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Rob Pardo is sad about the community reaction [Jay’s departure from Diablo III]

Card Boy

Banned
Aug 11, 2010
17,104
1
0
VIC, Australia
The 'backlash' against Diablo 3 is the single point case study in why no one should ever take 'gamers' on the internet seriously. There were death threats for crying out loud. Because they didn't like a video game. Yea. Be proud of that one 'gamers'.
They will take us seriously when I and millions of others don't buy the SC2 and Diablo 3 expansions.
 

CoLaN

Member
May 26, 2007
847
0
0
Two words: Auction House. It wasn't inspired by the will to make the game better, but by pure greed... and it shows. It ruined the game for me more than any other questionable design decision.
 
Apr 3, 2009
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Skill and Stat progression is -very- important to me and many others I imagine.

You can tell how I show my love for this here.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46310295&postcount=64

And correct me if I'm wrong because I admit I am rather ignorant on the subject so I apologize in advance if I am in the wrong but. From what I've heard, Diablo 3 was a testing the waters experiment for cash shops in games. Even though they've been done before, this was blizzards attempt at it.

As well I've heard the "loot" system isn't up to par. Statements that stay in my mind are the ones like "the loot doesn't trigger a dopamine effect", which I imagine was more common-place in previous entries to the series. Could these loot junkies have a point?

Another thing to consider was, weren't they working on a pvp system for 3 years and then scrapped it when they felt it wouldn't work and then shoehorned in something real quickly in less than a year? If so, I'm sure that went down well.

Almost forgot the always online thing. I do not need to explain why that is bad. This shouldn't even be on here, it should have never existed as an option to begin with.

Also, I don't need to add that offensive quote from a social networking site, everyone knows what was said, pretty sure everyone's tired of it. And I know I'm tired of being let down by companies I used to trust. :[
 

kirblar

Member
Oct 9, 2010
63,320
1
660
The RMAH exists because the market for trading cash for in-game items exists, even if Blizzard does not regulate it. They made a call that it was better to have it available than not, in order to both protect players (in this era of rampant credit card/account fraud) and regulate it in order to profit from it. They weren't really wrong. It's similar to how prohibition (and parts of the "war on drugs") backfire spectacularly.

The problem was not having the RMAH- it was that instead of it being incorporated as a piece of the project, started to warp much of the design around it- things like the regular AH, the lack of an offline mode, and the lack of an incentive for players to do anything but essentially be gold farmers.
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 9, 2010
6,249
1
585
Chicago, IL
Yes it was. The itemisation and loot were terrible, in a loot game; it also happened to be the sequel to one of the best loot games ever.

It was fun for 15min periods of just clicking on stuff to watch it explode though, it was like a tech demo.
The Itemization was fine UNTIL Inferno difficulty in my opinion. I had absolutely no issues with the game until I hit inferno but maybe that is just me.
 

Zefah

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2007
39,959
13,789
1,585
The Itemization was fine UNTIL Inferno difficulty in my opinion. I had absolutely no issues with the game until I hit inferno but maybe that is just me.
No, it was never fine, because it was fucking boring.

All that ever mattered was Weapon DPS > Primary Stat > Life on Hit > All Resists > Vitality.

Everyone, of every class, was looking for the same shit. It was all about just getting bigger numbers on the small amount of stats that mattered for your class.

There was nothing interesting--no room for crazy experimental builds. Just more DPS.
 

cRIPticon

Member
Jul 25, 2006
1,764
34
1,020
Rob, this is what happens when you burn goodwill without replenishing it.

This is what happens when you promise perfection.
Except that gamers demand perfection.

This is what happens when you tell people what they should want, like, and find good in your games.
Most people know what they like due to games being made that they played and formed their tastes. Most people that have never developed games could not make a game they themselves would actually enjoy.

This is what happens when you spend more effort talking about being like a storied developer instead of working on being a storied developer.
Well, come on now. It's not as if they don't have a fantastic track record.
 
Dec 1, 2004
26,791
1
0
South Carolina
www.neogaf.com
I'm sorry you had such bad experiences, I met a ton of great friends through both games. I hope you don't let your bad experiences taint a whole community, especially when those communties consist of millions of different people.
The bad seeds know they rule the roost now. Good/interesting people keep their heads down and don't engage much at all outside their circles. Few reasons to, many reminders to "why bother".

And they merged ?
Activision head honchos are less taskmasters and more a bad influence. Hubris and "returns on investment" vs brilliance and elegance having people throw money at them.

No, it was never fine, because it was fucking boring.

All that ever mattered was Weapon DPS > Primary Stat > Life on Hit > All Resists > Vitality.

Everyone, of every class, was looking for the same shit. It was all about just getting bigger numbers on the small amount of stats that mattered for your class.

There was nothing interesting--no room for crazy experimental builds. Just more DPS.
Anyone who played WoW thru the last 5 years saw this coming. Shackled character building cant run fast.

cRIPtion said:
Except that gamers demand perfection.
And how did they get this way? Their behavior is reinforced by promises and lax standards of behavior (which is only brought up by the powers that be only to trojan horse in backfiring asocial networking hijinx); it's no surprise the inmates run the asylums, no?
 

hypostasis

Banned
Nov 9, 2012
198
0
0
The 'backlash' against Diablo 3 is the single point case study in why no one should ever take 'gamers' on the internet seriously. There were death threats for crying out loud. Because they didn't like a video game. Yea. Be proud of that one 'gamers'.
I disagree. Look at the results of Bioware's receptivity to their hypersexual fan base in the form of Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3. I wanted to fuck bisexual party members day and night, now I can; I wanted to get my skinny mini wet in some eelesque blue pussy, now I can. What marvels result from taking heed of the Gamer Community rather than using objective, means-tested criteria to design games. Would such escapades be possible if Bioware utilized the latter rather than the former? Methinks not. I rest my case.
 

StayDead

Member
Mar 10, 2011
16,154
1
0
Have half the people complaining about Diablo 3 even played it since launch?

I've just got back into it and after a few content patches and also the paragon level stuff the game is much, much better than it was at launch.
 

Thoraxes

Member
Jan 12, 2009
28,526
0
0
soundcloud.com
Sometimes I feel like people don't remember how much of a pain in the dick trading was in Diablo 2 in both time/duration and to find something you wanted.
 

spindoctor

Member
Oct 21, 2010
7,055
0
680
Probably, though I wonder why Valve fans seem more civil in general if that's the case? Then again, I don't hang out on SPUF so they could be just as bad for all I know.
Have you forgotten the L4D2 boycott drama that happened a few years ago? That was one that managed to find it's way outside the SPUF. I remember there were many other such stupid things that remained on SPUF for the most part (the Halo hat from TF2 comes to mind).

Every fanatical community has people like that, "gamers" aren't the only ones prone to insane proclamations. Just recently there was a massive backlash against a comic book writer for implementing a big change to Spider-Man and yes that included death threats.
I remember reading about that. It was pretty disgusting too. I still think it only reinforces my point though... there's only a certain amount of feedback (positive and negative) that is to be had from an online community. Beyond that it's pointless. When people go fucking crazy like they did with Diablo, they should just be ignored.

They will take us seriously when I and millions of others don't buy the SC2 and Diablo 3 expansions.
The game will still sell millions. It will still be among the highest selling PC games of whatever year it releases in. It will still entertain people. Here's the pertinent question though... will not buying it stop you from complaining about it?
 

hypostasis

Banned
Nov 9, 2012
198
0
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It must be said clear and straight that most of us people who
What does that even mean ? . Many developers would die for fans like D2 or SC have. Diablo3 sold only because of those fans and their world of mouth.
Based on the amount of death threats leveled against certain Blizzard employees as a result of their latest work, it is conceivable such developers would die if they had fans like D2 or SC have!
 

Castor Krieg

Banned
Dec 5, 2007
7,983
0
0
Warsaw
AH destroyed the most important part of Diablo i.e. loot gathering. Nobody was farming for items, but for gold to go to AH and buy weapon 10x better than everything you could find.

It is mind-blowing how much fail this game had design-wise. I would love to learn if RMAH and the whole system was something that came from Activision or Blizzard.
 

Zertez

Member
Jan 24, 2008
2,508
0
0
If Jay Wilson would have kept some of his feelings to himself and not melt down on fans, the community, and developers of Diablo 1 and 2, he wouldnt have got the same treatment in return. He treated others like garbage and now it is coming back around. Personally I dont hate him as much as some, but understand why some do hate him. The game has come a long way since release and is improving with almost every patch. I cant complain too much, while the game was a disappointment at release I made my money back in the AH and enough to pay for all of the games I bought this year.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Feb 10, 2012
10,819
5
620
We have a talented team in place and have no intention of stopping work on Diablo III until it is the best game in the franchise.
So basically they are going to scrap at least 50% of what's there and rebuild it? Sounds legit.

AH destroyed the most important part of Diablo i.e. loot gathering. Nobody was farming for items, but for gold to go to AH and buy weapon 10x better than everything you could find.

It is mind-blowing how much fail this game had design-wise. I would love to learn if RMAH and the whole system was something that came from Activision or Blizzard.
It wasn't just the AH by itself that was the problem, unless you think that the AH is the sole reason the loot itself was the most boring ever seen in an action/RPG grindfest like this. The leveling and skill progression was pretty terrible too, although it still wasn't as bad as the loot--which was the main reason to play.

Diablo III was my first Diablo
I'm so sorry. Not sure how old you are, but you missed out pretty big not having played the first two prior to it.
 

oconnomiyaki

Member
Apr 12, 2007
2,442
0
0
My only issue with Diablo III was they offered it to WoW players as a reason to sub for a year and then released a game that wouldn't necessarily run on rigs that could run WoW. Just seemed totally disingenuous.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Feb 10, 2012
10,819
5
620
My only issue with Diablo III was they offered it to WoW players as a reason to sub for a year and then released a game that wouldn't necessarily run on rigs that could run WoW. Just seemed totally disingenuous.
What on Earth are you talking about? Diablo III's minimum specs were LOW just like most Blizzard games. Unless you were playing on a laptop from 2002, I have no idea how you couldn't run the game.
 

Rajack

Member
Oct 14, 2012
1,531
141
710
Portland, OR
My problem with Diablo 3 is it had none of the depth and inherent replayability that Diablo 2 had. They basically turned the entire game into a RNG gear game where you could pay to win.
 

oconnomiyaki

Member
Apr 12, 2007
2,442
0
0
What on Earth are you talking about? Diablo III's minimum specs were LOW just like most Blizzard games. Unless you were playing on a laptop from 2002, I have no idea how you couldn't run the game.
You can run WoW on some pretty low-end machines. For ages I was playing it on a 2008 MacBook (not pro) with 2GB of RAM.

Currently, I'm rocking a Vaio S with an i5, 8GB of RAM, and a 6470M and I can't get anything worth bothering with out of Diablo III.

Although, weirdly, at launch I had a nice experience. 30FPS on medium. A couple of patches later and I was getting 10FPS on lowest settings... and just gave up.
 

Xater

Member
Jul 28, 2007
48,003
4
0
The Diablo 3 backlash is crazy. I played the game for 60 hours and loved every minute of it. I also played the new darling of the Diablo 3 haters called Torchlight 2 and it's alright. Not as much fun. Love all the comfort Diablo 3 introduced.
 

Kosma

Banned
Feb 22, 2007
10,841
0
1,085
Whats the FUCK YOU LOSER thing?

I havent been following D3 too much since launch cause it sucks so Im out of the loop.

The Diablo 3 backlash is crazy. I played the game for 60 hours and loved every minute of it. I also played the new darling of the Diablo 3 haters called Torchlight 2 and it's alright. Not as much fun. Love all the comfort Diablo 3 introduced.
Yeah Diablo 3 is a huge dissapointment riddled with horrible decisions but people saying Torchlight 2 is better are mad cray.
 

Returners

Member
Dec 27, 2007
4,324
0
1,010
Ontario, Canada
The whole fact is that Jay didn't need to make a post about "leaving" the Diablo III team, he could've walked away from it quietly like many of the developers/designers when their product fails (or suffers backlash from loyal fans)

To make a public post is like saying, "Look I'm off the project now, find someone else to blame for the misdesigns".

Unfortunately, no matter who takes over, they're still building off this damn base game that can't get off the train of max-ing DPS.

Any additional content is purely story to play for me, I can't see myself spending more time getting another character to 60 or whatever their next level for expansion is.
 

Swig_

Member
Sep 7, 2010
1,761
1
665
Do people aside from the hack'n'slash addicts even play D3 anymore? I played it for about 2 weeks after launch and completely lost interest. I couldn't imagine having any drive to play it 6+ months out. It'd be interesting to see the numbers. Lack of PVP, lack of replayability and the AH ruined it for me.

Doubt I'll buy an expansion.. Maybe down the road, heavily discounted.

Worst day one purchase I've ever made.
 

xenist

Member
Mar 9, 2012
6,421
0
0
Oh god, it's "Fuckthatlosergate" again. Along with the whole circus of ridiculous complaints.

There was one problem with D3. The itemization formulas had to account for a giant shared pool of loot. Which made the really cool drops, really really rare. It still wasn't that much worse than the situation with item trading in D2. With everything else I fail to see where the complaints are coming from. The writing is bad? Really? As opposed to the good writing of the previous games?

Did I play less D3 than D2? Sure. I will go so far as saying it's not as good a game. It's still the best ARPG since D2:LOD.
 

Brickhunt

Member
Dec 1, 2010
837
1
0
Brazil
Can't really say anything about D3, only that, despite being a huge fan of Diablo II, I refuse to buy a game that I have to stay online to even play (The same goes to SimCity), so I can't deny that I'm enjoying a lot the fire the game and the team has been under these last months. Even though I have a good internet connection, I refuse to support this kind of bullshit.
 

Morokh

Member
Jan 17, 2010
3,207
0
0
France
Yeah Diablo 3 is a huge dissapointment riddled with horrible decisions but people saying Torchlight 2 is better are mad cray.
Then call me mad, but Torchlight 2 is better than Diablo 3 on many key aspects of the genre, and the fact that they were able to deliver this kind of experience in only two years with a small team of only 20 people doesn't help D3's case and the time and resources put into it a single bit.
 

Ploid 3.0

Member
Jun 6, 2004
28,302
4
1,510
Ok after farming from Friday to today I got nothing but crap loot. My Templar is loaded with MF, monster level 2 for speed, and paragon level 30 +. I got a ton of yellows but nothing worth putting on the ah really. The Legendaries (Gladiator gauntlets, and 2 bad weapons) were sold to the NPC because I didn't even want to give them the satisfaction of being turned into brimstone (I imagine stones are dirt cheap now anyway).

I wanted the farming to be worthwhile by now but the most I got out of doing this was I got to watch some movies I was putting off watching for some reason. How are people still playing this, why? And how are people getting so lucky with these 100mil items, heck 50mil or whatever items.

Edit: I should start back playing Torchlight 2. I stopped because joining friends was a bit buggy near release. I tried to sync my levels with my friends so we could go through it.
 

mephixto

Member
Aug 28, 2009
2,161
0
745
What was everyone's problem with Jay? I tried reading through some of those threads but all I saw was just vitriol.
Well pretty much people wanted Diablo 2 on 3D in a new engine, Blizzard made a brand new game with new mechanics, but fans hated it.
 

nbthedude

Banned
Dec 30, 2011
4,606
0
0
Diablo III was my first Diablo, and while I found it to be pretty polished, it wasn't very fun. If that's what fans of the series are getting on him for, then I think it's well-deserved. For a game that prior to release many had pre-ordained GOTY, it seemed to show up on very few GOTY lists. Probably not what Blizzard wanted.
That is exactly the problem with it. It wasn't a badly made game. It was just very uninspired and paint by numbers in most regards. The storyline was bad (it got more and more absurd and unnecessarily verbose as it went). The artwork was drab. The mechanics tried nothing really new.

People expected more from Blizzard especially after so many years. Torchlight 2 came out amd essentially matched it in feature sets with better art and character design, better multiplayer and more flexibility and it was made by a tiny team and cost 1/3rd the price.
 

ntropy

Member
Apr 25, 2008
3,578
188
1,030
Oh god, it's "Fuckthatlosergate" again. Along with the whole circus of ridiculous complaints.

There was one problem with D3. The itemization formulas had to account for a giant shared pool of loot. Which made the really cool drops, really really rare. It still wasn't that much worse than the situation with item trading in D2. With everything else I fail to see where the complaints are coming from. The writing is bad? Really? As opposed to the good writing of the previous games?

Did I play less D3 than D2? Sure. I will go so far as saying it's not as good a game. It's still the best ARPG since D2:LOD.
 

VandalD

Member
May 25, 2010
2,408
0
0
I could see the D3 expansion flopping (relatively speaking). I don't see the SC2 expansion doing the same though.
Relatively, yeah, but not enough to matter. Not anything near a flop. Fans, bitching or not, will continue to buy Blizzard games and attempt to beg them to fix their shit. We want LAN. Please give it to us? We'll buy Heart of the Swarm. Please? And could you maybe add PVP to D3 and make the AH optional?

Oh god, it's "Fuckthatlosergate" again. Along with the whole circus of ridiculous complaints.

There was one problem with D3. The itemization formulas had to account for a giant shared pool of loot. Which made the really cool drops, really really rare. It still wasn't that much worse than the situation with item trading in D2. With everything else I fail to see where the complaints are coming from. The writing is bad? Really? As opposed to the good writing of the previous games?

Did I play less D3 than D2? Sure. I will go so far as saying it's not as good a game. It's still the best ARPG since D2:LOD.
We could argue about how good the story is compared to the other games if you want, but they were actually trying to make a good story this time. It's apparent in how they shove it in your face when you play the game again in higher difficulties. I thought D2's story was decent anyway, though it was more just a reason to go to the next area and kill some shit, which is fine by me. It didn't get in the way.
 

scytheavatar

Member
Jul 30, 2008
2,561
0
0
Oh god, it's "Fuckthatlosergate" again. Along with the whole circus of ridiculous complaints.
Whether or not D3 sucks is debatable. What that is not debatable is the fact that Jay Wilson and the guys at Blizzard South was extremely disrespectful to someone who praised D3 and was just pointing out how he would have improved that game. Read the interview again:

What do you think of Diablo 3?

David Brevik: They did a decent job. The game's pretty fun. There's lots of stuff they made some advancements on the whole Diablo franchise. But it is not the game I would have designed. It is not the game I originally designed for Diablo 3.

What advancements?

David Brevik: Some of the story stuff they did was much better than we'd ever done story before, and in that way it created a very different experience. Being able to be able to teleport to the other players and allow people to group up in a much easier fashion, those were some of the things that stood out to me as being much better than we had done before.

What do you feel fell short?

David Brevik: The skill system was very different than what we ever designed before. It played more like a load-out system from a shooter, which was a very different approach than we had ever even contemplated. I don't know if that necessarily works super well. Being able to change your build at any given time on the fly was a little bit too generous. So it fell down a little bit there.

There are other specific things, especially with the items and your main weapon powering a lot of your skills that were choices I would have not made.

What's your take on Blizzard's decision to make Diablo 3 always online?

David Brevik: I'm making a game that's always online, but it's different. I wouldn't make the same choices they made.

The fact is that it took a lot of time and money to make that game, and piracy is a problem. When you cannot manage that at all there are certain in which you're going to lose a lot of money. It comes down to, this is a business in the end, and when you spend that much time and effort on something, you've got to have some sort of path to recovery. Unfortunately it's a business choice more than anything.
Did David Brevik say anything that justified the "fuck that loser" response?
 

spirity

Member
Aug 4, 2007
4,184
0
0
Well, I can't say I blame Pardo for making a post like that. He's trying to protect his friend and employee, and trying to stamp out fires. He doesn't want Jay Wilson's reputation following him to his new post, especially if he's going to be visible. I don't think he can shake that rep now, but I can't blame Pardo for trying to spread the blame a bit.