liberal, he has to think a certain way regarding minority issues; and because of his constant fawning over her looks and other superficialities. I know you saw that because you were posting in that thread.
I do not remember this specific thing from @JareBear, only that he wants to believe Smollett, but either way, your assertion that he likes AOC for her looks or identity cannot be justified by that. Even if he said precisely what you said you can only conclude that AOC has an advantage over other politicians in his evaluation, which does not mean that it is the dominant factor in his evaluation of AOC.
And ssolitare? Are you kidding me? He has made it abundantly clear over the last year that he makes his mind up based on identity first and anything thereafter is peripheral. Why would this be any different? It’s pretty obvious when he’s frothing and calling her a beast any time she shows a bit of attitude. Can you honestly tell me he would be doing the same if she was a generic white dude?
@ssolitaire has not made that clear to me and considering how laser focussed you are on this topic and reducing people to it, I cannot take your word on this. In discussions I had with @ssolitaire, I did not get the impression that he puts identity over all other factors. In fact, I have yet to see anything that indicates that he evaluates politicans on that basis at all. Cortez has a very specific energetic style and is very enthusiastic about her goals. The descriptors you cite therefore are not unfounded. Had he said the same about Clinton, it would have been questionable, but with Cortez? I do not know if he had said the same thing about a similar white man, but I see no indication one way or the other.
I’m not falling for your pseudo-Kafka trap where your arbitrary burden of proof hasn’t been met unless I can give you a smoking gun of them saying “I like her because she’s x”. That’s not how communication works.
For you, communication seems to work like "if it sound like this in my mind, then it is reality". This is not how it works, especially not if you are so extremely biased on the specific issue.
 

matt404au

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Yeah that one. I am still mildly optimistic that he has a chance of being the next presidential candidate.


Yes, AOC also cares about minorities, but it is not the primary motivator or focus of her policies. Is this now a purity test of the kind "you may never propose any legislation or goal that specifically benefits minorities or you are a filthy sjw identity politics person"? When you state the entire platform is based on identity politics, then that is a totally different level of commitment to the issue than is at display here. Your aggressive behaviour towards policies and positions that help minorities is clouding your judgment and that's certainly not a good thing. By reducing the democrats to a single issue you fail to properly engage with political discussions and you frankly appear obsessed with identity politics. The fact that you were taunting @ssolitaire and @JareBear in this thread numerous times to stir up disucssion on the topic is pretty ironic, considering you appear to be so repelled by the topic. Maybe do not try to push the topic all the time if you do not like it?

I do not remember this specific thing from @JareBear, only that he wants to believe Smollett, but either way, your assertion that he likes AOC for her looks or identity cannot be justified by that. Even if he said precisely what you said you can only conclude that AOC has an advantage over other politicians in his evaluation, which does not mean that it is the dominant factor in his evaluation of AOC.
@ssolitaire has not made that clear to me and considering how laser focussed you are on this topic and reducing people to it, I cannot take your word on this. In discussions I had with @ssolitaire, I did not get the impression that he puts identity over all other factors. In fact, I have yet to see anything that indicates that he evaluates politicans on that basis at all. Cortez has a very specific energetic style and is very enthusiastic about her goals. The descriptors you cite therefore are not unfounded. Had he said the same about Clinton, it would have been questionable, but with Cortez? I do not know if he had said the same thing about a similar white man, but I see no indication one way or the other.
For you, communication seems to work like "if it sound like this in my mind, then it is reality". This is not how it works, especially not if you are so extremely biased on the specific issue.
She puts on a fake Latin accent and advocates for open borders on the basis that America belongs to latinos and you handwave it away as innocently proposing a policy to help minorities?

Yeah nah mate, I’m not falling for this Yoshi Trap.
 
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She puts on a fake Latin accent and advocates for open borders on the basis that America belongs to latinos and you handwave it away as innocently proposing a policy to help minorities?

Yeah nah mate, I’m not falling for this Yoshi Trap.
I was talking about the green new deal here. That speech was stupid, yes. I also do not get how she even gets the idea that latinos were the native people of the US.
 
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From Forbes:





Edit: we spend 4 times both of those costs combined for the military and rhey don't even use all of that money ... At least not on proven systems (like the waste that is the current fighter jets)
He asked for a cost comparison. Those numbers are a drop in the bucket next to the cost required to accomplish even one of her goals.
 

JORMBO

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A lot of the things like high speed rails, green energy, etc. are good ideas. She should have never included things like getting rid of planes, paying everyone who doesn’t work, redoing all existing buildings and so on.

Solar and wind aren’t going to fully replace fossil fuels with current technology. It’s not a bad idea to build and use more green energy to supplement fossil fuels where it makes sense. I believe we are currently doing this. Perhaps we can do it more then we are. I don’t know. Maybe one day we will have even better solutions as technology improves and we can continue to move forward.

High speed rail sounds great. It can’t fully replace planes and be used everywhere though. We should build it where it makes sense over time and use it to supplement current transportation modes over time.

We can’t redo all existing buildings. There are too many. But if there are good ideas for improvements maybe they can be taken into consideration for new buildings.

There are good ideas here. They should not have slapped a goal of doing all these things at 100% in 10 years. They should have also tossed out some of the really dumb sounding stuff. Plus even if we did decently achieve these goals in an effort to fight climate change, the rest of the world isn’t going to make this many extreme changes.

I’d be on board with the Green New Deal if they tweaked it and took out the stuff that isn’t realistic. It seems like AOC wants to go from bartender to person who reshapes the entire country forever within her first month in office though.
 
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If we would actually listen to the hippies that are trying to cultivate the desert with Earth Ships as well as revise building code to allow for construction elsewhere using shipping containers we could make strides. I'd even say you could have a path to immigration through earth ship construction for those who would come through our southern border.

We can do this now. Not wait 10 years.

 
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First off, Cortez is bring attached to proposals by democrats but otherwise she was never involved in the creation. This is the 3rd time they have done this.

It seems like they know she's clueless an unproductive so giving her a hand by putting her name on things she had nothing to do with.
 
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I'm on the fence here. Did Nancy try to prevent this from going public, but the proponents were too dumb to take her advice? Or did Nancy let it happen (and maybe encourage it) because she's so sick of AOC that she wants the party to realize what a mistake it is to put a microphone near her mouth, or near the mouth of anyone of like mind?

And talk about spiking the ball at the 1 yard line. Quarterback Nancy wins a stand off for the party, and the party follows it up by raising the roof and chanting USA during Trump's speech, and then releasing one of the most ridiculous plans of all time, with no plan to pay for it, but many ways to cut tax revenues to make paying for it twice (cough million times cough) as hard.

For any true moderates, you now have two choices. Self promoter who has not destroyed the country as his opponents claimed he would, or someone who literally supports taking your car away, plane rides away, heat and electrical power, and killing the economy. Protecting unborn 8 month old babies probably doesn't seem so bad after all, right?
 
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The same Bernie that the Dems shafted for “I’m With Her”? Yeah, nah. And you’re overstating AOC’s influence in the party. Just because she’s the flavour of the month doesn’t mean she’s representative of the party. Besides, I already pointed out that she has shoehorned in some identity politics into this ostensibly green proposal (page 3 clause 3C re: the gender pay gap). There’s even a thread on the front page right now showing this Puerto Rican girl from the Bronx putting on a fake Latin accent and pushing open borders with the argument that the country belongs to latinas! How can you sit there with a straight face and suggest she isn’t neck deep in identity politics?

Given that you’re the master of selective fingers in ears (recall your handwaving of NI’s conduct in the Smollett thread), I’m not surprised you’re backing up whiskey here. I already pointed out that my assertion that Jare likes her for identity reasons is because: he said in the Smollett thread that, as a liberal, he has to think a certain way regarding minority issues; and because of his constant fawning over her looks and other superficialities. I know you saw that because you were posting in that thread.

And ssolitare? Are you kidding me? He has made it abundantly clear over the last year that he makes his mind up based on identity first and anything thereafter is peripheral. Why would this be any different? It’s pretty obvious when he’s frothing and calling her a beast any time she shows a bit of attitude. Can you honestly tell me he would be doing the same if she was a generic white dude?

I’m not falling for your pseudo-Kafka trap where your arbitrary burden of proof hasn’t been met unless I can give you a smoking gun of them saying “I like her because she’s x”. That’s not how communication works.
Not only are you 99.9% wrong (I did call her a beast because Wall Street, democrats and republicans are afraid of her ability to reach people, calling her scary like the FBI), but this says way more about you than it does about me. You don't know, because you are blind. I look forward to the next thread where you instigate identity politics and then blame it on everyone else when you get called out, grave digger.

 
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@matt404au

From The Hill
Green New Deal, a federal spending program that will cost $2 trillion or more and move the electric power sector to complete reliance on renewable energy sources. According to Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the Green New Deal would include basic income programs and universal health care programs, further escalating the cost. But those are well beyond the scope here.
Taking out some of the things that definitely won't pass even within a 10 year time frame, this bringing down the coat.. A lot of it is doable.

The New Deal is still in effect (FDR's) and the cost is WAY over 2 trillion dollars... But in a Green New Deal, we'd save in the long run...

I get what she's trying to do... Negotiate.

When my lawyer tried to negotiate a settlement for me a few years ago, they started with a MUCH higher number than what I eventually got.

It takes compromise, patience, a bit of stubbornness and will to get something this big into law... It can be done but everyone would have to do some give and take.
 
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Yeah, Mars would be more appropriate. Or we could all meet for coffee by the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
In fiscal year 2015, the federal budget is $3.8 trillion. These trillions of dollars make up about 21 percent of the U.S. economy (as measured by Gross Domestic Product, or GDP). It's also about $12,000 for every woman, man and child in the United States.

Mans talking like the USA is poor 😏
 
Jan 12, 2009
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@matt404au

From The Hill


Taking out some of the things that definitely won't pass even within a 10 year time frame, this bringing down the coat.. A lot of it is doable.

The New Deal is still in effect (FDR's) and the cost is WAY over 2 trillion dollars... But in a Green New Deal, we'd save in the long run...

I get what she's trying to do... Negotiate.

When my lawyer tried to negotiate a settlement for me a few years ago, they started with a MUCH higher number than what I eventually got.

It takes compromise, patience, a bit of stubbornness and will to get something this big into law... It can be done but everyone would have to do some give and take.
I have no idea what type of legislation this thing would turn into. They have two years to figure it out. We're really looking to be carbon free by 2050. Hopefully something becomes of it.
 
Mar 3, 2014
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In fiscal year 2015, the federal budget is $3.8 trillion. These trillions of dollars make up about 21 percent of the U.S. economy (as measured by Gross Domestic Product, or GDP). It's also about $12,000 for every woman, man and child in the United States.

Mans talking like the USA is poor 😏
And the other man's talking like he has no idea how much all of this will cost.
 
Mar 3, 2014
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@matt404au

From The Hill


Taking out some of the things that definitely won't pass even within a 10 year time frame, this bringing down the coat.. A lot of it is doable.

The New Deal is still in effect (FDR's) and the cost is WAY over 2 trillion dollars... But in a Green New Deal, we'd save in the long run...

I get what she's trying to do... Negotiate.

When my lawyer tried to negotiate a settlement for me a few years ago, they started with a MUCH higher number than what I eventually got.

It takes compromise, patience, a bit of stubbornness and will to get something this big into law... It can be done but everyone would have to do some give and take.
$2 trillion "or more" says The Hill.

Clever.
 
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Not only are you 99.9% wrong (I did call her a beast because Wall Street, democrats and republicans are afraid of her ability to reach people, calling her scary like the FBI), but this says way more about you than it does about me. You don't know, because you are blind. I look forward to the next thread where you instigate identity politics and then blame it on everyone else when you get called out, grave digger.
Obama reached people. Trump reached people. Hitler reached people.

Reaching people says nothing about the quality of the ideas being communicates.
 
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Green technology is code for people to stop living a modern live style. Almost every third world country invest in or already using green technology, be it solar, rain recapture, propane cooking, etc. It's not because they are forward thinking or innovative, it's because they don't have the infrastructure and economy to afford the standard of living that countries that use fossil fuel. People south of the border and around the world aren't mass migrating to rich nations because they are content living without air conditioning, automobile, fancy electronics/gadgets.

Ask yourself, do you want to live in a place where your electricity goes out at least once a week? Do you want to avoid night life and pretty much all productive activity after dusk? Do you want to swelter in the summer and freeze in the winter? Do you want to go back living in 1900's era technology/conditions? That's the promise of a 100 percent green energy sector. It's such a ridiculous proposal anyone with critical thinking abilities can dismiss offhand.

These foolish radical leftists aren't bringing any new ideas to the table,. They simply want to introduce the idea of living with less, which is essentially an anti-growth mindset, and the foundation of socialism and communism.
You should read more about green energy, you have a really pessimist view. Green technology is evolving fast. Giant batteries, for example, are now used to store green energy and put it on the grid when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/renewable-energy-competition-market

Where I live we run on 98% clean electricity, and our grid is really solid. Transport is more problematic, but we are getting there.

With that thinking of yours we would move around with horses and coal trains. Of course it's a transition but the market is moving in the right direction. The faster the better. The cost of doing nothing and keep fossil fuels will be terrible.
 
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Is it too much to ask for competence?
I don't know. Ask Trump supporters. Because he is certainly not competent and yet I see excuses and defenses for him all the time.


Hell for the better part of a year when he first took office him being new was a widely used excuse to hand wave his faults and shortcomings. Yet curiously I don't see AOC getting that same treatment.


I wonder why.....:unsure::unsure::unsure:
 
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OSC

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It was just an anaology, don't mean we should treat prisoners horribly. Just that prison is a form of deterence because its not a nice place, even if its as humane as possible. If Jail was nicer than where you live now there wouldn't be a reason to not commit crime.
Even now, I think those who've been to jail actually might be trained to become better criminals. The tarnishing of their reputation as excons might also make getting good job opportunities more difficult to attain.

The principal deterrent to immoral behavior is the human innate sense of morality. If providing a decent abode is more than most people can attain with the average wage, than perhaps that should also be provided to them, because their wage would clearly be below a living wage. An adequate abode should also be provided to the homeless, and treatment to those that need it.
 
Feb 21, 2018
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Even now, I think those who've been to jail actually might be trained to become better criminals. The tarnishing of their reputation as excons might also make getting good job opportunities more difficult to attain.

The principal deterrent to immoral behavior is the human innate sense of morality. If providing a decent abode is more than most people can attain with the average wage, than perhaps that should also be provided to them, because their wage would clearly be below a living wage. An adequate abode should also be provided to the homeless, and treatment to those that need it.
anyways don't want to get into a big prison debate that would be OT. Maybe my analogy wasn't a good one. It was just to drive home the point that if detention at the border isn't bad and is better then where they are coming from, there is no reason why people won't just try to cross illegally. Because they will have a better life in border detention then in El Salvador or Mexico or Gutamala or wherever.
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
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It's also about $12,000 for every woman, man and child in the United States.
This is an exceptionally stupid way to quantify the government's contribution to the GDP though.

Every government worker pays taxes, and spends money within the economy. When the government needs to build infrastructure they hire contractors who have to purchase capital goods to build things, which in turn employs people to build the equipment. Those workers also pay taxes and contribute to the economy. Government spending isn't lighting money on fire and burning it, like what those on the right think it is. It is economic contribution no different than private industry.
 
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This is an exceptionally stupid way to quantify the government's contribution to the GDP though.

Every government worker pays taxes, and spends money within the economy. When the government needs to build infrastructure they hire contractors who have to purchase capital goods to build things, which in turn employs people to build the equipment. Those workers also pay taxes and contribute to the economy. Government spending isn't lighting money on fire and burning it, like what those on the right think it is. It is economic contribution no different than private industry.
I thought this was a trusted source; https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/

Please provide something more fitting
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
Sep 29, 2014
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I thought this was a trusted source; https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/

Please provide something more fitting
I'm not saying the source material is incorrect. But when people see the numbers they can't process the bigger picture or deeper impact into the economy that government spending actually has. Same with large corporate spending. Automotive bailouts softened the much harder landing that was possible after '08, and so did government spending at that time. If just one of the big 3 went fully under, it could have bankrupted the tiers beneath those behemoths, damaging the supply base for the other automakers, and driving more jobs to go overseas. Much of the manufacturing resurgence we are seeing now is because we didn't let the big 3 fail. Same goes with government spending.