• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Reports of Windows 8.1 causing mouse lag

Arulan

Member
Dec 14, 2010
3,712
3
0
United States
http://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/1oor43/windows_81_warning_for_gamers_issues_with/

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-10-21-windows-8-1-causing-mouse-lag-that-badly-affects-games

From Mark Cranness (Creator of the Windows 7/8 Mouse Acceleration Fix)

I've seen this 8.1 lag in a tool I wrote/modified to record and debug mouse movement.
It is real lag, and as OP said, affects games that don't use Raw Input (or DirectInput, which is more-or-less the same thing) for reading the mouse.
When I first saw this lag in 8.1, I improved the debug detail of the recording tool a lot, to see if that might help explain what was happening. Before the improvements, the recording tool pretty much showed : "WTF? something is strange". The improvements clearly showed lag between mouse movement happening and Windows updating the pointer position.
(Updating the pointer position matters because games that don't use Raw Input or DirectInput to read the mouse usually instead look at how the on-screen mouse pointer moves to decide what the mouse must have done - aka old-style Quake GetCursorPos calls to read mouse movement. If Windows doesn't update the pointer position in a timely manner, the game mouse will lag.)
Seeing that it IS a problem is as far as I've gone so far in diagnosing it.
BTW, the fix above (EXE Properties) doesn't seem to affect my recording tool at all : It still shows lag.
The tool is MouseMovementRecorder.exe, part of the MarkC mouse fix, if you want to experiment, get it from here: The MarkC Windows 8.1 + 8 + 7 Mouse Acceleration Fix MouseMovementRecorder.exe is inside that ZIP file (in an embedded ZIP file).
Some MouseMovementRecorder.exe keyboard key commands that help show the problem: * E : Toggle showing of extra detail. * + : Increase maximum catchup delay. * A : Toggle 'Enhance pointer precision' Acceleration.
If you don't already have the Control Panel > Mouse > 'Enhance pointer precision' checkbox OFF, then press > "A" key until EnPtPr shows Off. If you don't have the Control Panel pointer speed slider set to 6/11 (the middle position), press "6" key. Press "+" key until the displayed Max catchup delay is 8000 or even 64000.
Move the mouse and often you will see pointer movement recorded 2000µs or 5000µs or more after the mouse movement. (Jiggle the mouse when testing : smooth or straight movements might confuse the matchup-process that MouseMovementRecorder uses. Pay attention to blocks where the numbers match; probably ignore blocks that don't match and display red or green.)
Some users have reported this as a temporary fix, however it's unclear if it applies to all cases:

Run the program in compatibility mode for Windows 8.
Disable display scaling on high DPI.
Run this program as an administrator.
 

Lexxon

Member
Mar 25, 2008
766
0
0
Central MA
Huh, I have thought that my mouse use just on the desktop has been a little funny. I kept changing the sensitivity on my mouse since it has 3 options via mouse buttons. Hope this is fixed soon.

i'm good to go.

Windows 8.1 won' t install for me...
Do you just not get the install option in the store? If you have a tech net or volume license copy, you have to install via a new ISO and put in a new key. Pain in the ass.
 

SumGamer

Member
May 1, 2006
2,682
0
1,065
Played couple of matches in DotA 2 and see no lag whatsoever. Then again, I mostly just play casually.
 

Sethos

Banned
Apr 9, 2009
18,139
0
0
Denmark
Windows 8.1 and no mouse lag for me at all. Same as Windows 8. Also using mouse accel fix if that matters. Also here's a fix for the people that do have lag:

http://www.windowsblogitalia.com/2013/10/guida-per-risolvere-i-lag-del-mouse-nei-giochi-con-windows-8-1/

Gotta use google translate.
That is what is explained in the OP / Reddit link. It doesn't effect raw input games and the 'fix' is making games do raw input, however not all games do that and therein lies the problem. It's the guy that made the mouse acceleration fix that is saying this.
 

Myshkin

Member
Oct 4, 2012
901
0
0
No excuses.
Silicon Graphics had buttery smooth mousing with less than 0.04 gflops, 0.1 gips.
 

Damian.

Banned
Jun 19, 2012
2,137
0
0
I haven't played any M&KB games on 8.1 besides BF4 to see if it is worse than 8. Mouse movement in the OS feels about the same as Windows 8 the few weeks I have been using it on an Nvidia 680 desktop and a Radeon laptop. What about the option to enhance pointer precision? I have it turned off on both, should I keep it off?
 

infinityBCRT

Member
Jun 2, 2008
8,304
0
815
Sounds like the OS fixes issues with janky mouses making erratic movements, but that causes problems with games because you usually make erratic movements while playing a game.
 

Arulan

Member
Dec 14, 2010
3,712
3
0
United States
are the polling rates still unaffected?
From the Reddit OP:

Continuing my search around the internet, it seems to affect users that use high DPI mouses and high polling-rate mouses more than users who use basic hardware. Inconsistencies about how this affects users with mice that have on-board memory have risen though.
I haven't played any M&KB games on 8.1 besides BF4 to see if it is worse than 8. Mouse movement in the OS feels about the same as Windows 8 the few weeks I have been using it on an Nvidia 680 desktop and a Radeon laptop. What about the option to enhance pointer precision? I have it turned off on both, should I keep it off?
You want to keep Enhance Point Precision turned off. I'm not using Windows 8.1 so I can't test this out myself, but in Windows 7 that option essentially introduced an acceleration curve into your mouse movement. Certain games that didn't use Raw Input (or DirectInput) would call that for mouse movement. The MarkC Acceleration Fix essentially just changes the "acceleration curve" into a linear response, so even if a game does use that pointer it doesn't add acceleration.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Jan 5, 2008
23,625
2
0
wat?

Are you fucking kidding me?
Getting true access to your mouse is something only an administrator is allowed to you know.

Edit: Just fired up Human Revolution and it's actually quite a bit smoother than it was before. Not a single hint of any dreadful mouselag, no more than what Triple Buffered Vsync introduces anyway.
 

Xanathus

Member
Mar 25, 2006
6,113
0
1,265
There's practically zero reason to update to 8.1 from 8 if you're a desktop user, the multitudes of potential cons far outweigh the pros.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Jan 5, 2008
23,625
2
0
There's practically zero reason to update to 8.1 from 8 if you're a desktop user, the multitudes of potential cons far outweigh the pros.
Except the things they added that makes life easier for desktop users like boot to desktop.

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, I haven't had a single issue with upgrading to 8.1. Friend of mine had tons. Laptops seem to be affected way worse.
 

Dynoro

Member
Dec 16, 2008
2,488
0
0
UK
Played through the whole of MW2 yesterday on 8.1 on M/KB and didn't notice any lag - maybe I'm just not susceptible to it.
 

derExperte

Member
Jun 11, 2012
16,492
0
540
Was about to say that I've been using the 8.1 preview for months, changed to RTM weeks ago and haven't noticed the problem in any game and I've played a lot.

But now in DX:HR when I move the cursor over one of the buttons in the main menu it hangs and I have to jerk the mouse around to get it to move. Movement is fine when not over the buttons and in-game, even in the menus there. Is that it or is something else borked? How strange, will have to test more. add: Lag everywhere when in the Exit Game dialog.

There's practically zero reason to update to 8.1 from 8 if you're a desktop user, the multitudes of potential cons far outweigh the pros.
I disagree, there are many small improvements that I don't want to miss anymore and this mouselag is the first and so far only disadvantage I know of. But it's a big one of course.
 

Xanathus

Member
Mar 25, 2006
6,113
0
1,265
Except the things they added that makes life easier for desktop users like boot to desktop.

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, I haven't had a single issue with upgrading to 8.1. Friend of mine had tons. Laptops seem to be affected way worse.
http://www.classicshell.net/ lets you boot to desktop and have a customizable Start menu for free. Been using since release and had zero problems.

I disagree, there are many small improvements that I don't want to miss anymore and this mouselag is the first and so far only disadvantage I know of. But it's a big one of course.
That's the thing, the improvements are small but from the 8.1 thread in OT there's a fuckton of problems being reported. The minor improvements aren't worth the risk.
 

Iorv3th

Member
Jan 16, 2013
5,537
840
630

Kouriozan

Member
Mar 22, 2012
28,515
1
445
France
I think I had a strange mouse lag in one game but I don't really know if it was the game or just Windows 8.1.
It was in Awesomenauts.
 

rakkadakka

Member
Oct 27, 2011
3,335
0
0
Haven't noticed it myself, but I've only been playing Dota2 since the update.

Will keep an eye out for it in other games.
 

topplehat

Member
Apr 9, 2012
1,749
0
405
Yeah I noticed some "zig-zag" with my newer mouse going left to right across the desktop that I hadn't seen before. Maybe this is related? I continued to use my older mouse which goes smoothly
 

Dr. Zoidberg

Member
Nov 6, 2004
8,240
31
1,300
I haven't had any problems, games or otherwise. Not that I've noticed anyway. Hopefully they will issue a fix. 8.1 is a definite improvement in some ways.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Jan 5, 2008
23,625
2
0
http://www.classicshell.net/ lets you boot to desktop and have a customizable Start menu for free. Been using since release and had zero problems.


That's the thing, the improvements are small but from the 8.1 thread in OT there's a fuckton of problems being reported. The minor improvements aren't worth the risk.
I think you misunderstood me :p. I actually quite like Metro. Too lazy to set it up, but it gets more use than the start menu ever did. But more often than not, I just push windows key, start typing, bam, whatever I want is there.
 

DragonSworne

Banned
Aug 23, 2011
12,539
1
0
I wonder how this wasn't noticed.

Too much emphasis on tablet/touch controls during testing? Not enough emphasis on gaming during testing?
 

McHuj

Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,382
503
1,240
Austin, Tx.
I wonder how this wasn't noticed.

Too much emphasis on tablet/touch controls during testing? Not enough emphasis on gaming during testing?
Why would they test things that don't use RawInput/DirectInput? The onus is on the developer if they don't use built in Windows API's.
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Jan 29, 2008
36,152
5
0
Australia
I haven't found any lag issues in games, but I use raw input wherever possible, and admittedly haven't played many games since I installed.

Funny this thread exists though, as after moving from Win7 to Win8.1 I could have sworn Windows desktop itself has very slight mouse lag. I'm not sure if it's me adjusting to my mouse speed tweaks, but it really feels that general operation has this weird, very slight lag to mouse usage.
 

nubbe

Member
Jun 7, 2004
17,751
3
0
Have been using 8.1 since the RTM was released on Technet... not notice any input lag
 

Arulan

Member
Dec 14, 2010
3,712
3
0
United States
I haven't found any lag issues in games, but I use raw input wherever possible, and admittedly haven't played many games since I installed.

Funny this thread exists though, as after moving from Win7 to Win8.1 I could have sworn Windows desktop itself has very slight mouse lag. I'm not sure if it's me adjusting to my mouse speed tweaks, but it really feels that general operation has this weird, very slight lag to mouse usage.
I haven't heard a lot of follow up since the initial reports, but it looked like it is limiting the polling rate to somewhere between 125-200Hz, which would obviously affect users using 1000Hz mice the most. Others are reporting relation to high DPI settings. A OS release is usually never smooth, but I hope Microsoft actually see this as a problem.
 

OnFire331

Member
May 30, 2013
945
0
335
I haven't experienced any mouse lag but I haven't played any resource intensive games on 8.1 yet.

I think you misunderstood me :p. I actually quite like Metro. Too lazy to set it up, but it gets more use than the start menu ever did. But more often than not, I just push windows key, start typing, bam, whatever I want is there.
That's how I'm using Metro too, it's become an habit.