Horatius
Member
yes thank you, nailed it, obsidian was at fault for all those half-cooked wastes of my time
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Rumor from Chris Avellone: Avowed has already lost multiple lead devs/designers
- Thread starter Defrop
- Start date
JerryinSoCal
Member
Bad management at an xbox first party studio? you don't say lol. Most of the studios they bought were smaller and struggling in some form so this is no shock, this one though was supposed to be one of the good ones wasn't it?
Flutta
Banned
Thanks for the reply. I might check it out on PC one day.
I've seen some gameplay vids on it, and it's a slow burn for my taste. its a sim after all. Looks beautiful tho.
JerryinSoCal
Member
People need to remember that sometimes the higher ups have to step in because people too close to the project just aren't willing to do what it takes to get things going. MS isn't too hands on or hands off they are just not good at management. Look how many games last gen were announced and cancelled both 1st party and exclusives that they outsourced, other games were announced and took 5 years of development hell only to be panned by critics and players alike. There is a reason MS went through all of last gen without creating a new first party hit. They haven't come up with anything new that caught on in the AAA space since Forza Horizon on the 360.
This is true, but is also undeniable he has been very salty since his departure, and that was before Obsidian got aquired by MS. For me, Obsidian is Obsidian, i don't really care if they switch people around, they always had problems with organization, deadlines etc.
It's kind of weird to see people immediately jumping to blame MS for those problems or that he is a sign of something really bad going on. LEt's just wait for the game and that's it, no reason to be all "concerned" about something many here wouldn't buy in the 1st place. Kind like when xbox fanboys get all "concerned" about what's going on at ND.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Miss me with that bullshit.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
so...5 pages in...any proof of this outside of his messages?
No evidence at all?
No evidence at all?
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Its nothing more than that Chris Parker-Carrie Patel theory from rpg codex. No actual project lead has left Obsidian. But it gives some fodder to people like
Defrop
for console warring.
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Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
That was a unfortunate situation and I did forget that it happened though he's not the only one who has already went back to work for Sony
Rikkori
Member
Not sure why people are expecting such great things from Obsidian, PoEs were pretty meh and TOW was painfully mediocre and bland. The golden days of KotOR 2 have long since passed, no different than what happened with Bioware (tho that was a much worse fall). Not to say Avowed can't turn out to be a good game but I don't see why you'd assume it. I hope I'll be pleasantly surprised but I don't expect it.
Zathalus
Member
Dude has been tweeting that Obsidian is a mess since 2018. Yet they somehow managed to release 88 and 85 metacritic rated games:
www.metacritic.com
www.metacritic.com
He obviously has a grind to gear with them since parting ways (which apparently was not on the best of terms).
The Outer Worlds
The Outer Worlds is a new single-player first-person sci-fi RPG from Obsidian Entertainment and Private Division. Lost in transit while on a colonist ship bound for the furthest edge of the galaxy, you awake decades later only to find yourself in the midst of a deep conspiracy threatening to...
www.metacritic.com
Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire
Pursue a rogue god over land and sea in the sequel to the multi-award-winning RPG Pillars of eternity. Captain your ship on a dangerous voyage of discovery across the vast unexplored archipelago region of the dead Fire. Bend the world to your will, as you explore the depths of Infinite...
www.metacritic.com
He obviously has a grind to gear with them since parting ways (which apparently was not on the best of terms).
Example?
Because i can show you many more devs who went from Sony's first party to Microsoft's then otherwise.
Also, Naughty Dog is notorious for having exoduses after bonus paychecks for every project. After Uncharted 4 14 out of 20 level designers left studio. And nobody is making big deal about that.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
What was "expected" of Obsidian?
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
How many went from a Sony studio to Xbox maybe 7 - 8? I know of 3 that are back working for PS and 1 elsewhere
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I counted 10 only in The Initiative that are still there. Many more switched to inXile, ZeniMax Online and even Obsidian or Double Fine. I mean, it's obvious, since all of them are packed in the same area.
So yeah. No exodus. Just natural moving up and down.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
So guys, I did a little bit of research to verify these claims, as best as I could. Of course, I couldn't find everything, but from what little I found, I did notice that there was a bit of an exodus from March to June 2021. Several leads left Obsidian.
This is not uncommon when big projects finish, but not common when multiple big projects are mid-development (OW2, Josh's new game, and, of course, Avowed). I think this corroborates what Chris said (despite the grudge he may hold against Obsidian). I hope these problems, if true, do not affect the end-product, and we all get a good, polished game to play in the end.
This is not uncommon when big projects finish, but not common when multiple big projects are mid-development (OW2, Josh's new game, and, of course, Avowed). I think this corroborates what Chris said (despite the grudge he may hold against Obsidian). I hope these problems, if true, do not affect the end-product, and we all get a good, polished game to play in the end.
- Jorge Salgado, the Lead Area Designer, left Obsidian in May 2021 and joined High Moon Studios.
- Lucien Soulban, the Lead Narrative Designer, left Obsidian in April 2021.
- Justin E. Bell, the Studio Audio Director, left Obsidian in June 2021 to join PlayStation Studios.
- Doug Avery, Senior Quality Assurance Analyst, left Obsidian in April 2021.
- Renzo G. Heredia, Sound Designer and Senior Audio QA Analyst, left Obsidian in Oct. 2020 to join Sony Santa Monica
- KyungKun Ko, Senior Network Engineer, left Obsidian in March 2021.
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nightmare-slain
Member
MS are obviously doomed. Why can't they make a video game?
/s
/s
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I also counted from The Initiative. 3 devs gone back to Sony before the The Initiative's 1st game ships isn't too alarming but it still makes you wonder
nightmare-slain
Member
People are still stuck up on KOTOR2 and Fallout New Vegas. Any day now we'll get New Vegas 2. Not hating on Obsidian they still make fairly good games but I think people are getting a bit too excited.
It's the same situation with the likes of Blizzard/Bungie. They are only Blizzard/Bungie in name. Blizzard ain't gonna put out another game like Diablo 2 (resurrected doesn't count) or the magic that early WoW had. Bungie ain't gonna reach the heights of Halo 1, 2, 3, Reach. Obsidian ain't gonna go back to the KOTOR2/New Vegas days.
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Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
So out of the devs who left PS (8 - 10) to go work for Xbox, 3 came back to PS and 2 devs left Xbox to work for PS. It's just interesting to see how these guys move from one studio to competing studios
Papacheeks
Banned
I mean on average I think Microsoft pays more, like a lot more. But seeing how the studios are managed might be the bigger issue why people leave projects/studios after only being there a little while. I mean it could be they were contracted for specific work that is a thing. But like Heisenberg007 said leaving mid production of two projects like Avowed and OW2 seems weird to me. Especially since a lot of these positions seem like senior positions for their respective departments.
GHG
Gold Member
And that hypocrisy doesn't apply to things being said about Avellone throughout this thread because... Reasons I guess?
If you want to talk about what era does then character assassination is top of their list, especially when it involves using unproven accusations to discredit them, bonus points for when you can throw something like sexual harassment into the ring.
But yes, poor Microsoft, because being critical of companies is something that is definitely exclusive to resetera, we don't do that here.
The thing is, making it personal with him doesn't prove or disprove anything he's said here.
If people are going to put energy towards this then it should be used to uncover the truth and understand whether what he's said can be verified. That's far more valuable to the discussion at hand rather than exhausting post character limits with long-lists of unrelated things he's previously said.
Jumping to blame Microsoft when we don't know whether it's true or the details surrounding the situation (if it does turn to be true) is wrong, but the way some people are going after Avellone in this thread is abhorrent. To take issue with the former but not the latter speaks volumes.
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Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
How many of these people were working on Avowed?
Woe is me!!!
A QA Analyst left the studio....Obsidian is doomed, doomed I tell you!
jk. I respect all ya'll QA guys, I know some of you are lurking here.
Papacheeks
Banned
big ones are lead narrative director, lead area designer, studio audio director.
Those are the red flags to me. Especially on two titles that will have multiple dialogue options in the game.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
The only big name on that list is Jorge Salgado. My concern increased from 0 to 1 out of 10.
Yeah. Lead Narrative Designer who was at the studio for 1 year. I'm sure he was crucial to whole project
Especially since Avowed is in development from 2018.
Bell (Audio director) publicly said that he finished his Outer World work and he moved on. Especially when Obsidian hired former Gearbox composer Raison Varner in June 2020.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Were they working on Avowed?
Papacheeks
Banned
Dude Justin E. Bell literally worked for Obsidian for over 11 years?
Someone pointed out Justins work was finished, but what I dont understand is justin was with Obsidian for 11 years?
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
I meant for Avowed, afaik he didn't work on the game. Generally speaking though, Justin Bell was big in Obsidian, yes. A lot of Obsidian fans are sad that he left.
SaucyJack
Member
I find this a weird perspective, wanting to absolve the parent of failings in a subsidiary.
MS has owned Obsidian for 3 years and manage it under the umbrella of Xbox Game Studios, MS didn’t just give them a pile of cash and tell them to do whatever they want.
Feargus Urquhart reports to, and is accountable to, Matt Booty. Microsoft might not “interfere” with day to day decision making, especially creative ones, but those decisions will be made within a set of accountabilities set by Microsoft. They will certainly be approving projects and budgets, demanding and reviewing progress against plans, etc.
If a subsidiary of Xbox Games Studios has management failings or fails to deliver on projects then this is the “doing“ of Microsoft and Xbox. It’s their accountability and their oversight.
This is equally true of PlayStation Studios. Management failings and failure to deliver at Evolution, for example, we’re absolutely the “doing” of Sony and PlayStation.
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Yeah I mean this should be verifiable. Have people joined and left or not? If Chris was lying that would be a pretty stupid thing to lie about.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
I agree. If you own a studio (whether you are MS, Sony, Nintendo, Ubi, CDPR, EA, Activision) you are responsible for the good and bad that comes with it. If EA got credit to support Respawn through Star Wars Fallen Order, they also got the (well-deserved) flak for ruining Bioware.
It goes both ways. Interference in day-to-day operations and creative choices =/= managing a studio and ensuring it remains productive, efficient, and effective. These two are completely different things, and finding the right balance is the key.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Already done the hardwork. https://www.neogaf.com/threads/rumo...le-lead-devs-designers.1617263/post-264494107
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
For all we know, all of them were working on Avowed.
The important part is that Chris said key people left and that there are management issues. We disregarded Chris because of his personal grudge. Now we can see that a bunch of key people indeed left (just a few months ago, in fact), which corroborates what Chris was saying. There indeed could be problems with the studio and Avowed (as we have some evidence of that). Or that could be no problem at all (but we don't have any evidence for it yet).
Irobot82
Member
It hurts my soul that Justin Bell left. He made such great music.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
He is excellent! Happy for him though as his current position is well-deserved and a big career move.
Exactly, I don't think Chris is even mentioning the project itself. Somebody suggested working there and he said it's not a good sign that people are leaving. This may be more about the workplace environment not being good rather than the project being in development hell.
Yes, all three. Soulban was hired specifically for Avowed, Jorge Salgado was confirmed Lead Area Designer on the game, and Justin Bell was naturally working on it (as with every other Obsidian title).
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Spitfire098
Member
AJUMP23
Gold Member
Good points. But we still don't know if it is true.
TheSHEEEP
Gold Member
BabyfaceRe
Member
Like cormack12 said, seems a bit vague to cause any worry right now.
The project is clearly very early in development so it's not like its losing 'core' team members right now as a doubt anyone is that integral to the project after a year (maybe 2?) Or development time. If people are leaving for other jobs that's not really a reason to worry. If people are quitting or getting fired, different story.
Sometimes people forget that being a game dev is a job like any other you could be with a company for 5 years but leave for a better opportunity with 2 years left of development on your current project, doesnt necessarily reflect poorly on that project or dev.
Plus MS has infinite money so shouldn't be an issue either way tbh.
The project is clearly very early in development so it's not like its losing 'core' team members right now as a doubt anyone is that integral to the project after a year (maybe 2?) Or development time. If people are leaving for other jobs that's not really a reason to worry. If people are quitting or getting fired, different story.
Sometimes people forget that being a game dev is a job like any other you could be with a company for 5 years but leave for a better opportunity with 2 years left of development on your current project, doesnt necessarily reflect poorly on that project or dev.
Plus MS has infinite money so shouldn't be an issue either way tbh.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
Excellent work. Was looking for some confirmation on who left. That said Jorge Salgado looks to be the only one who will raise some concerns, but the project itself is in early stages. Lucien Soulban only worked for a year, so his work was probably contractual. As for Justin E. Bell, Obsidian has another audio director on Avowed since 2020. He seems to have worked as sound designer on Prey (2006) and Borderlands 3.
The rest don't seem to be much of concern.
They finished wrapping up The Outer Worlds DLC content this march, so that may be a reason.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Lucien Soulban left Obsidian for a no-name studio in his home town, basically right after remote work stopped and office work began. It looks like an entirely personal decision.
KRYPT83
Member
More then likely not, they said Avowed is farther in development then we think wouldn't be surprised if it's a early 23 game
anthony2690
Banned
Believe it or not, you fly aeroplanes...
Whether you like the game/genre or not, I personally don't enjoy the game.
You can't deny how impressive the technology behind the game is.
It is potentially one of the most impressive bits of tech ever, seen in a video game.