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Rumor: Next Xbox To Feature Ray Tracing, 1TB NVMe SSD Storage; DevKit To Release After GDC 2019

Leonidas

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Not as good a baseline as 12 TF, especially as we get far into the 2020s.
Casuals won't care, even in 2025, that their console is running games in 1080p. Only enthusiasts and forum dwellers care about stuff like that.

1080p gaming looks good even on a 4K screen.

the path with one strong machine as base is the best option imo...
That's the best path if you want a single expensive machine. Dual approach seems to be the better thought out option to me.
 

Leonidas

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3x the previous generation performance baseline will be the smallest jump in power the industry has ever been held to.
And the top-end GPU performance from the previous gen will be even smaller. They need 12Tf just for 2x...

At least there will be Ryzen CPU and maybe ray-tracing.
 
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luca_29_bg

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And the top-end GPU performance from the previous gen will be even smaller(Xbox One X at 6 Tflops). They'll need 12 just for 2x...

At least there will be Ryzen CPU and maybe ray-tracing.
Xbox X or ps4 pro don't count. The baseline it's the xbox one and ps4 , games are made for these console in mind since 2013, and scaled up for pc and mid gen refresh,. So it's 1.31 /1.84 compared to 12 teraflops, and it's a huge difference.
 

Leonidas

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Xbox X or ps4 pro don't count. The baseline it's the xbox one and ps4 , games are made for these console in mind since 2013, and scaled up for pc and mid gen refresh,. So it's 1.31 /1.84 compared to 12 teraflops, and it's a huge difference.
Sure they do. They are "4K" machines, like the 10-12 Tflop machines which are coming.

Your argument would only make sense to me if Sony/Microsoft come out with 10-12 Tflop 1080p behemoths, but something tells me that's just not going to happen.
 
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luca_29_bg

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Sure they do. They are "4K" machines, like the 10-12 Tflop machines which are coming.

The new machines are targeting 4K as well. Your argument would only make sense to me if Sony/Microsoft comes out with a 10-12 Tflop 1080p behemoths, but something tells me that's just not going to happen.
Resolution doesn't mean anything, it doesn't count at all because games are made with the baseline in mind, and baseline it's xbox one and ps4 flat. The games are scaled up for the midgen refresh, no games is made exclusively for the pro or the X. A new baseline of 12 teraflops change everything, becase the games will be made from these specs (plus the tremendous difference in cpu power). Ps4 pro and xbox x are just upres console, to run games with higher resolution, and some better effects here and there, no game run only on these machine, again no game it's made only for them, so it should be easy to understand.
 
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ethomaz

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That's the best path if you want a single expensive machine. Dual approach seems to be the better thought out option to me.
It is the best approach to everybody involved.

Devs will not be hold by weak hardware, games will be better and not limited, gamers will get better games to play.
 

GlassAwful

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Xbox X or ps4 pro don't count. The baseline it's the xbox one and ps4 , games are made for these console in mind since 2013, and scaled up for pc and mid gen refresh,. So it's 1.31 /1.84 compared to 12 teraflops, and it's a huge difference.
No its 1.31/1.84 compared to 4. The 12 TF is irrelevant when all games will be designed to run on the 4 TF console... You will get the sa!e games from the baseline at higher res and a couple extra effects maybe.
 

Leonidas

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I probably shouldn't be surprised that simple ideas are challenging for a few to understand on this forum...
 
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luca_29_bg

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No its 1.31/1.84 compared to 4. The 12 TF is irrelevant when all games will be designed to run on the 4 TF console... You will get the sa!e games from the baseline at higher res and a couple extra effects maybe.
We don't know if the games will be made for the 12 tf console and scaled back in resolution for the weaker machine, the cpu is the same, the gpu with 4tf at 1080p should be enough to run the same game with scaled back assets. Like happens on pc from years.

And for now this is just a rumor, no evidence of anything so, we have to wait and see!
 
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ZywyPL

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Resolution doesn't mean anything [...]
It means everything, especially if you want to discuss two SKUs aiming for two different resolutions, which you and many guys here seem not to understand the whole concept. Rendering the same graphics at 4K instead of FHD requires 2-3 times the computing power, depending on how advanced the game is, so OBVIOUSLY (?) the console that aims for 4K has to have that much more powerful GPU to render the same graphics. And vice-versa - the one that aims for 1080p doesn't need to be god knows how powerful. Because what do you expect? That the base model would have 12TF GPU and the 4K a ~30TF one? Not going to happen, the technology is not there, and won't be anytime soon,. I know there are many PC guys lurking in the console threads that would like to get a 2-3k$ PC specs within a 400$ box, but sorry, we can't have a serious discussion if some of you have set yourself for such unrealistic expectations.

I'm personally not even sure if we will see 12TF in the most expensive next-gen console - previous/current gen AMD had ~13,5TF Vega as their most advanced GPU, and the most powerful console didn't even got even half of that (6TF in X1X), and that was the biggest Polaris GPU released at the time, not even PC got a Polaris GPU with so many cores, until 590 arrived somewhere later. And it's no differ this time around - Radeon 7 offers ~14TF, and AMD themselves already stated that this will be their flagship GPU for a while, while Navi is indeed aimed for low-mid end segment, so the question is - how much less powerful Navi will be compared to R7? Because 12TF compared to that big ass, hot, and power hungry GPU which R7 is sounds like a wet dream for me. So I'm very skeptical in terms of next-gen consoles GPU power, at the end of the day Navi will be still GCN based, the next GPU after Navi will be "next-gen" as the roadmap shows,and there's not much more juice that can be squeezed from GCN architecture anymore.

PS. And people need to stop with that "X times" comparisons already, it sure used to be a good marketing/PR thing back in the day, but it simply doesn't hold up nowadays - sure, going from 8GB RAM to 16 would be "just" 2x more, compared to let's say 16x when going from PS2 32MB to PS3 512MB, but I'm more than certain that the developers prefer to gladly take and additional 8GB with open hands as oppose to not even half a gig more. Same for the GPU - 3x seems to be super small jump, but in plain numbers that's an extra 2,7TF of computing power to play with, at the same 1080p resolution, to put into perspective - PS3 to PS4 was a ~1,6TF jump, and some of that power had to go to bum the resolution from 600-720p to FHD, and we all know how great the games look like.

So yeah, 4TF vs 12 seems like a fair and balanced split between FHD and 4K, not so sure about the 12 vs 16GB of RAM tho? Unless the bigger model has some additional GB of low-performance RAM reserved for the OS. OR - if Navi uses HBCC technology that allows to decrease the VRAM usage dramatically., I can see that happening.
 

luca_29_bg

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It means everything, especially if you want to discuss two SKUs aiming for two different resolutions, which you and many guys here seem not to understand the whole concept. Rendering the same graphics at 4K instead of FHD requires 2-3 times the computing power, depending on how advanced the game is, so OBVIOUSLY (?) the console that aims for 4K has to have that much more powerful GPU to render the same graphics. And vice-versa - the one that aims for 1080p doesn't need to be god knows how powerful. Because what do you expect? That the base model would have 12TF GPU and the 4K a ~30TF one? Not going to happen, the technology is not there, and won't be anytime soon,. I know there are many PC guys lurking in the console threads that would like to get a 2-3k$ PC specs within a 400$ box, but sorry, we can't have a serious discussion if some of you have set yourself for such unrealistic expectations.

I'm personally not even sure if we will see 12TF in the most expensive next-gen console - previous/current gen AMD had ~13,5TF Vega as their most advanced GPU, and the most powerful console didn't even got even half of that (6TF in X1X), and that was the biggest Polaris GPU released at the time, not even PC got a Polaris GPU with so many cores, until 590 arrived somewhere later. And it's no differ this time around - Radeon 7 offers ~14TF, and AMD themselves already stated that this will be their flagship GPU for a while, while Navi is indeed aimed for low-mid end segment, so the question is - how much less powerful Navi will be compared to R7? Because 12TF compared to that big ass, hot, and power hungry GPU which R7 is sounds like a wet dream for me. So I'm very skeptical in terms of next-gen consoles GPU power, at the end of the day Navi will be still GCN based, the next GPU after Navi will be "next-gen" as the roadmap shows,and there's not much more juice that can be squeezed from GCN architecture anymore.

PS. And people need to stop with that "X times" comparisons already, it sure used to be a good marketing/PR thing back in the day, but it simply doesn't hold up nowadays - sure, going from 8GB RAM to 16 would be "just" 2x more, compared to let's say 16x when going from PS2 32MB to PS3 512MB, but I'm more than certain that the developers prefer to gladly take and additional 8GB with open hands as oppose to not even half a gig more. Same for the GPU - 3x seems to be super small jump, but in plain numbers that's an extra 2,7TF of computing power to play with, at the same 1080p resolution, to put into perspective - PS3 to PS4 was a ~1,6TF jump, and some of that power had to go to bum the resolution from 600-720p to FHD, and we all know how great the games look like.

So yeah, 4TF vs 12 seems like a fair and balanced split between FHD and 4K, not so sure about the 12 vs 16GB of RAM tho? Unless the bigger model has some additional GB of low-performance RAM reserved for the OS. OR - if Navi uses HBCC technology that allows to decrease the VRAM usage dramatically., I can see that happening.
This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that games are builded for the base console, and not for the midgen refresh, so the difference will be based with the original console, not the upres versions. And absolutely i dont' believe that any game will be 4k native. In any way.
 

ZywyPL

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This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that games are builded for the base console, and not for the midgen refresh, so the difference will be based with the original console, not the upres versions. And absolutely i dont' believe that any game will be 4k native. In any way.
Exactly - games will be written to run on the base models, and the "premium" models will those games them in 4K, and maybe few bumped up effects. This is how it works with X1X and Pro, it seems to be perfectly fine solution for mostly everyone, so I truly believe this is the model MS will take in the next generation - the base 4TF model will boost the graphics from the current 1,3TF X1S in 1080p area, and then the "premium" model will just bump up the resolution to native 4K, and maybe add a few tweaks here and there. I guess we will have to wait and see the end-results, maybe a sneak peek on E3? If the consoles appear to be yet again underwhelming, I will just stick up with my PC and its 15TF GPU and call it a day, all the MS and 3rd party will be available anyway, so I personally won't miss anything, but I do hope the upcoming generation will be where we will finally get a good, balanced systems, that don't beg for help just a day after their release.
 

Leonidas

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Sorry if this ain't bump worthy but looking at this leaked spec and what Sony announced... if you remove a few details you get exactly what Sony announced.

CPU: Custom 8 cores / 16 Threads Zen 2 CPU
GPU: Custom NAVI @12+ teraflops
Memory: 16GB GDDR6
Storage: 1TB NVMe SSD @ 1+GB/s
DirectX Raytracing + MS AI
Interesting stuff. Can't wait to see how this all plays out over the coming year.
 

Omeggos

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I have a suspicion that the cost of next gen is why MS may opt for two models out of the gate. One more inline with the pro or X but cheaper for that reason (I’m thinking between $350 and $400) while the higher end model will range closer to $500+

Because 14tflop with a SSD for $400 by late 2020 doesn’t sound very feasible to me.
 
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Leonidas

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I have a suspicion that the cost of next gen is why MS may opt for two models out of the gate. One more inline with the pro or X but cheaper...
I hope that happens just so my avatar bet with MilkyJoe on the previous page continues :lollipop_smiling_face_eyes:
 
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JLB

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I just cant believe, or understand how next PS and Xbox are coming with 1TB of SSD and be priced around usd400. Are they going to subsidize these boxes like hell, right?
 

Leonidas

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I just cant believe, or understand how next PS and Xbox are coming with 1TB of SSD and be priced around usd400. Are they going to subsidize these boxes like hell, right?
Consensus seems to be $499-$599. That's only a $100 jump over machines that launched this gen. Seems reasonable to me.
 

Mikey Jr.

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I just cant believe, or understand how next PS and Xbox are coming with 1TB of SSD and be priced around usd400. Are they going to subsidize these boxes like hell, right?
It'll be $499.

No fucking way it's $399.

Secondly, Sony is making money from PSN hand over fist. I think PSN alone makes more money than the entirety of Nintendo or something crazy like that lol.

They are probably gonna take a hit in the beginning for sure. These boxes won't be cheap.

But the Playstation brand is massive for Sony. They can not fuck around with it. They have to make something good, and it has to be good out of the gate.

Plus, I guarantee there will be a PS5 pro, which will bolster the hardware when PS5 starts slumping in sales eventually.
 
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Sycomunkee

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Sorry if this ain't bump worthy but looking at this leaked spec and what Sony announced... if you remove a few details you get exactly what Sony announced.



Interesting stuff. Can't wait to see how this all plays out over the coming year.
How much RAM is the PS5 rumored to have at this point?
 

CuNi

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what about on sonys machine
There's exactly two ways this could play out. RT on 2060 levels which are barely noticeable and a internal cache SSD to just buffer your most played game or they sell the console for 599 and at large loss per costumer. Neither of those sounds like a good deal. Amazed that they went for the SSD at all but I still don't believe it's going to be the main storage if they plan on breaking even or not selling at a loss. Raytracing will used to increase some effects but it won't reach 2070 or higher levels or RT power.
 

freakify

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It could come with 1TB HDD or Hybrid Drive but not with SSD. Does not makes any sense if Microsoft wants to keep it under 500$.
 

Sycomunkee

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All the rumors I've seen have omitted that info.
Sadly, Mark Cerny made no mention of RAM in the Wired article.

Guesstimates say anywhere from 16 GB - 32 GB for PS5.
If Sony and MS end up having the same console with minor differences in design, it will be all about the game libraries.
 
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blly155

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i just can't see either PS5/XB2 using just an SSD. personally i'd like to see 2TB be the minimum but they might just go with 1TB and offer higher capacity models later on. that said, SSD is still far more expensive than a HDD.

if the storage is completely SSD then they will be EXPENSIVE and Sony/MS will need to offer a cheaper version. This would mean two models at launch. Standard + Pro/X models. if the storage isn't entirely SSD then the SSD will act as a boot/cache drive for OS installation and caching the most used files/games. That said in hybrid drives the SSD cache is only usually 8-16GB which of course is simply not large enough to install a modern game.

Unless what they do is kinda like what one of the old PS3 models did where they had 12GB flash storage on the motherboard and you could install your own drive. Except this time you'll be able to use both the flash + hdd at the same time. if they do this then the capacity could be <500GB which might let you install a few games onto it. the rest of your games would go on a standard HDD. if the next Xbox has a 1TB nvme drive then it'll likely only be in the most powerful version. the standard model might have 250-500GB nvme....or none at all.
 
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INCUBASE

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i just can't see either PS5/XB2 using just an SSD. personally i'd like to see 2TB be the minimum but they might just go with 1TB and offer higher capacity models later on. that said, SSD is still far more expensive than a HDD.

if the storage is completely SSD then they will be EXPENSIVE and Sony/MS will need to offer a cheaper version. This would mean two models at launch. Standard + Pro/X models. if the storage isn't entirely SSD then the SSD will act as a boot/cache drive for OS installation and caching the most used files/games. That said in hybrid drives the SSD cache is only usually 8-16GB which of course is simply not large enough to install a modern game.

Unless what they do is kinda like what one of the old PS3 models did where they had 12GB flash storage on the motherboard and you could install your own drive. Except this time you'll be able to use both the flash + hdd at the same time. if they do this then the capacity could be <500GB which might let you install a few games onto it. the rest of your games would go on a standard HDD. if the next Xbox has a 1TB nvme drive then it'll likely only be in the most powerful version. the standard model might have 250-500GB nvme....or none at all.

Did they say the SSD will be for caching? Hence why tpsony used the spiderman load to e as an example?
 

Moses85

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I guess the SSD Solution will be an onboard solution. Sony and Microsoft will give players the possibility to use external SSDs from beginning.
 

Dontero

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Or they can go with small SSD like 20GB which costs nothing and traditional HDD.
AMD has build in technology into their new Ryzens where you can use SSD to store most commonly used files.

That technology works more or less like SSHD where most used files are stored on SSD part while stuff you need to load every once in while are on HDD part. Effectively after 3-4 times you load your favorite game you have SSD numbers.

This is the best and cheapest way to get fast loadings right now. Everything else just costs a lot money. No way in hell they will give 1TB or 2TB SSD drive where those costs around console itself.
 

Armorian

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Or they can go with small SSD like 20GB which costs nothing and traditional HDD.
AMD has build in technology into their new Ryzens where you can use SSD to store most commonly used files.

That technology works more or less like SSHD where most used files are stored on SSD part while stuff you need to load every once in while are on HDD part. Effectively after 3-4 times you load your favorite game you have SSD numbers.

This is the best and cheapest way to get fast loadings right now. Everything else just costs a lot money. No way in hell they will give 1TB or 2TB SSD drive where those costs around console itself.
It's possible but that SSD needs to be 60-120GB, NG games will be around that size - in this scenario it could be soldered to MB basically, no need for PCI-e 4 or any of that shit.
 

Dontero

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It's possible but that SSD needs to be 60-120GB, NG games will be around that size - in this scenario it could be soldered to MB basically, no need for PCI-e 4 or any of that shit.
The problem with HDD is IOP not raw bandwidth.
Reading 1000 small 2kb files is light years longer than one taxture packs from game.

So SSHD stores those small often used files to save on IOP.
SSHD drives have 6-8GB SSD part so 20GB would be well above what you need.