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Round 2 of Round 2 Official Democrat Debate thread Get your tickets to the LMAOest show on earth! (Debate thread 7/31/19)

(Predictions) Who will win?


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PkunkFury

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You might be right. Taking money away from the government is always good but realize where that money is coming from.
Under Yang's plan, it's coming from the highest spenders via implementation of a VAT tax. This also plays into your concerns about Middle Class. Basically, anyone who spends more than $120,000 a year will be funding the UBI. Anyone who spends less than $120,000 a year will gain. There are some caveats

Also, anyone who is here illegaly funds the UBI full stop
 
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finowns

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Here it is.

I missed it live too, so I don't know if Harris had a good comeback. Pretty spicy though. Don't know how you act friendly with someone after saying that.
Hmm.. people usually don't go to jail for marijuana in California it might be probation violations.
 

finowns

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Under Yang's plan, it's coming from the highest spenders via implementation of a VAT tax. This also plays into your concerns about Middle Class. Basically, anyone who spends more than $120,000 a year will be funding the UBI. Anyone who spends less than $120,000 a year will gain. There are some caveats

Also, anyone who is here illegaly funds the UBI full stop
That's another tax. $120,000 is already taxed 40% here California. Let people keep their money THEY earn.
 

PkunkFury

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That's another tax. $120,000 is already taxed 40% here California. Let people keep their money THEY earn.
Yes, it's another tax, but it's a tax coupled with a rebate. A 10% tax on spending coupled with a $1000 a month rebate. so you have to spend more than $10,000 a month in order to pay into the system

I'm confused, you said
You know I'm actually ok with the 1000 dollar dividend. But first give it to the middle class the 1000 bucks they earned and are made to tribute to the government (most inefficient organization ever created).
I'm pointing out that the benefits do go to the Lower and Middle classes first, which seems to be what you are asking for
If you would like the Middle Class to receive a 1000 dollar dividend, where do you want the money to come from?
 

finowns

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Yes, it's another tax, but it's a tax coupled with a rebate. A 10% tax on spending coupled with a $1000 a month rebate. so you have to spend more than $10,000 a month in order to pay into the system

I'm confused, you said


I'm pointing out that the benefits do go to the Lower and Middle classes first, which seems to be what you are asking for
If you would like the Middle Class to receive a 1000 dollar dividend, where do you want the money to come from?
Out of the 4 trillion dollars the government routinely misuses.
 

pramod

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Looking at Biden tonight...is he really going to be able to last all the way until next November?
 

PkunkFury

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Out of the 4 trillion dollars the government routinely misuses.
well, this isn't specific enough to say whether or not I agree, you have to identify where the 4 trillion you are cutting will come from. In my experience, politicians rarely make such specifications, which is why I'm happy Yang at least laid out specifics

The dividend is funded in part by cuts to welfare programs, as you will have to chose one or the other, and some will chose the UBI. Also in part by services such as prisons and state care facilities, since you're UBI will redirect towards state care when you are a ward of the state. But the VAT is also a major component. The VAT and UBI work synergistic-ally, because either could be scaled against the other to change the net revenue at different economic levels. It's a clever way of handling it, but if the added tax scares you, I get it. There are other means of funding UBI which you may be more happy with, I hope to see a bigger push for this from both parties in the future
 
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Yes, it's another tax, but it's a tax coupled with a rebate. A 10% tax on spending coupled with a $1000 a month rebate. so you have to spend more than $10,000 a month in order to pay into the system

I'm confused, you said


I'm pointing out that the benefits do go to the Lower and Middle classes first, which seems to be what you are asking for
If you would like the Middle Class to receive a 1000 dollar dividend, where do you want the money to come from?
Wait let me get this straight. It's funded with a tax that only happens if someone spends over 10k a month and that tax than goes into paying for 1k dividen to go out to everybody thus moving what would be a purchase only going to one sector of the economy into multiple sectors....... That's actually clever.
 
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oagboghi2

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where are the wires crossed here? do you not understand the definition of "freedom"?

the dividend gives some of the capital that has been frozen at the top back to the people. That capital provides the people the freedom to maneuver in ways they can't when they are stifled by debt. It gives them the freedom to move away from crowded cities they are forced to work in. It's not hard to understand

Freedom isn't free
Inflation isnt freedom
 

PkunkFury

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Wait let me get this straight. It's funded with a tax that only happens if someone spends over 10k a month and that tax than goes into paying for 1k dividen to go out to everybody thus moving what would be a purchase only going to one sector of the economy into multiple sectors....... That's actually clever.
great minds think alike :messenger_beaming:

But the VAT is also a major component. The VAT and UBI work synergistic-ally, because either could be scaled against the other to change the net revenue at different economic levels. It's a clever way of handling it, but if the added tax scares you, I get it.
I don't want to derail too much, it's currently being discussed in a bit more depth here. You'll know you're in the right thread based on the mountain of drivel @Afro Republican left at the top


Inflation isnt freedom
And a UBI funded by redistribution of wealth from high consumers to everybody (money is not being created) won't cause inflation (aside from possibly in economic sectors where supply is scarce). Also being discussed more here.
Consider discussion of inflation that occurred after the 4 trillion dollar bank, it didn't effect CPI, it effected the areas of scarcity where the people who received the bailout spent

there are good arguments against UBI, but most economists will agree inflation isn't one of them (unless the money is being printed). The UBI won't change how supply and demand works, it merely increases demand in certain general population sectors. Only things supply constrained would be effected, but new demand creates new markets. It's a pandora's box really, and I fully admit there are many unknowns
 
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oagboghi2

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great minds think alike :messenger_beaming:



I don't want to derail too much, it's currently being discussed in a bit more depth here. You'll know you're in the right thread based on the mountain of drivel @Afro Republican left at the top




And a UBI funded by redistribution of wealth from high consumers to everybody (money is not being created) won't cause inflation (aside from possibly in economic sectors where supply is scarce). Also being discussed more here.
Consider discussion of inflation that occurred after the 4 trillion dollar bank, it didn't effect CPI, it effected the areas of scarcity where the people who received the bailout spent

there are good arguments against UBI, but most economists will agree inflation isn't one of them (unless the money is being printed). The UBI won't change how supply and demand works, it merely increases demand. Mostly things supply constrained would be effected
The money will be printed. This idea that you will fund a yearly and growing trillion+ ubi based solely off a VAT and cuts is laughable.
 

PkunkFury

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The money will be printed. This idea that you will fund a yearly and growing trillion+ ubi based solely off a VAT and cuts is laughable.
the math works on paper, laugh all you like
I admit it won't work as smoothly in practice, but I've yet to hear a better solution to the many problems such a simple thing to implement would solve
I'm open to your ideas
 
Oct 12, 2005
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listening to these CNN hosts talk about “we need a fighter” “we need a leader to beat Trump” just shows how impartial the news media has become

true biased colors on full display
 
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oagboghi2

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the math works on paper, laugh all you like
I admit it won't work as smoothly in practice, but I've yet to hear a better solution to the many problems such a simple thing to implement would solve
I'm open to your ideas
The math "works" becuase ubi supporters areincredibly generous in their proposed scenarios

What makes you think the current democratic party will cut spending? Have you seen the democrats talk lately? Neither will the republicans

Also, a VAT will not bring in as much money as you imagine. A tax increase that large will effect how people spend, especially if you only target it at those who spend 10k an over a month
 

Joe T.

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listening to these CNN hosts talk about “we need a fighter” “we need a leader to beat Trump” just shows how impartial the news media has become

true biased colors on full display
Yup, it's out there for all to see, even though they're still desperately clinging to the idea that they're an impartial source anytime they're challenged on air.

I tuned in to MSNBC tonight again after the debates and they had Michael Moore on pushing for Michelle Obama to jump into the race because it's "not enough to beat Trump, we need to crush him and she could crush him."
 

autoduelist

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If you give the homeless 1k a month they will drink you under the table and still need services.

If you give the addicts 1k a month you will solve the problem via overdoses within a year.

If you give artists 1k a month they will spend it on ramen and weed and never get that job.

If you give renters 1k a month landlords will make a killing as rent skyrockets as everyone fights to get the next person's slightly better apartment.

If you give upper middle class 1k a month they'll do a few repairs, get a new tv, a and spend the rest overseas on vacation. Or bank it.

Oh, and inflation.

We don't need to worry about anything like ubi yet.

If we really want to spend 12k per person per year, we could come up with some kick ass trade programs to teach skills.
 
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TheSadRanger

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It's hard to believe we're only in the second round of debates and the party is already so fractured and boy does it show. Stick around for the show because we're witnessing the complete self destruction of the democratic party.

Looking at Biden tonight...is he really going to be able to last all the way until next November?
He's the only shot the dems have a legitimate chance in beating Trump with. None of the other popular ultra left candidates will get the votes that even Hillary got.
 

pel1300

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Best performance: Tulsi by far
2nd best: eh....Biden I guess
Worst performance: Kirtsetn Gillabrandt or Kamala Harris
Best closing statement: Yang by far

 

Texas Pride

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It's hard to believe we're only in the second round of debates and the party is already so fractured and boy does it show. Stick around for the show because we're witnessing the complete self destruction of the democratic party.



He's the only shot the dems have a legitimate chance in beating Trump with. None of the other popular ultra left candidates will get the votes that even Hillary got.

The guy couldn't even remember his own website info. And I believe he mentioned 8 more years of Trump. It's like he's being forced to run for something that has clearly passed his old ass by. Gabbard is the true middle ground to possibly push Trump but nobody wants to hear it so they'll lose again. Biden coasting off his former VP post only goes so far. And all that is besides his "creepy Joe" bullshit. Honestly if people thought Hillary was "frail" how the fuck do you take Biden seriously?
 
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Hotspurr

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I was kinda hoping Yang would mention Alaska and their oil dividend. He did a good job overall but tried to push UBI a bit much.

"Free money" sounds cheap to me, but maybe that's just the reality facing Western civilization. If one day a great deal of jobs will be machine based and most low level jobs can be automated, unless everyone is retrained there will be some very unpleasant transition period with a lot of mental health problems.

Having affordable education, better access to healthcare, reducing war, sustainable living to avoid climate disaster and being able to support your family (or even plan for one) all sound like good things but unfortunately I don't see Trump targetting these. He lowered taxes which cause job growth...great, what a creative and bold new idea. His tax cuts didn't pay for themselves like he had hoped, and now he screwed over many people with the trade war. What do the Republicans have left to offer at this point?

Around the world there are plenty of successful models for a better healthcare and education system - how is it that the greatest country on the world ranks no where near the top in these categories? 'll tell you how, special interest groups and propaganda have convinced Americans that poor people are leeches, the American dream is still alive, and that having nice things for everyone is a foolish dream while they keep guzzling cash and profits and laughing all the way to the bank.
 

Eiknarf

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The problem started with the assholes asking the questions/the way they preface it:
“According to the President’s racial tweets this week...”

It’s like, SCREW YOU! Saying that Baltimore is infested with rats is not racial or racist.

Imagine someone at the Republican debates started a question with, “According to Obama’s treasonous act this week...” !?!?!
 

Afro Republican

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hahaha "stop shilling"? from you? really?

You named yourself @Afro Republican on a gaming forum

You shill constantly, and I can see that Yang really bugs you; it's fun to watch you squirm

While I agree it won't happen, it's not a bad idea

and where am I contradicting Yang? He's specifically pointed out that the UBI will revitalize failing communities. He said so multiple times in this very debate. And even if it he hadn't, it's UBI I support, not Yang. And this is a property of UBI which you aren't refuting, you're just pretending it's the person that matters more than the policy. How delightfully empty

You think you're so smart, why not show where I'm wrong rather than capping a whole thread with 443 words worth of empty, whiny nonsense

You can't form a coherent argument beyond "UBI-Man Bad!"
You mean a thread that was clearly sarcastic that even a two year old could figure out?

You don't know what you're talking about, and you don't understand why it won't work. The fact you think I'm focusing on yang instead of UBI when I keep addressing the UBI shows youro desperate. You don't even understand the long term issues with such a system.

You need to go outside more, stop shilling, and get your mental health checked
It's not going to happen nor is it a good idea, and you're way to aggressive on this issue. If you want people to agree with bad policies there's that other site you can go to. ;)
 

DeepEnigma

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hahaha "stop shilling"? from you? really?

You named yourself @Afro Republican on a gaming forum

You shill constantly, and I can see that Yang really bugs you; it's fun to watch you squirm

While I agree it won't happen, it's not a bad idea

and where am I contradicting Yang? He's specifically pointed out that the UBI will revitalize failing communities. He said so multiple times in this very debate. And even if it he hadn't, it's UBI I support, not Yang. And this is a property of UBI which you aren't refuting, you're just pretending it's the person that matters more than the policy. How delightfully empty

You think you're so smart, why not show where I'm wrong rather than capping a whole thread with 443 words worth of empty, whiny nonsense

You can't form a coherent argument beyond "UBI-Man Bad!"
You seem upset.

 
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Teletraan1

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They did seem upset. First post by them I actually fully read because it wasn't 40 500 word paragraphs of empty nonsense. Pot meet kettle.
 

Sub_Level

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To qualify for the next debate, Tulsi (and other dems) must reach 2% in at least 4 of the following polls by August 28:

The Associated Press
ABC News
CBS News
CNN
The Des Moines Register
Fox News
Monmouth University
NBC News
The New York Times
NPR
Quinnipiac
the University of New Hampshire
The Wall Street Journal
USA Today
The Washington Post
Winthrop University

Additional she must have 130,000 unique donors spread across at least 20 states.
 
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DeepEnigma

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To qualify for the next debate, Tulsi (and other dems) must reach 2% in at least 4 of the following polls by August 28:

The Associated Press
ABC News
CBS News
CNN
The Des Moines Register
Fox News
Monmouth University
NBC News
The New York Times
NPR
Quinnipiac
the University of New Hampshire
The Wall Street Journal
USA Today
The Washington Post
Winthrop University

Additional she must have 130,000 unique donors spread across at least 20 states.
Hard to reach that when it is rigged and they don't get shit for talk time. :pie_roffles:
 
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Ornlu

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I had some volunteer work last night; unfortunately I couldn't watch the madness.

Some general takeaways from watching highlights:

1. Biden and websites do not mix. I could see him saying "How much postage do I need to pay for email?". General verbal stumbles as well.
2. Biden's doll hair/surgery job remains both impressive and disturbing. I think if people took a sip of beer every time Biden said the word "fact", they'd die of alcohol poisoning.
3. Harris looked BAD. Bumbled through the intro and said she would prosecute for 4 more years of Trump, lol.
4. Harris is not a counterpuncher. She cannot react on the feet. Got her ass beat all night for waffling and lying.
5. Yang got some good lines in.
6. Gillibrand tried to be inspiring; was very flat. Biden successfully riposted her attempt at a gotcha. Goodbye KG.
7. Tulsi remains playing her own game. I'm not sure how she breaks into getting support from the Democratic electorate, but she has done very well in these debates. She tore Harris a new asshole from out of nowhere.
8. Apparently Obama is an evil Republican according to most of the candidates?!? I get that they feel the need to bring Biden down, but maybe focus on his vast library of gaffes in Congress, rather than those attached to your formerly popular Democrat President.
9. Booker remains someone nobody cares about.
10. Julian Castro pretends to not know what "open borders" refers to, nods to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy crowd by pretending it's Republican talking points to say that open borders isn't the best idea in the world.

Good shit!
 
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DunDunDunpachi

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There's very little reason to support Kamala Harris at this point, especially after Tulsi Gabbard BTFO'd her last night.
I'm not voting Democrat anyway, but from an outsider's perspective, calling for Harris (and Biden) to step out of the race is dumb. They're two of the top polling candidates. That would leave Warren and Sanders as the new "top candidates", neither of which have a chance of winning against Trump.

Of course, Dark Horse Hillary can always swoop in...
 

Corderlain

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Watching the Dem party snap itself in half and eat their own has been pretty funny the last couple years.
 
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And notice how he never brings up things like inflation.
Of course.

Yang really thinks machines are so efficient that everyone is losing their jobs. Or they're going to lose their jobs real soon.

So, why would you have to worry about inflation in a world without work? In a robot apocalypse, growth would be through the roof because machines are just too good. Everybody is going to be replaced.

So, if everything is on autopilot and automation has it all taken care of, the Americans can sit back, relax, and get a handout just for existing. Very cool.
 

DunDunDunpachi

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Of course.

Yang really thinks machines are so efficient that everyone is losing their jobs. Or they're going to lose their jobs real soon.

So, why would you have to worry about inflation in a world without work? In a robot apocalypse, growth would be through the roof because machines are just too good. Everybody is going to be replaced.

So, if everything is on autopilot and automation has it all taken care of, the Americans can sit back, relax, and get a handout just for existing. Very cool.
Ya gotta admit, it's a better outlook that doomsday in 12 years. I'm a Christian and even I can't live my life expecting the End Times around every corner. Yang at least speaks to the underlying truth that the American economy and American innovation are on the rise. Maybe he'll be right in 50 years, but we don't need him to be president in 2020.
 

pimentel1

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Ya gotta admit, it's a better outlook that doomsday in 12 years. I'm a Christian and even I can't live my life expecting the End Times around every corner. Yang at least speaks to the underlying truth that the American economy and American innovation are on the rise. Maybe he'll be right in 50 years, but we don't need him to be president in 2020.
When the machines get angry that they are doing all the work for no pay, they will entrap us in... The Matrix.
 
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Oct 26, 2018
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Whew, what a shit show yesterday. It was basically the Biden Debate. lol

After the debate when Anderson Cooper interviews each candidate for 20 minutes, I watched all of them until the Drew Carey looking guy cam on and then I went to bed.

But Yang was definitely interesting to listen to.

Problem with him is multifold though

1. In the main debate, all he talks about is $1000/mth. Only people who care are broke people

2. In off-stage interviews he doesn't talk about it and chats about other ideas he has. Problem is none of these ideas really will resonate with everyday people. His big idea to Anderson Cooper was changing the formula how a country's GDP is calculated so it should include more than production values, and include things like teaching and homemakers with a mystery value. And add other things to GDP like people's life expectancy and health. Add it all together and you get a new GDP. Absolutely zero other countries will follow this.

Sounds good if you're the head of the federal reserve trying to determine interest rates on dollar values and undocumentable and subjective values like if teachers give kids good grades it means they are more productive than kids who get bad grades.

Not the type of shit presidents should be spending their time on.

He would probably be good in a role helping drive holistic business development and pleasant corporate cultures than being someone to rely on for border security tips.

He's also a hypocrite. On one hand he's all about taxing rich people and corporations to fund the $1000 thing, but then says to Anderson any company who succeeds in his magic formula sheet gets tax breaks.

Where's all his chat about giving tax breaks on the public stage like a typical republican candidate strives for?
 
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Miku Miku

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1. In the main debate, all he talks about is $1000/mth. Only people who care are broke people
He's a single issue candidate. He has no chance of winning. His main goals were to even qualify to be in the debates, which was not a sure thing at all. And then to introduce this new idea of UBI into the American political conversation. He succeeded in both goals, and that's all he realistically ever hoped for.
 
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Rudelord

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Dang, the Democrat split is so entertaining.
Why would Biden drop out when he's probably the most dangerous candidate to a trump reelection?
Harris is fucking done for though after Tulsi gutted her on stage.
 
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I haven't had time to watch much of this... are there any decent "supercuts" available that include all the relevant or amusing exchanges?
 

Weiji

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Does anyone have a link to the full debate? I see lots of commentary and clip shows, but I can’t seem to find a link to just the debate itself.