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RPS ambushes Blizzard director for objectification of women in Heroes of the Storm
- Thread starter usea
- Start date
I wouldn't describe Roller Derby Nova as hyper sexualized. She looks like what a female roller derby player looks like.
I would agree that videogames and MOBAs have way too much female hyper sexualization and comicbooks are even worse.
But to pin this on HotS is silly. It's a much wider topic. LoL's characters are way worse in the female exploitation area than his reference.
I agree that video games and MOBAs tend to have hyper sexualized characters. I also think that because the hobby is primarily enjoyed by young males, that there are more hyper sexualized females than there would be if more females played core video games and MOBAs.
However, I also don't have a problem with that. I have no problem with game developers and publishers trying to serve their audience.
I know the counter-arguement is that maybe more girls would play games if they didn't feel objectified. But, to me, that's always the same argument that happens with Nintendo platforms. If 3rd parties produced good games for the Nintendo platforms people would buy them! And then it's, no one buys 3rd party games on the Nintendo platform.
For MOBAs because there tend to be so many characters I do wish there was more diversity. I'm not saying we don't have to have hyper sexualized characters but there can also be non-sexed up characters as well.
I still think the RPS are superbly smug and I stopped reading the site because of it.
Douglas Quaid
Member
Male power fantasy, bro. Men can't really be objectified in the same way.
JordanN
Banned
Number of people dead from playing video games with sexual characters? 0.
I'm all for more variety with female characters but at least make the arguments more sound. It's almost as bad as when Kotaku called the Dragon's Crown artist "a 14-year old".
Haunted
Member
I think the Blizzard guys are a little bit too much in their own bubble and what they think is cool, but Dustin Browder is good people.
Blizzard is pulp and they openly admit it. They're not the ones you can look forward to leading the charge in this industry towards less misogyny and more female representation.
Blizzard is pulp and they openly admit it. They're not the ones you can look forward to leading the charge in this industry towards less misogyny and more female representation.
That doesn't mean it isn't sending messages consciously/unconsciously to the players
You don't have to want to send a message to send one nonetheless. I'm pretty sure the Blizzard people are not mysogynistic assholes, but unconsciously they may perpetuate the traditional stereotype of the sexualised imaginary woman.
This "drivel" is one of the core tenets of MOBA design, actually.
LoL's characters are the worst in that regard. It's like they decide the costume in a meeting, then they add a "stripper" prefix it to it and design it around that. Or well, they used to be for the longest time. I think they might be getting better in that respect, just barely.
I appreciate RPS for showing concern towards the topic, but I don't really think this line of questioning and type of interviews is the way to do it. Open the dialogue, don't try to catch people unaware by pretending you are some tough interviewer that will push a point until it catches someone and makes him look bad.
I would love to read a romance novel. Every time I'm in Barns and Noble and go into the Romance section, I see highly objectified men gracing the covers of romance novels. I wonder who buys the majority of romance novels.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Fuck yes.
I know this might shock you, but sometimes nobody dies and it can still be a problem.
Yes, objectification of men occurs. But objectification of women happens a lot more, to the point that we don't even question it when it happens in games and are astonished when we find an exception.
People who apply the same criteria equally to each side?
They can and are. You just have to look at magazines, posters, movies...
It's just that the male audiance doesn't give a damn about it and many women seem to enjoy it!
I would bet Nathan didn't know what Roller Derby is and how the girls dress while participating. And I bet you he didn't google to find an image prior to being offended.
Video game character design has absolutely zero effect on real life. Any girl who dresses "sexually" irl does not do so because of video games and no girl who doesn't want to dress "sexually" starts doing so because of video games.
Unless you want to talk cosplay but then lol.
Unless you want to talk cosplay but then lol.
Saintguine
Member
Just like how me playing Call of Duty and other power-tripping FPS games sends messages to me consciously/unconsciously to shoot people dead?
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
That's a legitimate criticism, in a sense, in that it could've been done better. But that's usually how these interviews are structured. The press has to play ball to some extent, in the sense that they have to talk about the game in a marketable sense, otherwise they simply won't get any more interviews. If RPS called Blizzard and said "Hey, we want to do an interview with you guys about your sexist character designs, cool?" they will hang up the fucking phone and blacklist them. This is the only way to ask these questions. Blizzard can then ignore RPS, but that would be a black eye for them, and others will pick up the torch anyway. And I think it's good. If it makes for an awkward interview, so much the better. If you can't justify your art choices without coming off as a regressive asshat (not saying Browder did), then that says it all, doesn't it? It should be awkward.
Senor Kami
Banned
Folk won't be happy until every female is in a business suit and defeats enemies using business acumen and mutual respect.
normalises violence yeah, sure
Riposte
Member
RPS, the macklemore of game media.
Games (and other mediums) do not "send" messages. People create messages while interpreting sensations (imbuing meaning into something).
If one is to concern themselves with a wider range of possible interpretations, they will likely find themselves having to choose a side between clashing ones (e.g. how does one see fan-service material, whether it is unlockables, secrets, prominent, etc).
Games (and other mediums) do not "send" messages. People create messages while interpreting sensations (imbuing meaning into something).
If one is to concern themselves with a wider range of possible interpretations, they will likely find themselves having to choose a side between clashing ones (e.g. how does one see fan-service material, whether it is unlockables, secrets, prominent, etc).
JordanN
Banned
Yeah, but until I see bodies falling after playing Dead or Alive, I don't think a developer should be held accountable for "harm" or accused of such.
WAIT!? THIS IS WHAT HE BROUGHT UP AS THE MAIN EXAMPLE OF FEMALE OBJECTIFICATION!?
Fuck RPS, I'm ready to take back everything good I've ever said about them.
I feel this is more of an indictment of their shitty alt skins than female objectification. If you want that just point out the bizarre sexual dimorphism in WoW...
Also, I've said this before, but I really wish some of the equality would be given with more male sexualization, instead of just making everyone wear "realistic clothes".
Not gonna lie, some fanarts and artworks got me interested in LoL's female characters, but I'd love if we had some sexy motherfuckers as well.
Eyecandy for everyone.
Not gonna lie, some fanarts and artworks got me interested in LoL's female characters, but I'd love if we had some sexy motherfuckers as well.
Eyecandy for everyone.
Gamers need to get consistent. Anytime someone gets on the news and blames the latest violent outburst on video games we often all say "video games do not cause violence" if that is the case then we really cannot say that they do cause all of these problems if they are currently in vogue to be offended about.
I hated the way most of the questions were asked, if they were truly asked that way. Either it's flippant, pretentious, or just plain stupid. Also, it was quite clear that the interviewer was looking to trap Browden. His line of questioning about the way women are presented in the game could have certainly come earlier, but he waited until the PR person motioned that time was running low. We go from how the maps are laid out and the map tool for the game to "MOBA tend to oversexualize..."
It was clear that this was what the interviewer was after and I expected better out of them. I...don't know why I did, but I did. Oh well.
It was clear that this was what the interviewer was after and I expected better out of them. I...don't know why I did, but I did. Oh well.
dota isn't really anywhere near as bad as league
Hmm yes equating centuries of gender inequality with "shirtless dudes" is the rational and normal thing to do
TaroYamada
Member
The idea is male characters are often designed to just be big & ugly brutes. That's partially true though I don't support the male power fantasy argument. It's also true that there a lot of male characters designed specifically to be attractive, not unlike their female counterparts, particularly in Japanese games.
Saintguine
Member
So it's a strong contributing factor since it causes desensitization to real-life violence? Much like how "sexist" characters causes real-life sexism?
Sounds like a good excuse to ban violent videogames, since people cannot realize the difference between fantasy and reality.
There have been studies that show that women are not excited the same way the men are. Men and women are different. I don't think that if we hyper sexualize men the same way women are that we're going to get more girls playing games. Men and women tend not to be turned on the same way.
Boobs sell characters and Warcraft 3 was super sexualized (the female models in that game are hilarious.).
We havent even mentioned Smite.
Holy shit Smite...
I think this absolutely is a topic worth discussing, but also this absolutely is a bad way to get meaningful discussion going. You're not going to get considered, thoughtful answers in that environment. Now, yes, the fact that you're not going to get considered, thoughtful answers could indeed be argued to in itself be an indictment - but that's all it is, it's an accusation, not a debate; an opinion piece, not an interview.
Don't get me wrong: It's a *valid* opinion piece, and it's making a good point, but there's better ways to handle it.
Don't get me wrong: It's a *valid* opinion piece, and it's making a good point, but there's better ways to handle it.
What does the centuries of gender inequality have to do with video games, again? I'm confused.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
One thing to consider is that the art direction of MOBAs and HotS is really not wholly considerate of the west. Their largest target market is likely Asia, and this type of character design is more acceptable there. So, it's likely 1. not the best target for this type of activism, 2. not a concern for Blizzard. Now, don't misunderstand his as my support for the art style. I've been playing Blizzard games and online RPGs/hybrids since the late 90s, and overly sexualized females has always been one of my biggest complaints. It's one of the primary reasons I don't play Asian MMOs. So, I assure you, I would personally be happy if Blizzard changed their art design. My point is that this is probably one game where the developer cares very little about western art feedback. Or, at the very least, much less than a console game that gets most of its revenue in the U.S. A MOBA just seems likely a poor choice to target for this.
I think this is fair position (although I think "pulp" gives them far too much credit), and his answer kind of went in that direction. I wish they'd sit down and have that conversation. I don't believe Blizzard would be as open about it as you're implying they are.
I'm glad somebody is at least making some noise about the problem though. I definitely don't have a problem with Blizzard's style existing, but I don't think it's because of a tongue-in-cheek angle or something. It's pandering plain and simple.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Games are not a single collective, with one single political opinion. Neither are developers, but somehow their output manages to stay uniform.
that's a big leap but yeah it may be a contributing factor to violence in society same with films and a lot of our popular media, its not about seeing the difference between fantasy and reality.
I was under the assumption, and correct me if I'm wrong, that he was asking a question about their art design decisions. I dont think he was giving advice. But than maybe the definition of advice changed recently.
Imperfected
Member
Not quite the right comparison.
The proper rejoinder here would be, "Just like Call of Duty sends messages to me that brave, heroic individuals are almost always gruff Caucasian men who casually swear?"
Disclaimer: Not saying this is the case or not, just that a proper tit-for-tat in this instance would be about the messaging created (intentionally or not) by choices in character design, rather than some largely-unrelated side argument about whether or not video games influence behavior.
What the fuck? What the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about the objectification, in media in general, of both sexes, with one being somehow unacceptable by a pseudo-professionally offended group and the other not even hinted at...and your answer is bringing centuries old gender inequalities to the discussion?
"I'd love to talk to you about this game we've worked hard on!"
"Why are your characters bad?"
"Oh? We like our characters! They're cool!"
"They're bad."
"Ok. Cool."
His response is perfect. The best answer you can give faux rage is a non-answer. It's certainly even more than it deserves.
"Why are your characters bad?"
"Oh? We like our characters! They're cool!"
"They're bad."
"Ok. Cool."
His response is perfect. The best answer you can give faux rage is a non-answer. It's certainly even more than it deserves.
No. The objectification of women happens a lot more in video games. Core video games are consumed primarily by (young) men. If I'm trying to sell my product to a group of (young) men, why would I objectify them when most of them are interested in women? Men are objectified in media/products that target women. They are not objectified the same way because what gets goose going isn't the same as what gets the gander hot and bothered.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
"Attention horny males, we have sexy female in this game"
I don't see what's wrong with that, if sexualizing their characters will bring more income for the company, why should they throw money in the drain? As long as it is legal and bring in money, people will do it, and continue to do so.
The fault lies with the buyers, not developer.
People should just propose a law to ban sexualization of both male and female in all medium, game developers do not deserve this special treatment.
I don't see what's wrong with that, if sexualizing their characters will bring more income for the company, why should they throw money in the drain? As long as it is legal and bring in money, people will do it, and continue to do so.
The fault lies with the buyers, not developer.
People should just propose a law to ban sexualization of both male and female in all medium, game developers do not deserve this special treatment.